---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/07/11: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:55 AM - fly-inn Green NY Sept 9-10 (Tex Mantell) 2. 04:10 AM - Re: Thunder Aviation Engines (rawheels) 3. 04:50 AM - Re: Re: Jammed engine (Catz631@aol.com) 4. 06:11 AM - Re: fly-inn Green NY Sept 9-10 (Dorsal) 5. 10:15 AM - Re: Thunder Aviation Engines (Mnflyer) 6. 10:15 AM - sticking valves (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 7. 02:40 PM - Re: sticking valves (Lowell Fitt) 8. 02:58 PM - Finally "getting it" (Dave) 9. 04:00 PM - Re: Re: Jammed engine (b d) 10. 04:30 PM - !Re: Finally "getting it" (Vic Baker) 11. 05:36 PM - Re: Finally "getting it" (Guy Buchanan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:55:05 AM PST US From: "Tex Mantell" Subject: Kitfox-List: fly-inn Green NY Sept 9-10 Is there any update on this?. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:10:33 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Thunder Aviation Engines From: "rawheels" The owner says he has sold two that have been put on Kitfox aircraft. One model had to add a bump in the cowl due to how tall the engine is, but the other model didn't. Seems like a good idea; uses the same mounts as the 582, fuel injection, 4-stroke, easy parts availability (Ford), etc. I guess the engine has been in the works for a long time under the Motavia name. They had a lot of business related issues, and made a lot of customers mad. This guy purchased the rights to the engine earlier this year and has already sold quite a few engines. -------- Ryan Wheeler Kitfox IV-1200 Indianapolis, IN Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351642#351642 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:29 AM PST US From: Catz631@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Jammed engine Bruce, Lowell is right on the mark with his explanation of the hydraulic lock that can occur with the 912. It is taught in Lockwoods 912 service class when reviewing the oil system. This is one of the two reasons you "burp" the engine .(ie: check for hydraulic lock) The other is to check the oil level. It is the nature of the engine depending on the oil tank location and I dare say would occur with a Continental engine,as an example, if you could put the oil tank in a high position. Radial engines were /are prone to this same condition. I have never had a hydraulic lock in my 912 BUT as I have a high oil tank I always expect it. I have let the engine sit for a month and there will be no oil on the dip stick but again,no hydraulic lock. I am going to try the new oil filter to see if it will stop the siphoning as it is suppose to. However it is a little longer and I have very little clearance on my exhaust pipe when removing/installing so I hope it will fit ! Dick Maddux Fox 4 Milton,Fl ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:09 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: fly-inn Green NY Sept 9-10 From: "Dorsal" Yes, this is happening and it looks like the weather might cooperate. The basic plan is to arrive Saturday for a lunch cookout (burgers and dogs), general socializing on all things Kitfox, an afternoon flight to Skyhaven, evening campfire and a breakfast flight in the morning. Please post any questions here or TKF or send me a PM. As an aside I will be brining a Dynavibe and a Carbmate for anyone who wants to use them. -------- Dorsal Series 7 Flying 912S Warp Drive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351650#351650 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:54 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Thunder Aviation Engines From: "Mnflyer" I thought it looked like the Motavia engine and yep they were trying to get the engine going about 15 yrs ago and they had lots of customers PO'd. I guess a plus it the engine mount would sure make it simple to install as far as the mount only time will tell if its a viable product. GB in MN -------- GB MNFlyer Flying a HKS Kitfox III Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351669#351669 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:54 AM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: Kitfox-List: sticking valves Reading all of the comments regarding stuck engine prompted me to report on the sticking valves.=C2- Could not find anything in the mainenance manua l for the 912, but have not attended the class either.=C2- It is on my bu cket list. Relying on the suggestions from Lowell and others a systematic approach bas ed on others past experience Marvel Miracle Oil was added to the oil follow ing an oil change.=C2- The condition of a single valve sticking on startu p additional valves began sticking.=C2- The problem became progressively worse until the point of the propeller spinning like a turbine.=C2- Obvio usly the problem was acute rather than chronic. The initial assumption by many was that it was the exhaust valves sticking due to carbon or some other build up. After removing the rocker arm covers and pulling the propeller through it w as determined that it was the intake valves that were not returning to seat .=C2- Because of the sudden appearance of the problem and its quick escal ation it is likely that bad fuel was introduced at the last gas up (Phillip 66, medium grade, no ethanol). My go to A&P, test pilot, and guru of all things aviation related suggested a slug of Techron in the gas up to double the recommended mix.=C2- But t o solve the immediate problem of no compression the valve stems were slathe red with carburetor cleaner and then the valves were "staked" (repeated imp acts allowing the valves to reseat). Compression, weak, was obtained in two or three of the cylinders then the engine started.=C2- The balky cylinde rs soon came on line and the engine was run for 30 minutes at medium rpm. =C2- The engine was then allowed to cool and 10 gallons of Supreme Chevro n with techron was added to the tanks.=C2- The engine fired right up and the plane was flown for an additional 1/2 hour. After sitting for 2 days the engine had good compression and started immedi ately, running on all 4.=C2- A 30 minute flight showed excellent performa nce and indicates that the problem is solved. There are bound to be second guesser out there who would have suggested a d ifferent approach but each step was thoughtfully approached with knowledgea ble advise based on the currently available information with each step lead ing closer to the solution. John Kerr Classic IV, 912ul, 800+ hours ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:40:14 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: sticking valves John, I guess I have to be a bit more careful when I post. The ATF we used instead of the unavailable Marvel Mystery oil was put into the fuel tanks - a quart each wing. The guess at least, was correct as our treatment focused on the intake valves. Your thorough diagnostics is very helpful. Thanks, Lowell From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 10:11 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: sticking valves Reading all of the comments regarding stuck engine prompted me to report on the sticking valves. Could not find anything in the mainenance manual for the 912, but have not attended the class either. It is on my bucket list. Relying on the suggestions from Lowell and others a systematic approach based on others past experience Marvel Miracle Oil was added to the oil following an oil change. The condition of a single valve sticking on startup additional valves began sticking. The problem became progressively worse until the point of the propeller spinning like a turbine. Obviously the problem was acute rather than chronic. The initial assumption by many was that it was the exhaust valves sticking due to carbon or some other build up. After removing the rocker arm covers and pulling the propeller through it was determined that it was the intake valves that were not returning to seat. Because of the sudden appearance of the problem and its quick escalation it is likely that bad fuel was introduced at the last gas up (Phillip 66, medium grade, no ethanol). My go to A&P, test pilot, and guru of all things aviation related suggested a slug of Techron in the gas up to double the recommended mix. But to solve the immediate problem of no compression the valve stems were slathered with carburetor cleaner and then the valves were "staked" (repeated impacts allowing the valves to reseat). Compression, weak, was obtained in two or three of the cylinders then the engine started. The balky cylinders soon came on line and the engine was run for 30 minutes at medium rpm. The engine was then allowed to cool and 10 gallons of Supreme Chevron with techron was added to the tanks. The engine fired right up and the plane was flown for an additional 1/2 hour. After sitting for 2 days the engine had good compression and started immediately, running on all 4. A 30 minute flight showed excellent performance and indicates that the problem is solved. There are bound to be second guesser out there who would have suggested a different approach but each step was thoughtfully approached with knowledgeable advise based on the currently available information with each step leading closer to the solution. John Kerr Classic IV, 912ul, 800+ hours 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:58:45 PM PST US From: "Dave " Subject: Kitfox-List: Finally "getting it" Well ok, despite no issues, the jury is still out on the 582 as far as I'm concerned! To be comfortable I would need to take the EGT out and takes me chances. As long as that gauge is there I will worry about it, especially in an unloaded level cruise when it starts to rise a little. On the other hand I think I am "over the hump" on tailwheel handling. While many have no problem it was hard for me to master the art of the tailwheel. It bit once and may again but it is obeying most commands at this point. The secret for me was ditching my size 11 leather shoes and flying in sock feet! It was recommended earlier and I thought whoever suggested it was nuts! My feet fit the small pedals so much easier and I am less likely to push both at the same time. I also have to reach for the brakes, I may have been on them by accident earlier. Nice to pass on some good news. I thought I would never "get it" on the tailwheel! Dave G. Nova Scotia, KF IV 1050 582 Warp TT ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:00:18 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Jammed engine From: b d Thank you young man, I have no clue what conversation you are referring to because there is no reference. I may agree with Mr. Lowell too if I only knew what this is about. With that said, I do appreciate your perception and loyalty. Your vote is so noted for whatever that is worth. ;*-)* Bruce Seasoned A&P ex-military, pilot, flight engineer, GA and Commercial Airlines (not limited to light sport). . . . and old, grouchy and not PC. "Been there and done it and don't have to vote on it!" On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Roger Lee wrote: > > Hi Bruce, > > What Lowell said. He is spot on. > > -------- > Roger Lee > Tucson, Az. > Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated > Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated > Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST > Cell 520-349-7056 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351631#351631 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:30:21 PM PST US From: "Vic Baker" Subject: !Re: Kitfox-List: Finally "getting it" Same problem here with my #13's. Got a pair of moccasin's, these work great! How-some-ever I always throw my shoes in the back just in case a hike back to the airport from a distant field is needed..... Vic Baker S7 912S Warp Carson City, Nv ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave " Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 2:55 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Finally "getting it" > > > Well ok, despite no issues, the jury is still out on the 582 as far as I'm > concerned! To be comfortable I would need to take the EGT out and takes me > chances. As long as that gauge is there I will worry about it, especially > in > an unloaded level cruise when it starts to rise a little. > > On the other hand I think I am "over the hump" on tailwheel handling. > While > many have no problem it was hard for me to master the art of the > tailwheel. > It bit once and may again but it is obeying most commands at this point. > The > secret for me was ditching my size 11 leather shoes and flying in sock > feet! > It was recommended earlier and I thought whoever suggested it was nuts! My > feet fit the small pedals so much easier and I am less likely to push both > at the same time. I also have to reach for the brakes, I may have been on > them by accident earlier. > > Nice to pass on some good news. I thought I would never "get it" on the > tailwheel! > > Dave G. Nova Scotia, KF IV 1050 582 Warp TT > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:47 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Finally "getting it" On 9/7/2011 2:55 PM, Dave wrote: > Well ok, despite no issues, the jury is still out on the 582 as far as I'm > concerned! To be comfortable I would need to take the EGT out and takes me > chances. As long as that gauge is there I will worry about it, especially in > an unloaded level cruise when it starts to rise a little. > OK. Here's my (big bucks) solution to the EGT issue. Go buy and install a GRT EIS 2002 at $503. Better yet, find a used one from some idiot that's upgrading their motor (me) or avionics. Then install the Green Sky Avionics HACman mixture control system. ($187) I ran these for 514 hours and about five years and loved my 582. I had a big (3/4") red light right in front of my eyes that would light every time the EIS would go over limit and I'd check the numbers, figure what was wrong, and fix it. It made EGT management simple. Red light goes on: EGT high: either shove throttle in or pull it out, depending on what you're doing next. Simple. I know it sounds like a lot of money, but it was seriously worth the piece-of-mind. (It also makes your engine last a lot longer by warning you of those other pesky problems like excessive RPM, CHT, and water temp, all of which I saw from time to time.) The HACman simply gives you the ability to do something about the EGT. EGT too high? Richen mixture. I routinely leaned at altitude and then automatically richened before pulling the throttle back for descent. Once full rich I had wide latitude with the throttle without having to worry about EGT. (The HACman was worth about 80F on the EGT.) > On the other hand I think I am "over the hump" on tailwheel handling. While > many have no problem it was hard for me to master the art of the tailwheel. > It bit once and may again but it is obeying most commands at this point. The > secret for me was ditching my size 11 leather shoes and flying in sock feet! > It was recommended earlier and I thought whoever suggested it was nuts! My > feet fit the small pedals so much easier and I am less likely to push both > at the same time. I also have to reach for the brakes, I may have been on > them by accident earlier. > Glad to hear it. Now you'll only get better. Remember, "happy feet". Guy Buchanan Ramona, CA Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.