Today's Message Index:
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1. 05:08 AM - Re: Warpdrive ! Scotty! (Sacha)
2. 05:25 AM - test - posting a picture, please ignore (Sacha)
3. 05:40 AM - Re: Warpdrive ! Scotty! (Sacha)
4. 05:41 AM - Re: test - posting a picture, please ignore (JC Propeller Design)
5. 07:53 AM - Re: Warpdrive ! Scotty! (Lowell Fitt)
6. 09:02 AM - Re: Warpdrive ! Scotty! (Dave)
7. 09:04 AM - Re: Warpdrive ! Scotty! (Lloyd & Lorrie Cudnohufsky)
8. 09:45 AM - Re: Warpdrive ! Scotty! (Sacha)
9. 11:20 AM - Re: Warpdrive ! Scotty! (Dave)
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| Subject: | Re: Warpdrive ! Scotty! |
Hi Jim, Lowell, Stan et al,
I=99ve been learning a lot in this conversation, thanks for your
inputs.
Today I woke up early and decided to go and read the read up the Rotax
documentation.... Here is what I found:
- Rotax service letter SL-912-016 / SL-914-014 (search for the
later on ROAN as if you search for the former it does not appear for
some
reason) is entitled =9CEssential Information Regarding Engine
behavior,
Performance and Manifold Pressure Data for Rotax 912 and 914
Series=9D.
Section 3.1.4 specifies that a MAP gauge *must* be fitted when using an
in
flight adjustable prop. Presumably so that one does not load the engine
excessively with RPM too low.
- The Operators manual (Ed 3, Rev. 0, September 01/2012) has a
table on page 5-3 of recommended RPM/MAP settings for the 912 engines
with
variable pitch propellers which I=99ve reproduced here:
Power Setting
RPM
HP
Torque (Nm)
Map
Take-off
5800
80
98.1
Full throttle
Max. continuous
5500
78
100.7
Full throttle
75%
5000
58
83.1
27.2
65%
4800
50
75.0
26.5
55%
4300
43
70.8
26.3*
- * It looks like the MAP of 26.3 for 4300 RPM is wrong in the
above table. If I check the graph in Fig. 2 on page 5-2, for 4300 RPM I
read
off 24.3, so I guess there=99s a misprint there. The other numbers
look ok and
appear to make sense.
- In my case, I don=99t have space for a MAP gauge on my
panel, but I
already have a Floscan fuel monitor/gauge. I=99m wondering if
that could be
substituted for the MAP gauge? After all, fuel burn tells me how much
energy I=99m feeding into the engine, so it should be very closely
correlated
to power developed. And my fuel return line goes back to the gascolator
(downstream of the fuel flow sensor), so the fuel slow sensor should be
measuring net fuel consumption. I=99m just not sure how
accurate/responsive
it is to changes. Anyway, I=99ve used the fuel consumption (Fig 2
on page
5-2) of the Operators manual and derived the following table (where
I=99ve
also corrected the misprint I mentioned above). Here, I=99ve
reported the
power requirement of the propeller rather than the max engine output,
since
the former is what is almost perfectly proportional to fuel flow, as can
be
verified by the fact that the last column (giving fuel consumption in
L/h
per HP developed) is almost constant.
Table derived from the 912 Rotax Operators Manual (p. 5-2 & 5-3) showing
power settings, RPM, Torque, MAP and fuel consumption along the
propeller
power curve (corrected for misprints)
Power Setting
RPM
HP (prop)
Torque (Nm)
Map
Fuel Cons (L/h)
Fuel Cons GPH
L/h/HP
Take-off
5800
80.0
98.1
Full throttle
22.7
6.0
0.28
Max. continuous
5500
69.0
100.7
Full throttle
19.0
5.0
0.28
75%
5000
51.0
83.1
27.2
14.7
3.9
0.29
65%
4800
46.0
75.0
26.5
13.0
3.4
0.28
55%
4300
33.5
70.8
24.3
10.0
2.6
0.30
The fuel consumption numbers appear to make sense and to be
similar to
what e.g. Stan was reporting.
Sacha
On Mar 16, 2013, at 2:23, James Shumaker <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
It should be no problem to run that way. Rotax reccomends against
running
the engine at full throttle if less than 5200 rpm can be maintained (as
in a
climb).
Jim Shumaker
Kitfox III
1100 hours
Rotax 912 ul
Warp drive 3 blade ground adjustable.
_____
From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Fri, March 15, 2013 9:13:33 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
I wonder if this would be a good idea without a manifold pressure gauge.
It
sort of sounds like the no nos about lugging an automobile engine.
Lowell
From: Lloyd <mailto:7suds@Chartermi.net> & Lorrie Cudnohufsky
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 6:30 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Stan, All,
I either read or heard somewhere that with the IFA prop you can fire
wall
the engine and trim the prop to 5500 RPM for your max cruise speed, any
experience with that theory of operation?
Lloyd
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan Specht
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 12:35 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
LLoyd-
I get about 5400 rpm static run-up with my 70" IVO prop in full
take-off/climb pitch. It can easily redline during takeoff, since I do
not
have any stop washers on the prop. I would not let anyone else fly the
aircraft, since it could be easy to over-rev during takeoff. Not sure if
I
would recommend this situation to anyone else, but I have lots of hours
on
the a/c and am very used to its abilities. I usually climb out at 60-65
mph
ias and 10 deg. flaps with great success. In cruise I set the throttle
at
about 5500 rpm and bring the rpm to about 5200 rpm with prop pitch.
(Anything below about 5200 I begin seeing a slower speed.) I see about
3.7-3.8 gph in this setting for about a true airspeed of 115 mph.( A
friend
that has flown with me thinks I get closer to 120 mph at this setting.)
If I
want to burn 4 gph I can get about 120 mph. Not bad on 80 hp.
Stan
-----Original Message-----
From: Lloyd & Lorrie Cudnohufsky < <mailto:7suds@Chartermi.net>
7suds@Chartermi.net>
kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 10, 2013 12:59 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Stan,
I installed the same prop with a 812ul behind it on my model 5, I only
have
about 60 hours on it and am very pleased with the performance, was
wondering
if you would be willing to share how you trim your prop for takeoff,
cruise,
etc, also did you set the stop nuts on the screw travel to limit the
high
and low ends of your pitch adjustment?
Lloyd C
Model 5 Outback 912ul IVO IFA
Northern Mi.
From: <mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com>
owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [
<mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com?>
mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan Specht
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Yes, it's the three-blade Ultralight model. I frequently fly in
mountainous
areas as well. I love my Model IV!!!
Stan
-----Original Message-----
From: Sacha < <mailto:uuccio@gmail.com> uuccio@gmail.com>
kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Mon, Mar 4, 2013 5:36 am
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Stan,
That sounds great to me! Is that the 3-blade model? There is a lot of
mountainous terrain where I fly so I'm beginning to think it makes sense
for
me to go that route.
Sacha
(Kitfox IV rebuild, 80hp, Sicily.... Almost done!)
On Mar 4, 2013, at 7:13, Stan Specht < <mailto:sourdostan@aol.com>
sourdostan@aol.com> wrote:
Sacha-
I fly a Speedster Model IV with an 80 hp. 912 . For the past 1500
hours+
(1947 hrs. TT) I have used a 70" IVO cabin-adjustable prop. I wouldn't
fly
behind anything else, even though it takes a bit of maintenance once and
awhile. I cruise around 52-5300 rpm at 115 mph, burn under 4 gph and can
get
120 mph if I goose it up to about 4 gph. My climb out, even here in the
Mile
High City, is real positive. I wouldn't be able to get this performance
without this prop. Also, I fly a lot of cross country and really like
this
prop for this purpose.
Stan Specht
Denver, Colorado
-----Original Message-----
From: Sacha < <mailto:uuccio@gmail.com> uuccio@gmail.com>
kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 3, 2013 2:19 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Lowell,
Thanks for the detailed info!
I=99m also leaning towards a 3-blade 68=9D. I know this is
very different from
a wooden fixed pitch prop, but I=99m wondering whether I should
spend the
extra money and get an in-flight adjustable pitch since I plan to be
doing
some cruising around with the plane once I get comfortable with it. If
anyone has any insight/experience there, I=99d appreciate hearing
it.
Sacha
From: <mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com>
owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [
<mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com?>
mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Sent: Saturday, 02 March, 2013 16:20
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Sacha,
Most of my numbers are very preliminary. And after flying the actual
test
phases, it was mostly to put the required 40 hours on it and I throttled
back because distance was not as important as time and I didn't want to
burn more gas than was necessary. So numbers are not finalized.
I was getting about 100 mph at 5000 RPM. During the test phase in
probably
85-90 degree days, climb was very close to 1000 fpm. The 1300 I
mentioned
was at a temp in the high 50s to low 60s. As I do the longer cross
country
flights fuel burn will be more apparent. I chose the 68" prop because
that
is what was recommended by the guys I knew that have been running the
Warp
prop.
One issue I did have with the Warp Prop is that one blade would change
pitch
one degree after running for a short while. I would re-pitch it and it
would change the one degree again. I contacted Warp and this is there
explanation. The aluminum collar is placed in the mold and the resin
and
fabric are the inserted and cured under pressure. Occasionally the
resin
will shrink away from the aluminum collar. He explained that is the
reason
for the holes drilled through the collar at 180=C2=B0. The resin is
supposed to
run into the holes and act as a pinning mechanism. Apparently this was
not
working on my prop and he suggested I pin with aluminum pins.
I drilled two 3/16" holes through the collar and into the hub about 3/8"
deep. and about an inch from the hub end. I cut two pins of 3/16"
aluminum
and glued them in the holes with a structural adhesive. I have to say
here
that this is what I did as I forgot to ask him for the factory
recommended
procedure. If anyone else is having this problem, I would suggest
calling
for the exact recommendations.
Lowell
From: <mailto:uuccio@gmail.com> Sacha
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
That's great info... Lowell/All, what kind of cruise characteristics
(speed,
rpm, fuel consumption) do you get out of it?
I am actually looking for a prop for a Kitfox IV - 80hp. Thinking Warp
or
Ivoprop or a wooden one by a local maker. I'd also consider a second
hand
one if anyone has one they want to sell?
Sacha
On Mar 2, 2013, at 4:45, "Lowell Fitt" < <mailto:lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
lcfitt@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Toodie and bob,
My Model IV - 80 HP with 68" Warp prop is pitched at 23=C2=B0. My climb
RPM is
not as great as Rick's - 5200 but and I am still fairly early in the
flying
on this airplane - 45 hours. Things may change, but I often see 1300
fpm
climb and cruise is pretty good.
Lowell
From: <mailto:MDKitfox@aol.com> Richard Weiss
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Toodie and Bob,
I have my Warp Drive prop set for 17 degrees. It seems the engine/plane
combination is 'comfortable' at the pitch setting. It's very smooth and
I
get about 5600--5700 RPM on take off, although takeoff is so quick I
barely
have time to look at the tach.
Rick Weiss
Series V (Skystar s/n 1) Speedster:-)
Rotax 912S, Dynon Sky View
Spruce Creek Fly In, FL
<mailto:MDKitfox@aol.com> MDKitfox@aol.com
On Mar 1, 2013, at 6:52 PM, rtmarshall wrote:
Hello Kitfox flyers out in the hinterland, I am sure there is a segment
of
the group that use's the 70" warpdrive prop on their 80HP KF. As a
starting point for pitch what seems to be the # ? I am thinking
around
21* pitch, might be too much " what does the group think? Thanks much
for
your input and thoughts on the subject. Blue Skies.
Toodie & Bob Marshall
Beckwourth, CA
KF/4/1200 flying
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| Subject: | test - posting a picture, please ignore |
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| Subject: | Warpdrive ! Scotty! |
Reposting with pics rather than tables! Sorry about that!
Hi Jim, Lowell, Stan et al,
I=99ve been learning a lot in this conversation, thanks for your
inputs. Today I woke up early and decided to go and read up the Rotax
documentation.... Here is what I found:
- Rotax service letter SL-912-016 / SL-914-014 (search for the
later on ROAN as if you search for the former it does not appear for
some reason) is entitled =9CEssential Information Regarding Engine
behavior, Performance and Manifold Pressure Data for Rotax 912 and 914
Series=9D. Section 3.1.4 specifies that a MAP gauge *must* be
fitted when using an in flight adjustable prop. Presumably so that one
does not load the engine excessively with RPM too low.
- The Operators manual (Ed 3, Rev. 0, September 01/2012) has a
table on page 5-3 of recommended RPM/MAP settings for the 912 engines
with variable pitch propellers which I=99ve reproduced here:
* It looks like the MAP of 26.3 for 4300 RPM is wrong in the above
table. If I check the graph in Fig. 2 on page 5-2, for 4300 RPM I read
off 24.3, so I guess there=99s a misprint there. The other numbers
look ok and appear to make sense.
- In my case, I don=99t have space for a MAP gauge on my
panel, but I already have a Floscan fuel monitor/gauge. I=99m
wondering if that could be substituted for the MAP gauge? After all,
fuel burn tells me how much energy I=99m feeding into the engine,
so it should be very closely correlated to power developed. And my fuel
return line goes back to the gascolator (downstream of the fuel flow
sensor), so the fuel slow sensor should be measuring net fuel
consumption. I=99m just not sure how accurate/responsive it is to
changes. Anyway, I=99ve used the fuel consumption (Fig 2 on page
5-2) of the Operators manual and derived the following table. Here,
I=99ve reported the power requirement of the propeller rather than
the max engine output, since the former is what is almost perfectly
proportional to fuel flow, as can be verified by the fact that the last
column (giving fuel consumption in L/h per HP developed) is almost
constant. Data is from pages 5-2 & 5-3 of the operator manual (corrected
for the misprint I mentioned above)
The fuel consumption numbers appear to make sense and to be
similar to what e.g. Stan was reporting.
Sacha
On Mar 16, 2013, at 2:23, James Shumaker <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
It should be no problem to run that way. Rotax reccomends against
running the engine at full throttle if less than 5200 rpm can be
maintained (as in a climb).
Jim Shumaker
Kitfox III
1100 hours
Rotax 912 ul
Warp drive 3 blade ground adjustable.
_____
From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Fri, March 15, 2013 9:13:33 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
I wonder if this would be a good idea without a manifold pressure gauge.
It sort of sounds like the no nos about lugging an automobile engine.
Lowell
From: Lloyd <mailto:7suds@Chartermi.net> & Lorrie Cudnohufsky
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 6:30 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Stan, All,
I either read or heard somewhere that with the IFA prop you can fire
wall the engine and trim the prop to 5500 RPM for your max cruise speed,
any experience with that theory of operation?
Lloyd
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan Specht
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 12:35 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
LLoyd-
I get about 5400 rpm static run-up with my 70" IVO prop in full
take-off/climb pitch. It can easily redline during takeoff, since I do
not have any stop washers on the prop. I would not let anyone else fly
the aircraft, since it could be easy to over-rev during takeoff. Not
sure if I would recommend this situation to anyone else, but I have lots
of hours on the a/c and am very used to its abilities. I usually climb
out at 60-65 mph ias and 10 deg. flaps with great success. In cruise I
set the throttle at about 5500 rpm and bring the rpm to about 5200 rpm
with prop pitch. (Anything below about 5200 I begin seeing a slower
speed.) I see about 3.7-3.8 gph in this setting for about a true
airspeed of 115 mph.( A friend that has flown with me thinks I get
closer to 120 mph at this setting.) If I want to burn 4 gph I can get
about 120 mph. Not bad on 80 hp.
Stan
-----Original Message-----
From: Lloyd & Lorrie Cudnohufsky < <mailto:7suds@Chartermi.net>
7suds@Chartermi.net>
kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 10, 2013 12:59 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Stan,
I installed the same prop with a 812ul behind it on my model 5, I only
have about 60 hours on it and am very pleased with the performance, was
wondering if you would be willing to share how you trim your prop for
takeoff, cruise, etc, also did you set the stop nuts on the screw travel
to limit the high and low ends of your pitch adjustment?
Lloyd C
Model 5 Outback 912ul IVO IFA
Northern Mi.
From: <mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com>
owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [
<mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com?>
mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan Specht
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Yes, it's the three-blade Ultralight model. I frequently fly in
mountainous areas as well. I love my Model IV!!!
Stan
-----Original Message-----
From: Sacha < <mailto:uuccio@gmail.com> uuccio@gmail.com>
kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Mon, Mar 4, 2013 5:36 am
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Stan,
That sounds great to me! Is that the 3-blade model? There is a lot of
mountainous terrain where I fly so I'm beginning to think it makes sense
for me to go that route.
Sacha
(Kitfox IV rebuild, 80hp, Sicily.... Almost done!)
On Mar 4, 2013, at 7:13, Stan Specht < <mailto:sourdostan@aol.com>
sourdostan@aol.com> wrote:
Sacha-
I fly a Speedster Model IV with an 80 hp. 912 . For the past 1500
hours+ (1947 hrs. TT) I have used a 70" IVO cabin-adjustable prop. I
wouldn't fly behind anything else, even though it takes a bit of
maintenance once and awhile. I cruise around 52-5300 rpm at 115 mph,
burn under 4 gph and can get 120 mph if I goose it up to about 4 gph. My
climb out, even here in the Mile High City, is real positive. I wouldn't
be able to get this performance without this prop. Also, I fly a lot of
cross country and really like this prop for this purpose.
Stan Specht
Denver, Colorado
-----Original Message-----
From: Sacha < <mailto:uuccio@gmail.com> uuccio@gmail.com>
kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 3, 2013 2:19 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Lowell,
Thanks for the detailed info!
I=99m also leaning towards a 3-blade 68=9D. I know this is
very different from a wooden fixed pitch prop, but I=99m wondering
whether I should spend the extra money and get an in-flight adjustable
pitch since I plan to be doing some cruising around with the plane once
I get comfortable with it. If anyone has any insight/experience there,
I=99d appreciate hearing it.
Sacha
From: <mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com>
owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [
<mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com?>
mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Sent: Saturday, 02 March, 2013 16:20
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Sacha,
Most of my numbers are very preliminary. And after flying the actual
test phases, it was mostly to put the required 40 hours on it and I
throttled back because distance was not as important as time and I
didn't want to burn more gas than was necessary. So numbers are not
finalized.
I was getting about 100 mph at 5000 RPM. During the test phase in
probably 85-90 degree days, climb was very close to 1000 fpm. The 1300
I mentioned was at a temp in the high 50s to low 60s. As I do the
longer cross country flights fuel burn will be more apparent. I chose
the 68" prop because that is what was recommended by the guys I knew
that have been running the Warp prop.
One issue I did have with the Warp Prop is that one blade would change
pitch one degree after running for a short while. I would re-pitch it
and it would change the one degree again. I contacted Warp and this is
there explanation. The aluminum collar is placed in the mold and the
resin and fabric are the inserted and cured under pressure.
Occasionally the resin will shrink away from the aluminum collar. He
explained that is the reason for the holes drilled through the collar at
180=C2=B0. The resin is supposed to run into the holes and act as a
pinning mechanism. Apparently this was not working on my prop and he
suggested I pin with aluminum pins.
I drilled two 3/16" holes through the collar and into the hub about 3/8"
deep. and about an inch from the hub end. I cut two pins of 3/16"
aluminum and glued them in the holes with a structural adhesive. I
have to say here that this is what I did as I forgot to ask him for the
factory recommended procedure. If anyone else is having this problem, I
would suggest calling for the exact recommendations.
Lowell
From: <mailto:uuccio@gmail.com> Sacha
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
That's great info... Lowell/All, what kind of cruise characteristics
(speed, rpm, fuel consumption) do you get out of it?
I am actually looking for a prop for a Kitfox IV - 80hp. Thinking Warp
or Ivoprop or a wooden one by a local maker. I'd also consider a second
hand one if anyone has one they want to sell?
Sacha
On Mar 2, 2013, at 4:45, "Lowell Fitt" < <mailto:lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
lcfitt@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Toodie and bob,
My Model IV - 80 HP with 68" Warp prop is pitched at 23=C2=B0. My climb
RPM is not as great as Rick's - 5200 but and I am still fairly early in
the flying on this airplane - 45 hours. Things may change, but I often
see 1300 fpm climb and cruise is pretty good.
Lowell
From: <mailto:MDKitfox@aol.com> Richard Weiss
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Toodie and Bob,
I have my Warp Drive prop set for 17 degrees. It seems the engine/plane
combination is 'comfortable' at the pitch setting. It's very smooth and
I get about 5600--5700 RPM on take off, although takeoff is so quick I
barely have time to look at the tach.
Rick Weiss
Series V (Skystar s/n 1) Speedster:-)
Rotax 912S, Dynon Sky View
Spruce Creek Fly In, FL
<mailto:MDKitfox@aol.com> MDKitfox@aol.com
On Mar 1, 2013, at 6:52 PM, rtmarshall wrote:
Hello Kitfox flyers out in the hinterland, I am sure there is a segment
of the group that use's the 70" warpdrive prop on their 80HP KF. As a
starting point for pitch what seems to be the # ? I am thinking
around 21* pitch, might be too much " what does the group think? Thanks
much for your input and thoughts on the subject. Blue Skies.
Toodie & Bob Marshall
Beckwourth, CA
KF/4/1200 flying
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| Subject: | Re: test - posting a picture, please ignore |
Keep in Mind, that,
Power is not always what it say on the box the engine was delivered in.
Many engines is tested without air filter, alternator, exhaust system...
they can be 15% down on power when installed.
Other engines, like Rotax is tested with those items on.
Jan
jc propeller design
----- Original Message -----
From: Sacha
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 1:25 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: test - posting a picture, please ignore
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Warpdrive ! Scotty! |
Sacha,
Thanks for the detailed post. This is a keeper.
Lowell
From: Sacha
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 5:40 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Reposting with pics rather than tables! Sorry about that!
Hi Jim, Lowell, Stan et al,
I=99ve been learning a lot in this conversation, thanks for your
inputs. Today I woke up early and decided to go and read up the Rotax
documentation.... Here is what I found:
- Rotax service letter SL-912-016 / SL-914-014 (search for the
later on ROAN as if you search for the former it does not appear for
some reason) is entitled =9CEssential Information Regarding Engine
behavior, Performance and Manifold Pressure Data for Rotax 912 and 914
Series=9D. Section 3.1.4 specifies that a MAP gauge *must* be
fitted when using an in flight adjustable prop. Presumably so that one
does not load the engine excessively with RPM too low.
- The Operators manual (Ed 3, Rev. 0, September 01/2012) has a
table on page 5-3 of recommended RPM/MAP settings for the 912 engines
with variable pitch propellers which I=99ve reproduced here:
* It looks like the MAP of 26.3 for 4300 RPM is wrong in the above
table. If I check the graph in Fig. 2 on page 5-2, for 4300 RPM I read
off 24.3, so I guess there=99s a misprint there. The other numbers
look ok and appear to make sense.
- In my case, I don=99t have space for a MAP gauge on my
panel, but I already have a Floscan fuel monitor/gauge. I=99m
wondering if that could be substituted for the MAP gauge? After all,
fuel burn tells me how much energy I=99m feeding into the engine,
so it should be very closely correlated to power developed. And my fuel
return line goes back to the gascolator (downstream of the fuel flow
sensor), so the fuel slow sensor should be measuring net fuel
consumption. I=99m just not sure how accurate/responsive it is to
changes. Anyway, I=99ve used the fuel consumption (Fig 2 on page
5-2) of the Operators manual and derived the following table. Here,
I=99ve reported the power requirement of the propeller rather than
the max engine output, since the former is what is almost perfectly
proportional to fuel flow, as can be verified by the fact that the last
column (giving fuel consumption in L/h per HP developed) is almost
constant. Data is from pages 5-2 & 5-3 of the operator manual (corrected
for the misprint I mentioned above)
The fuel consumption numbers appear to make sense and to be
similar to what e.g. Stan was reporting.
Sacha
On Mar 16, 2013, at 2:23, James Shumaker <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
It should be no problem to run that way. Rotax reccomends against
running the engine at full throttle if less than 5200 rpm can be
maintained (as in a climb).
Jim Shumaker
Kitfox III
1100 hours
Rotax 912 ul
Warp drive 3 blade ground adjustable.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Fri, March 15, 2013 9:13:33 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
I wonder if this would be a good idea without a manifold pressure
gauge. It sort of sounds like the no nos about lugging an automobile
engine.
Lowell
From: Lloyd & Lorrie Cudnohufsky
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 6:30 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Stan, All,
I either read or heard somewhere that with the IFA prop you can fire
wall the engine and trim the prop to 5500 RPM for your max cruise speed,
any experience with that theory of operation?
Lloyd
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan Specht
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 12:35 AM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
LLoyd-
I get about 5400 rpm static run-up with my 70" IVO prop in full
take-off/climb pitch. It can easily redline during takeoff, since I do
not have any stop washers on the prop. I would not let anyone else fly
the aircraft, since it could be easy to over-rev during takeoff. Not
sure if I would recommend this situation to anyone else, but I have lots
of hours on the a/c and am very used to its abilities. I usually climb
out at 60-65 mph ias and 10 deg. flaps with great success. In cruise I
set the throttle at about 5500 rpm and bring the rpm to about 5200 rpm
with prop pitch. (Anything below about 5200 I begin seeing a slower
speed.) I see about 3.7-3.8 gph in this setting for about a true
airspeed of 115 mph.( A friend that has flown with me thinks I get
closer to 120 mph at this setting.) If I want to burn 4 gph I can get
about 120 mph. Not bad on 80 hp.
Stan
-----Original Message-----
From: Lloyd & Lorrie Cudnohufsky <7suds@Chartermi.net>
To: kitfox-list <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 10, 2013 12:59 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Stan,
I installed the same prop with a 812ul behind it on my model 5, I only
have about 60 hours on it and am very pleased with the performance, was
wondering if you would be willing to share how you trim your prop for
takeoff, cruise, etc, also did you set the stop nuts on the screw travel
to limit the high and low ends of your pitch adjustment?
Lloyd C
Model 5 Outback 912ul IVO IFA
Northern Mi.
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan Specht
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 11:47 AM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Yes, it's the three-blade Ultralight model. I frequently fly in
mountainous areas as well. I love my Model IV!!!
Stan
-----Original Message-----
From: Sacha <uuccio@gmail.com>
To: kitfox-list <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Mon, Mar 4, 2013 5:36 am
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Stan,
That sounds great to me! Is that the 3-blade model? There is a lot of
mountainous terrain where I fly so I'm beginning to think it makes sense
for me to go that route.
Sacha
(Kitfox IV rebuild, 80hp, Sicily.... Almost done!)
On Mar 4, 2013, at 7:13, Stan Specht <sourdostan@aol.com> wrote:
Sacha-
I fly a Speedster Model IV with an 80 hp. 912 . For the past 1500
hours+ (1947 hrs. TT) I have used a 70" IVO cabin-adjustable prop. I
wouldn't fly behind anything else, even though it takes a bit of
maintenance once and awhile. I cruise around 52-5300 rpm at 115 mph,
burn under 4 gph and can get 120 mph if I goose it up to about 4 gph. My
climb out, even here in the Mile High City, is real positive. I wouldn't
be able to get this performance without this prop. Also, I fly a lot of
cross country and really like this prop for this purpose.
Stan Specht
Denver, Colorado
-----Original Message-----
From: Sacha <uuccio@gmail.com>
To: kitfox-list <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 3, 2013 2:19 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Lowell,
Thanks for the detailed info!
I=99m also leaning towards a 3-blade 68=9D. I know this
is very different from a wooden fixed pitch prop, but I=99m
wondering whether I should spend the extra money and get an in-flight
adjustable pitch since I plan to be doing some cruising around with the
plane once I get comfortable with it. If anyone has any
insight/experience there, I=99d appreciate hearing it.
Sacha
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Sent: Saturday, 02 March, 2013 16:20
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Sacha,
Most of my numbers are very preliminary. And after flying the actual
test phases, it was mostly to put the required 40 hours on it and I
throttled back because distance was not as important as time and I
didn't want to burn more gas than was necessary. So numbers are not
finalized.
I was getting about 100 mph at 5000 RPM. During the test phase in
probably 85-90 degree days, climb was very close to 1000 fpm. The 1300
I mentioned was at a temp in the high 50s to low 60s. As I do the
longer cross country flights fuel burn will be more apparent. I chose
the 68" prop because that is what was recommended by the guys I knew
that have been running the Warp prop.
One issue I did have with the Warp Prop is that one blade would
change pitch one degree after running for a short while. I would
re-pitch it and it would change the one degree again. I contacted Warp
and this is there explanation. The aluminum collar is placed in the
mold and the resin and fabric are the inserted and cured under pressure.
Occasionally the resin will shrink away from the aluminum collar. He
explained that is the reason for the holes drilled through the collar at
180=C2=B0. The resin is supposed to run into the holes and act as a
pinning mechanism. Apparently this was not working on my prop and he
suggested I pin with aluminum pins.
I drilled two 3/16" holes through the collar and into the hub about
3/8" deep. and about an inch from the hub end. I cut two pins of 3/16"
aluminum and glued them in the holes with a structural adhesive. I
have to say here that this is what I did as I forgot to ask him for the
factory recommended procedure. If anyone else is having this problem, I
would suggest calling for the exact recommendations.
Lowell
From: Sacha
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 10:41 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
That's great info... Lowell/All, what kind of cruise characteristics
(speed, rpm, fuel consumption) do you get out of it?
I am actually looking for a prop for a Kitfox IV - 80hp. Thinking
Warp or Ivoprop or a wooden one by a local maker. I'd also consider a
second hand one if anyone has one they want to sell?
Sacha
On Mar 2, 2013, at 4:45, "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Toodie and bob,
My Model IV - 80 HP with 68" Warp prop is pitched at 23=C2=B0. My
climb RPM is not as great as Rick's - 5200 but and I am still fairly
early in the flying on this airplane - 45 hours. Things may change, but
I often see 1300 fpm climb and cruise is pretty good.
Lowell
From: Richard Weiss
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 6:48 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Toodie and Bob,
I have my Warp Drive prop set for 17 degrees. It seems the
engine/plane combination is 'comfortable' at the pitch setting. It's
very smooth and I get about 5600--5700 RPM on take off, although takeoff
is so quick I barely have time to look at the tach.
Rick Weiss
Series V (Skystar s/n 1) Speedster:-)
Rotax 912S, Dynon Sky View
Spruce Creek Fly In, FL
MDKitfox@aol.com
On Mar 1, 2013, at 6:52 PM, rtmarshall wrote:
Hello Kitfox flyers out in the hinterland, I am sure there is a
segment of the group that use's the 70" warpdrive prop on their 80HP KF.
As a starting point for pitch what seems to be the # ? I am
thinking around 21* pitch, might be too much " what does the group
think? Thanks much for your input and thoughts on the subject. Blue
Skies.
Toodie & Bob Marshall
Beckwourth, CA
KF/4/1200 flying
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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| Subject: | Re: Warpdrive ! Scotty! |
Numbers are not 100 % correct on 2nd
chart
the litre to gal.hour conversion alone does not look correct
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Lowell Fitt
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Sacha,
Thanks for the detailed post. This is a keeper.
Lowell
From: Sacha
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 5:40 AM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Reposting with pics rather than tables! Sorry about that!
Hi Jim, Lowell, Stan et al,
I=99ve been learning a lot in this conversation, thanks for your
inputs. Today I woke up early and decided to go and read up the Rotax
documentation.... Here is what I found:
- Rotax service letter SL-912-016 / SL-914-014 (search for
the later on ROAN as if you search for the former it does not appear for
some reason) is entitled =9CEssential Information Regarding Engine
behavior, Performance and Manifold Pressure Data for Rotax 912 and 914
Series=9D. Section 3.1.4 specifies that a MAP gauge *must* be
fitted when using an in flight adjustable prop. Presumably so that one
does not load the engine excessively with RPM too low.
- The Operators manual (Ed 3, Rev. 0, September 01/2012) has
a table on page 5-3 of recommended RPM/MAP settings for the 912 engines
with variable pitch propellers which I=99ve reproduced here:
* It looks like the MAP of 26.3 for 4300 RPM is wrong in the above
table. If I check the graph in Fig. 2 on page 5-2, for 4300 RPM I read
off 24.3, so I guess there=99s a misprint there. The other numbers
look ok and appear to make sense.
- In my case, I don=99t have space for a MAP gauge on
my panel, but I already have a Floscan fuel monitor/gauge. I=99m
wondering if that could be substituted for the MAP gauge? After all,
fuel burn tells me how much energy I=99m feeding into the engine,
so it should be very closely correlated to power developed. And my fuel
return line goes back to the gascolator (downstream of the fuel flow
sensor), so the fuel slow sensor should be measuring net fuel
consumption. I=99m just not sure how accurate/responsive it is to
changes. Anyway, I=99ve used the fuel consumption (Fig 2 on page
5-2) of the Operators manual and derived the following table. Here,
I=99ve reported the power requirement of the propeller rather than
the max engine output, since the former is what is almost perfectly
proportional to fuel flow, as can be verified by the fact that the last
column (giving fuel consumption in L/h per HP developed) is almost
constant. Data is from pages 5-2 & 5-3 of the operator manual (corrected
for the misprint I mentioned above)
The fuel consumption numbers appear to make sense and to be
similar to what e.g. Stan was reporting.
Sacha
On Mar 16, 2013, at 2:23, James Shumaker <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
It should be no problem to run that way. Rotax reccomends against
running the engine at full throttle if less than 5200 rpm can be
maintained (as in a climb).
Jim Shumaker
Kitfox III
1100 hours
Rotax 912 ul
Warp drive 3 blade ground adjustable.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Fri, March 15, 2013 9:13:33 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
I wonder if this would be a good idea without a manifold pressure
gauge. It sort of sounds like the no nos about lugging an automobile
engine.
Lowell
From: Lloyd & Lorrie Cudnohufsky
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 6:30 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Stan, All,
I either read or heard somewhere that with the IFA prop you can fire
wall the engine and trim the prop to 5500 RPM for your max cruise speed,
any experience with that theory of operation?
Lloyd
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan Specht
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 12:35 AM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
LLoyd-
I get about 5400 rpm static run-up with my 70" IVO prop in full
take-off/climb pitch. It can easily redline during takeoff, since I do
not have any stop washers on the prop. I would not let anyone else fly
the aircraft, since it could be easy to over-rev during takeoff. Not
sure if I would recommend this situation to anyone else, but I have lots
of hours on the a/c and am very used to its abilities. I usually climb
out at 60-65 mph ias and 10 deg. flaps with great success. In cruise I
set the throttle at about 5500 rpm and bring the rpm to about 5200 rpm
with prop pitch. (Anything below about 5200 I begin seeing a slower
speed.) I see about 3.7-3.8 gph in this setting for about a true
airspeed of 115 mph.( A friend that has flown with me thinks I get
closer to 120 mph at this setting.) If I want to burn 4 gph I can get
about 120 mph. Not bad on 80 hp.
Stan
-----Original Message-----
From: Lloyd & Lorrie Cudnohufsky <7suds@Chartermi.net>
To: kitfox-list <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 10, 2013 12:59 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Stan,
I installed the same prop with a 812ul behind it on my model 5, I
only have about 60 hours on it and am very pleased with the performance,
was wondering if you would be willing to share how you trim your prop
for takeoff, cruise, etc, also did you set the stop nuts on the screw
travel to limit the high and low ends of your pitch adjustment?
Lloyd C
Model 5 Outback 912ul IVO IFA
Northern Mi.
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan Specht
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 11:47 AM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Yes, it's the three-blade Ultralight model. I frequently fly in
mountainous areas as well. I love my Model IV!!!
Stan
-----Original Message-----
From: Sacha <uuccio@gmail.com>
To: kitfox-list <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Mon, Mar 4, 2013 5:36 am
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Stan,
That sounds great to me! Is that the 3-blade model? There is a lot
of mountainous terrain where I fly so I'm beginning to think it makes
sense for me to go that route.
Sacha
(Kitfox IV rebuild, 80hp, Sicily.... Almost done!)
On Mar 4, 2013, at 7:13, Stan Specht <sourdostan@aol.com> wrote:
Sacha-
I fly a Speedster Model IV with an 80 hp. 912 . For the past 1500
hours+ (1947 hrs. TT) I have used a 70" IVO cabin-adjustable prop. I
wouldn't fly behind anything else, even though it takes a bit of
maintenance once and awhile. I cruise around 52-5300 rpm at 115 mph,
burn under 4 gph and can get 120 mph if I goose it up to about 4 gph. My
climb out, even here in the Mile High City, is real positive. I wouldn't
be able to get this performance without this prop. Also, I fly a lot of
cross country and really like this prop for this purpose.
Stan Specht
Denver, Colorado
-----Original Message-----
From: Sacha <uuccio@gmail.com>
To: kitfox-list <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 3, 2013 2:19 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Lowell,
Thanks for the detailed info!
I=99m also leaning towards a 3-blade 68=9D. I know
this is very different from a wooden fixed pitch prop, but I=99m
wondering whether I should spend the extra money and get an in-flight
adjustable pitch since I plan to be doing some cruising around with the
plane once I get comfortable with it. If anyone has any
insight/experience there, I=99d appreciate hearing it.
Sacha
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Sent: Saturday, 02 March, 2013 16:20
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Sacha,
Most of my numbers are very preliminary. And after flying the
actual test phases, it was mostly to put the required 40 hours on it and
I throttled back because distance was not as important as time and I
didn't want to burn more gas than was necessary. So numbers are not
finalized.
I was getting about 100 mph at 5000 RPM. During the test phase in
probably 85-90 degree days, climb was very close to 1000 fpm. The 1300
I mentioned was at a temp in the high 50s to low 60s. As I do the
longer cross country flights fuel burn will be more apparent. I chose
the 68" prop because that is what was recommended by the guys I knew
that have been running the Warp prop.
One issue I did have with the Warp Prop is that one blade would
change pitch one degree after running for a short while. I would
re-pitch it and it would change the one degree again. I contacted Warp
and this is there explanation. The aluminum collar is placed in the
mold and the resin and fabric are the inserted and cured under pressure.
Occasionally the resin will shrink away from the aluminum collar. He
explained that is the reason for the holes drilled through the collar at
180=C2=B0. The resin is supposed to run into the holes and act as a
pinning mechanism. Apparently this was not working on my prop and he
suggested I pin with aluminum pins.
I drilled two 3/16" holes through the collar and into the hub
about 3/8" deep. and about an inch from the hub end. I cut two pins of
3/16" aluminum and glued them in the holes with a structural adhesive.
I have to say here that this is what I did as I forgot to ask him for
the factory recommended procedure. If anyone else is having this
problem, I would suggest calling for the exact recommendations.
Lowell
From: Sacha
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 10:41 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
That's great info... Lowell/All, what kind of cruise
characteristics (speed, rpm, fuel consumption) do you get out of it?
I am actually looking for a prop for a Kitfox IV - 80hp. Thinking
Warp or Ivoprop or a wooden one by a local maker. I'd also consider a
second hand one if anyone has one they want to sell?
Sacha
On Mar 2, 2013, at 4:45, "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Toodie and bob,
My Model IV - 80 HP with 68" Warp prop is pitched at 23=C2=B0.
My climb RPM is not as great as Rick's - 5200 but and I am still fairly
early in the flying on this airplane - 45 hours. Things may change, but
I often see 1300 fpm climb and cruise is pretty good.
Lowell
From: Richard Weiss
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 6:48 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Toodie and Bob,
I have my Warp Drive prop set for 17 degrees. It seems the
engine/plane combination is 'comfortable' at the pitch setting. It's
very smooth and I get about 5600--5700 RPM on take off, although takeoff
is so quick I barely have time to look at the tach.
Rick Weiss
Series V (Skystar s/n 1) Speedster:-)
Rotax 912S, Dynon Sky View
Spruce Creek Fly In, FL
MDKitfox@aol.com
On Mar 1, 2013, at 6:52 PM, rtmarshall wrote:
Hello Kitfox flyers out in the hinterland, I am sure there is a
segment of the group that use's the 70" warpdrive prop on their 80HP KF.
As a starting point for pitch what seems to be the # ? I am
thinking around 21* pitch, might be too much " what does the group
think? Thanks much for your input and thoughts on the subject. Blue
Skies.
Toodie & Bob Marshall
Beckwourth, CA
KF/4/1200 flying
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Warpdrive ! Scotty! |
Sacha,
WOW, that is great information, did not expect all the leg work but I
thank you for the research and the post. I am not currently running a
MAP gauge but it looks like I will be putting one in. I=99ll keep
the group posted, currently have the plane down and gutted for annual.
Lloyd C
Fox5 912ul IVO IFA
Northern Mi.
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 7:41 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Reposting with pics rather than tables! Sorry about that!
Hi Jim, Lowell, Stan et al,
I=99ve been learning a lot in this conversation, thanks for your
inputs. Today I woke up early and decided to go and read up the Rotax
documentation.... Here is what I found:
- Rotax service letter SL-912-016 / SL-914-014 (search for the
later on ROAN as if you search for the former it does not appear for
some reason) is entitled =9CEssential Information Regarding Engine
behavior, Performance and Manifold Pressure Data for Rotax 912 and 914
Series=9D. Section 3.1.4 specifies that a MAP gauge *must* be
fitted when using an in flight adjustable prop. Presumably so that one
does not load the engine excessively with RPM too low.
- The Operators manual (Ed 3, Rev. 0, September 01/2012) has a
table on page 5-3 of recommended RPM/MAP settings for the 912 engines
with variable pitch propellers which I=99ve reproduced here:
* It looks like the MAP of 26.3 for 4300 RPM is wrong in the above
table. If I check the graph in Fig. 2 on page 5-2, for 4300 RPM I read
off 24.3, so I guess there=99s a misprint there. The other numbers
look ok and appear to make sense.
- In my case, I don=99t have space for a MAP gauge on my
panel, but I already have a Floscan fuel monitor/gauge. I=99m
wondering if that could be substituted for the MAP gauge? After all,
fuel burn tells me how much energy I=99m feeding into the engine,
so it should be very closely correlated to power developed. And my fuel
return line goes back to the gascolator (downstream of the fuel flow
sensor), so the fuel slow sensor should be measuring net fuel
consumption. I=99m just not sure how accurate/responsive it is to
changes. Anyway, I=99ve used the fuel consumption (Fig 2 on page
5-2) of the Operators manual and derived the following table. Here,
I=99ve reported the power requirement of the propeller rather than
the max engine output, since the former is what is almost perfectly
proportional to fuel flow, as can be verified by the fact that the last
column (giving fuel consumption in L/h per HP developed) is almost
constant. Data is from pages 5-2 & 5-3 of the operator manual (corrected
for the misprint I mentioned above)
The fuel consumption numbers appear to make sense and to be
similar to what e.g. Stan was reporting.
Sacha
On Mar 16, 2013, at 2:23, James Shumaker <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
It should be no problem to run that way. Rotax reccomends against
running the engine at full throttle if less than 5200 rpm can be
maintained (as in a climb).
Jim Shumaker
Kitfox III
1100 hours
Rotax 912 ul
Warp drive 3 blade ground adjustable.
_____
From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Fri, March 15, 2013 9:13:33 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
I wonder if this would be a good idea without a manifold pressure gauge.
It sort of sounds like the no nos about lugging an automobile engine.
Lowell
From: Lloyd <mailto:7suds@Chartermi.net> & Lorrie Cudnohufsky
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 6:30 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Stan, All,
I either read or heard somewhere that with the IFA prop you can fire
wall the engine and trim the prop to 5500 RPM for your max cruise speed,
any experience with that theory of operation?
Lloyd
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan Specht
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 12:35 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
LLoyd-
I get about 5400 rpm static run-up with my 70" IVO prop in full
take-off/climb pitch. It can easily redline during takeoff, since I do
not have any stop washers on the prop. I would not let anyone else fly
the aircraft, since it could be easy to over-rev during takeoff. Not
sure if I would recommend this situation to anyone else, but I have lots
of hours on the a/c and am very used to its abilities. I usually climb
out at 60-65 mph ias and 10 deg. flaps with great success. In cruise I
set the throttle at about 5500 rpm and bring the rpm to about 5200 rpm
with prop pitch. (Anything below about 5200 I begin seeing a slower
speed.) I see about 3.7-3.8 gph in this setting for about a true
airspeed of 115 mph.( A friend that has flown with me thinks I get
closer to 120 mph at this setting.) If I want to burn 4 gph I can get
about 120 mph. Not bad on 80 hp.
Stan
-----Original Message-----
From: Lloyd & Lorrie Cudnohufsky < <mailto:7suds@Chartermi.net>
7suds@Chartermi.net>
kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 10, 2013 12:59 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Stan,
I installed the same prop with a 812ul behind it on my model 5, I only
have about 60 hours on it and am very pleased with the performance, was
wondering if you would be willing to share how you trim your prop for
takeoff, cruise, etc, also did you set the stop nuts on the screw travel
to limit the high and low ends of your pitch adjustment?
Lloyd C
Model 5 Outback 912ul IVO IFA
Northern Mi.
From: <mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com>
owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [
<mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com?>
mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan Specht
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Yes, it's the three-blade Ultralight model. I frequently fly in
mountainous areas as well. I love my Model IV!!!
Stan
-----Original Message-----
From: Sacha < <mailto:uuccio@gmail.com> uuccio@gmail.com>
kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Mon, Mar 4, 2013 5:36 am
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Stan,
That sounds great to me! Is that the 3-blade model? There is a lot of
mountainous terrain where I fly so I'm beginning to think it makes sense
for me to go that route.
Sacha
(Kitfox IV rebuild, 80hp, Sicily.... Almost done!)
On Mar 4, 2013, at 7:13, Stan Specht < <mailto:sourdostan@aol.com>
sourdostan@aol.com> wrote:
Sacha-
I fly a Speedster Model IV with an 80 hp. 912 . For the past 1500
hours+ (1947 hrs. TT) I have used a 70" IVO cabin-adjustable prop. I
wouldn't fly behind anything else, even though it takes a bit of
maintenance once and awhile. I cruise around 52-5300 rpm at 115 mph,
burn under 4 gph and can get 120 mph if I goose it up to about 4 gph. My
climb out, even here in the Mile High City, is real positive. I wouldn't
be able to get this performance without this prop. Also, I fly a lot of
cross country and really like this prop for this purpose.
Stan Specht
Denver, Colorado
-----Original Message-----
From: Sacha < <mailto:uuccio@gmail.com> uuccio@gmail.com>
kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 3, 2013 2:19 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Lowell,
Thanks for the detailed info!
I=99m also leaning towards a 3-blade 68=9D. I know this is
very different from a wooden fixed pitch prop, but I=99m wondering
whether I should spend the extra money and get an in-flight adjustable
pitch since I plan to be doing some cruising around with the plane once
I get comfortable with it. If anyone has any insight/experience there,
I=99d appreciate hearing it.
Sacha
From: <mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com>
owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [
<mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com?>
mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Sent: Saturday, 02 March, 2013 16:20
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Sacha,
Most of my numbers are very preliminary. And after flying the actual
test phases, it was mostly to put the required 40 hours on it and I
throttled back because distance was not as important as time and I
didn't want to burn more gas than was necessary. So numbers are not
finalized.
I was getting about 100 mph at 5000 RPM. During the test phase in
probably 85-90 degree days, climb was very close to 1000 fpm. The 1300
I mentioned was at a temp in the high 50s to low 60s. As I do the
longer cross country flights fuel burn will be more apparent. I chose
the 68" prop because that is what was recommended by the guys I knew
that have been running the Warp prop.
One issue I did have with the Warp Prop is that one blade would change
pitch one degree after running for a short while. I would re-pitch it
and it would change the one degree again. I contacted Warp and this is
there explanation. The aluminum collar is placed in the mold and the
resin and fabric are the inserted and cured under pressure.
Occasionally the resin will shrink away from the aluminum collar. He
explained that is the reason for the holes drilled through the collar at
180=C2=B0. The resin is supposed to run into the holes and act as a
pinning mechanism. Apparently this was not working on my prop and he
suggested I pin with aluminum pins.
I drilled two 3/16" holes through the collar and into the hub about 3/8"
deep. and about an inch from the hub end. I cut two pins of 3/16"
aluminum and glued them in the holes with a structural adhesive. I
have to say here that this is what I did as I forgot to ask him for the
factory recommended procedure. If anyone else is having this problem, I
would suggest calling for the exact recommendations.
Lowell
From: <mailto:uuccio@gmail.com> Sacha
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
That's great info... Lowell/All, what kind of cruise characteristics
(speed, rpm, fuel consumption) do you get out of it?
I am actually looking for a prop for a Kitfox IV - 80hp. Thinking Warp
or Ivoprop or a wooden one by a local maker. I'd also consider a second
hand one if anyone has one they want to sell?
Sacha
On Mar 2, 2013, at 4:45, "Lowell Fitt" < <mailto:lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
lcfitt@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Toodie and bob,
My Model IV - 80 HP with 68" Warp prop is pitched at 23=C2=B0. My climb
RPM is not as great as Rick's - 5200 but and I am still fairly early in
the flying on this airplane - 45 hours. Things may change, but I often
see 1300 fpm climb and cruise is pretty good.
Lowell
From: <mailto:MDKitfox@aol.com> Richard Weiss
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Toodie and Bob,
I have my Warp Drive prop set for 17 degrees. It seems the engine/plane
combination is 'comfortable' at the pitch setting. It's very smooth and
I get about 5600--5700 RPM on take off, although takeoff is so quick I
barely have time to look at the tach.
Rick Weiss
Series V (Skystar s/n 1) Speedster:-)
Rotax 912S, Dynon Sky View
Spruce Creek Fly In, FL
<mailto:MDKitfox@aol.com> MDKitfox@aol.com
On Mar 1, 2013, at 6:52 PM, rtmarshall wrote:
Hello Kitfox flyers out in the hinterland, I am sure there is a segment
of the group that use's the 70" warpdrive prop on their 80HP KF. As a
starting point for pitch what seems to be the # ? I am thinking
around 21* pitch, might be too much " what does the group think? Thanks
much for your input and thoughts on the subject. Blue Skies.
Toodie & Bob Marshall
Beckwourth, CA
KF/4/1200 flying
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| Subject: | Warpdrive ! Scotty! |
Dave> Numbers are not 100 % correct on 2nd
Dave> chart
Dave> the litre to gal.hour conversion alone does not look correct
Seems ok to me, am using 3.785 L/US Gal, then having Excel round to the
first decimal place. Which number seems wrong?
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| Subject: | Re: Warpdrive ! Scotty! |
my mistake --
----- Original Message -----
From: Sacha
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 12:45 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Warpdrive ! Scotty!
Dave> Numbers are not 100 % correct on 2nd
Dave> chart
Dave> the litre to gal.hour conversion alone does not look correct
Seems ok to me, am using 3.785 L/US Gal, then having Excel round to
the first decimal place. Which number seems wrong?
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