Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:58 AM - Sun & Fun List. (Airgriff2@aol.com)
2. 04:36 AM - Re: Sun & Fun List. (John Hauck)
3. 05:14 AM - Re: kalifornia kolb (Dave Rains)
4. 05:16 AM - Re: Mark III Xtra (dr jay)
5. 07:22 AM - kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor (CaptainRon)
6. 07:30 AM - Re: Re: Mark III Xtra (Gherkins Tim-rp3420)
7. 07:42 AM - Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor (Larry Bourne)
8. 07:59 AM - Re: Motel for Sun 'n Fun (Timandjan@aol.com)
9. 08:34 AM - Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor (Rick & Martha Neilsen)
10. 10:35 AM - Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor (CaptainRon)
11. 11:21 AM - Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor (Jeremy Casey)
12. 11:43 AM - Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor (Larry Bourne)
13. 11:51 AM - Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor (Rick & Martha Neilsen)
14. 04:49 PM - Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor (CaptainRon)
15. 05:10 PM - Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor (CaptainRon)
16. 05:39 PM - Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor (Larry Bourne)
17. 05:55 PM - Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor (Rick & Martha Neilsen)
18. 06:04 PM - Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor (CaptainRon)
19. 06:07 PM - Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor (CaptainRon)
20. 06:14 PM - Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor (CaptainRon)
Message 1
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Airgriff2@aol.com
Can't seem to find the list of people going to Sun & Fun. Can someone please
put up an address or link to it?
Thanks
Bob Griffin
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Sun & Fun List. |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> Can't seem to find the list of people going to Sun & Fun. Can someone please
> put up an address or link to it?
> Thanks
> Bob Griffin
Morning Bob/Gang:
It is on John Croke's web site:
http://www.kolbpilot.com/
john h
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Message 3
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Dave Rains <rr@htg.net>
Don't know him either, however class C at Camarillo airport, flew my FireStar in
there once.
Dave.
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: John Hauck [SMTP:jhauck@elmore.rr.com]
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: kalifornia kolb
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> G'day all, is this a lister? -BB do not archive
Name FULLER LAWRENCE W
Street 7925 DUSTY LN
City SOMIS State CALIFORNIA Zip Code
93066-7901
County VENTURA
Country UNITED STATES
Morning Bob/Guys:
I don't know him.
It is a 1997 Mark III.
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Mark III Xtra |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: dr jay <drjay10002000@yahoo.com>
Greets to you all:
Does anyone known of a MarkIII Xtra in the Phoenix Arizona area that I could get
a look at? I have a PPL and am interested in this plane.
TIA, drjay
---------------------------------
Message 5
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| Subject: | kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <CaptainRon@theriver.com>
3/21/03 5:57Dave Rains
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Dave Rains <rr@htg.net>
>
> Don't know him either, however class C at Camarillo airport, flew my FireStar
> in there once.
> Dave.
> do not archive
====================
I spoke with someone who knows him (or of him), and they indicated that it
was a prop failure on a Revmaster engine. I was not told what sort of prop
it was, except that it was one of the composit (plastic) props.
Revmaster seems to be an interesting source for engines. Anyone on the list
has any experience with Revmaster engines, and or the turbocharged version
(or rather the Turbo normalized engine). The price is kinda high but it will
give me 80hp up to 15K ft. Seems to fit the requirement for high desert
flying.
do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Mark III Xtra |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Gherkins Tim-rp3420 <rp3420@motorola.com>
TIA,
My uncle and myself are building a Mark III Xtra here in the valley of the sun.
We are located in Gilbert, a 20 minute drive S/E of the greater Phx area. Give
him a call and come and see us, we are working on the plane early tomorrow
morning and afternoon. His name is Craig Nelson and can be located at his place
of business at 480-632-9300.
Regards,
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: dr jay [mailto:drjay10002000@yahoo.com]
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mark III Xtra
--> Kolb-List message posted by: dr jay <drjay10002000@yahoo.com>
Greets to you all:
Does anyone known of a MarkIII Xtra in the Phoenix Arizona area that I could get
a look at? I have a PPL and am interested in this plane.
TIA, drjay
---------------------------------
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
The Revmaster is a VW conversion, and does fine, but it's still a direct
drive VW, and needs a reduction drive. I visited their factory in Hesperia
several years ago, and they showed me a really great new 3 liter air/water
cooled engine that looked to be a real dandy. The staff was 1/2 asleep -
what there was of it, and management about the same. They had a workforce
of 2, the day I was there, and only build an engine as orders come in.
Seems a shame; they've sold a lot of engines, and the new one, if they ever
market it, should be a winner. They WEre pleasant to deal with, but I had a
very strong impression of cobwebs and sleeping in the corner while I was
there. Disappointed Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "CaptainRon" <CaptainRon@theriver.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <CaptainRon@theriver.com>
>
> 3/21/03 5:57Dave Rains
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Dave Rains <rr@htg.net>
> >
> > Don't know him either, however class C at Camarillo airport, flew my
FireStar
> > in there once.
> > Dave.
> > do not archive
> ====================
>
> I spoke with someone who knows him (or of him), and they indicated that it
> was a prop failure on a Revmaster engine. I was not told what sort of prop
> it was, except that it was one of the composit (plastic) props.
> Revmaster seems to be an interesting source for engines. Anyone on the
list
> has any experience with Revmaster engines, and or the turbocharged version
> (or rather the Turbo normalized engine). The price is kinda high but it
will
> give me 80hp up to 15K ft. Seems to fit the requirement for high desert
> flying.
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Motel for Sun 'n Fun |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Timandjan@aol.com
Hey guys, I was able to get a room no problem for April 2,3,4 for myself at
the place Duane mentioned in a previous email. If anybody else needs a place,
I am by myself and would be glad to share with a fellow Kolber. I leave early
and arrive late, stay at the show most of the time. Basically want a shower
and a bed. So I would be glad to share. It's cheap, 60.00 a night so let me
know. Email me off the list or call.
703 318 7896.
tim
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 9
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| Subject: | kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rick & Martha Neilsen" <neilsenrm@cs.com>
Revmaster at one point was THE company for VW aircraft engines. I have heard
reports that they had crankshaft breakages when people used anything but two
bladed wood props on these direct drive engines (any direct drive VW
conversion). Note these are direct drive engines and they will not produce
the thrust that we need for our MKIIIs. Its not the horse power, its the
thrust that makes us fly. If the engine has to turn more than around 2500
RPM to make its power it needs a reduction drive.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIII
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of CaptainRon
Subject: Kolb-List: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor
--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <CaptainRon@theriver.com>
3/21/03 5:57Dave Rains
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Dave Rains <rr@htg.net>
>
> Don't know him either, however class C at Camarillo airport, flew my
FireStar
> in there once.
> Dave.
> do not archive
====================
I spoke with someone who knows him (or of him), and they indicated that it
was a prop failure on a Revmaster engine. I was not told what sort of prop
it was, except that it was one of the composit (plastic) props.
Revmaster seems to be an interesting source for engines. Anyone on the list
has any experience with Revmaster engines, and or the turbocharged version
(or rather the Turbo normalized engine). The price is kinda high but it will
give me 80hp up to 15K ft. Seems to fit the requirement for high desert
flying.
do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <CaptainRon@theriver.com>
3/21/03 9:29Rick & Martha Neilsen
> If the engine has to turn more than around 2500
> RPM to make its power it needs a reduction drive.
================
Your above kinda surprised me :-)
Why does it need a reduction drive if it makes its rated power at 3K?
Production aircraft make theirs at around 2.7K
do not archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" <jrcasey@ldl.net>
"Production" aircraft STALL about as fast as a Kolb cruises. Smaller
prop with more RPM is more efficient the faster you go...but Kolb's
aren't fast.
We've beat this horse to death MANY times...play around in the archives
and you will find much discussion on this one...
Jeremy Casey
jrcasey@ldl.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of CaptainRon
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor
--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <CaptainRon@theriver.com>
3/21/03 9:29Rick & Martha Neilsen
> If the engine has to turn more than around 2500
> RPM to make its power it needs a reduction drive.
================
Your above kinda surprised me :-)
Why does it need a reduction drive if it makes its rated power at 3K?
Production aircraft make theirs at around 2.7K
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
How to put it in a nutshell ?? Certified aircraft engines are an old, old
design that originated from the need to develop sufficient torque and
horsepower, within the limitations of prop speed, which pretty much limits
you to 2500 - 2700 rpm or so. This requires cubic inches to
work.............for example, the 0-320 Lycoming on Cessna 172's. They use
320 cubic inches to achieve around 160 hp, with lots of torque. Attempts
were made to get around that, at least partially, by the geared engines such
as the GO engines used on the Cessna 175. Problems with those engines, as I
understand it, arose from improper operation by the pilots, rather than the
design itself. If I remember a-right, Revmaster engines, and most other
popular VW conversions are 2180 cc displacement, (a little over 120 cubic
inches) and the advertisements are pretty much correct - around 80 hp @
3000+ rpm, but not a whole lot of torque. This creates a need for a fast
turning, comparatively small diameter propeller, which will work fairly well
on a small, high speed design such as a KR, or Sonex. Our planes need a
larger, slower turning prop for best efficiency. (didn't we just go thru
this ??) The engines will develop more - much more horsepower - as rpm's
increase, but we can't turn the props that fast due to tip speed
considerations, so up comes the need for a re-drive. Vamoose' engine is
2110 cc, and would fall into that 80 hp/3000+ rpm band - BUT - with the
camshaft, fuel injection, electronic ignition, etc., it's pretty well
documented that it'll run around 140 hp @ 5000 rpm. Add the reduction
drive, and I'll be turning a 72", 3 bladed prop with 13 deg of pitch (or
more) at the tips at a more realistic 2500 rpm. This effectively almost
doubles the torque, aside from friction losses. The best example I can
think of is Richard Neilson, with his 80 hp VW powered Mk III. As a direct
drive, the 912 powered (80 hp) Mk III's ran away from him, and it didn't
take long for him to get tired of THAT. He installed a redrive, and can now
keep up with the big kids and also carry a passenger much more comfortably,
. Same exact engine, and what a difference. This is also why I begged
Paul Petty to put a redrive on his HD conversion, and "don't strangle it by
not letting it breathe." Gas engines are just coming into their real power
band at 3000 rpm. Hot Rodder Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "CaptainRon" <CaptainRon@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <CaptainRon@theriver.com>
>
> 3/21/03 9:29Rick & Martha Neilsen
>
> > If the engine has to turn more than around 2500
> > RPM to make its power it needs a reduction drive.
> ================
>
>
> Your above kinda surprised me :-)
>
> Why does it need a reduction drive if it makes its rated power at 3K?
> Production aircraft make theirs at around 2.7K
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rick & Martha Neilsen" <neilsenrm@cs.com>
The primary concern I have is the efficiency of the prop. Or the ability of
that engine to turn HP into thrust. My old direct drive VW would turn a 60 X
28 two bladed prop to 3600 RPM and a good portion of the HP was turned into
noise. I had to throttle back to 2500 RPM to talk on the radio, at 3600 I
HAD to wear ear plugs under my headphones. My new reduction drive VW turns a
three bladed 72" prop app 2240 RPM with the engine turning 3600 RPM with
TWICE the thrust. Our Kolb MKIIIs need a 70+ inch prop to get clean air and
have good thrust. If you turn a prop over 70 inches long over 2500 RPM you
will turn a good portion of the HP into noise not thrust. And the longer the
prop the slower the prop RPM needs to be.
You are right that SOME production airplanes turn 2700 RPM on takeoff and
they are loud. Most production airplanes turn around 2300 RPM at cruse for
efficiency.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIII
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of CaptainRon
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor
--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <CaptainRon@theriver.com>
3/21/03 9:29Rick & Martha Neilsen
> If the engine has to turn more than around 2500
> RPM to make its power it needs a reduction drive.
================
Your above kinda surprised me :-)
Why does it need a reduction drive if it makes its rated power at 3K?
Production aircraft make theirs at around 2.7K
do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <CaptainRon@theriver.com>
3/21/03 12:20Jeremy Casey
> Smaller
> prop with more RPM is more efficient the faster you go...but Kolb's
> aren't fast.
==================
But the above is false! :-)
do not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <CaptainRon@theriver.com>
3/21/03 12:43Larry Bourne
> He installed a redrive, and can now
> keep up with the big kids and also carry a passenger much more comfortably,
> . Same exact engine, and what a difference.
====================
Yes I remember his posts on that.
That makes sense because he effectively increased his horsepower, by revving
his engine higher and keeping his prop speed with an rdu within normal
limits.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
As I understand it, the horsepower remains the same...............the
redrive, if 2:1, doubles the effective torque, minus friction losses.
Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "CaptainRon" <CaptainRon@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <CaptainRon@theriver.com>
>
> 3/21/03 12:43Larry Bourne
>
> > He installed a redrive, and can now
> > keep up with the big kids and also carry a passenger much more
comfortably,
> > . Same exact engine, and what a difference.
> ====================
>
> Yes I remember his posts on that.
> That makes sense because he effectively increased his horsepower, by
revving
> his engine higher and keeping his prop speed with an rdu within normal
> limits.
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rick & Martha Neilsen" <neilsenrm@cs.com>
Actually I'm not turning any more RPMs with the reduction drive (1.61 to 1).
The engine size and engine RPMs are the same. Only the reduction drive and
the prop has changed. With the reduction drive I'm able to turn a much
larger prop at a lower prop RPM. The net result is more efficient transfer
of HP to thrust. I never would have believed it but I'm getting app. twice
the thrust. The performance differences in flight are spectacular.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIII
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of CaptainRon
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor
--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <CaptainRon@theriver.com>
3/21/03 12:43Larry Bourne
> He installed a redrive, and can now
> keep up with the big kids and also carry a passenger much more
comfortably,
> . Same exact engine, and what a difference.
====================
Yes I remember his posts on that.
That makes sense because he effectively increased his horsepower, by revving
his engine higher and keeping his prop speed with an rdu within normal
limits.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <CaptainRon@theriver.com>
3/21/03 18:39Larry Bourne
> As I understand it, the horsepower remains the same...............the
> redrive, if 2:1, doubles the effective torque, minus friction losses.
> Lar.
=============
Right! I saw his post just after I sent mine. Yes his motor was turning at
3.6K which was putting out whatever hp,, his prop however was over speeding.
By interjecting an rdu he brought his prop within limits, getting them to
make mostly thrust, not mostly noise. :-)
Any of those variables has an impact on the other, it will be fun to play
with.
Btw how did you route your brake lines? I just installed the brake
cylinders, dual breaks, and am wondering about the hose routing to the
wheels. I have no idea what it looks like with the floor in, and the pod on.
Can they be run under the floor or do they run along the sides in cabin?
I like to run it under the floor but aint sure about space in that area.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <CaptainRon@theriver.com>
3/21/03 18:51Rick & Martha Neilsen
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rick & Martha Neilsen" <neilsenrm@cs.com>
>
> Actually I'm not turning any more RPMs with the reduction drive (1.61 to 1).
>==============
This is getting to be funny, no sooner i post and a new one with a twist
comes in. Yes I saw you post seconds after I sent my reply to BigLar, and it
happened yet again. :-)
do not archive
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <CaptainRon@theriver.com>
3/21/03 18:51Rick & Martha Neilsen
> I never would have believed it but I'm getting app. twice
> the thrust. The performance differences in flight are spectacular.
===========
In fact I was trying to calculate how much thrust you were loosing because
of the over speed but I could not find that site that calculated tip speeds
(I thought I had it bookmarked). I was going to see at what diameter of your
prop you were over speeding and then subtract it from the rest of the span.
and figure the thrust loss from there. It would have given us a ball park
figure.
do not archive
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