Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:18 AM - Re: SPRING LANDING GEAR (John Cooley)
2. 04:42 AM - EVO/AIR (Paul Petty)
3. 05:32 AM - Shoulder Belt / BRS Deployment Question (Alderson, James)
4. 06:09 AM - Sun "n Fun Gatherings (H MITCHELL)
5. 06:39 AM - Homer Kolb (Jim Hauck)
6. 07:16 AM - Major Pain (Mike Pierzina)
7. 07:25 AM - Re: EVO/AIR (Larry Bourne)
8. 08:27 AM - Re: EVO/AIR/ new 2si's???? (Don Gherardini)
9. 09:19 AM - Re: Shoulder Belt / BRS Deployment Question (SR3SA2L1@aol.com)
10. 09:39 AM - Re: EVO/AIR/ new 2si's???? (Olenik Aviation)
11. 09:40 AM - Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor (GeoR38@aol.com)
12. 10:58 AM - Re: Shoulder Belt / BRS Deployment Question (Johann G.)
13. 01:15 PM - Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor (CaptainRon)
14. 01:39 PM - Re: Shoulder Belt / BRS Deployment Question (H MITCHELL)
15. 01:44 PM - [ Ed Steuber ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
16. 01:51 PM - [ Dave Pelletier ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
17. 01:53 PM - [ Possum ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
18. 02:04 PM - Props (John Hauck)
19. 02:18 PM - redrive (Paul Petty)
20. 03:09 PM - Re: redrive (Larry Bourne)
21. 03:43 PM - [ Paul Petty ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
22. 05:07 PM - Ed's ultra (Bob Bean)
23. 05:31 PM - Re: Props (CaptainRon)
24. 06:57 PM - Re: Props (Don Gherardini)
25. 07:10 PM - Re: Props (GeoR38@aol.com)
26. 07:24 PM - Re: Instruments for sale (Christopher Armstrong)
27. 07:35 PM - Sun n Fun questions (dama)
28. 07:59 PM - Re: Sun n Fun questions (John Hauck)
29. 08:11 PM - Re: Sun n Fun questions (John Hauck)
30. 09:23 PM - Re: Props (CaptainRon)
31. 09:24 PM - Re: Props (Christopher Armstrong)
32. 09:29 PM - Re: Props (Don Gherardini)
33. 10:04 PM - Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor (TSO1953@aol.com)
34. 10:10 PM - Re: Props (Christopher Armstrong)
35. 10:24 PM - Re: Props (TSO1953@aol.com)
36. 10:24 PM - Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor (Christopher Armstrong)
37. 10:32 PM - Re: Props (TSO1953@aol.com)
38. 10:41 PM - Re: Props (TSO1953@aol.com)
39. 10:57 PM - Props (Richard Pike)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: SPRING LANDING GEAR |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Cooley" <johnc@datasync.com>
Hi David / Gang,
Only place to get these other than home brewing something is TNK (
http://www.tnkolbaircraft.com/ ). Go to the "Online Store" link and look
under the Mark III Classic or Mark III Extra options. One thing to check
before ordering is about the brake attachment. Sounds like the new steel
gear is made so that the Tracy Obrien disc brakes will bolt up to them. Good
luck.
Later,
John Cooley
"do not archive"
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Key" <dhkey@msn.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: SPRING LANDING GEAR
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Key" <dhkey@msn.com>
>
> Well, I finally bent my landing gear in a very rough cow pasture in my
Mark
> III. I've seen a spring landing gear for the Kolbs but I don't know where.
> Does someone know where I can get them?
> Thanks,
> Dave
Message 2
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SpamAssassin (Message larger than max testing size)
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
Ron,
Started the HD last night with redrive fitted and without the prop to check for
clearance. Everything is ok. Revved it up to 5 grand! Mounted the prop and quit....
Going to weld in those support angles this morning and finish some wiring.
We have a video digital camera and plan to film the disaster!
Message 3
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| Subject: | Shoulder Belt / BRS Deployment Question |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Alderson, James" <James_Alderson@jdedwards.com>
In the process of getting into my Firestar II to do some SLOW speed taxi
testing, I opted to do it with the shoulder harness on (obviously). In doing
so, and tightening them up sufficiently, something struck me. I could not
reach the mags key to turn off the engine in the air in order to deploy the
BRS! I started looking at a few of the pictures that people have here and
there on the web, and almost all that I could find had placed the mags
somewhere out of reach for anyone except Stretch Armstrong (am I dating
myself there?). So, in case I don't end up being able to sell my Firestar
II, does anyone have any pictures or suggestions of where to place the mags
that is more suitable for an emergency? Thanks.
James Alderson
Message 4
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| Subject: | Sun "n Fun Gatherings |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
Most of us visited the New Kolb display several times during the day to see who
was there and what was new then we all gathered there at the end of the day.
We decided where to go to eat and worked out rides for those who did not have
transportation. Most of the nationally franchised eateries have locations in South
Lakeland and the folks that have been coming to S 'N F for years know the
good local places.
It was really great to meet so may others with the same interests. Several Kolbers
brought photo albums which were outstanding. I think we may have a tradition
developing here...
Duane the plane, Tallahassee, FL
do not archive
Message 5
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Hauck" <jimh474@velocityonline.net>
Folks;
I spent some time with Homer yesterday afternoon.
He is rebuilding a J-3 and restoring some of his collector John Deere
tractors. Of which his has a barn full.
He will be at Sun & Fun.
Jim Hauck
Message 6
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Mike Pierzina" <planecrazzzy@lycos.com>
Hey Major Pain,
These guys "DO" try to help you......
So you think anything that is found in the archives is "FACT"? I haven't heard
of anything going through a verification process....you'll find that there are
alot of contradiction thru-out the archives, so answer the question.
or are you Ignant or Stew Ped....
Gotta Fly...
Planecrazzzy , Mike in MN
Starting Poly Spray - FSII,503,3 blade IVO
SNIP>>>
As for prop speeds, and thrust you can dig through the archives and
enlighten yourself.
Ignorance is curable, stupidity is not. :-)
---
Sometimes you just have to take the leap
and build your wings on the way down...
Gotta Fly...
Message 7
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
You must have quite the shop - I'm envious. Keep us posted. Seems like
you said you have a flywheel on that engine ?? Have you weighed the whole
thing yet ?? Lar. Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: EVO/AIR
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
>
> Ron,
> Started the HD last night with redrive fitted and without the prop to
check for clearance. Everything is ok. Revved it up to 5 grand! Mounted the
prop and quit.... Going to weld in those support angles this morning and
finish some wiring.
> We have a video digital camera and plan to film the disaster!
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: EVO/AIR/ new 2si's???? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Paul, I for one , am watching you posts, wishing I was there hep'in....and
hopeing terribly that you are successful in getting some sort of viable
alternative powerplant to what is in the so-called "mainstream" of
lightplane power!
BTW Kolbers, Speaking of Engines....Being in the Engine biz...I have heard
rumors that 2SI will announce 3 more new engines at Sun'n'Fun for us
Fly-boys. I come by these rumors at various meetings at Honda sometimes as
sort of a "keep an eye on the competition" informational gathering orders,
FYI's , and just general discussions amoungst peers.
NO...we at Honda does not consider 2SI a threat to our market share of
course but we are always looking at companies trying to blaze down the path
of inovation in the markets, be it with technology or market tactics or
distribution methods or what ever...
Anyhow what I heard is at some sort of seminar they will unveil something
for us engine guys to keep an eye on. Rumor has it ( now this is the "not
too sure part") they will show a heavy fuel spark ignited version and a new
fuel injected, computer controlled 3 cyl 2 cycle for the aircraft people
that someone here thinks might be a player in the PWC biz....(This is where
Honda is interested of course, not aircraft). and also 2 cyl 50 hp Liquid
cooled . The 50hp I saw at a month ago at a booth at a show and it impressed
me quite a lot..looks like a real lightweight.
I wonder if anybody on this list is "in the know" about these possible new
offerings and what day and where this "2si" seminar might be at Sun'n' fun.
???
I wasn't planning on going due to Business considerations...but if I was
able to "expense" the trip on the company tab...hmmmmm.....?????
Also....how hard is it to get a checkout in a Kolb during this show...??
My Firefly is coming along well and the time is near for me to get a ride .
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Don Gherardini-
FireFly 098
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Belt / BRS Deployment Question |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: SR3SA2L1@aol.com
Hi James,
You may want to consider putting in a "Kill" switch if you can't reach the
mag/starter key.
Steve
Message 10
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| Subject: | EVO/AIR/ new 2si's???? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Olenik Aviation" <olenik-aviation@buyitsellitfixit.com>
Don,
You have some good sources I think. Although, except for the 430L-50, these
are all still in development. The 430L-50 has been completed and ran, but
is still in testing. They took their 460L-45, went back to the original
bore of the 430's, put high compression heads on it, dual Bing 84 carbs, and
made provision for a pull start. This makes for a very light and powerful
engine. In testing it has been a little hard to pull with those high
compression heads. I believe they are going to install automatic
compression release valves that will automatically close after starting. I
think the whole engine package weighs not much more than a 447 and is
supposed to put out 503 power at the price of a 447. Hopefully, I will get
to do some of the flight testing for this engine sometime in the next year.
The heavy fuel, spark ignited engine is something 2SI has had for a while.
I believe they have a 100 hp 4-cylinder which is direct port fuel injected
which allows the heavy fuel to be atomized to allow for the spark ignition.
Rumor has it that the US military is looking at this engine to replace the
Rotax engines on their Predator UAV's because the Rotax engine violates
their one fuel forward policies. I don't think they have any near term
plans of making this available for the civilian market yet, but maybe
someday.
The 690L-70, now that they have taken care of all the major bugs, is gaining
more and more popularity all the time. At $1000 to $1300 less than a Rotax
582, making better power, it is very attractive. However, there is no doubt
that an electronic fuel injected model may be even more attractive if they
can make it work nicely without being too expensive. It was supposed to be
a little bit of a secret, but I've learned that the prototype of this 690FI
is going to be ready for testing soon for aircraft applications. There is a
possibility that I may be doing some flight testing for this as well, but I
won't know for sure for several weeks. For myself, I am happy with the Bing
carbs, but if we can make a reliable fuel injection, that could be a really
nice feature for some folks. Since the carb version is so much less than a
Rotax 582, they think they can go to the electronic fuel injection and be in
the same price range as a carbureted 582. Of course the 690 still requires
less maintenance than the 582 in both cost and frequency.
None of these are yet available to the general public, and still in testing.
If tests do not go well, they could very well get scrapped. I really do
think, however, that 2SI is a serious player in the UL market. I think you
will see more and more of their engines being used in this market in the
coming years. I have been in contact with some airframe makers that have or
plan to develop installation packages for the 2SI engines and some have even
asked us to do the development work for them.
Tom Olenik
Olenik Aviation
http://www.buyitsellitfixit.com
877-247-6686 ...we support what we sell.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Don Gherardini
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: EVO/AIR/ new 2si's????
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Paul, I for one , am watching you posts, wishing I was there hep'in....and
hopeing terribly that you are successful in getting some sort of viable
alternative powerplant to what is in the so-called "mainstream" of
lightplane power!
BTW Kolbers, Speaking of Engines....Being in the Engine biz...I have heard
rumors that 2SI will announce 3 more new engines at Sun'n'Fun for us
Fly-boys. I come by these rumors at various meetings at Honda sometimes as
sort of a "keep an eye on the competition" informational gathering orders,
FYI's , and just general discussions amoungst peers.
NO...we at Honda does not consider 2SI a threat to our market share of
course but we are always looking at companies trying to blaze down the path
of inovation in the markets, be it with technology or market tactics or
distribution methods or what ever...
Anyhow what I heard is at some sort of seminar they will unveil something
for us engine guys to keep an eye on. Rumor has it ( now this is the "not
too sure part") they will show a heavy fuel spark ignited version and a new
fuel injected, computer controlled 3 cyl 2 cycle for the aircraft people
that someone here thinks might be a player in the PWC biz....(This is where
Honda is interested of course, not aircraft). and also 2 cyl 50 hp Liquid
cooled . The 50hp I saw at a month ago at a booth at a show and it impressed
me quite a lot..looks like a real lightweight.
I wonder if anybody on this list is "in the know" about these possible new
offerings and what day and where this "2si" seminar might be at Sun'n' fun.
???
I wasn't planning on going due to Business considerations...but if I was
able to "expense" the trip on the company tab...hmmmmm.....?????
Also....how hard is it to get a checkout in a Kolb during this show...??
My Firefly is coming along well and the time is near for me to get a ride .
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Don Gherardini-
FireFly 098
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
In a message dated 3/22/03 8:07:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, TSO1953@aol.com
writes:
>
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron or Mary" <whyme@vci.net>
> >
> >I don't post any more on this list but I had to respond to this one.
> > Great post Captain Ron.
> >
> >Colonel Ron
> >
> >
>
> This is basic stuff, you put a VW direct drive with a 56" prop an a KR-2
> and
> fly 60 mph its somewhat efficient, fly the same airplane 100mph it becomes
> more efficient, it becomes even more efficient at 130 to 140 mph. Now put
> that engine on a Kolb and you got a dog. Seems obvious to me but what do I
> know.
>
> Tom O.
>
speed kills....George Randolph
Firestar driver
Message 12
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| Subject: | Shoulder Belt / BRS Deployment Question |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Johann G." <johann-g@talnet.is>
Hi James,
My cage has a plate on the left side on the seat steel rod. Would be
located under your left thigh. This plate has two holes drilled big enough
for the mags switches I have on my Firestar. You could bolt an angle
to that plate, which is big enough for the ignition switch. Just an idea.
Another idea was to extend the instrument panel to your reach.
I plan on doing that when I can find the time.
Happy flying.
Johann G.
Iceland.
Firestar II.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Alderson, James
Subject: Kolb-List: Shoulder Belt / BRS Deployment Question
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Alderson, James"
<James_Alderson@jdedwards.com>
In the process of getting into my Firestar II to do some SLOW speed taxi
testing, I opted to do it with the shoulder harness on (obviously). In doing
so, and tightening them up sufficiently, something struck me. I could not
reach the mags key to turn off the engine in the air in order to deploy the
BRS! I started looking at a few of the pictures that people have here and
there on the web, and almost all that I could find had placed the mags
somewhere out of reach for anyone except Stretch Armstrong (am I dating
myself there?). So, in case I don't end up being able to sell my Firestar
II, does anyone have any pictures or suggestions of where to place the mags
that is more suitable for an emergency? Thanks.
James Alderson
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <CaptainRon@theriver.com>
3/23/03 10:39GeoR38@aol.com
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 3/22/03 8:07:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, TSO1953@aol.com
> writes:
>
>>
>>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron or Mary" <whyme@vci.net>
>>>
>>> I don't post any more on this list but I had to respond to this one.
>>> Great post Captain Ron.
>>>
>>> Colonel Ron
>>>
>>>
>>
>> This is basic stuff, you put a VW direct drive with a 56" prop an a KR-2
>> and
>> fly 60 mph its somewhat efficient, fly the same airplane 100mph it becomes
>> more efficient, it becomes even more efficient at 130 to 140 mph. Now put
>> that engine on a Kolb and you got a dog. Seems obvious to me but what do I
>> know.
>>
>> Tom O.
>>
====================================
Kinda slow day here, so I'll provide some ancedotal observations why a
smaller prop should not be any more efficient at higher speed.
In the Day :-) when I used to fly the Super King airs at close to 280 Knots
our props turned at about 1700 RPM's. A cold war TU-??? something or other
that routinely flew iirc at close to 400+ knots had their giant counter
rotating props turn at 1400 RPM's or slower.
For the unconvinced do a search and find out the prop RPM of any of the
large Turbo props (C-130 etc...), and you will find out that the blades turn
rather slowly.
the only thing that happens at a higher speed within subsonic regim is the
effective angle of attack of the blades. The same prop turning faster in
that scenario as far as I can tell will not be any more efficient.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Belt / BRS Deployment Question |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
Jim et al,
I have installed automatic shut down (ASD) switches on all four of the Kolbs I
have built. The installation consists of a single throw, double pole, toggle switch
mounted behind the pull handle. If I ever had to pull the handle the toggle
would be activated by a cord which connects the handle to a hole drilled through
the top of the toggle.
Checking this switch is a part of my preflight because the engine won't start if
it is in the wrong position, which I can assure you is very annoying. It is
important to test the switch and have it protected from accidental activation.
I will take some digital pics and post them if anyone is interested and I will
be sure to bring my film camera pictures with me to Lakeland, Apr 2,3,4 and 5.
Duane the plane, Tallahassee, FL
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Alderson, James
Subject: Kolb-List: Shoulder Belt / BRS Deployment Question
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Alderson, James" <James_Alderson@jdedwards.com>
In the process of getting into my Firestar II to do some SLOW speed taxi
testing, I opted to do it with the shoulder harness on (obviously). In doing
so, and tightening them up sufficiently, something struck me. I could not
reach the mags key to turn off the engine in the air in order to deploy the
BRS! I started looking at a few of the pictures that people have here and
there on the web, and almost all that I could find had placed the mags
somewhere out of reach for anyone except Stretch Armstrong (am I dating
myself there?). So, in case I don't end up being able to sell my Firestar
II, does anyone have any pictures or suggestions of where to place the mags
that is more suitable for an emergency? Thanks.
James Alderson
Message 15
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| Subject: | [ Ed Steuber ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Ed Steuber <esteuber@rochester.rr.com>
Subject: Progress of Modified Ultrastar
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/esteuber@rochester.rr.com.03.23.2003/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures@matronics.com
Message 16
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| Subject: | [ Dave Pelletier ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Dave Pelletier <pelletier@cableone.net>
Subject: Kolb BRS & Brakes
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/pelletier@cableone.net.03.23.2003/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures@matronics.com
Message 17
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| Subject: | [ Possum ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Possum <possums@mindspring.com>
Subject: Blimp
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/possums@mindspring.com.03.23.2003/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
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o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
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2) Your Full Name:
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Message 18
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> For the unconvinced do a search and find out the prop RPM of any of the
> large Turbo props (C-130 etc...), and you will find out that the blades turn
> rather slowly.Ron
Hi Ron/Gang:
I took the liberty to change the subject to
"Props". Hope you all do not mind.
I certainly agree with your statement above. Big
airplanes, even King Airs, big slow turning
props. However, we were thinking more in the
realm of light planes, ultralights, Crickets,
KR2s, Formula 1 racers, etc. The fast planes, of
this family of aircraft, must use small props with
a lot of pitch. The Formula 1 racers turn up a
lot of revs, I would think. I do not know. At
lower airspeeds these props are lousy performers,
because they are designed to fly at much faster
airspeeds. Again, I do not know. That is why I
requested you explain it to us, the Kolb List.
Just trying to benefit from the vast aviation
experience of others.
I remember looking at Pushy Galore, down at
Lakeland one year. She had a tiny three blade
Warp Drive prop which was ground adjustable. I
would think to get the airspeeds out of Pushy that
they got, they must dial in maximum pitch. With a
prop diameter of what looked like less than four
feet, closer to three feet, take off performance
is lousy. However, at her design race speeds, I
imagine that little prop is getting pretty
efficient to turn high rpm power into airspeed.
Again, just guessing. Looking for an expert.
I did as Google search, but did not find the
answers I was looking for. Got too much outside
work to spend on the computer today.
Later gang,
john h
Message 19
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SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT_OE, USER_IN_WHITELIST)
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
Kolbers/Gents
Do any of you know of a source of the belt drives like are used on the Verner's?
Got to scrap this chain drive. It's ok for the test but not practical for a possible
flying application.
thanks
pp....
N4958P
Do not archive
Message 20
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
You might want to look at a Hi-Vo chain. Take a look on my website, under
"Building Vamoose," "Engine & Redrive." It's pressure oiled from the
engine, and drains into the sump. Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: redrive
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
>
> Kolbers/Gents
>
> Do any of you know of a source of the belt drives like are used on the
Verner's?
>
> Got to scrap this chain drive. It's ok for the test but not practical for
a possible flying application.
>
> thanks
>
> pp....
> N4958P
>
> Do not archive
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | [ Paul Petty ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Paul Petty <ppetty@c-gate.net>
Subject: Harley engine project
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/ppetty@c-gate.net.03.23.2003/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures@matronics.com
Message 22
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
Well Ed, ya went and made us all look like slackers... pretty ambitious
stuff and the photography is admirable too. Maybe this lousy northern
weather is good for something after all. Now if you just bolt Paul P's
Harley on there.......... BB do not archive
Message 23
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "CaptainRon" <captainron@theriver.com>
Ok one more time!!!! :-)
The laws of physics are the same across the board! May it be a Firestar or
a P51. Rule -1 props should not exceed mach, rule 2 they have to be large
enough to absorb the HP put into them. Other than that all else equal they
should be adequate for the task.
=========================
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: Props
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
>
> > For the unconvinced do a search and find out the prop RPM of any of
the
> > large Turbo props (C-130 etc...), and you will find out that the blades
turn
> > rather slowly.Ron
>
> Hi Ron/Gang:
>
> I took the liberty to change the subject to
> "Props". Hope you all do not mind.
>
> I certainly agree with your statement above. Big
> airplanes, even King Airs, big slow turning
> props. However, we were thinking more in the
> realm of light planes, ultralights, Crickets,
> KR2s, Formula 1 racers, etc. The fast planes, of
> this family of aircraft, must use small props with
> a lot of pitch. The Formula 1 racers turn up a
> lot of revs, I would think. I do not know. At
> lower airspeeds these props are lousy performers,
> because they are designed to fly at much faster
> airspeeds. Again, I do not know. That is why I
> requested you explain it to us, the Kolb List.
> Just trying to benefit from the vast aviation
> experience of others.
>
> I remember looking at Pushy Galore, down at
> Lakeland one year. She had a tiny three blade
> Warp Drive prop which was ground adjustable. I
> would think to get the airspeeds out of Pushy that
> they got, they must dial in maximum pitch. With a
> prop diameter of what looked like less than four
> feet, closer to three feet, take off performance
> is lousy. However, at her design race speeds, I
> imagine that little prop is getting pretty
> efficient to turn high rpm power into airspeed.
> Again, just guessing. Looking for an expert.
>
> I did as Google search, but did not find the
> answers I was looking for. Got too much outside
> work to spend on the computer today.
>
> Later gang,
>
> john h
>
>
Message 24
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Im certainly no expert here, but doesnt the size and speed of the prop have
alot to do with the size and speed of the column of air you need to move?
and that will be assigned by our performance envelope?
Of course we all want the most thrust in about any application we can get ,
and to use all the hp available..
So if we want to go fast...we need a faster moving column of air...and with
the given hp we have available, we will use a prop that will move that much
air that fast.
In other words, ( I think)...if we are only gonna try to accomplish 70
mph....then we will pick a prop that will move as much air as the hp will
allow at 70 mph......and if we wanna go 200 mph, on a similar bird with
similar hp, then we will need to spin the prop much faster,to get that
column of air moving faster, and as we have not installed a larger
engine...the prop will need to be smaller so the hp available will spin it
that fast at what ever pitch will accomplish the desired speed.
By the same reasoning, when our performance envelope is slower...then with
what ever Hp we have...we can move MORE air with a larger prop, but we move
it slower. This works better for us low an slow fellas, because our birds
wont stand the high speed anyway, we just like to get up quicker, climb
quicker at a slower speed, and so on.
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Don Gherardini-
FireFly 098
Message 25
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
In a message dated 3/23/03 9:57:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
donghe@one-eleven.net writes:
> Im certainly no expert here, but doesnt the size and speed of the prop have
> alot to do with the size and speed of the column of air you need to move?
> and that will be assigned by our performance envelope?
>
> Of course we all want the most thrust in about any application we can get ,
> and to use all the hp available..
> So if we want to go fast...we need a faster moving column of air...and with
> the given hp we have available, we will use a prop that will move that much
> air that fast.
> In other words, ( I think)...if we are only gonna try to accomplish 70
> mph....then we will pick a prop that will move as much air as the hp will
> allow at 70 mph......and if we wanna go 200 mph, on a similar bird with
> similar hp, then we will need to spin the prop much faster,to get that
> column of air moving faster, and as we have not installed a larger
> engine...the prop will need to be smaller so the hp available will spin it
> that fast at what ever pitch will accomplish the desired speed.
> By the same reasoning, when our performance envelope is slower...then with
> what ever Hp we have...we can move MORE air with a larger prop, but we move
> it slower. This works better for us low an slow fellas, because our birds
> wont stand the high speed anyway, we just like to get up quicker, climb
> quicker at a slower speed, and so on.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
> Don Gherardini-
> FireFly 098
>
Hey Don.....you sound like an expert to me, buddy. Dunno as I've ever heard
it put so well....thanks for making a complicated facet of flying simple. Now
all you have to do is explain why a prop put on backwards ...... still makes
the plane fly.... The guy who taught me about ultralights didn't even know
this one....as a matter of fact ...he actually did it one time by accident
and walked around with his eyes crossed for a week.....n...he's been around
flying all his life. He couldn't understand how his rpms came up, but he just
barely got over the trees.
Now I suppose there is truly a problem of efficiency. Not exactly puttin the
pedal to the metal, but puttin the wood to the air.....
George Randolph
firestar driver in Akron, O
Message 26
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| Subject: | Instruments for sale |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" <cen33475@CenturyTel.net>
I will take the virtcle card compass, the elt and if I can get it separately
the hotbox. Let me know on the hot box and how I can get the other two paid
for
Topher
Message 27
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| Subject: | Sun n Fun questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "dama" <dama@mindspring.com>
From what I understand, we "ultralights" can enter the Lakeland Class "D" from
the south and not talk to anybody. Is this correct? Also, If I can't make it down
there in one day, does anyone know a good place in FL to camp with the plane.
See you there,
Kip
http://www.springeraviation.net/
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Sun n Fun questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> >From what I understand, we "ultralights" can enter the Lakeland Class "D" from
the south and not talk to anybody. Is this correct?
> Kip
Kip/Gang:
Correct on the above. Remember to stay below 500
feet south of the airstrip. You will be able to
see the 1,500' grass strip at Paradise City a few
miles out. Fly direct to it, do a quick fly by to
see which way to land, then land. Do not worry if
there is a red flag flying. You can land on a red
flag, but not take off. If you arrive after S&F
begins, be very careful and plan your arrival
prior to closing of field for airshow or after it
reopens. Usually, that is about 1300 EST to about
1700 or 1800 EST. After you land and tie down at
the NE corner of the UL airstrip, go to the UL HQ
tent in the NW corner of the UL area and
register. Also check out the Kolb display, which
is usually show center behind (north of) the tower
if you need anything.
See ya there.
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Sun n Fun questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> Remember to stay below 500
> feet south of the airstrip.
Kip/Gang:
I didn't do a good job on the above.
Stay below 500 feet AGL, from 5 miles out and
south of the field. GA traffic to the main
Lakeland runway is at 500 feet and above. To the
east of the UL strip is the rotary wing airspace,
so stay south of the UL airstrip.
john h
Message 30
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "CaptainRon" <captainron@theriver.com>
Yes the size of a prop has a lot to do with the thrust produced. (Within
reason. A one inch prop is not going to absorb 100 hp at any angle of
pitch). But it can be done with high pitch slow turn, and low pitch high
turn. The objective of a prop is to screw itself through the air.
since we are talking about screws :-) think about a fine pitch screw and a
coarse pitch screw. The fine pitch screw can rotate like a son of a gun and
go slow, a coarse pitch screw can make one turn and go further.
In other words a higher pitch prop turning slow can pull the airplane
further than a fine pitch prop turning faster.
Conversly a small prop turning very fast subsonic with a high pitch below
its stall speed can produce about the same amount of thrust. As long as
the hp/work is being transferred into the oncoming wind you will get the
same result. One hp will do one Hp worth of work in either form. Can turn
very fast or slow. As long as the energy gets converted to thrust it should
make no difference. One hp can only do one hp of work. It comes down to
which prop can better transfer 100 hp worth of work to the ambiant air.
Anyway thats how I see it.
=========================
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Props
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
>
> Im certainly no expert here, but doesnt the size and speed of the prop
have
> alot to do with the size and speed of the column of air you need to move?
> and that will be assigned by our performance envelope?
>
> Of course we all want the most thrust in about any application we can get
,
> and to use all the hp available..
> So if we want to go fast...we need a faster moving column of air...and
with
> the given hp we have available, we will use a prop that will move that
much
> air that fast.
> In other words, ( I think)...if we are only gonna try to accomplish 70
> mph....then we will pick a prop that will move as much air as the hp will
> allow at 70 mph......and if we wanna go 200 mph, on a similar bird with
> similar hp, then we will need to spin the prop much faster,to get that
> column of air moving faster, and as we have not installed a larger
> engine...the prop will need to be smaller so the hp available will spin it
> that fast at what ever pitch will accomplish the desired speed.
> By the same reasoning, when our performance envelope is slower...then with
> what ever Hp we have...we can move MORE air with a larger prop, but we
move
> it slower. This works better for us low an slow fellas, because our birds
> wont stand the high speed anyway, we just like to get up quicker, climb
> quicker at a slower speed, and so on.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
> Don Gherardini-
> FireFly 098
>
>
Message 31
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" <cen33475@CenturyTel.net>
There isn't an aerodynamic advantage to spinning small props fast for fast
aircraft. the fastest production piston aircraft in the world is the p-51
mustang. It has a Four-blade constant-speed propeller that is an enormous
11' and 1" in diameter. Blades are set at 23 degree-angle low pitch and 58
degree angle high pitch, which you see is not a rediculous range. This is a
plane that can go 487mph at 25,000 feet. Cruise speeds average 350mph.
prop spins around 1500 rpm after a 2 to 1 (i think) reduction drive.
http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/P-38K.html
is an interesting web page about the little known p-38k. this was a
significantimprovement on the p-38 j that consisted amoung other things
changing the reduction ratio from 2 to 2.36 and increasing the prop diameter
and blade chord.
the results: faster, better climb, better performance in all categories.
the basic rule is bigger, slower spinning propeller, gives more thrust.
more thrust is faster, climbs better... just plane better. the only reason
to put a small prop on a plane is to spin a motor faster, to get more power
out of the motor. when you do this the blade tips have to be kept subsonic,
so you make the diameter small. and you get the classic no reduction drive
solution, a plane that goes fast but can hardly climb and needs miles of
runway. add a reduction drive and you get a great climbing plane that is as
fast as you want to crank the pitch in, and minimize drag. Our planes are
slow cause they are very draggy, not cause of the "big" prop diameter.
This is an incorrect rumour, that is based on the no reduction drive engine.
which should really be interpreted as: if you can't have a reduction drive
and have to spin the motor fast to get power then you have to use a small
prop. not the other way around.
Topher
Message 32
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Jeez George...I sure didnt know ya could do that!!!!!
Don
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: TSO1953@aol.com
In a message dated 3/23/03 4:15:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
CaptainRon@theriver.com writes:
> Kinda slow day here, so I'll provide some ancedotal observations why a
> smaller prop should not be any more efficient at higher speed.
> In the Day :-) when I used to fly the Super King airs at close to 280 Knots
> our props turned at about 1700 RPM's. A cold war TU-??? something or other
> that routinely flew iirc at close to 400+ knots had their giant counter
> rotating props turn at 1400 RPM's or slower.
>
>
How you can compare a king airs large props to the kolb props is beyond me,
try turning the King air props at 1000 RPM's you will soon see slower has
less power, every prop has there peak efficant RPM obviously the King air
would be alittle slower than a 80HP direct drive, no one is saying the faster
it turns is unlimited. The original statement was a small prop does better on
a faster plane.Ask ANY Engineer.
Tom O.
Message 34
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" <cen33475@CenturyTel.net>
As long as
the hp/work is being transferred into the oncoming wind you will get the
same result. One hp will do one Hp worth of work in either form. Can turn
very fast or slow. As long as the energy gets converted to thrust it should
make no difference. One hp can only do one hp of work.
Actually one hp can only do .7 hp worth of work, because of losses!!! THe
deal is that the big prop has a greater efficiency at making thrust then the
small one. this is because the the big prop puts a small delta velocity on
lots of air, and the little prop puts a big delta v on a little air. the
big delta v creates lots of turbulance and drag. so your arugments about
pitch which are right, fall apart when it comes to efficiency. the little
prop can absorb power with big pitch or lots of blades, but it is
inefficient at making thrust. Ya wanna go fast for a given power, put a
bigger prop on it and reduced rpm with a redrive and you can still crank in
all the pitch you want. reduce the blade area to allow you to turn the
blade with the hp available and violla, better performance. this really
comes down to the aspect ratio. sailplanes are more efficent then low
aspect ratio wings, and long skinny props are more efficent then short fat
props, even if both have the same wing area and lifting capability. move
lots of air a little not a little air alot.
Trust me ron little props are not better at high speeds, unless you have to
spin it fast. which is the assumption that was made with the standard
engines. add a redrive and you can put a huge prop on and go faster. want
proof, see the p-51 example, 11 foot diameter! and a bit faster then a kolb
Topher
Message 35
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: TSO1953@aol.com
In a message dated 3/24/03 12:24:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
captainron@theriver.com writes:
> very fast or slow. As long as the energy gets converted to thrust it should
> make no difference. One hp can only do one hp of work. It comes down to
> which prop can better transfer 100 hp worth of work to the ambiant air.
> Anyway thats how I see it.
> =========================
>
Not to beat this to death ( well probly should ) but a small prop doesn't
work well on a Kolb at any normal HP.
Tom O.
Message 36
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| Subject: | kalifornia kolb/revmaster motor |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" <cen33475@CenturyTel.net>
How you can compare a king airs large props to the kolb props is beyond me,
try turning the King air props at 1000 RPM's you will soon see slower has
less power, every prop has there peak efficant RPM obviously the King air
would be alittle slower than a 80HP direct drive, no one is saying the
faster
it turns is unlimited. The original statement was a small prop does better
on
a faster plane.Ask ANY Engineer.
Tom O.
I r an engineer... and i say only if you are spinning the engine faster to
make more power. dont apply the rules from that requirement of all the
formula 1 and formula v racers to the generic argument. if you can add a
reduction drive then bigger is better, as long as you can keep the prop tip
subsonic, and can build it strong enough. in the limit as they say in
calculus, if you had an infinately large diameter, single bladed prop that
had almost zero chord it would absorb an infinte amount of power at zero
rpm, have zero drag and create infinite thrust... ok thats just being silly
cause you need infinately strong maerial to make it out of, and the tip
would be eceeding the speed of light.
really just look at the fastest prop plane ever mass produced, you got 2 to
1 redrive and 11' of prop. over 450 mph. end of lesson
Topher
Message 37
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: TSO1953@aol.com
In a message dated 3/24/03 12:25:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,
cen33475@centurytel.net writes:
>
> There isn't an aerodynamic advantage to spinning small props fast for fast
> aircraft. the fastest production piston aircraft in the world is the p-51
> mustang. It has a Four-blade constant-speed propeller that is an enormous
> 11' and 1" in diameter. Blades are set at 23 degree-angle low pitch and 58
>
We all know large props are more efficiant, the original statement was that
SMALL props do better on faster airplanes.
I've said enough Tom O.
Message 38
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: TSO1953@aol.com
In a message dated 3/24/03 1:31:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, TSO1953 writes:
>
> In a message dated 3/24/03 12:25:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> cen33475@centurytel.net writes:
>
>
> >>
>> There isn't an aerodynamic advantage to spinning small props fast for fast
>> aircraft. the fastest production piston aircraft in the world is the p-51
>> mustang. It has a Four-blade constant-speed propeller that is an enormous
>> 11' and 1" in diameter. Blades are set at 23 degree-angle low pitch and 58
>>
>
> We all know large props are more efficiant, the original statement was that
> SMALL props do better on faster airplanes.
> I've said enough Tom O.
What I ment to say was If you have to use a smaller prop,it works best on a
faster plane, but always use the largest prop you can. ( was that better )
Tom O.
Message 39
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
Here's what I think: I have upgraded from a 64 HP 532 to a 65 HP 582, and
from a 66" Ivo 2 blade to a 68" Ivo 2 blade, and I expect to both climb
faster and go faster.
Let you know how it works after I get it back into the air... I think it
takes longer to modify stuff than it does to build it...
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
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