Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:29 AM - Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location (kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com)
2. 08:21 AM - Re: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
3. 09:42 AM - Re: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location (Guy Buchanan)
4. 09:52 AM - Re: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location (kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com)
5. 10:06 AM - Re: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location (Guy Buchanan)
6. 10:45 AM - Re: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
7. 12:55 PM - Re: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location (kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header |
tank location
Had someone have me take a look at his KF3. He recently had a dead stick
landing. Only damage was a broken prop but now he only flies high and
over his home field as he does not trust the plane.
He is putting this down to bad fuel, as it happened right after he
switched tanks. Problem is with a new prop the airplane started and ran
fine on the ground after the incident.
I was looking at the fuel system, and I noted that the header tank is
mounted on the tube structure near the back of the seat. It is a plastic
tank, and looks to me like the bottom is almost at the floor level. In my
KFIV I do not run a 582..I have a 912s, but the header tank is mounted
high up behind the baggage area.
Is a header tank not supposed to provide a head of fuel to the engine? How
could it do that if it was mounted below the level of the carbs?
Wanted to ask those out there more in the know on the two stroke setups.
Gary Walsh
KF IV Anphib 912S
C-GOOT
www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on |
header tank location
fluid physics would suggest that the head pressure is determined by the fue
l level, not the header tank position.=C2- Likely no the cause of the eng
ine out.
John Kerr
----- Original Message -----
From: kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 7:27:41 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on h
eader tank location
Had someone have me take a look at his KF3. =C2-He recently had a dead st
ick landing. =C2-Only damage was a broken prop but now he only flies high
and over his home field as he does not trust the plane.
He is putting this down to bad fuel, as it happened right after he switched
tanks. =C2-Problem is with a new prop the airplane started and ran fine
on the ground after the incident.
I was looking at the fuel system, and I noted that the header tank is mount
ed on the tube structure near the back of the seat. It is a plastic tank, a
nd looks to me like the bottom is =C2-almost at the floor level. In my KF
IV I do not run a 582..I have a 912s, but the header tank is mounted high u
p behind the baggage area.
Is a header tank not supposed to provide a head of fuel to the engine? =C2
-How could it do that if it was mounted below the level of the carbs?
Wanted to ask those out there more in the know on the two stroke setups.
Gary Walsh
KF IV =C2-Anphib 912S
C-GOOT
www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
do not archive
==
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on |
header tank location
Really doesn't matter whether 582 or 912. They broth run mechanical fuel
pumps, albeit powered differently. The header tank height only becomes
relevant when fuel level drops below the level of the engine, i.e. the
wing tanks are empty. Then head pressure will reduce, even to negative,
as the fuel level drops below the level of the engine. The 582 pump
handles this fine, (tested on several occasions, both on the ground and
in the air, yikes!) I even did the test where you empty the wing tanks,
jack the mains up 12", and run full power for 20 minutes. Worked fine
/with my system/.
There are, of course, a zillion possibilities, almost all rehashed in
the archives, from bad fuel system design to the notoriously cloggy
"glass" filters frequently found between wing and header tanks.
(Personal experience with these.) Got to start at one end and go to the
other, starting at clogged cap vents, working through clogged finger
strainers due to flaking Kreem, on to swelling lines due to auto fuel,
noting any line loops that might vapor lock, checking filters for flow,
checking the header tank vent line for vapor locked line loops and
closure, any broken valves, and finally the fuel pump itself. Is it
weak? Do you have the heavy duty wall thickness pulse line? Is the pulse
line too long?
Time to spend some quality time with his aircraft.
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
Now a glider pilot, too.
On 6/25/2012 6:27 AM, kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com wrote:
> I was looking at the fuel system, and I noted that the header tank is
> mounted on the tube structure near the back of the seat. It is a
> plastic tank, and looks to me like the bottom is almost at the floor
> level. In my KFIV I do not run a 582..I have a 912s, but the header
> tank is mounted high up behind the baggage area.
>
> Is a header tank not supposed to provide a head of fuel to the engine?
> How could it do that if it was mounted below the level of the carbs?
>
> Wanted to ask those out there more in the know on the two stroke setups.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on |
header tank location
Thanks Guy
Not sure what you mean by the heavy duty pulse line. Again...not my
airplane. From what I could see all the fuel lines are clear
plastic...except the lines that go under the seat.
The airplane has flown for several hours since the engine failure. All
of it over the home strip. Maybe it actually was bad gas.
I will pass along your feedback.
Gary Walsh
KF IV Anphib 912S
C-GOOT
www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
do not archive
Guy Buchanan <gebuchanan@cox.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
06/25/2012 12:41 PM
Please respond to kitfox-list
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
cc:
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Engine out..deadstick landing
required..question on header tank location
Really doesn't matter whether 582 or 912. They broth run mechanical fuel
pumps, albeit powered differently. The header tank height only becomes
relevant when fuel level drops below the level of the engine, i.e. the
wing tanks are empty. Then head pressure will reduce, even to negative, as
the fuel level drops below the level of the engine. The 582 pump handles
this fine, (tested on several occasions, both on the ground and in the
air, yikes!) I even did the test where you empty the wing tanks, jack the
mains up 12", and run full power for 20 minutes. Worked fine with my
system.
There are, of course, a zillion possibilities, almost all rehashed in the
archives, from bad fuel system design to the notoriously cloggy "glass"
filters frequently found between wing and header tanks. (Personal
experience with these.) Got to start at one end and go to the other,
starting at clogged cap vents, working through clogged finger strainers
due to flaking Kreem, on to swelling lines due to auto fuel, noting any
line loops that might vapor lock, checking filters for flow, checking the
header tank vent line for vapor locked line loops and closure, any broken
valves, and finally the fuel pump itself. Is it weak? Do you have the
heavy duty wall thickness pulse line? Is the pulse line too long?
Time to spend some quality time with his aircraft.
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
Now a glider pilot, too.
On 6/25/2012 6:27 AM, kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com wrote:
I was looking at the fuel system, and I noted that the header tank is
mounted on the tube structure near the back of the seat. It is a plastic
tank, and looks to me like the bottom is almost at the floor level. In my
KFIV I do not run a 582..I have a 912s, but the header tank is mounted
high up behind the baggage area.
Is a header tank not supposed to provide a head of fuel to the engine? How
could it do that if it was mounted below the level of the carbs?
Wanted to ask those out there more in the know on the two stroke setups.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on |
header tank location
On 6/25/2012 9:51 AM, kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com wrote:
> The airplane has flown for several hours since the engine failure.
> All of it over the home strip. Maybe it actually was bad gas.
Can't imagine "bad gas". Water, yes. Sediment, unlikely. Since it
happened when he switched tanks he could still be feeding off the "good"
full tank, though I would hope he's seeing flow in both tanks as he
flies, or maybe is switching back and forth between tanks.
The pulse line is not your typical plastic tube. Most 1/4" fuel line has
a wall about 3/32" thick. Pulse line has about an 1/8" plus wall
thickness. The thin line dampens the pulses, weakening the fuel pump action.
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
Now a glider pilot, too.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on |
header tank location
Normal fuel line design does not have the ability to switch tanks.=C2- An
individually designed system does not benefit from the experience of thous
ands of Kitfoxes out there.=C2- Some have tried to eliminate "one tank lo
w" but there is little evidence of anyone actually experiencing fuel starva
tion with the standard arrangement.=C2- There have been reports of starva
tion when tanks are individually controlled.
Good luck.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Buchanan" <gebuchanan@cox.net>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 11:06:10 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question
=C2- on =C2-header tank location
On 6/25/2012 9:51 AM, kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com wrote:
The airplane has flown for several hours since the engine failure. =C2- A
ll of it over the home strip. =C2- Maybe it actually was bad gas.
Can't imagine "bad gas". Water, yes. Sediment, unlikely. Since it happened
when he switched tanks he could still be feeding off the "good" full tank,
though I would hope he's seeing flow in both tanks as he flies, or maybe is
switching back and forth between tanks.
The pulse line is not your typical plastic tube. Most 1/4" fuel line has a
wall about 3/32" thick. Pulse line has about an 1/8" plus wall thickness. T
he thin line dampens the pulses, weakening the fuel pump action.
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
Now a glider pilot, too.
==
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on |
header tank location
To say this is a KF 3 is a bit of a stretch. Looks to me like a cobble
together bag of Kitfox parts.
Fuel system is definitely non-standard.
Thx for the info.
Gary Walsh
KF IV Anphib 912S
C-GOOT
www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
do not archive
kerrjohna@comcast.net
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
06/25/2012 01:44 PM
Please respond to kitfox-list
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
cc:
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Engine out..deadstick landing
required..question on header tank location
Normal fuel line design does not have the ability to switch tanks. An
individually designed system does not benefit from the experience of
thousands of Kitfoxes out there. Some have tried to eliminate "one tank
low" but there is little evidence of anyone actually experiencing fuel
starvation with the standard arrangement. There have been reports of
starvation when tanks are individually controlled.
Good luck.
John
From: "Guy Buchanan" <gebuchanan@cox.net>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 11:06:10 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question
on header tank location
On 6/25/2012 9:51 AM, kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com wrote:
The airplane has flown for several hours since the engine failure. All
of it over the home strip. Maybe it actually was bad gas.
Can't imagine "bad gas". Water, yes. Sediment, unlikely. Since it happened
when he switched tanks he could still be feeding off the "good" full tank,
though I would hope he's seeing flow in both tanks as he flies, or maybe
is switching back and forth between tanks.
The pulse line is not your typical plastic tube. Most 1/4" fuel line has a
wall about 3/32" thick. Pulse line has about an 1/8" plus wall thickness.
The thin line dampens the pulses, weakening the fuel pump action.
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
Now a glider pilot, too.
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