---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/14/03: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:00 AM - Re: Biennial flight reviews (Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious) 2. 07:22 AM - Re: Biennial flight reviews (Richard Pike) 3. 07:57 AM - Re: Vertical Stabilizer - Uncompenstated Yaw (Jack & Louise Hart) 4. 10:29 AM - Re: Vertical Stabilizer - Uncompenstated Yaw (John Hauck) 5. 11:32 AM - Re: Vertical Stabilizer - Uncompenstated Yaw (John Hauck) 6. 01:45 PM - Re: Vertical Stabilizer - Uncompenstated Yaw (Jack & Louise Hart) 7. 02:03 PM - Re: Vertical Stabilizer - Uncompenstated Yaw (John Hauck) 8. 02:40 PM - Weight & Balance (Larry Bourne) 9. 03:23 PM - Re: Weight & Balance (possums) 10. 05:03 PM - Re: Biennial flight reviews (jerb) 11. 05:28 PM - Re: Weight & Balance (Richard Pike) 12. 05:34 PM - Returning to flight status (Fackler, Ken) 13. 05:39 PM - Evo/Air (Paul Petty) 14. 05:47 PM - Re: Returning to flight status (Dave & Eve Pelletier) 15. 06:17 PM - Re: Returning to flight status (FRED2319@aol.com) 16. 06:55 PM - Re: Returning to flight status () 17. 09:05 PM - Re: Evo/Air (Christopher Armstrong) 18. 09:10 PM - Re: Weight & Balance (Christopher Armstrong) 19. 09:41 PM - Test (Ron Aerial) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:14 AM PST US From: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Biennial flight reviews --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" Richard, why DID you retard the throttle at the break? Bob DO NOT ARCHIVE From: Richard Pike Subject: Kolb-List: Biennial flight reviews -- Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike At 02:09 PM 4/13/03 -0500, you wrote: -- Kolb-List message posted by: "Mike Pierzina" How do flight reviews work with the Kolb ? Do I still have to take it in the Cessna ? Gotta Fly... Mike FSII,Color coat soon Depends - on the flight instructor. Since the instructor I fly with was satisfied that I will be doing all my flying in the Kolb (no VOR, no carb heat, etc) then he did not feel the need to use a conventional aircraft. But when I did my power on stalls and retarded the throttle at the break, I had to be able to justify why I did it differently than would be done in a conventional aircraft. You have to know why you do what you do, no matter what you fly. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:56 AM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Biennial flight reviews --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike Where is your thrust line? If you are climbing at cruise power or better, and you get a sharp stall break, the wing has quit working but the prop is still pushing real hard. I want the wing to start flying first, and certainly the high thrust line will help lower the nose (boy, will it ever...Whee!) but I like to lower it myself with out the prop's help. I can only stand just so much adrenaline at one time... (You can tell that I like my flights to be boring) Seriously, I do not pull it back to idle, just back it off to about half, and then power back in as soon as the stall is recovered. It probably would not hurt to leave it at a high power setting, but the power setting does change how the airplane behaves in a power on stall. I suppose if you snatched it back to idle, it might even slow getting the nose over, but I have never tried that, so I don't know. John? Vince? Input? I wonder how a Lake Amphibian behaves in an accelerated power on stall? Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) At 08:59 AM 4/14/03 -0400, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" > > > >Richard, why DID you retard the throttle at the break? >Bob > > >DO NOT ARCHIVE > > >From: Richard Pike >To: kolb-list@matronics.com >Subject: Kolb-List: Biennial flight reviews >Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 15:21:19 -0400 > >-- Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike > >At 02:09 PM 4/13/03 -0500, you wrote: > > -- Kolb-List message posted by: "Mike Pierzina" > > How do flight reviews work with the Kolb ? > Do I still have to take it in the Cessna ? > Gotta Fly... > Mike FSII,Color coat soon > >Depends - on the flight instructor. Since the instructor I fly with was >satisfied that I will be doing all my flying in the Kolb (no VOR, no carb >heat, etc) then he did not feel the need to use a conventional aircraft. >But when I did my power on stalls and retarded the throttle at the break, I >had to be able to justify why I did it differently than would be done in a >conventional aircraft. You have to know why you do what you do, no matter >what you fly. > >Richard Pike >MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:57:02 AM PST US From: Jack & Louise Hart Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vertical Stabilizer - Uncompenstated Yaw --> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart At 02:55 PM 3/24/03 -0600, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck > >Hi Kolbers: ................................> >I believe the leading edge of the vertical >stabilizer failure recently on two seperate >occassions was agrevated by experimentation of >offsetting the leading edge to attempt to overcome >some of the adverse yaw characteristic. That is >the price I have paid for seeing if that mod would >work. It didn't. The trim tab size, >configuration, I have now has neutralized this >adverse yaw characteristic. As a side note, the >MK III doesn't really care if it is in yaw trim or >not. Most of the time on the airframe was flown >with the slip/skid indicator 1/2 ball out of >trim. No significant performance/handling >increase has been noted. Probably should have >said, no performance/handling increase noted, >other than the ball is now centered. :-) > ........................ John, I have been working on getting my FireFly trimmed out in yaw. I wrote earlier that I had no problems when I had the Rotax 447 installed. But after I installed the Victor 1+ the FireFly cruised with one ball diameter out to the right. At first I just thought it was due to the fact that the new propeller rotation was opposite of that for the 447. I really did not want add the weight of a rudder trim tab. I went back and reviewed what I had done and I found that I had lowered the front and raised the rear of the engine mount. Then I remembered that when I was mounting the Victor 1+, I added more washers to raise the front of the engine, for no good reason except it just looked better. Stupid move! But your comment got me to thinking that I did not understand P-Factor very well. So I researched it a little, and asked an old timer to explain it to me in the hangar standing at the FireFly. I thought I understood it, but when I got home I still could not draw a diagram and explain it my self. After another trip to the hangar and taking some measurements with an incline meter on the propeller in the horizontal position, I felt like I understood what the old timer was trying to tell me. I took half the washers out from under the front of the engine mount and flew the FireFly. At cruise the ball went from one ball to a half ball out to the right. One can apply a little right rudder pressure to bring it back in. In the next day or two, I hope to make another adjustment and I believe the ball will be centered at cruise. You may be able to get your plane to stop skidding at cruise by adding or moving a few washers. The advantage of moving the engine in this way is that lets one trim the plane out in yaw and minimizes drag. I added some explanation and a diagram on the bottom of: http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly56.html Jack B. Hart FF004 Jackson, MO Jack & Louise Hart jbhart@ldd.net ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:29:56 AM PST US From: John Hauck Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vertical Stabilizer - Uncompenstated Yaw --> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck Jack & Louise Hart wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart > > At 02:55 PM 3/24/03 -0600, you wrote: > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck > > > >Hi Kolbers: > ................................> > >I believe the leading edge of the vertical > >stabilizer failure recently on two seperate > >occassions was agrevated by experimentation of > >offsetting the leading edge to attempt to overcome > >some of the adverse yaw characteristic. That is > >the price I have paid for seeing if that mod would > >work. It didn't. The trim tab size, > >configuration, I have now has neutralized this > >adverse yaw characteristic. As a side note, the > >MK III doesn't really care if it is in yaw trim or > >not. Most of the time on the airframe was flown > >with the slip/skid indicator 1/2 ball out of > >trim. No significant performance/handling > >increase has been noted. Probably should have > >said, no performance/handling increase noted, > >other than the ball is now centered. :-) > > > ........................ > > John, > > I have been working on getting my FireFly trimmed out in yaw. I wrote earlier that I had no problems when I had the Rotax 447 installed. But after I installed the Victor 1+ the FireFly cruised with one ball diameter out to the right. At first I just thought it was due to the fact that the new propeller rotation was opposite of that for the 447. I really did not want add the weight of a rudder trim tab. > > I went back and reviewed what I had done and I found that I had lowered the front and raised the rear of the engine mount. Then I remembered that when I was mounting the Victor 1+, I added more washers to raise the front of the engine, for no good reason except it just looked better. Stupid move! But your comment got me to thinking that I did not understand P-Factor very well. So I researched it a little, and asked an old timer to explain it to me in the hangar standing at the FireFly. I thought I understood it, but when I got home I still could not draw a diagram and explain it my self. After another trip to the hangar and taking some measurements with an incline meter on the propeller in the horizontal position, I felt like I understood what the old timer was trying to tell me. > > I took half the washers out from under the front of the engine mount and flew the FireFly. At cruise the ball went from one ball to a half ball out to the right. One can apply a little right rudder pressure to bring it back in. In the next day or two, I hope to make another adjustment and I believe the ball will be centered at cruise. You may be able to get your plane to stop skidding at cruise by adding or moving a few washers. The advantage of moving the engine in this way is that lets one trim the plane out in yaw and minimizes drag. > > I added some explanation and a diagram on the bottom of: > > http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly56.html > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Jackson, MO > > Jack & Louise Hart > jbhart@ldd.net > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:32:48 AM PST US From: John Hauck Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vertical Stabilizer - Uncompenstated Yaw --> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck Jack/Gang: Something I learned a long time ago was the engine thrust line changes drastically with power settings and airspeed. It is the nature of the Lord Mount we use on our Kolbs. Depending on what engine we use, left or right rotation, the engine with lift in the rear, depress in the front, and rotate opposite the direction of prop rotation. The two stroke Rotax will load up the left front Lord Mount. The four stroke Rotax will load up the right front Lord Mount. To compenstate for the lift at the rear of the engine and depression at the front, I raise the front of the 912 and 912S powered MK III 5/8 inch. To prevent the front Lord Mounts from being depressed excessively, I place a two inch fender washer under the 5/8" bushing and on top of the Lord Mount. At rest, engine off, the thrust line in in line with the bottom of the wing. At cruise power settings, the front of the engine still depresses a little and brings everything back to the amount of angle of attack to keep the Mk III in level flight with the thrust line parallel to the line of flight. Pardon the previous blank I shot in response to Jack Hart's email. Hit the send instead of the delete button. :-) john h ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:45:08 PM PST US From: Jack & Louise Hart Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vertical Stabilizer - Uncompenstated Yaw --> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart I added a little more explanation to the bottom of: http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly56.html I made a one washer thickness change and raised the back of the engine. I flew it in the pattern and I found at cruise on the downwind leg that the ball position had changed from one-half ball out to one-fourth ball out. For those of you who are flying Kolbs with 447's, this is an easy thing to do that will get your aircraft flying in a much more efficient configuration at cruise with out having to add additional weight by way of a rudder trim tab. Jack B. Hart FF004 Jackson, MO Jack & Louise Hart jbhart@ldd.net ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:03:08 PM PST US From: John Hauck Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vertical Stabilizer - Uncompenstated Yaw --> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck > I made a one washer thickness change and raised the back of the engine. I flew it in the pattern and I found at cruise on the downwind leg that the ball position had changed from one-half ball out to one-fourth ball out. > Jack & Louise Hart Jack/Gang: Need some particular info on your aircraft and test: 1) Prop rotation direction? 2) Direction of adverse yaw? 3) What is your cruise speed? 4) How is this affecting your airspeed/engine rpm? If I remember correctly, you have increased incidence of wing and horizontal stabilizer. If so, we can not compare what is happening to your Fire Fly with a standard configured one? john h ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:40:47 PM PST US From: "Larry Bourne" Subject: Kolb-List: Weight & Balance --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" Today we did the weight & balance on Vamoose, and have come up with a serious question/problem. We put the wheels on scales, then lifted the tail till a level held on the wing trailing edge tube was 7 1/2" inches below the leading edge tube, as per the instructions, to give a 9 deg. angle of attack. Using form no. AC 43.13-1B, page 10-6, and the airplane empty, we came up with a c.g. of 29%. Beautiful...............according to the plans, it should be between 25% & 35%.............right ?? Hokay...............THEN we plugged the numbers into the Kolb form on the blueprints, and came up with an empty c.g. of 44%. I sat in the plane, we figured where my navel sat, and my weight, and came up with 39.5%. This is not good. Why such a discrepancy between the 2 ?? Which one should I go by, or, which one is the DAR going to want to see ?? Which one is safe to fly by ?? I'm well aware of the dangers of flying with aft c.g. (or forward c.g., for that matter) I designed the engine mount to allow moving the engine an inch either way, but it's a heck of a job, and I'd just as soon leave it be. What are you guys' thoughts on this ??? This just cost me another week, I think. Monument Valley is looking less likely. Lar. Larry Bourne Palm Springs, CA Kolb Mk III - Vamoose www.gogittum.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:23:06 PM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Weight & Balance --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums My hybrid whatumacallit also showed a very aft CG - just over the 37%. It's got kolb ribs (16 of them) , like yours - and I was also afraid of how it was going to fly. Got almost no dihedral in the wings, so I could picture the engine out/tail slide into an inverted flat/spin/where's my red handle thing. However, I was pleasantly surprised - it flys great. Can't get it to do anything weird - engine on or off - and I've tried! I've put one of those $200 three pound tail wheels on since then and still no problem. If it makes you feel better, put some weight in the nose or passenger seat when you take it up. I'll bet you won't need it. http://www.mindspring.com/~possums/ At 02:40 PM 4/14/2003 -0700, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" > >Today we did the weight & balance on Vamoose, and have come up with a >serious question/problem. We put the wheels on scales, then lifted the >tail till a level held on the wing trailing edge tube was 7 1/2" inches >below the leading edge tube, as per the instructions, to give a 9 deg. >angle of attack. Using form no. AC 43.13-1B, page 10-6, and the airplane >empty, we came up with a c.g. of 29%. Beautiful...............according >to the plans, it should be between 25% & 35%.............right >?? Hokay...............THEN we plugged the numbers into the Kolb form on >the blueprints, and came up with an empty c.g. of 44%. I sat in the >plane, we figured where my navel sat, and my weight, and came up with >39.5%. This is not good. Why such a discrepancy between the 2 ?? Which >one should I go by, or, which one is the DAR going to want to see >?? Which one is safe to fly by ?? I'm well aware of the dangers of >flying with aft c.g. (or forward c.g., for that matter) I designed the! > engine mount to allow moving the engine an inch either way, but it's a > heck of a job, and I'd just as soon leave it be. What are you > guys' thoughts on this ??? This just cost me another week, I > think. Monument Valley is looking less likely. Lar. > >Larry Bourne ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:33 PM PST US From: jerb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Biennial flight reviews --> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb I'm all ears or eyes balls that is. Why do you do what you do Richard? jerb do not archive At 03:21 PM 4/13/03 -0400, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike > >At 02:09 PM 4/13/03 -0500, you wrote: > > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Mike Pierzina" > > > > How do flight reviews work with the Kolb ? > > Do I still have to take it in the Cessna ? > > Gotta Fly... > > Mike FSII,Color coat soon > >Depends - on the flight instructor. Since the instructor I fly with was >satisfied that I will be doing all my flying in the Kolb (no VOR, no carb >heat, etc) then he did not feel the need to use a conventional aircraft. >But when I did my power on stalls and retarded the throttle at the break, I >had to be able to justify why I did it differently than would be done in a >conventional aircraft. You have to know why you do what you do, no matter >what you fly. > >Richard Pike >MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:23 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Weight & Balance --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike Something doesn't sound right. Why not post the #s that you are showing on your forms and let the listers see how it compares with theirs? Some times we fail to see the forests for the trees. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Do Not Archive At 02:40 PM 4/14/03 -0700, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" > >Today we did the weight & balance on Vamoose, and have come up with a >serious question/problem. We put the wheels on scales, then lifted the >tail till a level held on the wing trailing edge tube was 7 1/2" inches >below the leading edge tube, as per the instructions, to give a 9 deg. >angle of attack. Using form no. AC 43.13-1B, page 10-6, and the airplane >empty, we came up with a c.g. of 29%. Beautiful...............according >to the plans, it should be between 25% & 35%.............right >?? Hokay...............THEN we plugged the numbers into the Kolb form on >the blueprints, and came up with an empty c.g. of 44%. I sat in the >plane, we figured where my navel sat, and my weight, and came up with >39.5%. This is not good. Why such a discrepancy between the 2 ?? Which >one should I go by, or, which one is the DAR going to want to see >?? Which one is safe to fly by ?? I'm well aware of the dangers of >flying with aft c.g. (or forward c.g., for that matter) I designed the! > engine mount to allow moving the engine an inch either way, but it's a > heck of a job, and I'd just as soon leave it be. What are you > guys' thoughts on this ??? This just cost me another week, I > think. Monument Valley is looking less likely. Lar. > >Larry Bourne >Palm Springs, CA >Kolb Mk III - Vamoose >www.gogittum.com > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:10 PM PST US From: "Fackler, Ken" Subject: Kolb-List: Returning to flight status --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Fackler, Ken" Well, friends, yesterday was the Big Day for me. I flew for the first time since effectively losing the use of my right eye nearly two months back. I first went for a couple of hours with a friend in a Cessna 152. When that went well, I then took my trusty old Kolb outta the hangar, blew off the dust, and got in a couple of nice hour-long flights in the afternoon. Man, it do feel good to be back in the sky! Thank you, more than I can express, to all the many messages of encouragement and support and advice that I received from people here on the List. You all were great! -Ken Fackler Mark II / 503 Rochester MI DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:48 PM PST US From: "Paul Petty" Subject: Kolb-List: Evo/Air --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" Kolbers, Ran the engine yesterday for about an hour @4000 RPM. Nothing broke except the lightweight tabs on the oil tank. Reved it up past 4500 RPM a few times trying to break something, only thing that tried to break is the whole set up it'self! It tries to nose over when you pass 4300RPM. Also I noticed that it starts to load the engine at that RPM. Being a novice at engines vs props, How much more will a 72" warp drive load this engine than the 60" wood prop that John Cooley has provided? Do any of you think it will load the engine down to where I can full power it and control RPM by pitch? Here is another problem. Vibration!!!~~~~~~ There are points in the power up that she is smooth as glass and others where it feels like a 90lb jack hammer! Wondering if all engines act this way when mounted on a stationary object and chained to a dozer? Just having fun here waiting to sell these other bikes so I can get busy building a Kolb. Also I picked up a VW engine that I want to explore. pp.... N4958P Do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:04 PM PST US From: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Returning to flight status --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" AWWWWWRIGHTTTTTT!!!! See, told ya you could do it. Congratulations. AzDave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fackler, Ken" Subject: Kolb-List: Returning to flight status > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Fackler, Ken" > > Well, friends, yesterday was the Big Day for me. I flew for the first time > since effectively losing the use of my right eye nearly two months back. I > first went for a couple of hours with a friend in a Cessna 152. When that > went well, I then took my trusty old Kolb outta the hangar, blew off the > dust, and got in a couple of nice hour-long flights in the afternoon. > > Man, it do feel good to be back in the sky! > > Thank you, more than I can express, to all the many messages of > encouragement and support and advice that I received from people here on the > List. You all were great! > > -Ken Fackler > Mark II / 503 > Rochester MI > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:32 PM PST US From: FRED2319@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Returning to flight status --> Kolb-List message posted by: FRED2319@aol.com Well, done and congrats. Fred ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:44 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Returning to flight status --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ken, That is GREAT news! Good to hear. Denny Rowe do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Fackler, Ken Subject: Kolb-List: Returning to flight status > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Fackler, Ken" > > Well, friends, yesterday was the Big Day for me. I flew for the first time > since effectively losing the use of my right eye nearly two months back. I > first went for a couple of hours with a friend in a Cessna 152. When that > went well, I then took my trusty old Kolb outta the hangar, blew off the > dust, and got in a couple of nice hour-long flights in the afternoon. > > Man, it do feel good to be back in the sky! > > Thank you, more than I can express, to all the many messages of > encouragement and support and advice that I received from people here on the > List. You all were great! > > -Ken Fackler > Mark II / 503 > Rochester MI > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:08 PM PST US From: "Christopher Armstrong" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Evo/Air --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" There are points in the power up that she is smooth as glass and others where it feels like a 90lb jack hammer! Wondering if all engines act this way when mounted on a stationary object and chained to a dozer? Just having fun here waiting to sell these other bikes so I can get busy building a Kolb. Also I picked up a VW engine that I want to explore. pp.... N4958P more then likely you are hitting points of torsional resonance. If you stay at those locations major damage will occur. Not maybe. not eventually. but in a mater of minutes or seconds. Resonance works by adding little inputs of energy that are timed correctly to create a large amount of energy. like a kid on a swing, a little kick timed right will add up to a very big swing. In torsional resonance the same thing is happening, but in a rotation around part of the system, probably the notoriosly weak HD crankshaft, but also just as possibly in the prop shaft you have put together, or even in the links of the chain. Make a note of these rpm's and avoid them like the plague. they will ruin your project nearly instantly. also, make sure your not anywhere in the plane of rotation of the moving parts of this system when you are testing it. When you break something it is going to come off with the energy of a balistic projectile and it will kill you. I have seen video of a section of flywheel go through concrete block walls, yah two of them!. If the chain losses a link you dont want to be anywhere near that either. basically be careful, lots of energy involved here, it is easy to forget how much. if you have 100 hp think in terms of having 100 horses running over you, all in a thousandth of a second. It would probably hurt. my wife has simple rules for me and my kids. no bleeding, no broken bones, no missing teeth, and have fun! Topher ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:28 PM PST US From: "Christopher Armstrong" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Weight & Balance --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" Lar. try throwing out these charts your using and just do the math yourself. Just sum the 3 moments (3 weights times 3 distances) about any fixed reference point and devide by the total weight and there is the distance from your reference point to the cg. If you are out of the envelope one thing to remember is although moving the 200 pound engine 1 inch gives you 200 inch pounds, moving 10 pounds 20 inches does the same thing, and you can usually find 10 pounds to move if you look around a bit. might be easier. topher ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:29 PM PST US From: Ron Aerial Subject: Kolb-List: Test --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ron Aerial Test do not archive http://search.yahoo.com