Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:37 AM - Accident (Wood, John T.)
2. 06:04 AM - Re: Accident (dama@mindspring.com)
3. 06:19 AM - Re: Junkyard wars motor (William George)
4. 06:46 AM - Re: (Jack & Louise Hart)
5. 06:57 AM - Re: Accident (Kirk Smith)
6. 06:58 AM - accident (Joe Allman)
7. 07:33 AM - Re: Accident (John Hauck)
8. 07:54 AM - Re: (John Hauck)
9. 08:11 AM - Paint Question? (Don Gherardini)
10. 08:17 AM - Re: (Don Gherardini)
11. 08:32 AM - Re: Accident (Peter Volum)
12. 08:38 AM - Re: Paint Question? (John Hauck)
13. 08:58 AM - Re: (Jeremy Casey)
14. 09:04 AM - Re: (Jack & Louise Hart)
15. 09:19 AM - Re: (Jack & Louise Hart)
16. 09:31 AM - Firefly Flight Characteristics After Owner Modifications (John Hauck)
17. 09:40 AM - Junkyard wars motors (Timandjan@aol.com)
18. 09:40 AM - Mud flight (Timandjan@aol.com)
19. 09:41 AM - Re: Paint Question? (Ian Heritch)
20. 10:03 AM - Re: (Jack & Louise Hart)
21. 10:57 AM - EVO/AIR (Paul Petty)
22. 11:05 AM - Re: Firefly Flight Characteristics After Owner (Jack & Louise Hart)
23. 11:50 AM - Re: (Jeremy Casey)
24. 12:52 PM - Color match? (RWilliJill@aol.com)
25. 12:59 PM - Re: Color match? (RWilliJill@aol.com)
26. 01:44 PM - Re: (Jack & Louise Hart)
27. 02:09 PM - Re: john hauk on mush stall (Vincehallam@aol.com)
28. 02:17 PM - Re: (Richard Swiderski)
29. 02:44 PM - Re: john hauk on mush stall (John Hauck)
30. 02:54 PM - Jacks mods (Christopher Armstrong)
31. 03:58 PM - Windshield (Richard Neitzel)
32. 04:59 PM - Kolb Firestar II for Sale (Alderson, James)
33. 05:31 PM - website (Paul Petty)
34. 05:46 PM - Re: Color match? (John Cooley)
35. 06:16 PM - Re: Color match? (RWilliJill@aol.com)
36. 06:38 PM - Re: Paint Question? (John Cooley)
37. 07:02 PM - Re: Windshield (Larry Bourne)
38. 07:21 PM - Re: Accident (Larry Bourne)
39. 08:16 PM - Re: Kolb Firestar II for Sale (Richard Pike)
40. 09:51 PM - Re: Color match? ()
41. 09:57 PM - Re: Windshield ()
42. 11:02 PM - Re: Windshield (Larry Bourne)
Message 1
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Wood, John T." <woodjt@spawar.navy.mil>
Hi Everyone,
As a few of you have noticed, from the accident reports, my Firestar was
involved in an accident this past Saturday. I was reluctant to discuss it
until the FAA and a chance to look at it. What they had determined is that
my "new" Powerfin prop delaminated and consequently struck the aileron tube.
The new prop had only about 12 hrs on it. I was about 1500 agl when this
occurred. It made a very loud noise and got the attention a several folks on
the ground. I immediately pulled the power back and began setting up for
landing the plane. Below me was a grass field. I positioned the plane to
take advantage on the long direction of the field. As I got closer to the
ground it became apparent that is was not grass but 18" new growth from the
recent rains. The ground was soft and wet. As the rollout continued, I could
see the tires were starting to settle into the soft ground. A combination of
the soft ground the tall grass a plowed field and the recent rains, the
plane came to an abrupt stop at about 25 mph and as in slow motion the nose
dipped forward and the rest of the plane followed coming to rest upside
down. My passenger and I were left hanging upside down. I undid my seat belt
and the then undid hers. I was conducting young eagle flights which I have
done ever since I have started flying my Firestar. We were both not injured.
With all the forces in play, had the cage not been made of chromally, I am
sure the outcome would have been different.
The insurance representative, I could tell, was having a hard time trying to
figure out how he was going to evaluate the damage. He was new at this and
had not probably reviewed too many experimental homebuilt airplanes. How do
you value a homebuilders time or apply a standard when there are no shops
that would even work on one of our planes. I do have hull coverage, so I
will be compensated in some way. The actual damage includes bent cage front
and top, both wings bent, wing struts bent, prop broken and rudder bent. As
the engine was still operating at idle at the time of the flip, the engine
would have to be at least completely gone through.
I was so looking forward to Monument Valley. I am not sure now what my plans
will be. I love flying my plane and I usually get out at least once a week
and take a little jaunt around the countryside. I am going to miss this
while I work on getting a flying solution in place.
Take care,
John
Message 2
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: dama@mindspring.com
Sounds like you did all you could. Great job, John.
Kip
-------Original Message-------
From: "Wood, John T." <woodjt@spawar.navy.mil>
Subject: Kolb-List: Accident
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Wood, John T." <woodjt@spawar.navy.mil>
Hi Everyone,
As a few of you have noticed, from the accident reports, my Firestar was
involved in an accident this past Saturday. I was reluctant to discuss it
until the FAA and a chance to look at it. What they had determined is that
my "new" Powerfin prop delaminated and consequently struck the aileron
tube.
The new prop had only about 12 hrs on it. I was about 1500 agl when this
occurred. It made a very loud noise and got the attention a several folks
on
the ground. I immediately pulled the power back and began setting up for
landing the plane. Below me was a grass field. I positioned the plane to
take advantage on the long direction of the field. As I got closer to the
ground it became apparent that is was not grass but 18" new growth from
the
recent rains. The ground was soft and wet. As the rollout continued, I
could
see the tires were starting to settle into the soft ground. A combination
of
the soft ground the tall grass a plowed field and the recent rains, the
plane came to an abrupt stop at about 25 mph and as in slow motion the
nose
dipped forward and the rest of the plane followed coming to rest upside
down. My passenger and I were left hanging upside down. I undid my seat
belt
and the then undid hers. I was conducting young eagle flights which I have
done ever since I have started flying my Firestar. We were both not
injured.
With all the forces in play, had the cage not been made of chromally, I am
sure the outcome would have been different.
The insurance representative, I could tell, was having a hard time trying
to
figure out how he was going to evaluate the damage. He was new at this and
had not probably reviewed too many experimental homebuilt airplanes. How
do
you value a homebuilders time or apply a standard when there are no shops
that would even work on one of our planes. I do have hull coverage, so I
will be compensated in some way. The actual damage includes bent cage
front
and top, both wings bent, wing struts bent, prop broken and rudder bent.
As
the engine was still operating at idle at the time of the flip, the engine
would have to be at least completely gone through.
I was so looking forward to Monument Valley. I am not sure now what my
plans
will be. I love flying my plane and I usually get out at least once a week
and take a little jaunt around the countryside. I am going to miss this
while I work on getting a flying solution in place.
Take care,
John
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Junkyard wars motor |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: William George <wgeorge@mountainmeadowranch.com>
Aloha John and fellow Kolbers,
Thanks for the info. The index page worked fine. Great pix.
Unusual weather around here with the very light winds. That's when I have no
thoughts of selling the flying machine. I tend to forget the 25-30 knots
that is normally prevalent at my field.
Airline captains have too many toys and must spread out the $$$ among them
;-)
do not archive
Bill George
Kolb Mk-3/Verner1400SVS/Powerfin 68" "F"
> From: Kolb-List Digest Server <kolb-list-digest@matronics.com>
> Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:56:15 -0800
> To: Kolb-List Digest List <kolb-list-digest@matronics.com>
> Subject: Kolb-List Digest: 47 Msgs - 03/13/03
>
> Hi Bill/Gang:
>
> I did some shuffling around on the index page. Go
> to the main directory and click on Miss P'fer
> file. You'll get all the pics that Paul Petty and
> John Cooley donated recently.
>
> http://home.sw.rr.com/jhauck/
>
> The Ron File is the pics of the Desert Rat from
> Sierra Vista with the baby blue fuselage. hehehe
> Where did you get that color from Ron? That
> should go on a baby bed!
>
>> Flew 1.2 today in glass smooth air. The Verner is running splendidly and gas
>> consumption looks to be about 2.75 gph. Cruise rpm of 3800 give a TAS of 64
>> mph. We ain't burning a hole in the sky but we're havin' fun.
>
> Looks like you are having fun. Glad you have not
> sold your Kolb. When you wear out the Verner,
> spring for a 912S and really have some fun. Burns
> twice as much fuel, but kicks you in the butt
> twice as hard! Don't tell me you can not afford
> it. Airline Captains (real ones) have lots of
> money. hehehe
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List: |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
John,
At 07:51 PM 3/13/03 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>Boy! It would be nice to sit down and talk face
>to face about some of these problems we encounter
>with our little airplanes. Would be much easier
>and more beneficial doing it in person.
Since it is not possible, and that is why we have this list.
>
>> My FireFly with full flaperons (about 20 degrees), at 50 mphi and with the engine
at an idle, the stick will be back against the stop, and it is dropping
like a rock.
>
>The above statement tells me you are in a
>mush/stall.
You have got to be kidding. This FireFly will maintain altitude with no flaperons
at about 35 mph true or 18 mphi. This is no mush/stall. Adding flaperon
increases wing chamber and in doing so increases the nose down moment on the wing.
At full flaperon, there was/is not enough horizontal tail surface authority
to counteract this nose down moment. I could hold it in a flying decent at
50 mphi, but I could not lessen the rate of decent. I was not about to let the
stick go forward to pick up more speed and steepen the decent. To add power
would steepen the decent. The only solution is to remove flaperon and then
add power.
This is why you go to altitude to check these things out. The trick is to idle
back, drop the nose until one hits the desired mphi of decent. Then slowly start
adding flaperon and use the stick to maintain the same mphi of decent. If
and when you reach the point where the stick is full back, there is no way to
flair. If you are well over your stall speed mphi, this indicates insufficient
elevator authority.
>
>Have you experimented with 60 MPH, without the
>stick aft to the stop?
My normal (no flaperons) final approach is at 55 to 60 mphi. After the flaperon
experience, I temporarily installed VG's on the bottom leading edge of the horizontal
stabilizer to increase available tail down force so that the FireFly
would stall clean rather than stall/mush and to see if it would help with the
above condition. But I thought the Victor 1 was ready and I removed the Rotax
447. With warm weather coming and the Victor 1 installation problems mostly
solved, I will be getting back to checking out the flaperons again but only at
altitude. I really don't see much need for them.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 5
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
> done ever since I have started flying my Firestar. We were both not
injured.
So glad neither of you were injured.........Kirk
Message 6
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Joe Allman" <fisherallman@earthlink.net>
John,
Sorry to hear about your recent accident. So glad everyone's alright!
Joe
Message 7
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> What they had determined is that
> my "new" Powerfin prop delaminated and consequently struck the aileron tube.
> John
John/Gang:
Check and see if something came off the engine to
initiate your prop failure. Usuallly that is what
happens. Exhaust system nuts, washers, bolts,
etc., is usually all it takes.
On the other hand, it may have been a poorly
constructed prop, and 12 hours is how long it took
to reach failure.
I have used wooden and carbon fiber props. Would
not swap the Warp Drive for wooden, and definitely
would not go to an IVO or Powerfin. Both use
similar construction. Both fly well as long as
they stay together. Both seem to lack a lot in
the area of durability.
That is my own personal opinion................
Warp Drive has sponsored me with props since a GSC
three blade wooden prop came apart on my 582
powered MK III. Cost me a new tail boom, and some
fabric repair. Shook the starter off the mag end
of the engine and both carbs. Bent the tail boom
out of column aprx'ly 5 deg. Because of 40 deg of
flaps was able to stick the MK III in a shoe box
sized LZ completely surrounded by high power
lines, trees, and a large bamboo thicket. Landed
with no further damage in chest high Johnson
grass. Hauck landing gear kept her on her gear.
An intentional ground loop kept her out of the
bamboo. Losing the carbs probably kept the engine
on the mounts. Went to a solid carbon fiber prop
and have never looked back.
For insurance purposes I would claim an engine
teardown and inspection as a minimum based on the
prop strike. In reality, I personally, would not
hesitate to fly the same engine without a tear
down, not with a wooden blade strike or a
Powerfin/IVO strike at idle.
Avemco pays $15.00 an hour for repair work by the
owner/builder. That is nothing compared to shop
charges for an A&P. Make sure you estimate plenty
hours for repair, if you should decide to repair.
Also leave the estimate open to add more hours, as
required, as you get into the repair job.
If you have serious damage to fuselage, both
wings, engine, rudder, and probably other areas,
sounds to me like a total. Then buy the salvage
and repair. Some companies will go that route.
Glad you and your Young Eagle are ok. That is the
most important part.
Take care,
john h
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List: |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> >The above statement tells me you are in a
> >mush/stall. john h
>
> You have got to be kidding. This FireFly will maintain altitude with no flaperons
at about 35 mph true or 18 mphi. This is no mush/stall.
Jack/Gang:
Nope! I am definitely not kidding. And yes, from
your description you are stalling. You might be
level, loosing a lot of altitude quickly, with the
stick full back, and idle power, but you ain't
flying. Adding power will only add to your
problems. The only way to get out of a stall is
to put the nose down to reduce the angle of attack
of the wings to the relative wind. Whether you
believe me or not is your business.
> Adding flaperon increases wing chamber and in doing so increases the nose down
moment on the wing. At full flaperon, there was/is not enough horizontal tail
surface authority to counteract this nose down moment.
Jack, if the horizontal stab was stalled or did
not have enough authority to keep the airplane
level, the nose would drop.
> I could hold it in a flying decent at 50 mphi, but I could not lessen the rate
of decent. I was not about to let the stick go forward to pick up more speed
and steepen the decent. To add power would steepen the decent. The only solution
is to remove flaperon and then add power.
Wrong! You were stalling at 50 mph IAS in a level
attitude, something that Kolbs do really well. To
get out of a stall you got to push the nose down
and leave the power at idle unless you want to
risk a possible overspeed. By raising the
flaperons and adding power, you simply powered
your way out of a level stall. You flew it out of
a level stall with power. What would you do if
you got into that situation and lost the engine?
I know what I would do. Push that damn stick
forward, raise the flaperons, and fly.
>
> This is why you go to altitude to check these things out. The trick is to idle
back, drop the nose until one hits the desired mphi of decent. Then slowly
start adding flaperon and use the stick to maintain the same mphi of decent.
If and when you reach the point where the stick is full back, there is no way
to flair. If you are well over your stall speed mphi, this indicates insufficient
elevator authority.
You are not over your stall speed when you are
stalling at 50 mph IAS.
Again, if you lose elevator authority, the nose is
going down, unless you have a severe aft CG
problem. I don't think you do.
> My normal (no flaperons) final approach is at 55 to 60 mphi. After the flaperon
experience, I temporarily installed VG's on the bottom leading edge of the
horizontal stabilizer to increase available tail down force so that the FireFly
would stall clean rather than stall/mush and to see if it would help with the
above condition.
Jack, didn't you also raise the leading edge of
the horizontal stabilizers on your Fire Fly, well
above called for rigging?
I'll have a chance to play with the Fire Fly again
at Lakeland. I'll try to remember to put it
through some of the maneuvers that you describe
and see what happens. I may have a poor memory,
but not bad enough to remember how the Fire Fly
flew a couple years ago.
I can duplicate the same maneuver with the MK
III. Full flaps, get it into a mush, maintain
level pitch and roll attitude with elevator and
aileron. It'll mush at aprx'ly 2,000 feet minute
rate of descent, right into the ground if I don't
put the nose down and get it flying again.
john h
Message 9
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Gentlemen, I have seen advice hear to spray a coat of white over the poly-spray
alum UV-coat. This makes sense and I have some white 2 part epoxy-primer left...enough
to cover i believe. Can this be used instead of ordering another can
of poly or aerothane white?
I should mention...my final colors are gonna be Cub yellow with Pontiac red trim...Ever
see a bird like that???(LOL)
Not goint to be exactly like yours John, but definately inspired by Miss P'fer
, for I just think shes a beauty!
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Don Gherardini-
FireFly 098
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List: |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
I dont know for sure Jack, but it makes me wonder ....this surely sounds
like some sort of stalling condition...maybe by an aft CG ..or possibly a
wing/horizontal stab incedence being mis matched....or something really
funny....Im worried about you now my virtual friend, and looking really hard
at my firefly in the shed trying to see what is going on here! Trouble is..I
have never flown it..or any Firefly yet for that matter...so I'm really at a
loss.
Don G
Message 11
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Peter Volum" <peterv@etsmiami.com>
Glad you and your Young Eagle are around to tell the tale John. I hope
the experience hasn't "cured" her enthusiasm for flying.
If the fault proves to be delamination of the prop without outside
assistance (such as something going through it), shouldn't Powerfin be
assuming at least some of the responsibility and/or cost? It would be
interesting to hear how they respond.
Peter
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Wood, John T."
<woodjt@spawar.navy.mil>
Hi Everyone,
As a few of you have noticed, from the accident reports, my Firestar was
involved in an accident this past Saturday.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Paint Question? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> Gentlemen, I have seen advice hear to spray a coat of white over the poly-spray
alum UV-coat. This makes sense and I have some white 2 part epoxy-primer left...enough
to cover i believe. Can this be used instead of ordering another can
of poly or aerothane white?
> Don Gherardini-
Jim and Dondi told me to use some white epoxy
primer over "feather coat" on my nose cone to seal
it, but I don't think it will be flexible enough
for fabric.
Best check with the experts on that one.
I always us Insignia White for an undercoat to
colors.
john h
Message 13
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" <jrcasey@ldl.net>
Jack,
I know you know more than the designer of the plane your
flying(working on... tongue in cheek as I say that) but DON'T use your
plane as a baseline for how a Firefly flies. Just a quick look through
your website shows that you raised (significantly) the leading edge of
your horizontal stabilizer. (Reread the name of that part you didn't
mount per plans...h-o-r-i-z-o-n-t-a-l s-t-a-b-i-l-i-z-e-r...since you
significantly changed the angle that it's mounted...then don't say that
"KOLB FIREFLIES" are elevator limited...say YOUR Kolb Firefly is
elevator limited.
Jeremy Casey
P.S. Flaperons down not only increases wing camber, it increases the
chord line, which is in effect increasing the angle of attack
P.P.S. Delta shaped wings (Which the horizontal stabilizers are) require
large angle of attack to generate lift (even negative lift) Why do you
suppose the Concorde, Mirage, Delta Dart, Griffon, etc. fighters land
with their noses stuck up in the air. The elevator is dealing with all
the down force on your plane, because the horizontal is at such a small
angle of attack it is not helping handle the job.
P.P.P.S. One question Jack. On your website, you mentioned that you
had to adjust the horz. Stab. To cruise with the horizontal, elevator,
and STICK centered. Did you adjust out some of your control throw by
adjusting the push-pull tube to make it "centered"?
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List: |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
John,
At 09:53 AM 3/14/03 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
>
>> >The above statement tells me you are in a
>> >mush/stall. john h
>>
>> You have got to be kidding. This FireFly will maintain altitude with no flaperons
at about 35 mph true or 18 mphi. This is no mush/stall.
>
>Jack/Gang:
>
>Nope! I am definitely not kidding. And yes, from
>your description you are stalling. ..... Whether you
>believe me or not is your business.
>
I disagree. If this was a tractor configuration, one would just power out and
not think much about it.
>> Adding flaperon increases wing chamber and in doing so increases the nose down
moment on the wing. At full flaperon, there was/is not enough horizontal tail
surface authority to counteract this nose down moment.
>
>Jack, if the horizontal stab was stalled or did
>not have enough authority to keep the airplane
>level, the nose would drop.
>
Ah, since the nose did not drop, you agree that the horizontal stab was not stalled,
therefore it there must not be enough elevator authority.
>> I could hold it in a flying decent at 50 mphi, but I could not lessen the rate
of decent. I was not about to let the stick go forward to pick up more speed
and steepen the decent. To add power would steepen the decent. The only solution
is to remove flaperon and then add power.
>
>Wrong! You were stalling at 50 mph IAS in a level
>attitude, something that Kolbs do really well.
If it had stalled the nose would have dropped.
>>
>> This is why you go to altitude to check these things out. The trick is to idle
back, drop the nose until one hits the desired mphi of decent. Then slowly
start adding flaperon and use the stick to maintain the same mphi of decent.
If and when you reach the point where the stick is full back, there is no way
to flair. If you are well over your stall speed mphi, this indicates insufficient
elevator authority.
>
>You are not over your stall speed when you are
>stalling at 50 mph IAS.
Again, the nose did not drop.
>
>Again, if you lose elevator authority, the nose is
>going down, unless you have a severe aft CG
>problem. I don't think you do.
There was no loss of elevator authority, there just was not enough of it.
>
>Jack, didn't you also raise the leading edge of
>the horizontal stabilizers on your Fire Fly, well
>above called for rigging?
When building the FireFly, I recognized that with the original design that in the
three point stance the wing airfoil was much too flat. This would lead to
much higher take off speeds and much banging of the tail wheel in trying to make
three point landings. To counteract this I shortened the tail wheel spring,
and I drilled the main spar attachment holes so give a higher incidence angle
(I believe this is the correct term). To compensate for this, I had to raise
the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. The incidence angle difference
between the wing (11 deg) and the horizontal stabilizer (9 deg) is 2 degrees.
I would venture to guess this is not much different than other FireFlys.
With the VG's it lets me get off and land at about 25 mphi in and out of ground
effect.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List: |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
At 10:21 AM 3/14/03 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
>
>I dont know for sure Jack, but it makes me wonder ....this surely sounds
>like some sort of stalling condition...maybe by an aft CG ..or possibly a
>wing/horizontal stab incedence being mis matched....or something really
>funny....Im worried about you now my virtual friend, and looking really hard
>at my firefly in the shed trying to see what is going on here! Trouble is..I
>have never flown it..or any Firefly yet for that matter...so I'm really at a
>loss.
>
>Don G
>
Don,
The only time I have had a control problem with the FireFly has been with full
flaperons which I don't see any need for except to make it meet AC 103-7.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 16
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| Subject: | Firefly Flight Characteristics After Owner Modifications |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Jack/Kolbers:
It is quite obvious that you are not going to hear
a word I say, and if by chance you do, you will
misinterprete it. I will not argue with you. I
have stated previously all I have to say on the
matter.
I only hope you wake up soon before you hurt
yourself or others. I am dead serious about that.
I firmly believe you have the wrong impression on
how your airplane flies and what it is doing when
you are flying it.
I also believe that you have changed the rigging
of your airplane with the intention to improve it,
but have only agrevated your perceived problem.
Lengthening the main gear legs would have been the
way to go to put your Fire Fly in a better three
point stance for for take offs and landings. Take
a look at my MK III. That is one of the primary
reasons my MK III sits a couple feet higher in the
three point stance than the standard MK III. My
Firestar had the same three point stance.
Again, good luck with your project and fly safely,
john h
PS: I'm looking forward to getting back into a
Firefly at Lakeland. Hopefully, I can fly enough
to check out what Jack is trying to tell us.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Junkyard wars motors |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Timandjan@aol.com
I work with a gal who is the girlfriend of one of the Americans that
participiated in the Junkyard show. I have not met him yet, but we will now
that we have a connection. He sounds very interesting. She said he had a
great time. Said they all talked about the designs, everone tried to make a
vintage design, at least somewhat, except the british who basically made a
ultralight "type" design. Anyways, she was great to chat with. I still ike
the "Monster Garage" show beter.
Tim
DO NOT ARCHVE
Message 18
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Timandjan@aol.com
What a flight, just had to fly because the weather has been so crapy. Taxied
up to the high end of the field and sloshed through the mud on takeoff.
Decided to also land downwind on the high side of the field, came in slow,
touched down short, all great and then I rolled about 20 feet and hit the
mother of all slosh and mud. My wife happened to be out and videotaped it.
The mud splash totally engulfed the plane, the nose came up and I think I had
just enough speed left and authority to dig the stick into my gut and keep
the tail down. That's the closest I have ever come to going up on the nose
(except the time I went into a hole as I was turning and gently went up on
the nose) but that's another story. So I flew for 20 minutes and then
cleaned the mudd for 2 hours. Great video. I am sure glad I had just build
the encosure, what a mess that would have been if I had been flying with my
summer windshield. I call this winter hell, just had to fly.
Thought you would enjoy.
Tim
Do NOT ARCHIVE
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Paint Question? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ian Heritch" <iheritch@satx.rr.com>
Don, call Jim & Dondi, I think they will reccomend you use white Poly Tone.
Please, give them a try before you paint.
Ian Heritch
Slingshot 912
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: Paint Question?
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
>
> Gentlemen, I have seen advice hear to spray a coat of white over the
poly-spray alum UV-coat. This makes sense and I have some white 2 part
epoxy-primer left...enough to cover i believe. Can this be used instead of
ordering another can of poly or aerothane white?
>
> I should mention...my final colors are gonna be Cub yellow with Pontiac
red trim...Ever see a bird like that???(LOL)
>
> Not goint to be exactly like yours John, but definately inspired by Miss
P'fer , for I just think shes a beauty!
> http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
> Don Gherardini-
> FireFly 098
>
>
Message 20
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
Jeremy,
Someone asked a question about flaperons. Another person on the list responded
with:
"If you keep a good cross check of your airspeed
indicator, keep 10 mph over the stall with full
flaperons, you will not run out of elevator and
you will not stall."
If I had followed this advice, I may not be writing this today, and so I recommended:
"Before landing with flaperons, be sure to practice landing approach decents at
altitude to be sure that you have enough stick left to pull up the nose and to
flair."
This brought a response that all Kolb designs had no problems with flaperons.
I have only cited what has happened to me in my FireFly. But if it can happen
to me why not someone else? My purpose was not to be an expert on all Kolb designs
or all FireFlys, but it was to try and prevent someone from bending a landing
gear or may be worse.
At 11:54 AM 3/14/03 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" <jrcasey@ldl.net>
> ..............
>P.P.P.S. One question Jack. On your website, you mentioned that you
>had to adjust the horz. Stab. To cruise with the horizontal, elevator,
>and STICK centered. Did you adjust out some of your control throw by
>adjusting the push-pull tube to make it "centered"?
>
The horizontal stabilizer was raised, and then the cable turn buckles were adjusted
so that the stick was centered with the elevator in plane with the horizontal
stabilizer. This gives equal up and down displacement of the elevator.
Enough! This has been fun, but it is warm enough to go fly.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 21
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SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT_OE, USER_IN_WHITELIST)
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
Hey Folks,
Finally got around to building a website for the Harley project. Not much to look
at just yet but I will add more and more each day. If anyone wants to advertise
on it let me know. It's free! www.evoair.0catch.com
Later
pp....
N4958P
Do not archive
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Firefly Flight Characteristics After Owner |
Modifications
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
At 11:30 AM 3/14/03 -0600, you wrote:
>
>I also believe that you have changed the rigging
>of your airplane with the intention to improve it,
>but have only agrevated your perceived problem.
>Lengthening the main gear legs would have been the
>way to go to put your Fire Fly in a better three
>point stance for for take offs and landings. Take
>a look at my MK III. That is one of the primary
>reasons my MK III sits a couple feet higher in the
>three point stance than the standard MK III. My
>Firestar had the same three point stance.
>
John,
If I do not use the flaperons, there is no problem with my FireFly. I only checked
them out because they were there.
As for lengthening the main gear legs, it is not a viable option due the added
weight.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 23
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" <jrcasey@ldl.net>
<SNIP>
When building the FireFly, I recognized that with the original design
that in the three point stance the wing airfoil was much too flat. This
would lead to much higher take off speeds and much banging of the tail
wheel in trying to make three point landings. To counteract this I
shortened the tail wheel spring, and I drilled the main spar attachment
holes so give a higher incidence angle (I believe this is the correct
term). To compensate for this, I had to raise the leading edge of the
horizontal stabilizer. The incidence angle difference between the
wing (11 deg) and the horizontal stabilizer (9 deg) is 2 degrees. I
would venture to guess this is not much different than other FireFlys.
With the VG's it lets me get off and land at about 25 mphi in and out of
ground effect.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
<SNIP>
So let me get this straight..."When building the Firefly..." in other
words boys and girls, before you ever flew a Firefly you changed the
angle of attack in relation to the fuselage/landing gear and then had a
problem with the horizontal stabilizer needing to be adjusted. I didn't
get that from your web page that made me believe there was something
inherently wrong with the Firefly. This goes back to what Possum said
about at least building one by the plans first time around...you might
find out the designer knew a thing or 2...
I'm done on this topic as well...I figured the truth would come out
sooner or later...
Jeremy Casey
Message 24
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: RWilliJill@aol.com
Can anyone tell me what color of white best matches the white powder coating
on my cage and tail boom?
Ron Williams
Firestar II
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Color match? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: RWilliJill@aol.com
I meant to say what color Poly Tone matches the powder coating.
Ron W
Message 26
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
At 02:44 PM 3/14/03 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" <jrcasey@ldl.net>
>
>
>So let me get this straight..."When building the Firefly..." in other
>words boys and girls, before you ever flew a Firefly you changed the
>angle of attack in relation to the fuselage/landing gear and then had a
>problem with the horizontal stabilizer needing to be adjusted. I didn't
>get that from your web page that made me believe there was something
>inherently wrong with the Firefly. This goes back to what Possum said
>about at least building one by the plans first time around...you might
>find out the designer knew a thing or 2...
>
>I'm done on this topic as well...I figured the truth would come out
>sooner or later...
>
>Jeremy Casey
>
Jeremy,
So what is the truth?
The shortening of the tail wheel spring has nothing to do with the relationship
between the inclination of the wing relative to the horizontal stabilizer. But
by shortening the spring, one reduces weight, and it lets the FireFly get off
and on the ground at slower speeds which reduces the chance of bending a gear
leg.
The raising of the main spar attachment points by may be 1/2 inch was another attempt
to improve take off and landings. This change is equivalent to a one degree
inclination increase. Raising the front of the horizontal stabilizer 1.5
inches is about a three degree increase. So if I had left the main wing attachment
centered as called for in the plans, I would have had to raise the horizontal
stabilizer one inch.
There are all kinds of reasons for my FireFly being different. I believe the most
probable is that my rib profile may be different. When I was trying to assemble
ribs as to the plans, I had trouble trying to fit the preformed ribs.
I requested copy of the airfoil shape. Dennis faxed me a full size drawing.
From this I laid out a full sized pattern. As I recall, I had to reshape the
upper ribs to fit the pattern. But for whatever reason, most of these changes
are insignificant.
There is nothing inherently wrong with the FireFly. If you got that impression
from my web site, I apologize and that was not my intent. Once the FireFly flew
the first time, the important thing is to trim it out so that it is a good
handling plane. My flaperon problem can be cured by placing a stop on the activation
lever so that it cannot be moved past 15 degrees. But since I am the
only person to fly it and I never use them for landing, why bother.
Homer Kolb did us a tremendous favor by designing these planes. But there is no
way he could envision what builders/owners want to do with his planes. Also,
there are probably few on this list who have built their own Kolb who have kept
their plane "stock". To expect all Kolb designs to be kept pure is nonsense
although some of the most staunch defenders of the designs appear to be the
most guilty of modification. Everyone has their personal need to make his plane
into what he wants it to be. The trick is to be safe while doing it.
Earlier, I said I was going to fly, but a cold front has come through and visibility
is poor. So this will have to do for today.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List:john hauk on mush stall |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Vincehallam@aol.com
John
Thatr last one of yours ,mushing at 2000 ft / min with good roll
authority,,,,what was your indicated airspeed?
Vnz
Message 28
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderski" <swiderski@advanced-connect.net>
Joe,
I used the flaperons on my SlingShot from the get go. No problems or
any unusual tendencies to report.
...Richard Swiderski
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Allman" <fisherallman@earthlink.net>
Subject: Kolb-List:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Joe Allman" <fisherallman@earthlink.net>
>
>
> As a long time lurker on the list I'd like to say thanks for all the great
> info.
>
> I was wondering if anyone could share their thoughts regarding flaps and
> usefulness. I've
> got 25 or 30 hours in a slingshot. Learned to fly it without flaps (on
the
> advice of a friend) but I've been experimenting a little lately.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joe
> SS-582
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List:john hauk on mush stall |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> Thatr last one of yours ,mushing at 2000 ft / min with good roll
> authority,,,,what was your indicated airspeed?
> Vnz
Hi Vince/Kolbers:
Not IAS but reading from VSI (vertical speed
indicator). It pegs at 2,000 feet per min up or
down. IAS is aprx 65 to 70 to get that rate of
descent. A real plus when the engine stops and
the LZ is shoe box size.
Are you going to make it over to our side of the
pond this year?
john h
Message 30
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" <cen33475@CenturyTel.net>
I think Jack is learning alot about aircraft rigging with his plane.
incidence angle of the wing is all about optimising fuselage drag at a given
aoa, which sets which speed the plane flies best at. ground angle, aoa with
the wheels on the ground, sets your minimum (tail wheel or max nose gear)
lift off speed. Jack wanted to be able to land and fly real slow, so he
increased both his ground angle and incicence angles by rigging the wing
higher, and raised the ground angle a bit more with a shorter tail wheel
spring. then to minimise trim drag in cruise he lifted the tail to be at
the same angle with the wing, like it would have been on the regular plane.
Or maybe even higher??? This is also fairly logical, but the resulting
flight characteristics flapperons down dont sound great. But he doesnt use
them so not real importent. I would be curious to see if lowering the
stabiliser back down a bit improved the situation. Since the origonal goal
was to land slow, which is what the flapperons are good for in theory, it
would be nice to get them usable and see if the landing slow speed
characteristics are worth using them.
Both partial stalling the wing and running out of tail power result in no
more nose up. stalling the tail would result in a nose bob. full stall of
the wing would result in a nose drop. but if you are descending fast,
without the nose pointed down then your wing is partially stalled. Stall
with flaperons down is going to come at a very shallow angle on your plane,
since your wing has a few extra degrees in it to start with, and flapperon
defflection increases aoa alot. I wont claim to know whats happening from
here, but it is interesting, and I am glad your being real carefully with
the plane in this flight configuration. You should be able to fly slower
flaps down then flaps up, but at less incidence angle. you gotta let the
nose go down when the flaps come down.
Topher
Message 31
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Neitzel" <neitzel@newnorth.net>
Greetings
I trial fit the windshield on my Mark III today by pulling it into place with some
nylon straps. With the lexan on the outside of the top lip of the nose cone
there is a considerable gap between the windshield posts and the lexan near
the instrument panel. Is this appropriate? Looks to me that air flow would
be better and that the lexan would fit better if it were tucked underneath the
top lip of the nose cone.
Also I attended a ultra light safety seminar a few days ago and the last speaker
was from Rotax. I learned a couple of things that I will pass along. When
I mounted the exhaust manifold to my 582, Kolb instructs to use three Allen head
bolts per port. Rotax says that either use two bolts per port (opposite corners)
or four bolts to avoid warping of the manifold. I didn't like the idea
of only two bolts so I went to the local hardware store and purchase two of the
longest all thread metric bolts that I could find. I cut the heads off and
spun the studs in and carefully put nuts on the studs. Takes about three hands
to hold the manifold back till both nuts are started and hold the gaskets in
place, but it can be done. I then drilled small holes in the remaining Allen
head bolts and after applying the correct torque I secured them with safety
wire. If the nuts come loose they can not come off because of studs close proximity
to the manifold.
The other thing that the Rotax guy said was after shutting down it is a good idea
to spray fogging oil in the intakes and plug holes. Then put a plug in the
exhaust pipe and bag the carburetors. He said to do this after every flight.
Still have not run my 582 but have been fogging and turning engine over regularly.
I was wondering if you guys fog and how often?
Thank you all ahead of time
Dick Neitzel Mark III 582 Sayner WI neitzel@newnorth.net
Message 32
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| Subject: | Kolb Firestar II for Sale |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Alderson, James" <James_Alderson@jdedwards.com>
Hate to do it, but I think I am going to feel a little more comfortable
learning and getting a couple hours on a tricycle gear two place trainer, so
here goes. I know, I just bought it and haven't given it a chance yet, but I
gotta do what feels right.
2002 Kolb Firestar II For Sale or Trade - 29 hours TTAE, 503 DCDI, 3
Blade ground adjustable IVO prop / B-box, Tundra Tires, BRS-750, EIS with
VSI/Fuel/Altitude (vertical card compass and ASI on panel as well),
Steerable tailwheel, beautiful custom interior, full and partial enclosure
included, external antanae, differential heal brakes, custom paint. Pictures
can be seen at http://www.shutterfly.com/os.jsp?i=67b0de21b336399b2568 .
Want a two seat trainer 3 Axis or trike, tandem or side by side as this is
too much of a hot rod taildragger for me (novice pilot). Asking 13,500 and
will include a Compaq Ipaq with GPS in the deal. Fairly firm on price for
sale, however would be willing to work a better deal for a trade. Plane is
in Charlotte NC, phone 704-236-6953 or email at aldersonjames2002@yahoo.com.
James Alderson
Message 33
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SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT_OE, USER_IN_WHITELIST)
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
Kolbers,
Gee guy's & gal's, looks as if I need to brush up on my HTML skills. Changed the
home page and now it should be better. I will build the entire site later this
weekend with photos and text of the EVO/AIR project. In the mean time check
out the main page @ www.evoair.0catch.com
pp....
N4958P
Do not archive
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Color match? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Cooley" <johnc@datasync.com>
Hi Ron and Gang,
Who powder coated your cage? If it was done by Kolb I would call them and
ask. If not, good luck. There are many shades of white powder coating. One
thing you might do if you plan on using the poly-tone or aerothane is to get
the poly-fiber color card and try to match your coating. I believe you have
a distributor nearby as best I remember from off list email. I would carry
one of the powder coated parts to the distributor and try to match it there
if you have a smaller part that you can carry. With that being said, I had
my Twinstar powder coated white at a nearby shop and then ordered insignia
white poly-tone. It matched perfect.
Good Luck,
John Cooley
.
> Can anyone tell me what color of white best matches the white powder
coating
> on my cage and tail boom?
>
> Ron Williams
> Firestar II
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Color match? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: RWilliJill@aol.com
John
It was done by whoever Kolb sends them to. My kit was received in September
of 1999. I didn't realize there might be a difference in different shops that
do the procedure so I'll take your suggestion and call Kolb and maybe they
can tell me.
Thanks John
Ron W
do not archive
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Paint Question? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Cooley" <johnc@datasync.com>
Hi Don/Gang,
I thing your color choices are in very good taste. This next part I say with
reluctance because of the Miller's, (great people) but I personally wouldn't
use the Poly-tone or aerothane cub yellow again after the experience I've
had with it. Let me explain as I have been wanting to get this off my chest.
I spent a lot of time and money on my Firestar in the covering / painting
process. I used finish tapes on all the surfaces, used the full silver
process etc. I painted the boom tube, landing gear, lift struts etc with cub
yellow aerothane and the fabric with poly-tone. I had to mix poly-tone cub
yellow and orange yellow poly-tone to get a decent match to the cub yellow
aerothane. I didn't mind doing this. The problem started about 1 year after
the painting process. I started noticing bluish looking spots in the yellow
paint. It almost looks like you took a rag that was saturated with Pennzoil
and slung it on the paint. It has a mottled look in most places. In other
places it is a cluster of small spots. Even the aerothane cub yellow has
similar streaks/spots in it. My belief is that it is the pigmentation in the
cub yellow paint and or reaction to the sun and elements. I don't know this
for sure and if it was just my plane that was like this I would have wrote
it off as being my fault in the painting process. It is mostly on the top
surfaces, but not all of it.I have seen another plane that is painted with
cub yellow aerothane that has similar spots. Again I have only seen this in
the cub yellow. I have tried all kinds of cleaning methods including what is
in the Poly-Fiber manual. The only way to remove them is to start removing
the paint. I have also used insignia white and bahama blue without problem.
Would be interested in hearing others experiences with the cub yellow or any
yellow poly-fiber paint.
Later,
John Cooley
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
> I should mention...my final colors are gonna be Cub yellow with Pontiac
red trim...Ever see a bird like that???(LOL)
>
> Not goint to be exactly like yours John, but definately inspired by Miss
P'fer , for I just think shes a beauty!
> http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
> Don Gherardini-
> FireFly 098
Message 37
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
I thought the same way when I trial fit my windshield, so I built it to be
in-line with the nose cone. Figured there'd be less noise, and wind
intrusion. We'll soon find out. There's a brief description on my website
under "Building Vamoose," "Gull Wing Doors." Sorry, I don't have a picture
handy. What I did was epoxy strips of lexan around the inside of the nose
cone lip, for the windshield to seat against. Gogittum Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Neitzel" <neitzel@newnorth.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: Windshield
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Neitzel" <neitzel@newnorth.net>
>
> Greetings
>
> I trial fit the windshield on my Mark III today by pulling it into place
with some nylon straps. With the lexan on the outside of the top lip of the
nose cone there is a considerable gap between the windshield posts and the
lexan near the instrument panel. Is this appropriate? Looks to me that
air flow would be better and that the lexan would fit better if it were
tucked underneath the top lip of the nose cone.
>
Message 38
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
I'm sure glad you and your passenger are OK, John; and I'm sure that as has
been said, it's an experience she'll never forget. You either for that
matter. Too bad that her introduction to flying ended so dramatically.
Too bad, too, about your plane................I still think yours is (was
??) one of the prettiest airplanes I've ever seen. The tremendous amount of
thought, quality of workmanship, and precision of detail is incredible.
Saddened Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wood, John T." <woodjt@spawar.navy.mil>
Subject: Kolb-List: Accident
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Wood, John T." <woodjt@spawar.navy.mil>
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> As a few of you have noticed, from the accident reports, my Firestar was
> involved in an accident this past Saturday. I was reluctant to discuss it
> until the FAA and a chance to look at it. What they had determined is that
> my "new" Powerfin prop delaminated and consequently struck the aileron
tube.
> The new prop had only about 12 hrs on it. I was about 1500 agl when this
> occurred. It made a very loud noise and got the attention a several folks
on
> the ground. I immediately pulled the power back and began setting up for
> landing the plane. Below me was a grass field. I positioned the plane to
> take advantage on the long direction of the field. As I got closer to the
> ground it became apparent that is was not grass but 18" new growth from
the
> recent rains. The ground was soft and wet. As the rollout continued, I
could
> see the tires were starting to settle into the soft ground. A combination
of
> the soft ground the tall grass a plowed field and the recent rains, the
> plane came to an abrupt stop at about 25 mph and as in slow motion the
nose
> dipped forward and the rest of the plane followed coming to rest upside
> down. My passenger and I were left hanging upside down. I undid my seat
belt
> and the then undid hers. I was conducting young eagle flights which I have
> done ever since I have started flying my Firestar. We were both not
injured.
> With all the forces in play, had the cage not been made of chromally, I am
> sure the outcome would have been different.
>
> The insurance representative, I could tell, was having a hard time trying
to
> figure out how he was going to evaluate the damage. He was new at this and
> had not probably reviewed too many experimental homebuilt airplanes. How
do
> you value a homebuilders time or apply a standard when there are no shops
> that would even work on one of our planes. I do have hull coverage, so I
> will be compensated in some way. The actual damage includes bent cage
front
> and top, both wings bent, wing struts bent, prop broken and rudder bent.
As
> the engine was still operating at idle at the time of the flip, the engine
> would have to be at least completely gone through.
>
> I was so looking forward to Monument Valley. I am not sure now what my
plans
> will be. I love flying my plane and I usually get out at least once a week
> and take a little jaunt around the countryside. I am going to miss this
> while I work on getting a flying solution in place.
>
> Take care,
>
> John
>
>
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Firestar II for Sale |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
Nice airplane. Can't tell from looking - is it a two seater? Does it have a
back seat or is that just a divider? I have someone in mind who might be
interested.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Do Not Archive
At 05:57 PM 3/14/03 -0700, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Alderson, James"
><James_Alderson@jdedwards.com>
>
>Hate to do it, but I think I am going to feel a little more comfortable
>learning and getting a couple hours on a tricycle gear two place trainer, so
>here goes. I know, I just bought it and haven't given it a chance yet, but I
>gotta do what feels right.
>
>2002 Kolb Firestar II For Sale or Trade - 29 hours TTAE, 503 DCDI, 3
>Blade ground adjustable IVO prop / B-box, Tundra Tires, BRS-750, EIS with
>VSI/Fuel/Altitude (vertical card compass and ASI on panel as well),
>Steerable tailwheel, beautiful custom interior, full and partial enclosure
>included, external antanae, differential heal brakes, custom paint. Pictures
>can be seen at http://www.shutterfly.com/os.jsp?i=67b0de21b336399b2568 .
>Want a two seat trainer 3 Axis or trike, tandem or side by side as this is
>too much of a hot rod taildragger for me (novice pilot). Asking 13,500 and
>will include a Compaq Ipaq with GPS in the deal. Fairly firm on price for
>sale, however would be willing to work a better deal for a trade. Plane is
>in Charlotte NC, phone 704-236-6953 or email at aldersonjames2002@yahoo.com.
>
>James Alderson
>
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Color match? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: <rowedl@highstream.net>
Insignia white Polytone matches my powder coating fine.
Powder Craft, who coated for TOK did my fuselage, I had a local company
called Delp family powder coating do a couple flap arms, and they look the
same as Powder Crafts.
Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: <RWilliJill@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Color match?
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: RWilliJill@aol.com
>
> John
>
> It was done by whoever Kolb sends them to. My kit was received in
September
> of 1999. I didn't realize there might be a difference in different shops
that
> do the procedure so I'll take your suggestion and call Kolb and maybe they
> can tell me.
>
> Thanks John
>
> Ron W
> do not archive
>
>
Message 41
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: <rowedl@highstream.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Bourne <biglar@gogittum.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Windshield
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
>
> I thought the same way when I trial fit my windshield, so I built it to be
> in-line with the nose cone. Figured there'd be less noise, and wind
> intrusion. We'll soon find out. There's a brief description on my
website
> under "Building Vamoose," "Gull Wing Doors." Sorry, I don't have a
picture
> handy. What I did was epoxy strips of lexan around the inside of the nose
> cone lip, for the windshield to seat against. Gogittum Lar.
>
Richard,
As Lar said, you surely want a strong lip for the windscreen to set on or it
will turn inside out and possibly land on your lap, setting on the nose cone
gives it a large part of its strength. I don't think the drag issue is a
concern, these are not RV-6s.
Denny
> Larry Bourne
> Palm Springs, CA
> Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
> www.gogittum.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Neitzel" <neitzel@newnorth.net>
> To: "kolb list" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Windshield
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Neitzel"
<neitzel@newnorth.net>
> >
> > Greetings
> >
> > I trial fit the windshield on my Mark III today by pulling it into place
> with some nylon straps. With the lexan on the outside of the top lip of
the
> nose cone there is a considerable gap between the windshield posts and the
> lexan near the instrument panel. Is this appropriate? Looks to me that
> air flow would be better and that the lexan would fit better if it were
> tucked underneath the top lip of the nose cone.
> >
>
>
Message 42
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Yah, the lip hasta be strong, cause there'll prob'ly be a fair amount of
force on it. My concern wasn't so much for drag, (on a Kolb ??) but for
possible whistling with the edges out in the main airstream, and for it
possibly acting as a scoop to funnel air right into my face, if it wasn't a
perfect fit..............considering my precision chop, hack & fit
techniques. Theory, yes, but sounds reasonable to me. Is it my turn now ??
Let's see - Aluminum Butcher is already taken, and I don't live in Branden,
anyway. How 'bout the Lexan Butcher of the Desert ?? Windy
Lar. (Hoooooo - wide open..........:-) )
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <rowedl@highstream.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Windshield
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: <rowedl@highstream.net>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Larry Bourne <biglar@gogittum.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Windshield
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
> >
> > I thought the same way when I trial fit my windshield, so I built it to
be
> > in-line with the nose cone. Figured there'd be less noise, and wind
> > intrusion. We'll soon find out. There's a brief description on my
> website
> > under "Building Vamoose," "Gull Wing Doors." Sorry, I don't have a
> picture
> > handy. What I did was epoxy strips of lexan around the inside of the
nose
> > cone lip, for the windshield to seat against. Gogittum Lar.
> >
> Richard,
> As Lar said, you surely want a strong lip for the windscreen to set on or
it
> will turn inside out and possibly land on your lap, setting on the nose
cone
> gives it a large part of its strength. I don't think the drag issue is a
> concern, these are not RV-6s.
> Denny
>
>
> > Larry Bourne
> > Palm Springs, CA
> > Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
> > www.gogittum.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Richard Neitzel" <neitzel@newnorth.net>
> > To: "kolb list" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Kolb-List: Windshield
> >
> >
> > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Neitzel"
> <neitzel@newnorth.net>
> > >
> > > Greetings
> > >
> > > I trial fit the windshield on my Mark III today by pulling it into
place
> > with some nylon straps. With the lexan on the outside of the top lip of
> the
> > nose cone there is a considerable gap between the windshield posts and
the
> > lexan near the instrument panel. Is this appropriate? Looks to me
that
> > air flow would be better and that the lexan would fit better if it were
> > tucked underneath the top lip of the nose cone.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
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