Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:07 AM - All New List Digest Format!! (Matt Dralle)
2. 01:43 AM - Re: MK III X WING SPAR H SECTION (Jim Ballenger)
3. 08:26 AM - Funnel (EnaudZ@aol.com)
4. 08:53 AM - Re: Funnel (Fackler, Ken)
5. 08:59 AM - Re: Funnel (George Alexander)
6. 09:20 AM - Re: Funnel (Fackler, Ken)
7. 10:26 AM - Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) (H MITCHELL)
8. 10:47 AM - Re: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) (Fackler, Ken)
9. 11:23 AM - Re: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) (John Williamson)
10. 12:16 PM - Re: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) (Duncan McBride)
11. 12:17 PM - Flutter (Leonard S.Voelker)
12. 01:59 PM - Re: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) (Richard Harris)
13. 02:02 PM - Fw: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) (Richard Harris)
14. 02:03 PM - Re: Flutter (Larry Bourne)
15. 02:33 PM - Re: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) (Wayne Boyter)
16. 03:11 PM - Re: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) (Bill Futrell)
17. 03:23 PM - Gascolators for auto fuel (Duncan McBride)
18. 04:15 PM - Re: Gascolators for auto fuel (Bill Futrell)
19. 04:27 PM - Re: Gascolators for auto fuel (Rick & Martha Neilsen)
20. 06:21 PM - Re: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) (John Cooley)
21. 06:31 PM - Re: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) (Larry Cottrell)
22. 06:41 PM - Re: Flutter (Kevin Jones)
23. 06:51 PM - Re: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) (Richard Swiderski)
24. 07:17 PM - Re: Gascolators for auto fuel (Richard Pike)
25. 07:18 PM - Safety Wire fuel line clamps (Richard Pike)
26. 07:38 PM - Flutter articles (Leonard S.Voelker)
27. 07:52 PM - Re: Flutter articles (bob n)
28. 11:14 PM - New, NEW List Digest Format... (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | All New List Digest Format!! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
I've just finished up some awesome code that will completely change your
thinking about how email Digests should work and look! Yeah, I'm kind of
proud of it, that is true... :-)
What you'll be getting in the new List Digest message is the
following: The main message will contain the new text-based index I
introduced a few weeks back. But here's where things get
different... Instead of simply including all of the day's posts in line
within the message, there will now be included two enclosures - one with a
HTML encoded version of the Digests, and another with the usual text-only
version of the Digests.
I think you're really going to like the new HTML enclosure of the
Digests. All of the Indexes at the top are now hyperlinked to the actual
posts and there are hyperlinks at the top of each post that will:
o Take you back to the Index
o Take you to the next post
o Take you to the previous post
o Allow you to respond to the LIST regarding the message
o Allow you to respond directly to the POSTER regarding the message
You'll have to check it out to appreciate the full goodness of the new
format! :-)
The text-only version is basically exactly the same data that has been
normally sent in line within the message.
You'll also note that the filenames of the enclosures are such that they
can be conveniently placed in a personal "archive" directory for future
reference.
Hope you enjoy the new Digest format!!!
Oh, and don't forget about the Fund Raiser! :-)
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: MK III X WING SPAR H SECTION |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Ballenger" <ulpilot@cavtel.net>
Steven/Richard
Thanks for your answers and advise. I think I will clamp and if necessary
wedge the ends to close the gaps.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: <SGreenpg@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: MK III X WING SPAR H SECTION
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: SGreenpg@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 11/30/02 6:54:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> ulpilot@cavtel.net writes:
>
> >
> > I am installing the H section in the spar. I was expecting to have to
> > grease the bracket but decided to try it without grease first. The H
> > section just slide right in. I think it may be a little loose. I have
the
> > H section in the spar with the bolt in place and 4 clecos at 10.25 "
from
> > the center of the 1/2" bolt. Now my questions: I removed the bolt and
> > measured a 1/32 " gap between the spar tube and the H section at the
bolt
> > hole. Is this acceptable? Can I squeeze it down with the bolt while I
> > make up the rivets? I removed one of the clecos and measured a 1/16 "
gap
> > between the H section and the wing spar. Is this acceptable? Can I
take a
> > clamp and squeeze the spar down to the H section while drilling the
holes
> > and installing clecos?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Jim Ballenger
> > Flying a FS KXP 447
> > Building a MK III X
> > Virginia Beach, VA
> >
> >
>
> Jim,
> In my opinion the answer to all of your questions is yes. One other thing
> that I did was to make a wedge from a 2X6 to keep the ends of the "H"
section
> tubes pushed out against the inner wall of the spar tube. Then I used a
> large C-clamp while I was drilling and riveting.
>
> Steven Green
> N58SG
> Back in the air as of yesterday
>
>
Message 3
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: EnaudZ@aol.com
Would MR Funnel [water seperator] prevent
water in fuel
Message 4
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Fackler, Ken" <kfackler@ameritech.net>
I use one and I would say Yes, conditionally. Certainly the Mr Funnel
prevents you from pouring water from your transport container into your
airplane's fuel tanks. I was skeptical of their claim, so I even
deliberately put water into the funnel and let it stand. It didn't come out!
However, there are other ways to get water in the system, notably from
condensation during periods of high humidity.
Using the Mr Funnel or similar device is certainly a huge safety plus, IMHO.
-Ken Fackler
Mark II / 503
Rochester MI
----- Original Message -----
From: <EnaudZ@aol.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: Funnel
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: EnaudZ@aol.com
>
> Would MR Funnel [water seperator] prevent
> water in fuel
>
>
Message 5
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: George Alexander <gtalexander@att.net>
EnaudZ@aol.com wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: EnaudZ@aol.com
>
> Would MR Funnel [water seperator] prevent
> water in fuel
>
> _
From the material that I have read, it will only keep the water out of the
fuel if you DON'T run pre-mixed through it. The oil in the pre-mix will
eventually render it ineffective in stopping water.
George Alexander
Original Firestar
http://gtalexander.home.att.net
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 6
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Fackler, Ken" <kfackler@ameritech.net>
George brings up an interesting point. It and others are addressed on the Mr
Funnel website's Filter Tips page at:
http://www.mrfunnel.com/Filter_Tips/index.html
For maximum safety, it looks like you need to let the gas sit long enough
for the water to settle, filter the fuel from one container to another, then
add the oil, then filter it again when adding it to the airplane's fuel
system. And let's not forget to ground everything as we go, right boys? ;-)
It does not appear that the funnel is damaged in any way by filtering
pre-mix, however. Of course, this is according to the company literature!
I've left the question on their Technical Support voice mail system and I'll
post the reply as soon as I hear from them.
-Ken
It
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Alexander" <gtalexander@att.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Funnel
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: George Alexander <gtalexander@att.net>
>
> EnaudZ@aol.com wrote:
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: EnaudZ@aol.com
> >
> > Would MR Funnel [water seperator] prevent
> > water in fuel
> >
> > _
>
> From the material that I have read, it will only keep the water out of the
> fuel if you DON'T run pre-mixed through it. The oil in the pre-mix will
> eventually render it ineffective in stopping water.
>
> George Alexander
> Original Firestar
> http://gtalexander.home.att.net
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
My Mk3/912 has the standard two 5 Gal tank set up. While pondering the possibilities
of fuel starvation with the plumbing now installed it now looks like a fuel
selector valve is mandatory.
The current system has a suction line from each tank going up to a Tee located
between the tops of the tanks. With this arrangement the first tank to run out
of gas will allow the fuel line to suck air and down we go. Ideally both tanks
would be emptied at the same rate and I would not ever have one tank empty before
the other but this assumption is not positive enough for a man-rated system
in my opinion.
Location of a RIGHT-LEFT-OFF fuel selector valve will require some planning to
avoid the John Denver (and others I'm sure) hazard. Reaching the tank area over
my shoulder, while strapped in, and switching a valve that I can't see sounds
risky.
This forces me to find a location where I can see the valve position and re-route
the fuel lines to the new location. The system cost will be in longer fuel
lines and several more potential leak points but the benefit will be a more reliable
fuel system that is easy to operate.
I am sure I am not the first one to faced this problem and would like to see what
some others have done.
Duane the plane, Tallahassee, FL
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Fackler, Ken" <kfackler@ameritech.net>
Duane:
I absolutely don't mean to argue you with you, so please hear my comments in
that vein. You should certainly do whatever makes you and your airplane
safe.
I have the "standard" configuration you describe on my Mark II with a 503. I
have a see-thru panel right between the seats that lets me monitor the fuel
easily and they feed very, very evenly. In fact, in just over 30 hours since
I got the plane flying in late September, I've not been able to detect any
assymetric levels in the two tanks.
It would appear, at least in my case, that there's not much chance of one
tank feeding to empty before the other. Frankly, I'm very fussy about fuel
level and rarely let myself get below the two gallon mark. My first
inadvertent power-off landing was due to running out of gas. Once burned and
all that.
Of course, I have no idea how strong the draw is on your 912. Good luck with
your setup either way.
-Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s)
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
>
> My Mk3/912 has the standard two 5 Gal tank set up. While pondering the
possibilities of fuel starvation with the plumbing now installed it now
looks like a fuel selector valve is mandatory.
> The current system has a suction line from each tank going up to a Tee
located between the tops of the tanks. With this arrangement the first tank
to run out of gas will allow the fuel line to suck air and down we go.
Ideally both tanks would be emptied at the same rate and I would not ever
have one tank empty before the other but this assumption is not positive
enough for a man-rated system in my opinion.
> Location of a RIGHT-LEFT-OFF fuel selector valve will require some
planning to avoid the John Denver (and others I'm sure) hazard. Reaching the
tank area over my shoulder, while strapped in, and switching a valve that I
can't see sounds risky.
> This forces me to find a location where I can see the valve position and
re-route the fuel lines to the new location. The system cost will be in
longer fuel lines and several more potential leak points but the benefit
will be a more reliable fuel system that is easy to operate.
> I am sure I am not the first one to faced this problem and would like to
see what some others have done.
>
> Duane the plane, Tallahassee, FL
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot@attbi.com>
Duane and Listers,
I also run the standard 2 five gallon tanks in the stock configuration.
During the process of calibrating the fuel probes, the fuel pump has had to
suck the tanks dry several times.
My unusable fuel came out to be 11 ounces in the front tank and 16 ounces in
the back tank. The variation is due to the placement of my fuel pick-up
tubes and the fore & aft arrangement.
During normal operations, the difference between tanks has never been more
than .5 gallon.
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
N49KK, Kolb Kolbra, Jabiru 2200, 146 hours
http://home.attbi.com/~kolbrapilot/
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Duncan McBride <duncanmcbride@comcast.net>
Hey Duane,
I have 3.1 hours on my Mark III/912. It has the stock two-tank setup. So
far I have never seen the tanks anything but dead even. The fuel pickups
meet at a T fitting and the single line goes through a filter and then a
single fuel shutoff. From the fuel shutoff to the electric fuel pump is
about 24". The fuel lines to the T fitting are always full of fuel, and the
tanks continuously siphon between each other to keep the level the same in
each tank.
I have the line loop down below the bottom of the tanks and up to the fuel
pump so there is a low point. I had planned to put a drain there, but I
realized that water really would not collect there unless there was so much
water in the tanks it would feed through the pickups, which are about 1/2"
above the bottom of the tank. The DAR who inspected the plane suggested
making a tool from a hose and a primer bulb, so I could suck up whatever was
on the bottom of the tanks and inspect it. I've been doing that mornings
when I get to the field. So far with rain, humidity, early morning sun,
etc., I haven't found any water in the tanks yet. I'll keep looking.
----- Original Message -----
From: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s)
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
>
> My Mk3/912 has the standard two 5 Gal tank set up. While pondering the
possibilities of fuel starvation with the plumbing now installed it now
looks like a fuel selector valve is mandatory.
> The current system has a suction line from each tank going up to a Tee
located between the tops of the tanks. With this arrangement the first tank
to run out of gas will allow the fuel line to suck air and down we go.
Ideally both tanks would be emptied at the same rate and I would not ever
have one tank empty before the other but this assumption is not positive
enough for a man-rated system in my opinion.
> Location of a RIGHT-LEFT-OFF fuel selector valve will require some
planning to avoid the John Denver (and others I'm sure) hazard. Reaching the
tank area over my shoulder, while strapped in, and switching a valve that I
can't see sounds risky.
> This forces me to find a location where I can see the valve position and
re-route the fuel lines to the new location. The system cost will be in
longer fuel lines and several more potential leak points but the benefit
will be a more reliable fuel system that is easy to operate.
> I am sure I am not the first one to faced this problem and would like to
see what some others have done.
>
> Duane the plane, Tallahassee, FL
>
>
Message 11
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Leonard S.Voelker" <lenvoelker@ccis.com>
To Steve Randolf and Kolbers,
Thank you very much all of you for your encouraging words about my being a readable
writer. At NASA I didn't have much success writing researchy type conference
papers. Since my retirement last April, I'm 66 years old now, I've been toying
with the idea of trying to write about flutter for Kitplanes, The Experimenter,
or Sport Aviation. I subscribe to all three. These periodicals, and indeed
most aviation magazines, seem to be almost completely devoid of articles on
flutter. This has been of concern to me for a long time. Perhaps it is really
an opportunity in desguise for me to contribute something meaningful back to
aviation, which I love and which has been so good to me. Posting to this list
has been my first attempt at this kind of writing style but it appears acceptable.
I'm not the brightest crayon in the box by any means but after some 40 years I
seem to have aborbed much from many others who are. Perhaps I can best serve now
by being sort of an interpreter of their genius. Besides, I.ve had a lot of
great experiences that need sharing.
I'm also learning so much from you listers in such a short time. Your multitude
of flutter experiences, shared so generously with me, indicate a genuine, widespread
thirst for credible information in this area. Perhaps we are all on to
something here.
Fly safe and flutter free.
Len Voelker
Kolb Mark III Xtra/?
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Harris" <rharris@magnolia-net.com>
Duane, My MK III ( ser# 233 ) has the same set up of fuel tanks, and fuel
lines. It has always amazed me that both tanks always have the exact same
amount of fuel in them, no matter what the level is. So I guess what I am
saying is the system works, so why got to all the trouble and expense, not
to mention adding more places for something to go wrong with the fuel
system, when what's there works just fine ??
My 2 cents worth...
Richard Harris
MK3 N912RH
Lewisville, Arkansas
----- Original Message -----
From: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s)
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
>
> My Mk3/912 has the standard two 5 Gal tank set up. While pondering the
possibilities of fuel starvation with the plumbing now installed it now
looks like a fuel selector valve is mandatory.
> The current system has a suction line from each tank going up to a Tee
located between the tops of the tanks. With this arrangement the first tank
to run out of gas will allow the fuel line to suck air and down we go.
Ideally both tanks would be emptied at the same rate and I would not ever
have one tank empty before the other but this assumption is not positive
enough for a man-rated system in my opinion.
> Location of a RIGHT-LEFT-OFF fuel selector valve will require some
planning to avoid the John Denver (and others I'm sure) hazard. Reaching the
tank area over my shoulder, while strapped in, and switching a valve that I
can't see sounds risky.
> This forces me to find a location where I can see the valve position and
re-route the fuel lines to the new location. The system cost will be in
longer fuel lines and several more potential leak points but the benefit
will be a more reliable fuel system that is easy to operate.
> I am sure I am not the first one to faced this problem and would like to
see what some others have done.
>
> Duane the plane, Tallahassee, FL
Message 13
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| Subject: | Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Harris" <rharris@magnolia-net.com>
Oh by the way Duane, my MK III also as a 912 on it, as indicated by the tail
number in my signature...
Richard Harris
MK3 N912RH
Lewisville, Arkansas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Harris" <rharris@magnolia-net.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s)
> Duane, My MK III ( ser# 233 ) has the same set up of fuel tanks, and fuel
> lines. It has always amazed me that both tanks always have the exact same
> amount of fuel in them, no matter what the level is. So I guess what I am
> saying is the system works, so why got to all the trouble and expense, not
> to mention adding more places for something to go wrong with the fuel
> system, when what's there works just fine ??
> My 2 cents worth...
>
> Richard Harris
> MK3 N912RH
> Lewisville, Arkansas
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
> To: "kolblist" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 12:25 PM
> Subject: Kolb-List: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s)
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
> >
> > My Mk3/912 has the standard two 5 Gal tank set up. While pondering the
> possibilities of fuel starvation with the plumbing now installed it now
> looks like a fuel selector valve is mandatory.
> > The current system has a suction line from each tank going up to a Tee
> located between the tops of the tanks. With this arrangement the first
tank
> to run out of gas will allow the fuel line to suck air and down we go.
> Ideally both tanks would be emptied at the same rate and I would not ever
> have one tank empty before the other but this assumption is not positive
> enough for a man-rated system in my opinion.
> > Location of a RIGHT-LEFT-OFF fuel selector valve will require some
> planning to avoid the John Denver (and others I'm sure) hazard. Reaching
the
> tank area over my shoulder, while strapped in, and switching a valve that
I
> can't see sounds risky.
> > This forces me to find a location where I can see the valve position and
> re-route the fuel lines to the new location. The system cost will be in
> longer fuel lines and several more potential leak points but the benefit
> will be a more reliable fuel system that is easy to operate.
> > I am sure I am not the first one to faced this problem and would like to
> see what some others have done.
> >
> > Duane the plane, Tallahassee, FL
>
>
Message 14
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
You might consider combining & editing the edu-messages you've sent to the
Kolb List, and email them to Sport Aviation. They're very amenable to this,
as evidenced by my own self-advertising last year which resulted in a
portion of my website being utilized in the B-17 article a while back. Your
messages were very informative, and very
read-able..................something that's not always true of "techies"
attempts. Go Gittum, Len ! ! ! Lar. Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard S.Voelker" <lenvoelker@ccis.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: Flutter
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Leonard S.Voelker" <lenvoelker@ccis.com>
>
> To Steve Randolf and Kolbers,
>
> Thank you very much all of you for your encouraging words about my being a
readable writer. At NASA I didn't have much success writing researchy type
conference papers. Since my retirement last April, I'm 66 years old now,
I've been toying with the idea of trying to write about flutter for
Kitplanes, The Experimenter, or Sport Aviation. I subscribe to all three.
These periodicals, and indeed most aviation magazines, seem to be almost
completely devoid of articles on flutter. This has been of concern to me for
a long time. Perhaps it is really an opportunity in desguise for me to
contribute something meaningful back to aviation, which I love and which has
been so good to me. Posting to this list has been my first attempt at this
kind of writing style but it appears acceptable.
>
> I'm not the brightest crayon in the box by any means but after some 40
years I seem to have aborbed much from many others who are. Perhaps I can
best serve now by being sort of an interpreter of their genius. Besides,
I.ve had a lot of great experiences that need sharing.
>
> I'm also learning so much from you listers in such a short time. Your
multitude of flutter experiences, shared so generously with me, indicate a
genuine, widespread thirst for credible information in this area. Perhaps
we are all on to something here.
>
> Fly safe and flutter free.
>
> Len Voelker
> Kolb Mark III Xtra/?
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Wayne Boyter" <boyter@mcsi.net>
I have a mark three, That had the gas lines feed from the top of the tanks.
When I had two hours on the plane, I run it out of gas because I was doing
touch & goes and always in a left hand trun. And I could not see both tanks.
One tank was always a little lower then the other one, So I put the fuel
pick- up lines in the bottom of the tanks with no shut off value. The fuel
stays much much more even, But alway looking for a better system.
Wayne Boyter
KOLB MARK 3
ROTAX 582
72"WARP DRIVE
250 hrs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s)
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
>
> My Mk3/912 has the standard two 5 Gal tank set up. While pondering the
possibilities of fuel starvation with the plumbing now installed it now
looks like a fuel selector valve is mandatory.
> The current system has a suction line from each tank going up to a Tee
located between the tops of the tanks. With this arrangement the first tank
to run out of gas will allow the fuel line to suck air and down we go.
Ideally both tanks would be emptied at the same rate and I would not ever
have one tank empty before the other but this assumption is not positive
enough for a man-rated system in my opinion.
> Location of a RIGHT-LEFT-OFF fuel selector valve will require some
planning to avoid the John Denver (and others I'm sure) hazard. Reaching the
tank area over my shoulder, while strapped in, and switching a valve that I
can't see sounds risky.
> This forces me to find a location where I can see the valve position and
re-route the fuel lines to the new location. The system cost will be in
longer fuel lines and several more potential leak points but the benefit
will be a more reliable fuel system that is easy to operate.
> I am sure I am not the first one to faced this problem and would like to
see what some others have done.
>
> Duane the plane, Tallahassee, FL
>
>
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bill Futrell" <Bill-Jo@prodigy.net>
Duane
The way I see that set-up is that it will draw from both tanks at
the same time. Those tanks will equalize with one another also. For example,
if your lines are full up to the carbs and you fill one of the tanks and not
the other one just take a little break and when you come back both tanks
will have the same amount of fuel.
I use the tee located on top with the line routed down under the
tanks into a gascolator and from there to a facet fuel pump and then to the
engine pump. Hope this helps.
Bill Futrell
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: H MITCHELL <mitchmnd@msn.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s)
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
>
> My Mk3/912 has the standard two 5 Gal tank set up. While pondering the
possibilities of fuel starvation with the plumbing now installed it now
looks like a fuel selector valve is mandatory.
> The current system has a suction line from each tank going up to a Tee
located between the tops of the tanks. With this arrangement the first tank
to run out of gas will allow the fuel line to suck air and down we go.
Ideally both tanks would be emptied at the same rate and I would not ever
have one tank empty before the other but this assumption is not positive
enough for a man-rated system in my opinion.
> Location of a RIGHT-LEFT-OFF fuel selector valve will require some
planning to avoid the John Denver (and others I'm sure) hazard. Reaching the
tank area over my shoulder, while strapped in, and switching a valve that I
can't see sounds risky.
> This forces me to find a location where I can see the valve position and
re-route the fuel lines to the new location. The system cost will be in
longer fuel lines and several more potential leak points but the benefit
will be a more reliable fuel system that is easy to operate.
> I am sure I am not the first one to faced this problem and would like to
see what some others have done.
>
> Duane the plane, Tallahassee, FL
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Gascolators for auto fuel |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Duncan McBride <duncanmcbride@comcast.net>
What kind of gascolator do you use? Until recently the only relatively
inexpensive one I could find at Aircraft Spruce wasn't for auto fuel.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Futrell" <Bill-Jo@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s)
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bill Futrell" <Bill-Jo@prodigy.net>
>
> Duane
> I use the tee located on top with the line routed down under the
> tanks into a gascolator and from there to a facet fuel pump and then to
the
> engine pump. Hope this helps.
> Bill Futrell
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Gascolators for auto fuel |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bill Futrell" <Bill-Jo@prodigy.net>
Duncan that is a good question! The one I am useing is the one from
Aircraft Spruce PN-10580 and I used the bracket PN-10371 to mount it with. I
just looked in the catalog and it does say not for auto fuel. As far as I
know the only difference is the aviation fuel has a higher octane,has dye in
it, and it still has lead and it is much cleaner.
I just talked to a A&P friend of mine tonight if he knows why and he
does not. He said he has converted some G/A planes over to auto gas and the
only thing he had to do was change some parts in the carbs. I think I will
call Spruce tomorrow and see what they say. I have been flying all summer
with it and have not had any trouble.
Are there any builders out there that are useing a gascolator from
Aircraft Spruce. I would like to hear from ya.
Bill Futrell
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Duncan McBride <duncanmcbride@comcast.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: Gascolators for auto fuel
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Duncan McBride
<duncanmcbride@comcast.net>
>
> What kind of gascolator do you use? Until recently the only relatively
> inexpensive one I could find at Aircraft Spruce wasn't for auto fuel.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Futrell" <Bill-Jo@prodigy.net>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s)
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bill Futrell" <Bill-Jo@prodigy.net>
> >
> > Duane
> > I use the tee located on top with the line routed down under
the
> > tanks into a gascolator and from there to a facet fuel pump and then to
> the
> > engine pump. Hope this helps.
> > Bill Futrell
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Gascolators for auto fuel |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rick & Martha Neilsen" <neilsenrm@cs.com>
My fuel systems has bottom feeds from the stock tanks to a tee then to a
gascolator (which is at the low point of my fuel system) thru my fuel
filter, then to my back up electric pump to my primary electric pump that
has a built in pressure regulator thru a shut off valve to the carburetors.
My start up procedure is as follows: During preflight I sample the fuel from
the gascolator, then I switch on the back up pump to prime the carbs and
watch for fuel flow in a small section of the fuel system that has a
transparent fuel line. I then switch off the back up pump and prime the
engine with the accelerator pumps in my carbs. I then pull the engine thru
at least three cylinders noting the compression. I then start the engine and
taxi to my runway using only the primary fuel pump I will not get to the
runway if the primary pump isn't running. Just before take off I turn on my
back up pump which I leave on during take offs and landings. Most of the
fuel system and procedures are things that are common in general aviation
especially the fuel sampling from the low point of the fuel system before
each flight. And yes I have seen water and ice in general aviation fuel
systems. I purchased my gascolator from great planes aircraft and all it
sees is auto fuel.
My $.02 worth
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIII
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Duncan McBride
Subject: Kolb-List: Gascolators for auto fuel
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Duncan McBride <duncanmcbride@comcast.net>
What kind of gascolator do you use? Until recently the only relatively
inexpensive one I could find at Aircraft Spruce wasn't for auto fuel.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Futrell" <Bill-Jo@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s)
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bill Futrell" <Bill-Jo@prodigy.net>
>
> Duane
> I use the tee located on top with the line routed down under the
> tanks into a gascolator and from there to a facet fuel pump and then to
the
> engine pump. Hope this helps.
> Bill Futrell
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Cooley" <johnc@datasync.com>
Duane,
I agree with what the majority of the responses have said about running two
tanks with the line going into a single tee. My Firestar II is set-up this
way also and I will sometimes fill the front tank up with three gallons or
so in the back tank and go fly for an hour or so and when I check the fuel
level it will be even. I have never been able to see a difference in the
levels. I wouldn't do this with only a gallon of fuel in the back tank.
Wouldn't want to test old Murphy ya know. There is one other method that you
might want to consider that has been suggested in the past by John Jung. He
uses this method and it makes sense to me. I will paste it in below my sign
out.
"do not archive"
Later,
John Cooley
Firestar II
Here is how it works: The front tank has the air vent plugged. It also feeds
the
fuel pump and has a top line connected to the pickup from the rear tank. The
rear
tank is vented normally. What happens is; the rear tank empties first and
then the
front tank. When I fill the tanks, the front is always filled first.
This has two advantages, in my mind.
1) The CG will be farther forward, except when I have both tanks full.
2) I can run both tanks almost dry. With the standard setup, I worry about
the
tanks draining unevenly, and starving for gas before the tanks are really
empty.
If this isn't clear, let me know and I will try again.
John Jung
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
>
> My Mk3/912 has the standard two 5 Gal tank set up. While pondering the
possibilities of fuel starvation with the plumbing now installed it now
looks like a fuel selector valve is mandatory.
> The current system has a suction line from each tank going up to a Tee
located between the tops of the tanks. With this arrangement the first tank
to run out of gas will allow the fuel line to suck air and down we go.
Ideally both tanks would be emptied at the same rate and I would not ever
have one tank empty before the other but this assumption is not positive
enough for a man-rated system in my opinion.
> Location of a RIGHT-LEFT-OFF fuel selector valve will require some
planning to avoid the John Denver (and others I'm sure) hazard. Reaching the
tank area over my shoulder, while strapped in, and switching a valve that I
can't see sounds risky.
> This forces me to find a location where I can see the valve position and
re-route the fuel lines to the new location. The system cost will be in
longer fuel lines and several more potential leak points but the benefit
will be a more reliable fuel system that is easy to operate.
> I am sure I am not the first one to faced this problem and would like to
see what some others have done.
>
> Duane the plane, Tallahassee, FL
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrel@kfalls.net>
I have a firestar with two 5 gal tanks, pickup from the top. The pickup tube
ends about a half inch from the bottom. From the tanks the gas lines go down
behind the seat to a selector valve located in a console that I built into
the side of the cabin in front of my seat. The console also holds, Master
switch, Landing light switch, radio, selector valve, fuel pump switch for a
facet fuel pump as well as a gage for each tank. The line then goes to the
selector valve, then a squeeze bulb, then a pressure regulator (set at 5
pounds)and on to the fuel pump on the engine, then to the carb. I am using
the capacitance fuel gauge that you can cut to whatever length you need.
There is also adjustments on the senders that allows you to set the tank to
register empty at any amount left in the tank. Mine shows empty with 1 gal
still left in the tank. I can only speak for myself, but one of the areas
that I believe are "high risk" is old fuel. It is typical that I will only
fly for about 45 min at a time, unless I am going cross country.So generally
I have about a gal and a half to two gal left in the tank. Whether or not it
is good practice I have gotten away with leaving that two gals in the tank
and the next time I fly Adding three gal of fresh gas to the tank. Having
individual tanks I can fly with a full tank, and I like that. I may want to
use all of it, but my butt generally gets tired somewhere around three
gallons. (I have found that even though I know that there is still a gallon
left in the tank when it shows empty, I cannot continue to fly on a "empty"
tank unless I absolutely have too.) I do not care for the idea of splitting
five gallons of gas between two tanks. While having two tanks connected
would be great on a trip, for the type of flying that I predominately do it
is not practical. The gages cost $34.50 with the sender $96.25, at Air
Spruce. I ran out of gas once, didn't like it at all.( this experience is
what prompted me to go to the gages) With all of us being individuals, I am
sure that my set up will not fit everyone, but you did ask for opinions.
This one has 125 hours trouble free so far.
Larry (the other one)
Message 22
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kevin Jones" <kevin-jones@snet.net>
Len, Let me add encouragement to your writing for the trade magazines. I was
in academia for quite a while and let me comment that you write much too
readably to be acceptable in academic (conference) circles. The magazines
you mention should eat your stuff up.Just keep on thinking you are writing
for us.
kj
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard S.Voelker" <lenvoelker@ccis.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: Flutter
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Leonard S.Voelker" <lenvoelker@ccis.com>
>
> To Steve Randolf and Kolbers,
>
> Thank you very much all of you for your encouraging words about my being a
readable writer. At NASA I didn't have much success writing researchy type
conference papers. Since my retirement last April, I'm 66 years old now,
I've been toying with the idea of trying to write about flutter for
Kitplanes, The Experimenter, or Sport Aviation. I subscribe to all three.
These periodicals, and indeed most aviation magazines, seem to be almost
completely devoid of articles on flutter. This has been of concern to me for
a long time. Perhaps it is really an opportunity in desguise for me to
contribute something meaningful back to aviation, which I love and which has
been so good to me. Posting to this list has been my first attempt at this
kind of writing style but it appears acceptable.
>
> I'm not the brightest crayon in the box by any means but after some 40
years I seem to have aborbed much from many others who are. Perhaps I can
best serve now by being sort of an interpreter of their genius. Besides,
I.ve had a lot of great experiences that need sharing.
>
> I'm also learning so much from you listers in such a short time. Your
multitude of flutter experiences, shared so generously with me, indicate a
genuine, widespread thirst for credible information in this area. Perhaps
we are all on to something here.
>
> Fly safe and flutter free.
>
> Len Voelker
> Kolb Mark III Xtra/?
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s) |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderski" <swiderski@advanced-connect.net>
Duane,
I have 2 five gallon tanks on my SlingShot also. Mine are front & aft.
I wanted to empty my aft tank 1st because of cg issue. I wanted to get
every drop from the 1st tank drained, and I didn't want to top off 2 tanks
if I didn't have to. For these 3 reasons, I went with a different system
than the parallel stock feed. As per my previous post, I didn't want to
have a shut off valve. My method is simple & basically foolproof. I plumb
the 2 tanks in series by controling the venting. The fuel pump sucks from a
pickup tube (accessed thru top of tank via a sealed rubber grommet) located
in the rear of the front tank. This front tank is vented thru another
sealed, top mounted, grommet which in turn is plumbed to the pickup tube in
the rear tank (also using same pickup tube arrangement as in front tank.)
The rear tank is then vented to atmosphere via a top mounted grommert which
is plumbed to outside of plane. As fuel is sucked from the front tank, it
is immediately replaced by fuel from the rear tank (because the front tank's
vent is hooked to the rear tank's pickup.) This process continues untill
every drop of available fuel is sucked out of rear tank. At that point, the
fuel level of the front tank begins to drop. this has the added benifit of
letting you know when exactly half of your fuel is spent. The stock tanks
are rigid enough so they do not collapse when under suction. The worst case
scenario in this setup is that if you get a leak in the vent between the
front tank and the rear tank pickup, you will not draw fuel from the rear
tank. This is not a major issue because you are always watching the
front/primary tank anyway. It has never caused me a problem & I like it so
much that I'd use it even if my tanks were located side by side.
Richard Swiderski
Ocala, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: Mk3 Classic two tank selector valve(s)
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
>
> My Mk3/912 has the standard two 5 Gal tank set up. While pondering the
possibilities of fuel starvation with the plumbing now installed it now
looks like a fuel selector valve is mandatory.
> The current system has a suction line from each tank going up to a Tee
located between the tops of the tanks. With this arrangement the first tank
to run out of gas will allow the fuel line to suck air and down we go.
Ideally both tanks would be emptied at the same rate and I would not ever
have one tank empty before the other but this assumption is not positive
enough for a man-rated system in my opinion.
> Location of a RIGHT-LEFT-OFF fuel selector valve will require some
planning to avoid the John Denver (and others I'm sure) hazard. Reaching the
tank area over my shoulder, while strapped in, and switching a valve that I
can't see sounds risky.
> This forces me to find a location where I can see the valve position and
re-route the fuel lines to the new location. The system cost will be in
longer fuel lines and several more potential leak points but the benefit
will be a more reliable fuel system that is easy to operate.
> I am sure I am not the first one to faced this problem and would like to
see what some others have done.
>
> Duane the plane, Tallahassee, FL
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Gascolators for auto fuel |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@preferred.com>
Being retired and a notable cheapskate & scrounge, I discovered that a
gascolator is very cheap and easy to make. The idea behind a gascolator is
simple: water sinks and gas sits on top of it. So I went down to Autozone
and here was this wall covered with about 50 different kinds of white nylon
automotive fuel filters, right out in the open so you could examine them. I
got one with the inlet and outlet on the same level, and the body or bowl
of the filter about as big as a coffee cup, and below the level of the
inlets and outlets, cost under $3.
Drilled a hole in the bottom of the bowl to fit a rubber fuel tank grommet,
(CPS catalog #7030, $.95) then stuck the barbed end of an elbow tank
fitting (CPS catalog #7032, $2.95) through the grommet. Hooked a drain line
to the fitting and ran it to an external low point on the system and capped
it off with a valve. (Already had that, actually had all the hardware
stuff, so I was primed...)
The fuel (water?) would come in through the inlet and go into the bowl part
first, and then through the filtering matrix and then up and out through
the other port. The water would lay in the bottom, and it would probably
hold nearly a 1/2 pint of water before it would get up to the outlet.
Less than $10 in the whole rig, and it weighed just a few ounces. The guts
inside the one I fooled with were not paper, but if they were, I would
probably have grubbed any paper gasket material out, because I have heard
that wet filter paper does not pass premix, and my old 532 uses premix. But
if you are using oil injection, and straight gasoline is going into the
filter, it would probably work OK. (Test it and make sure!) Once you make
the first one, it becomes very easy, I actually bought two filters, one to
practice on, and the second one to get right.
My present system has a gascolating sump built into the tank, so I am not
using this method, but if I was to do it again, I would buy the filter
first and drill a hole into it and look inside to make sure it was
suitable, they are cheap enough that you can afford to trash a couple to
get just the type you want.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 06:25 PM 12/1/02 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Duncan McBride <duncanmcbride@comcast.net>
>
>What kind of gascolator do you use? Until recently the only relatively
>inexpensive one I could find at Aircraft Spruce wasn't for auto fuel.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Safety Wire fuel line clamps |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@preferred.com>
Added a web page showing how to use safety wire to clamp eurethane fuel line.
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg13.html
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Message 26
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| Subject: | Flutter articles |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Leonard S.Voelker" <lenvoelker@ccis.com>
Dear Ken Fackler,
Thank you very much for the good advice about writing magazine articles. I especially
treasure such advice coming from a real professional writer who "has been
there, done that". So maybe that's why practically nothing has been published
regarding flutter. I never would have guessed. The popular aviation magazines
abound with articles on engines, aircraft design, aerodynamics, fabrication
techniques, avionics, etc. I would have thought that I could have approached
the subject of flutter in much the same way.
Fortunately, I live in an area here in Southern California that abounds in aviation
STORIES. Unfortunately, most of the aircraft involved are not kit aircraft
or ultralights. Even so, many of the same flutter principles still apply.
I certainly don't expect to get rich doing this writing thing and may very well
not make any money at all since I am such a rank amateur. But wouldn't it be
great to eventually earn enough to help buy that engine I'll need for the Mark
III and not have to deplete savings so much.
My main motivation for trying this writing gig, however, is that I'm bothered by
the dearth of credible written information on flutter, especially in the area
of ultra lights and experimental aircraft. And based on the Kolb List responses
and various Letters to the Editor such information is badly needed. I think
that I should browse the other Matronics lists, too. The Archives may just be
full of flutter problems other folks have had.
Some possible topics that I think might be of interest include flutter basics,
control surface flutter, how to flight futter test your aircraft without instrumentation,
propeller whirl flutter, why round lift struts and bracing cables
vibrate, and how to avoid flutter when you modify your aircraft. But you are
right, how to introduce these subjects without it making it seem like a boring
lecture is going to be the challenge. Start with a story, right? A good, dramatic
one that grips the reader's attention. Well, those that have experienced
a flutter incident have certainly vouched for that. I should be in writers' heaven
if I can just figure out how to take advantage of it.
Thanks again for all of your good advice. I couldn't find your E-mail address among
the recent posts. Perhaps you would be so kind as to give it to me directly
so that I can learn more from you off line about this writing thing. I know
that I will need all the help that I can possibly get.
Len Voelker
Mark III Xtra/?
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter articles |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: bob n <ronoy@shentel.net>
For Len V.--I've tried to send you direct, but somehow it keeps being
rejected "...due to content." Geez, now I'm gonna get flamed fer sure!
Pls don't tell the rest of the guys on the list, or they'll want the
same filter.
regards,
Bob N. another writer
Message 28
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| Subject: | New, NEW List Digest Format... |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
Okay, so I woke up this morning to an email box full of hate-mail about the
new List Digest format. I thought it was cool, but I guess not... Still,
it seemed like too much code to just throw out, so I've modified things a
little and I'm hoping everyone will be happy with the new, NEW
arrangement. Here's how it works now:
o The HTML and TXT enclosures aren't sent in the Digest any longer.
o URL Links to the HTML and TEXT versions of the day's Digests
will be found at the top of the digest email.
o The new Digest Index will be found at the top of the digest email
following the URL Links.
o The full digest text will then be found in the email as before.
o All of the previous Digests will now be available on line. The
URL for the main digest page is:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
From here, you can drill into the specific List Digest of interest.
o Both the HTML and TXT versions of the Digests can be found here.
o The List Message Trailer will contain a Link directly to the given
o Right now there's only one Digest shown, but each day there will
be another. They will be sorted with the newest at the top.
Left-hand column is the HTML version, right-hand column the TXT
version.
A couple people also complained that some messages in the HTML version were
just one long line that went off to the right forever and they hated
that. Come to think of it, this is also an issue in the Search Engine,
List Browser, and Archive Browser. Some email programs don't included hard
Returns at regular intervals and that's what causes this. I wrote a
program tonight that will automatically chop these long lines into 78
characters or less and wrap the rest of the line. After tonight's Archive
transfer, all of the Searching and Browsing tools shouldn't have the
problem any longer either. Woo hoo!
So, back to the new Digest format. What people are going to see in the
new, NEW Digest is a bit of verbiage at the top of the email describing the
URL links to the HTML and TXT on-line versions, followed by the Links,
followed by the day's Index, followed by the day's messages just as
before. Lines longer than 78 characters will also be automatically wrapped
onto the next line.
Hopefully this will be a more pleasing arrangement for everyone. Sorry to
get everybody so stirred up over the format change!
The List of Contributors is coming out tomorrow night... Still time to
make that Contribution! http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
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