Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:23 PM - Brain Picking Engine 912 (Lowell Fitt)
2. 12:37 PM - Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 (jareds)
3. 12:56 PM - Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 (Guy Buchanan)
4. 12:58 PM - Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 (Noel R. C. Loveys)
5. 01:17 PM - Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 (Don Hudgeon)
6. 01:28 PM - Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 (rtmarshall)
7. 03:02 PM - Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 (Stan Specht)
8. 04:11 PM - Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 (Lowell Fitt)
9. 04:18 PM - Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 (Tommy Walker)
10. 06:31 PM - Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 (Lowell Fitt)
11. 08:36 PM - Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 (James Shumaker)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Brain Picking Engine 912 |
I need some help. During my 40 hour test phase, I had a three or four
instances where the engine quit at the flare or shortly after touch
down. hearing the engine spin down prompted a throttle input that did
nothing. Re-starting was impossible for the first several minutes. it
happened again yesterday with another airplane nearing downwind in the
pattern. I added a half turn to the idle stop and flew again and this
time, I had trouble losing altitude going around the first time and a
vigorous side slip to get down the second time. Needless to say, I took
the half turn out to get the idle lower for final. I need some wisdom
from the other guys running the 912.
Info - I lightened the throttle springs as many have. I have the
vernier throttle with the typical Model IV bell crank set-up and
typically give it a quarter turn or so to the left to make sure the ball
is in the groove. I have an aux fuel pump - Facet - just down stream
from the header tank and it was on in all instances. My lawn mower does
the exact thing - when dumping the bag, it is very difficult to
re-start, but starts readily after ten minutes or on first start.
Lowell
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 |
My crash was on video unfortunately and i walked away with minor
damage. I'm sure you prob already checked ....but what i found was an o
ring in the fuel line shut off valve had disintegrated and that sliver
was in the carb bowl prior to adding a 3rd filter and only
intermittantly it would suck that sliver into the jet.
On 1/17/2013 2:22 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
> I need some help. During my 40 hour test phase, I had a three or four
> instances where the engine quit at the flare or shortly after touch
> down. hearing the engine spin down prompted a throttle input that did
> nothing. Re-starting was impossible for the first several minutes. it
> happened again yesterday with another airplane nearing downwind in the
> pattern. I added a half turn to the idle stop and flew again and this
> time, I had trouble losing altitude going around the first time and a
> vigorous side slip to get down the second time. Needless to say, I
> took the half turn out to get the idle lower for final. I need some
> wisdom from the other guys running the 912.
> Info - I lightened the throttle springs as many have. 3 I have the
> vernier throttle with the typical Model IV bell crank set-up and
> typically give it a quarter turn or so to the left to make sure the
> ball is in the groove. I have an aux fuel pump - Facet - just down
> stream from the header tank and it was on in all instances. My lawn
> mower does the exact thing - when dumping the bag, it is very
> difficult to re-start, but starts readily after ten minutes or on
> first start.
> Lowell
> *
>
>
> *
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 |
On 1/17/2013 12:22 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
> Re-starting was impossible for the first several minutes.
This symptom brings to mind two possibilities:
1. Engine flooding. Someone already mentioned debris in the carb
leading to excessive fuel. Have you tried simply leaning the idle
jet? I know the 582 was notorious for running rich at idle and I
had the same thing happen once in Idaho, where because of the
altitude the idle was way too rich.
2. Vapor lock. Yours being a new aircraft, it's possible you've got
some part of the fuel system heat soaking and vaporizing. Then you
don't get any fuel until things cool down. You check this by
popping the bowls before re-starting. If they're empty, you might
have a vapor lock somewhere.
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
Now a glider pilot, too.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 |
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 |
Hi Lowell
I wonder why you are running the aux fuel pump? It may be possibly
excessive pressure in the system. Do you have a return line back to the
gascolator or tank? I found that before installing my return line, the
pressure would build up to over 10psi after shut down just from expansion
due the engine heat! This resulted in hard "hot starts" and flooding
Just a few ideas to add to the mix!!
Good luck
Don
On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Guy Buchanan <gebuchanan@cox.net> wrote:
> **
> On 1/17/2013 12:22 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
>
> Re-starting was impossible for the first several minutes.
>
>
> This symptom brings to mind two possibilities:
>
> 1. Engine flooding. Someone already mentioned debris in the carb
> leading to excessive fuel. Have you tried simply leaning the idle jet? I
> know the 582 was notorious for running rich at idle and I had the same
> thing happen once in Idaho, where because of the altitude the idle was way
> too rich.
> 2. Vapor lock. Yours being a new aircraft, it's possible you've got
> some part of the fuel system heat soaking and vaporizing. Then you don't
> get any fuel until things cool down. You check this by popping the bowls
> before re-starting. If they're empty, you might have a vapor lock somewhere.
>
> Guy Buchanan
> Ramona, CA
> Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
> Now a glider pilot, too.
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 |
Hi Lowell, Bob up here in the sierra's, what do you have the idle RPM
set at after it warms up? I use around 1600 to 1800 and with the wood 3
Blade, it to wants to float a bit until I get the A/S below fifty or so,
I think that the clutch set up that a few people use eliminates that
float being caused by excess thrust at Idle. I do know that this little
ship will keep you honest in you flying skills dept. Bob
From: Noel R. C. Loveys
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 12:57 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Brain Picking Engine 912
Lowell this sounds like a problem of to much fuel. It sounds like the
engine is flooding when you pull back the throttle. If you have plenty
of room try turning off the aux pump before landing or tie the tail down
and do a mock circuit and see if the engine still stalls a few minutes
after pulling back the throttle.
Noel
Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I need some help. During my 40 hour test phase, I had a three or four
instances where the engine quit at the flare or shortly after touch
down. hearing the engine spin down prompted a throttle input that did
nothing. Re-starting was impossible for the first several minutes. it
happened again yesterday with another airplane nearing downwind in the
pattern. I added a half turn to the idle stop and flew again and this
time, I had trouble losing altitude going around the first time and a
vigorous side slip to get down the second time. Needless to say, I took
the half turn out to get the idle lower for final. I need some wisdom
from the other guys running the 912.
Info - I lightened the throttle springs as many have. I have the
vernier throttle with the typical Model IV bell crank set-up and
typically give it a quarter turn or so to the left to make sure the ball
is in the groove. I have an aux fuel pump - Facet - just down stream
from the header tank and it was on in all instances. My lawn mower does
the exact thing - when dumping the bag, it is very difficult to
re-start, but starts readily after ten minutes or on first start.
Lowell
=EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,=03g=EF=BD=EF=BD
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 |
Hi Lowell-
I seem to remember a few years back we were warned not to keep the aircraft
in a too pitch up attitude for very long, as would be the case in flying o
n final. The consequences were that fuel would quit flowing from the tank.
Subsequently, they moved the feed drain or built in a sump in the bottom of
the tank to keep the fuel flowing. Might this be your problem?
Stan Specht
KF IV 912ul 1,937 hrs. and still cookin'
Denver, CO
-----Original Message-----
From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Thu, Jan 17, 2013 1:23 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Brain Picking Engine 912
I need some help. During my 40 hour test phase, I had a three or four inst
ances where the engine quit at the flare or shortly after touch down. hear
ing the engine spin down prompted a throttle input that did nothing. Re-st
arting was impossible for the first several minutes. it happened again yes
terday with another airplane nearing downwind in the pattern. I added a ha
lf turn to the idle stop and flew again and this time, I had trouble losing
altitude going around the first time and a vigorous side slip to get down
the second time. Needless to say, I took the half turn out to get the idle
lower for final. I need some wisdom from the other guys running the 912.
Info - I lightened the throttle springs as many have. I have the vernier t
hrottle with the typical Model IV bell crank set-up and typically give it a
quarter turn or so to the left to make sure the ball is in the groove. I
have an aux fuel pump - Facet - just down stream from the header tank and
it was on in all instances. My lawn mower does the exact thing - when dump
ing the bag, it is very difficult to re-start, but starts readily after ten
minutes or on first start.
Lowell
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 |
Thanks all for the ideas. Stan, I think the header tank would
compensate for unporting the wing tanks, but it does bring up an
interesting thought. My gear legs are a bit taller than most and the
nose does point up more at three point attitude, but then it starts
pretty normally when cold - or warm for that matter after sitting for a
while. A neighbor heavily into motorcycles suspected too rich at idle
and possibly flooding, other posts mentioning too lean gives me
something to work with as I can run the idle jet both ways to see which
works best, then there is the spark plug check after it quits - dry and
white, or dark and moist.
The best part of all this, I might add, is seeing some names that mean a
lot to me in the Kitfox world.
Thanks,
Lowell
From: Stan Specht
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Brain Picking Engine 912
Hi Lowell-
I seem to remember a few years back we were warned not to keep the
aircraft in a too pitch up attitude for very long, as would be the case
in flying on final. The consequences were that fuel would quit flowing
from the tank. Subsequently, they moved the feed drain or built in a
sump in the bottom of the tank to keep the fuel flowing. Might this be
your problem?
Stan Specht
KF IV 912ul 1,937 hrs. and still cookin'
Denver, CO
-----Original Message-----
From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Thu, Jan 17, 2013 1:23 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Brain Picking Engine 912
I need some help. During my 40 hour test phase, I had a three or four
instances where the engine quit at the flare or shortly after touch
down. hearing the engine spin down prompted a throttle input that did
nothing. Re-starting was impossible for the first several minutes. it
happened again yesterday with another airplane nearing downwind in the
pattern. I added a half turn to the idle stop and flew again and this
time, I had trouble losing altitude going around the first time and a
vigorous side slip to get down the second time. Needless to say, I took
the half turn out to get the idle lower for final. I need some wisdom
from the other guys running the 912.
Info - I lightened the throttle springs as many have. I have the
vernier throttle with the typical Model IV bell crank set-up and
typically give it a quarter turn or so to the left to make sure the ball
is in the groove. I have an aux fuel pump - Facet - just down stream
from the header tank and it was on in all instances. My lawn mower does
the exact thing - when dumping the bag, it is very difficult to
re-start, but starts readily after ten minutes or on first start.
Lowell
tor?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 |
Look at this:
http://www.ch601.org/stories/croke_crash.htm
On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> **
> Thanks all for the ideas. Stan, I think the header tank would compensate
> for unporting the wing tanks, but it does bring up an interesting thought.
> My gear legs are a bit taller than most and the nose does point up more at
> three point attitude, but then it starts pretty normally when cold - or
> warm for that matter after sitting for a while. A neighbor heavily into
> motorcycles suspected too rich at idle and possibly flooding, other posts
> mentioning too lean gives me something to work with as I can run the idle
> jet both ways to see which works best, then there is the spark plug check
> after it quits - dry and white, or dark and moist.
>
> The best part of all this, I might add, is seeing some names that mean a
> lot to me in the Kitfox world.
>
> Thanks,
> Lowell
>
> *From:* Stan Specht <sourdostan@aol.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 17, 2013 3:01 PM
> *To:* kitfox-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Kitfox-List: Brain Picking Engine 912
>
> Hi Lowell-
>
> I seem to remember a few years back we were warned not to keep the
> aircraft in a too pitch up attitude for very long, as would be the case in
> flying on final. The consequences were that fuel would quit flowing from
> the tank. Subsequently, they moved the feed drain or built in a sump in the
> bottom of the tank to keep the fuel flowing. Might this be your problem?
>
> Stan Specht
> KF IV 912ul 1,937 hrs. and still cookin'
> Denver, CO
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> To: kitfox-list <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thu, Jan 17, 2013 1:23 pm
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Brain Picking Engine 912
>
> I need some help. During my 40 hour test phase, I had a three or four
> instances where the engine quit at the flare or shortly after touch down.
> hearing the engine spin down prompted a throttle input that did nothing.
> Re-starting was impossible for the first several minutes. it happened
> again yesterday with another airplane nearing downwind in the pattern. I
> added a half turn to the idle stop and flew again and this time, I had
> trouble losing altitude going around the first time and a vigorous side
> slip to get down the second time. Needless to say, I took the half turn
> out to get the idle lower for final. I need some wisdom from the other
> guys running the 912.
>
> Info - I lightened the throttle springs as many have. I have the vernier
> throttle with the typical Model IV bell crank set-up and typically give it
> a quarter turn or so to the left to make sure the ball is in the groove.
> I have an aux fuel pump - Facet - just down stream from the header tank and
> it was on in all instances. My lawn mower does the exact thing - when
> dumping the bag, it is very difficult to re-start, but starts readily after
> ten minutes or on first start.
>
> Lowell
> **
>
> *
>
> tor?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 |
Tom,
Thanks for the note and the link. I will follow through on this as it is
a good lead. During the test phase, I found that both carburetor springs
had broken. The engine I am using was off a pusher type airplane and the
throttle arms were weird things and I made my own - the factory springs
were missing as well so used some available locally. I think the weight
of the springs provided a harmonic vibration that quickly broke them. I
then replaced them with small diameter springs. This might be the common
thread. So far, though, I have had no full throttle issues. It is always
at low speeds when the foreward movement doesn't privide enough air flow
to keep the prop spinning. the fact that I will give it some throttle
and nothing happens to prevent the final run do zero might be spring
related. My first airplane always had the factory springs and I put a
counteracting spring behind the panel to lessen the tendency to go to
full with an inadvertent tap of the button.
Thanks again,
Lowell
From: Tommy Walker
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Brain Picking Engine 912
Look at this:
http://www.ch601.org/stories/croke_crash.htm
On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Thanks all for the ideas. Stan, I think the header tank would
compensate for unporting the wing tanks, but it does bring up an
interesting thought. My gear legs are a bit taller than most and the
nose does point up more at three point attitude, but then it starts
pretty normally when cold - or warm for that matter after sitting for a
while. A neighbor heavily into motorcycles suspected too rich at idle
and possibly flooding, other posts mentioning too lean gives me
something to work with as I can run the idle jet both ways to see which
works best, then there is the spark plug check after it quits - dry and
white, or dark and moist.
The best part of all this, I might add, is seeing some names that mean
a lot to me in the Kitfox world.
Thanks,
Lowell
From: Stan Specht
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 3:01 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Brain Picking Engine 912
Hi Lowell-
I seem to remember a few years back we were warned not to keep the
aircraft in a too pitch up attitude for very long, as would be the case
in flying on final. The consequences were that fuel would quit flowing
from the tank. Subsequently, they moved the feed drain or built in a
sump in the bottom of the tank to keep the fuel flowing. Might this be
your problem?
Stan Specht
KF IV 912ul 1,937 hrs. and still cookin'
Denver, CO
-----Original Message-----
From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
To: kitfox-list <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 17, 2013 1:23 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Brain Picking Engine 912
I need some help. During my 40 hour test phase, I had a three or four
instances where the engine quit at the flare or shortly after touch
down. hearing the engine spin down prompted a throttle input that did
nothing. Re-starting was impossible for the first several minutes. it
happened again yesterday with another airplane nearing downwind in the
pattern. I added a half turn to the idle stop and flew again and this
time, I had trouble losing altitude going around the first time and a
vigorous side slip to get down the second time. Needless to say, I took
the half turn out to get the idle lower for final. I need some wisdom
from the other guys running the 912.
Info - I lightened the throttle springs as many have. I have the
vernier throttle with the typical Model IV bell crank set-up and
typically give it a quarter turn or so to the left to make sure the ball
is in the groove. I have an aux fuel pump - Facet - just down stream
from the header tank and it was on in all instances. My lawn mower does
the exact thing - when dumping the bag, it is very difficult to
re-start, but starts readily after ten minutes or on first start.
Lowell
tor?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
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| Subject: | Re: Brain Picking Engine 912 |
Hi Lowell=0A-=0AGood to hear you're flying again.- I was flying a Sport
Star rental out of SNS that the engine would stop at touch down if the thr
ottle was all the way back.- But it would start right back up again.- W
hat rpm's are you setting the idle for?- I set for a minimum of about 170
0.- Below that it gets too rough.- It sure makes a difference to have a
low throttle setting for landing short field.- Not starting again would
usually mean flooded, if the throttles are moving into the correct position
. =0A-=0AJim Shumaker=0AKitfox III 1100 hours =0A912ul =0A=0A____________
____________________=0A From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>=0ATo: kitf
ox-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 6:30 PM=0ASubject
: Re: Kitfox-List: Brain Picking Engine 912=0A =0A=0A =0ATom, =0AThanks fo
r the note and the link. I will follow through on this as it is a =0Agood l
ead. During the test phase, I found that both carburetor springs had =0Abro
ken. The engine I am using was off a pusher type airplane and the throttle
=0Aarms were weird things and I made my own - the factory springs were miss
ing as =0Awell so used some available locally. I think the weight of the sp
rings provided =0Aa harmonic vibration that quickly broke them. I then repl
aced them with small =0Adiameter springs. This might be the common thread.
So far, though, I have had no =0Afull throttle issues. It is always at low
speeds when the foreward movement =0Adoesn't privide enough air flow to kee
p the prop spinning. the fact that I will =0Agive it some throttle and noth
ing happens to prevent the final run do zero might =0Abe spring related.-
My first airplane always had the factory springs and I =0Aput a counteract
ing spring behind the panel to lessen the tendency to go to full =0Awith an
inadvertent tap of the button. =0AThanks again, =0ALowell =0A=0A =0AFrom:
Tommy Walker =0ASent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 4:18 PM =0ATo: kitfox-lis
t@matronics.com =0ASubject: Re: Kitfox-List: Brain Picking Engine 912 =0AL
ook at this: =0A =0Ahttp://www.ch601.org/stories/croke_crash.htm=0A=0A=0AOn
Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net> wrote:=0A
=0A =0A>Thanks all for the ideas.- Stan, I think the header tank would c
ompensate for unporting the wing tanks, but it does bring up an interestin
g thought.- My gear legs are a bit taller than most and the nose does po
int up more at three point attitude, but then it starts pretty normally wh
en cold - or warm for that matter after sitting for a while.- A neighbor
heavily into motorcycles suspected too rich at idle and possibly flooding
, other posts mentioning too lean gives me something to work with as I can
run the idle jet both ways to see which works best, then there is the spa
rk plug check after it quits - dry and white, or dark and moist. =0A>-
=0A>The best part of all this, I might add, is seeing some names that mean
a lot to me in the Kitfox world. =0A>- =0A>Thanks, =0A>Lowell =0A>=0A>
=0A>From: Stan Specht =0A>Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 3:01 PM =0A>To:
kitfox-list@matronics.com =0A>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Brain Picking Eng
ine 912 =0A>=0A>Hi Lowell- =0A>=0A> =0A>I seem to remember a few years bac
k we were warned not to keep the aircraft in a too pitch up attitude for v
ery long, as would be the case in flying on final. The consequences were t
hat fuel would quit flowing from the tank. Subsequently, they moved the fe
ed drain or built in a sump in the bottom of the tank to keep the fuel flo
wing. Might this be your problem? =0A>=0A> =0A>Stan Specht =0A>KF IV 912ul
1,937 hrs. and still cookin' =0A>Denver, CO=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>-----Original
Message-----=0A>From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>=0A>To: kitfox-list
<kitfox-list@matronics.com>=0A>Sent: Thu, Jan 17, 2013 =0A 1:23 pm=0A>Sub
ject: Kitfox-List: Brain Picking Engine 912=0A>=0A>=0A>I need some help.-
During my 40 hour test phase, I had a three or four instances where the e
ngine quit at the flare or shortly after touch down.- hearing the engine
spin down prompted-a throttle input-that did nothing.- Re-starting
was impossible for the first several minutes.- it happened again yesterd
ay with another airplane nearing downwind in the pattern.- I added a hal
f turn to the idle stop and flew again and this time, I had trouble losing
altitude going around the first time and a vigorous side slip to get down
the second time.- Needless to say, I took the half turn out to get the
idle lower for final.- I need some wisdom from the other guys running th
e 912. =0A>- =0A>Info - I lightened the throttle springs as many have.
- I have the vernier throttle with the typical Model IV bell crank set-u
p and typically give it a quarter turn or so to the left to make sure the
ball is in the groove.-- I have an aux fuel pump - Facet - just down s
tream from the header tank and it was on in all instances.- My lawn mowe
r does the exact thing - when dumping the bag, it is very difficult to re-
start, but starts readily after ten minutes or on first start. =0A>- =0A>
Lowell =0A>-=0A>tor?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfo
x-List tp://forums.matronics.com bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribut
ion =0A>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.
matronhref/="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com/ h
ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
=0A>arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List=0Atp://
forums.matronics.com=0A_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A=0A
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0Ahref="ht
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