Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:58 PM - Fuel Flow thru Facet pump (clemwehner)
2. 01:15 PM - Re: Fuel Flow thru Facet pump (bob noffs)
3. 02:05 PM - Re: Fuel Flow thru Facet pump (clemwehner)
4. 02:27 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Flow thru Facet pump (bob noffs)
5. 06:39 PM - Re: 582 engine side mount brackets (Kitfox_Sed)
6. 06:51 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Flow thru Facet pump (Lowell Fitt)
7. 07:22 PM - Re: 582 engine side mount brackets (Kitfox_Sed)
8. 07:32 PM - Re: Re: 582 engine side mount brackets (Patrick Reilly)
9. 08:48 PM - Re: Fuel Flow thru Facet pump (clemwehner)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Fuel Flow thru Facet pump |
Fuel Flow thru Facet pump
My son and I just did the fuel flow testing on our classic KF-IV with 912 and plastic
header tank behind the seat. Before we did the test we decided to determine
the best case fuel flow. We simply connected a 5/16 hose to the fuel tank
and routed it alongside the aircraft fuel line through the fuselage ending at
the carb. There was only a facet fuel pump in the line and nothing else-- no
fittings, no valves, etc. The flow was a measly 4 ounces per minute, way below
the guideline of 20 oz/min (1.5 X fuel requirements of the 912 at takeoff power
and attitude). The results would undoubtedly be worse when running the fuel
through the actual aircraft lines with its fittings, valves, and 912 pump.
We suspected the facet pump was limiting the fuel flow, so we took the pump out
of the line and used just hose from the tank. This produced 40 oz/minten times
more flow and double the flow test requirements.
We disassembled the facet pump and found it to be very simple. It has two one-way
valves, one in each direction. The valve on the inlet side is held closed by
a very weak spring that is easily opened by about 1 psi or less. BUT!!! it only
opens about 1/16th inch and allows only a small amount of fuel to flow through
it. Then the valve hits a much stronger spring that could open more, but
only with the force generated by the running pump. So, it is true that gravity
flow will pass through a facet pump, but it is very limited in volume to just
a small stream, really not much more than a trickle.
Lots of people use facet pumps in their fuel systems, but I dont see how it is
possible that they met the gravity flow requirements. Does anyone have any experience
with this that can offer some advice? It seems that without a facet
pump, gravity flow meets the flow requirements, but with a facet pump it doesnt
even come close. Do pilots with this situation just ignore the test requirements?
Your thoughts most appreciated,
Clem
KFIV 912
Oklahoma
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407934#407934
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flow thru Facet pump |
there are many different facet pumps and their interior configuration is
different too. some have check valves, others don't. at least one shuts off
flow when the current is off[sounds like the one you have] . no one at acs
has a clue from what i could tell in my last conversation with them about
facet pumps. they sold me an inline backup elec. pump. when i turned off
the electric to my ''backup'' pump the fuel flow stopped instantly. very
different than the 40105 or 40104 which allow fuel to flow thru them. my
40104 easily allows flow thru it for a jab 3300 x 1.5
bob noffs
On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 2:57 PM, clemwehner <clemwehner@sbcglobal.net> wrote
:
>
>
> Fuel Flow thru Facet pump
>
> My son and I just did the fuel flow testing on our classic KF-IV with 912
> and plastic header tank behind the seat. Before we did the test we decide
d
> to determine the best case fuel flow. We simply connected a 5/16 hose to
> the fuel tank and routed it alongside the aircraft fuel line through the
> fuselage ending at the carb. There was only a facet fuel pump in the line
> and nothing else-- no fittings, no valves, etc. The flow was a measly 4
> ounces per minute, way below the guideline of 20 oz/min (1.5 X fuel
> requirements of the 912 at takeoff power and attitude). The results woul
d
> undoubtedly be worse when running the fuel through the actual aircraft
> lines with its fittings, valves, and 912 pump.
>
> We suspected the facet pump was limiting the fuel flow, so we took the
> pump out of the line and used just hose from the tank. This produced 40
> oz/min=97ten times more flow and double the flow test requirements.
>
> We disassembled the facet pump and found it to be very simple. It has two
> one-way valves, one in each direction. The valve on the inlet side is hel
d
> closed by a very weak spring that is easily opened by about 1 psi or less
.
> BUT!!! it only opens about 1/16th inch and allows only a small amount of
> fuel to flow through it. Then the valve hits a much stronger spring that
> could open more, but only with the force generated by the running pump.
> So, it is true that gravity flow will pass through a facet pump, but it
is
> very limited in volume to just a small stream, really not much more than
a
> trickle.
>
> Lots of people use facet pumps in their fuel systems, but I don=92t see h
ow
> it is possible that they met the gravity flow requirements. Does anyone
> have any experience with this that can offer some advice? It seems that
> without a facet pump, gravity flow meets the flow requirements, but with
a
> facet pump it doesn=92t even come close. Do pilots with this situation ju
st
> ignore the test requirements?
>
> Your thoughts most appreciated,
>
> Clem
> KFIV 912
> Oklahoma
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407934#407934
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flow thru Facet pump |
We have Facet 40105 and facet 40106 pumps and both deliver the same volume of fuel
through them at the gravity flow below the header tank.
We also get fuel flow through them at gravity flow, but the volume is only 4 oz
per minute which is not nearly enough to meet the test requirements.
thanks,
Clem
--------
Clem
Oklahoma
Kitfox IV-912, under construction since 1991
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407938#407938
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flow thru Facet pump |
i guess ''gravity flow'' can be ambiguous. 2-2.5 psi can be gravity
generated or it is about what my mechanical pump puts out , resulting in 15
gph.about 32 oz/min. but i guess a header tank is usually a lot lower than
a wing tank. just thinking out loud now i KNOW my gascolator drains my cowl
tank probably a quart a minute and that is thru a 40104 and no pumps
running. i guess i couldn't say that about the 40105 because it caused the
carb float to leak right off the bat and i replaced it.
bob noffs
On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 4:04 PM, clemwehner <clemwehner@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> We have Facet 40105 and facet 40106 pumps and both deliver the same volume
> of fuel through them at the gravity flow below the header tank.
>
> We also get fuel flow through them at gravity flow, but the volume is only
> 4 oz per minute which is not nearly enough to meet the test requirements.
>
> thanks,
> Clem
>
> --------
> Clem
> Oklahoma
> Kitfox IV-912, under construction since 1991
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407938#407938
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: 582 engine side mount brackets |
Pat,
The Lord Mounts are Diamond Plate H6140. Leading Edge Airfoils has them. See: http://store.leadingedgeairfoils.com/product_info.php?products_id=7593
-- Paul S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407951#407951
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flow thru Facet pump |
Clem,
This was recently discussed in another forum. There was a link to the FAA
site that gives the test procedures and necessary results. What I took from
it was that there are different requirements for Gravity Flow systems and
Fuel Pump systems. I think what I took from that is that some designs do
not have any fuel pump in the system whatsoever. Since ours does have the
mechanical and some have the electric (facet) we might be comparing apples
to oranges.
One question I have is, are you measuring flow with only fuel in the header
tank, or are you measuring flow with minimal fuel in the wing tanks as
well. One of the guys in the other discussion mentioned the numerous Rotax
powered airplanes with low wings and essentially no head leading to fuel
flow and they would have zero flow without the engine driven pump or an
inline pump (facet). The discussion also mentioned that the engine driven
pump will lift fuel significantly.
Don't know for sure on all this, but it is something to think about.
Lowell
--------------------------------------------------
From: "clemwehner" <clemwehner@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 2:04 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Flow thru Facet pump
>
> We have Facet 40105 and facet 40106 pumps and both deliver the same volume
> of fuel through them at the gravity flow below the header tank.
>
> We also get fuel flow through them at gravity flow, but the volume is only
> 4 oz per minute which is not nearly enough to meet the test requirements.
>
> thanks,
> Clem
>
> --------
> Clem
> Oklahoma
> Kitfox IV-912, under construction since 1991
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407938#407938
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 582 engine side mount brackets |
Update: The official Lord part number for these mounts is 150PD-30.
The H6140 is the Leading Edge part number.
-- Paul S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407955#407955
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 582 engine side mount brackets |
Paul, Thanks for the info.
Pat Reilly
On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Kitfox_Sed <prsedlac@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Update: The official Lord part number for these mounts is 150PD-30.
>
> The H6140 is the Leading Edge part number.
>
> -- Paul S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407955#407955
>
>
--
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford,IL
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flow thru Facet pump |
Lowell,
We wanted to know what best case was with fuel flowing directly out of the wing
tank, so we hooked a spare hose to the wing tank outlet and routed it thru the
cockpit along the same path that the normal fuel lines run ending at the carb.
We tried it with just the hose and then tried it again going thru a spare
facet pump that we have. We did not involve the header since we were looking for
best case.
Without the facet pump in the line there was plenty of fuel flow, but with the
restriction of the facet pump (not running), there wasn't nearly enough to meet
the test requirements for gravity flow. A lot of guys use facet pumps and I
wonder if they actually conducted the flow test. I can't see how anyone could
get the required flow with a facet pump in the line at 25 degrees attitude, since
we couldn't get it at 12 degrees attitude setting on the gear.
Fuel will definitely gravity flow through a facet pump, but not nearly at the volume
that's required. The recent EAA webinar said that 70% of homebuilders never
actually do the flow test, but just assume that it'll be fine since their
airplanes are based on existing designs. That's scary.
So we're at the point of doing the test with the actual aircraft's plumbing and
we know it will be worse than our best case test using just the hose and no fittings,
valves, etc.
I wonder if any Kitfox builders who have facet pumps have achieved the required
150% flow with actual testing. If not, what did they do about it? Would a bypass
loop around the facet help, or do they just document the flow shortfall
and make a flight restriction requiring use of the fuel pump in takeoff and high
power climbs?
thanks for the help,
Clem
KF-IV, 912
Oklahoma
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407958#407958
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