---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 06/25/12: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:29 AM - Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location (kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com) 2. 08:21 AM - Re: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 3. 09:42 AM - Re: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location (Guy Buchanan) 4. 09:52 AM - Re: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location (kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com) 5. 10:06 AM - Re: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location (Guy Buchanan) 6. 10:45 AM - Re: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 7. 12:55 PM - Re: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location (kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:25 AM PST US From: kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location Had someone have me take a look at his KF3. He recently had a dead stick landing. Only damage was a broken prop but now he only flies high and over his home field as he does not trust the plane. He is putting this down to bad fuel, as it happened right after he switched tanks. Problem is with a new prop the airplane started and ran fine on the ground after the incident. I was looking at the fuel system, and I noted that the header tank is mounted on the tube structure near the back of the seat. It is a plastic tank, and looks to me like the bottom is almost at the floor level. In my KFIV I do not run a 582..I have a 912s, but the header tank is mounted high up behind the baggage area. Is a header tank not supposed to provide a head of fuel to the engine? How could it do that if it was mounted below the level of the carbs? Wanted to ask those out there more in the know on the two stroke setups. Gary Walsh KF IV Anphib 912S C-GOOT www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:21:17 AM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location fluid physics would suggest that the head pressure is determined by the fue l level, not the header tank position.=C2- Likely no the cause of the eng ine out. John Kerr ----- Original Message ----- From: kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 7:27:41 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on h eader tank location Had someone have me take a look at his KF3. =C2-He recently had a dead st ick landing. =C2-Only damage was a broken prop but now he only flies high and over his home field as he does not trust the plane. He is putting this down to bad fuel, as it happened right after he switched tanks. =C2-Problem is with a new prop the airplane started and ran fine on the ground after the incident. I was looking at the fuel system, and I noted that the header tank is mount ed on the tube structure near the back of the seat. It is a plastic tank, a nd looks to me like the bottom is =C2-almost at the floor level. In my KF IV I do not run a 582..I have a 912s, but the header tank is mounted high u p behind the baggage area. Is a header tank not supposed to provide a head of fuel to the engine? =C2 -How could it do that if it was mounted below the level of the carbs? Wanted to ask those out there more in the know on the two stroke setups. Gary Walsh KF IV =C2-Anphib 912S C-GOOT www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox do not archive == ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:33 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location Really doesn't matter whether 582 or 912. They broth run mechanical fuel pumps, albeit powered differently. The header tank height only becomes relevant when fuel level drops below the level of the engine, i.e. the wing tanks are empty. Then head pressure will reduce, even to negative, as the fuel level drops below the level of the engine. The 582 pump handles this fine, (tested on several occasions, both on the ground and in the air, yikes!) I even did the test where you empty the wing tanks, jack the mains up 12", and run full power for 20 minutes. Worked fine /with my system/. There are, of course, a zillion possibilities, almost all rehashed in the archives, from bad fuel system design to the notoriously cloggy "glass" filters frequently found between wing and header tanks. (Personal experience with these.) Got to start at one end and go to the other, starting at clogged cap vents, working through clogged finger strainers due to flaking Kreem, on to swelling lines due to auto fuel, noting any line loops that might vapor lock, checking filters for flow, checking the header tank vent line for vapor locked line loops and closure, any broken valves, and finally the fuel pump itself. Is it weak? Do you have the heavy duty wall thickness pulse line? Is the pulse line too long? Time to spend some quality time with his aircraft. Guy Buchanan Ramona, CA Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded Now a glider pilot, too. On 6/25/2012 6:27 AM, kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com wrote: > I was looking at the fuel system, and I noted that the header tank is > mounted on the tube structure near the back of the seat. It is a > plastic tank, and looks to me like the bottom is almost at the floor > level. In my KFIV I do not run a 582..I have a 912s, but the header > tank is mounted high up behind the baggage area. > > Is a header tank not supposed to provide a head of fuel to the engine? > How could it do that if it was mounted below the level of the carbs? > > Wanted to ask those out there more in the know on the two stroke setups. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:52:30 AM PST US From: kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location Thanks Guy Not sure what you mean by the heavy duty pulse line. Again...not my airplane. From what I could see all the fuel lines are clear plastic...except the lines that go under the seat. The airplane has flown for several hours since the engine failure. All of it over the home strip. Maybe it actually was bad gas. I will pass along your feedback. Gary Walsh KF IV Anphib 912S C-GOOT www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox do not archive Guy Buchanan Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 06/25/2012 12:41 PM Please respond to kitfox-list To: kitfox-list@matronics.com cc: Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location Really doesn't matter whether 582 or 912. They broth run mechanical fuel pumps, albeit powered differently. The header tank height only becomes relevant when fuel level drops below the level of the engine, i.e. the wing tanks are empty. Then head pressure will reduce, even to negative, as the fuel level drops below the level of the engine. The 582 pump handles this fine, (tested on several occasions, both on the ground and in the air, yikes!) I even did the test where you empty the wing tanks, jack the mains up 12", and run full power for 20 minutes. Worked fine with my system. There are, of course, a zillion possibilities, almost all rehashed in the archives, from bad fuel system design to the notoriously cloggy "glass" filters frequently found between wing and header tanks. (Personal experience with these.) Got to start at one end and go to the other, starting at clogged cap vents, working through clogged finger strainers due to flaking Kreem, on to swelling lines due to auto fuel, noting any line loops that might vapor lock, checking filters for flow, checking the header tank vent line for vapor locked line loops and closure, any broken valves, and finally the fuel pump itself. Is it weak? Do you have the heavy duty wall thickness pulse line? Is the pulse line too long? Time to spend some quality time with his aircraft. Guy Buchanan Ramona, CA Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded Now a glider pilot, too. On 6/25/2012 6:27 AM, kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com wrote: I was looking at the fuel system, and I noted that the header tank is mounted on the tube structure near the back of the seat. It is a plastic tank, and looks to me like the bottom is almost at the floor level. In my KFIV I do not run a 582..I have a 912s, but the header tank is mounted high up behind the baggage area. Is a header tank not supposed to provide a head of fuel to the engine? How could it do that if it was mounted below the level of the carbs? Wanted to ask those out there more in the know on the two stroke setups. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:38 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location On 6/25/2012 9:51 AM, kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com wrote: > The airplane has flown for several hours since the engine failure. > All of it over the home strip. Maybe it actually was bad gas. Can't imagine "bad gas". Water, yes. Sediment, unlikely. Since it happened when he switched tanks he could still be feeding off the "good" full tank, though I would hope he's seeing flow in both tanks as he flies, or maybe is switching back and forth between tanks. The pulse line is not your typical plastic tube. Most 1/4" fuel line has a wall about 3/32" thick. Pulse line has about an 1/8" plus wall thickness. The thin line dampens the pulses, weakening the fuel pump action. Guy Buchanan Ramona, CA Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded Now a glider pilot, too. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:45:37 AM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location Normal fuel line design does not have the ability to switch tanks.=C2- An individually designed system does not benefit from the experience of thous ands of Kitfoxes out there.=C2- Some have tried to eliminate "one tank lo w" but there is little evidence of anyone actually experiencing fuel starva tion with the standard arrangement.=C2- There have been reports of starva tion when tanks are individually controlled. Good luck. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Buchanan" Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 11:06:10 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question =C2- on =C2-header tank location On 6/25/2012 9:51 AM, kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com wrote: The airplane has flown for several hours since the engine failure. =C2- A ll of it over the home strip. =C2- Maybe it actually was bad gas. Can't imagine "bad gas". Water, yes. Sediment, unlikely. Since it happened when he switched tanks he could still be feeding off the "good" full tank, though I would hope he's seeing flow in both tanks as he flies, or maybe is switching back and forth between tanks. The pulse line is not your typical plastic tube. Most 1/4" fuel line has a wall about 3/32" thick. Pulse line has about an 1/8" plus wall thickness. T he thin line dampens the pulses, weakening the fuel pump action. Guy Buchanan Ramona, CA Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded Now a glider pilot, too. == ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:55:43 PM PST US From: kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location To say this is a KF 3 is a bit of a stretch. Looks to me like a cobble together bag of Kitfox parts. Fuel system is definitely non-standard. Thx for the info. Gary Walsh KF IV Anphib 912S C-GOOT www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox do not archive kerrjohna@comcast.net Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 06/25/2012 01:44 PM Please respond to kitfox-list To: kitfox-list@matronics.com cc: Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location Normal fuel line design does not have the ability to switch tanks. An individually designed system does not benefit from the experience of thousands of Kitfoxes out there. Some have tried to eliminate "one tank low" but there is little evidence of anyone actually experiencing fuel starvation with the standard arrangement. There have been reports of starvation when tanks are individually controlled. Good luck. John From: "Guy Buchanan" Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 11:06:10 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Engine out..deadstick landing required..question on header tank location On 6/25/2012 9:51 AM, kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com wrote: The airplane has flown for several hours since the engine failure. All of it over the home strip. Maybe it actually was bad gas. Can't imagine "bad gas". Water, yes. Sediment, unlikely. Since it happened when he switched tanks he could still be feeding off the "good" full tank, though I would hope he's seeing flow in both tanks as he flies, or maybe is switching back and forth between tanks. The pulse line is not your typical plastic tube. Most 1/4" fuel line has a wall about 3/32" thick. Pulse line has about an 1/8" plus wall thickness. The thin line dampens the pulses, weakening the fuel pump action. Guy Buchanan Ramona, CA Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded Now a glider pilot, too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.