Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:46 AM - M.V. (Larry Bourne)
2. 04:43 AM - Re: aerothane and polytone ()
3. 05:15 AM - Re: aerothane and polytone (John Hauck)
4. 06:37 AM - Re: aerothane and polytone (SGreenpg@aol.com)
5. 06:56 AM - Re: aerothane and polytone (John Hauck)
6. 08:15 AM - Re: aerothane and polytone (Don Gherardini)
7. 09:02 AM - Re: aerothane and polytone (John Hauck)
8. 10:04 AM - Auto paint and small repairs (M. Domenic Perez)
9. 10:13 AM - Re: aerothane and polytone (John Hauck)
10. 10:18 AM - Re: Auto paint and small repairs (John Hauck)
11. 10:33 AM - John Hauk: McCreary 8.00 X 6 tires (NBD)
12. 10:37 AM - Re: aerothane and polytone (Larry Bourne)
13. 10:37 AM - Re: aerothane and polytone (Don Gherardini)
14. 10:49 AM - Re: John Hauk: McCreary 8.00 X 6 tires (John Hauck)
15. 11:27 AM - Re: Aerothane and Polytone (kuffel)
16. 12:22 PM - Re: aerothane and polytone ()
17. 12:28 PM - Re: aileron and flap setup (woody)
18. 12:53 PM - Re: aileron and flap setup (John Hauck)
19. 01:26 PM - Re: McCreary 8.00 X 6 tires (NBD)
20. 01:32 PM - MK III Builders Log & Operations Manual (NBD)
21. 01:33 PM - Re: Victor 1+ - First Short Cross Country (Jack & Louise Hart)
22. 02:24 PM - Re: aileron and flap setup (woody)
23. 03:11 PM - Re: aileron and flap setup (John Hauck)
24. 03:46 PM - Re: aileron and flap setup - Paint and Repair (John Hauck)
25. 05:49 PM - Compass rebuild (Timandjan@aol.com)
26. 06:19 PM - ANR Headsets (Chuck Davis - Comcast)
27. 06:21 PM - Firefly Shoulderbelts (Chuck Davis - Comcast)
28. 07:02 PM - Re: Firefly Shoulderbelts (possums)
29. 07:19 PM - Re: Compass rebuild (jerb)
30. 07:33 PM - Re: ANR Headsets (Rick & Martha Neilsen)
31. 07:42 PM - Re: Aerothane and Polytone (DAquaNut@aol.com)
32. 07:46 PM - Re: Firefly Shoulderbelts (Bob N.)
33. 08:04 PM - Re: ANR Headsets (vincenicely)
34. 11:30 PM - Auto paint and small repairs (M. Domenic Perez)
Message 1
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Tonight I got to looking at the calendar, and see that the 17th is the Saturday,
and the Monument Valley fly-in is on the Monday. Somehow, I didn't connect
a 2 day difference there, (old-timer's disease ??) and I'm not going to be able
to leave Saturday. Sunday morning is what it'll hafta be, so I guess it'll
be a straight shot to M.V. Too bad.................I was really looking forward
to stopping in Paulden, and maybe scaring up a BBQ, or something.
Disappointed Lar. Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB
www.gogittum.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: aerothane and polytone |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: <rowedl@highstream.net>
John Hauk wrote.
. The correct product for taping lines is "3M fine line
> polypropolene tape". It is designed for just that
> purpose. I use 1/2" width.
>
> Use the 3m auto painting masking tape to mask with
> and also to stick the masking paper. Nothing
> else.
john h
John and Gang,
Jim Miller told me to never use the vinal based (polypropolene) fine line
tapes when (spraying poly-anything). As all the poly products are vinal
based, they will desolve the tapes and make a terrible mess.
These tapes work fine with Aerothane as that is not a vinal product. This is
why John has never had problems using the tapes on his Aerothane jobs.
With Polytone, the Millers and the Poly manual say to use the good autobody
paper masking tape, I used the green 3M stuff with good results on 59 degree
days.
Denny Rowe
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: aerothane and polytone |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> Jim Miller told me to never use the vinal based (polypropolene) fine line
> tapes when (spraying poly-anything). As all the poly products are vinal
> based, they will desolve the tapes and make a terrible mess.
> These tapes work fine with Aerothane as that is not a vinal product. This is
> why John has never had problems using the tapes on his Aerothane jobs.
> With Polytone, the Millers and the Poly manual say to use the good autobody
> paper masking tape, I used the green 3M stuff with good results on 59 degree
> days.
>
> Denny Rowe
Denny/Gang:
I stand corrected then.
The one time I used polytone with tape lines was
my Ultrastar. Then I clear coated it with clear
Aerothane. I used paper masking tape, but not
green or what ever. Ordinary auto type 3M masking
tape.
The Firestar and MK III were all shot with white
Polytone as a base coat and then finished up with
Aerothane.
I think I will do an experiment with some fine
line tape and see what happens.
john h
BTW: After two more cups of coffee, it is time to
go down to the "mole hole" and mask for final
red. Got my fingers crossed that I have enough
red. I bought a quart last August when I did the
lower vertical stabilizer and there's not much
left.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: aerothane and polytone |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: SGreenpg@aol.com
In a message dated 5/4/03 8:16:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jhauck@elmore.rr.com writes:
> Jim Miller told me to never use the vinal based (polypropolene) fine line
> >tapes when (spraying poly-anything). As all the poly products are vinal
> >based, they will desolve the tapes and make a terrible mess.
>
Denny,
I'm not sure what material 3M fine line tape is made from but I used several
hundred feet taping my plane and sprayed Polytone paint with no problems. Is
it possible that Jim was thinking of a tape other than the 3M fine line
tape??
Steven
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: aerothane and polytone |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> I'm not sure what material 3M fine line tape is made from but I used several
> hundred feet taping my plane and sprayed Polytone paint with no problems. Is
> it possible that Jim was thinking of a tape other than the 3M fine line
> tape??
>
> Steven
Steven/Gang:
Good morning. Where you been hiding?
I dug out the manual, Polyfiber, Procedure Manual
No. 1, Revision No. 19, July 1999. There may be
newer versions, but this is the one Jim and Dondi
sent me two years ago when it came time to do Miss
P'fer's left wing, aileron, and flap.
To see what it says, go to:
http://home.sw.rr.com/jhauck/Airplane%20Stuff/Polytone.JPG
http://home.sw.rr.com/jhauck/Airplane%20Stuff/Aerothane.JPG
The manual doesn't say not use 3M Polypropolene
Fine Line Tape with Polytone. However, it
recommends using it with Aerothane.
Looks like Steven Green had no problem with
polypropolene and Polytone. I have closely
inspected his airplane and his tape lines. They
are sharp, crisp, and I don't remember seeing any
problems with Polytone creeping under tape edges.
john h
PS: I may have to retract my "I stand corrected"
msg. :-)
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: aerothane and polytone |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Thanks for all the good advice men, as for vinyl tape, I didnt use it simply
because i am aware that polytone is vinyl based, and the thinners and such
dissolve vinyl. I have lots of vinyl pinstriping tape that I have used many
times in the past for masking intricate details on motorcycle tamks and
autos....I have been tempted to try it, but I have resisted simply because
of the expierience I had on some of those disposable vinyl gloves when
covering this bird.....MEK...65-75..and ploytak all dissolved holes in those
gloves right quick...so that day I learned the difference between vinyl and
latex gloves!! BTW...."Play-Tex" brand name gloves work ok too!
Upon staring at this mess now since yesterday....I got out the magnifing
glass and looked at the fabric. The weave is easily seen. so I can
understand how thinned paint can bleed under the tape edges.
Now...Do I not have enough white paint or poly-brush on this fabric?...do I
need to have enough of the weave filled so I cannot see it?..enough so there
is a smooth , slick finish before the tape can seal the edge line?
these are the questions that are running thru my feeble, frustrated mind
now.
Don G
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: aerothane and polytone |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Don/Gang:
Try not to give advice, but I will tell you what I
think.
> Thanks for all the good advice men, as for vinyl tape, I didnt use it simply
> because i am aware that polytone is vinyl based, and the thinners and such
> dissolve vinyl.
Now........I am not a chemist, but I will venture
to guess that vinyl is not polypropolene. 3M Fine
Line Polypropolene Tape is made of prolypropolene,
not vinyl.
Did a couple experiments, while I am contemplating
masking my sunburst with Fine Line Polypropolene
Tape..........
Put a piece of the above in a container with
Polyfiber Reducer, 8500. It dissolved the cement
on the tape, but not the tape.
Same experiment with Aerothane Reducer. It also
dissolved the cement, but not the tape.
My conclusion: Polytone and Aerothane will
dissolve the cement on polypropolene tape, but not
the tape.
> Now...Do I not have enough white paint or poly-brush on this fabric?...do I
> need to have enough of the weave filled so I cannot see it?..enough so there
> is a smooth , slick finish before the tape can seal the edge line?
> these are the questions that are running thru my feeble, frustrated mind
> now.
Are you using Polyspray. I believe Polybrush
seals the weave and Polyspray fills the weave (if
that's what one wants to do), provides a sanding
base and UV protection.
My fabric work shows the weave of the fabric. EAA
Judges like that over trying to "slobber" the dope
on until it covers all the defects, tape edges,
and the weave.
If I had qualms about any of this finishing
process, I would make a test piece, finish it just
like your airplane, and experiment on it rather
than take a chance on having to redo your work.
However, shooting a couple more coats to correct a
problem can be done with Polytone and Aerothane.
I have screwed up work, let it dry about a week,
sanded the buggers out of it, and repainted. The
longer Polytone and Aerothane dry the better they
sand.
BTW: I do not wet sand fabric. I use 400 wet dry
paper and compressed air to blow the sanding
residue off the work. Usually knock off the
buggers only, but if I have to repaint work that
is over 7 days old I will hit it lightly with 400
and no water.
john h
Message 8
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| Subject: | Auto paint and small repairs |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "M. Domenic Perez" <perezmdomenic@plateautel.net>
Kolbers,
As long as we are on this paint subject, perhaps someone has experience
with fabric patching and repainting when the plane was painted with auto
paint. An overly enthusiastic friend helped me ding an aileron on my
Firestar II loading it into the trailer (pre-winch time period). It's
flyable as it is, but of course, someday it must be returned to perfection
(or near perfection). I'm not the builder/painter, but the guy who did, did
a gorgeous job on it. The ding is so minor, I hate to have to re-fabric and
repaint after a proper repair (on the trailing edge tube). Correct me if I'm
wrong, but I assume the problem with auto paint on airplane fabric is the
Catch-22 situation that a solvent that will remove it will also harm or
destroy the underlying fabric, so that it is unsound to reglue a patch to
it. Dondi Miller told me the only thing to do was to use sandpaper to get
the paint off the fabric, but I foresee great difficulty getting all the
paint off without hurting the fabric with the sanding. My paint job is, by
coincidence or plagiarism, almost like Hauck's - red and yellow sunburst.
The rays continue from the wing onto the aileron adding to the difficulty of
getting them aligned right if I have to recover the whole aileron, which may
be the only answer. Some gold metalflake was even added to the red and
figuring out how much to add to the paint will no doubt be another problem.
Any suggestions are appreciated.
M. Domenic Perez
Vaughn, New Mexico
FS II, 503
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: aerothane and polytone |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> BTW: I do not wet sand fabric. I use 400 wet dry
> paper and compressed air to blow the sanding
> residue off the work. No water.
AND A TAC RAG JUST PRIOR TO SHOOTING DOPE OR
PAINT!
JOHN H
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Auto paint and small repairs |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> Any suggestions are appreciated.
>
> M. Domenic Perez
M. Domenic/Gang:
If the damage is "strictly cosmetic, I'd figure
out if I could put a sticky decal on it. My MK
III is covered up, especially the horizontal
stabilizers and elevators with decals. Not there
to advertise, but cover holes in fabric, rather
than the alternative of going through the long
tedious process of repairing aerothane.
john h
Message 11
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| Subject: | John Hauk: McCreary 8.00 X 6 tires |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "NBD" <mk3@bailinair.com>
John,
I bought a set of McCreary AirTrac 8.00 X 6 tire with tubes as you advised
last Spring, wondering if you can tell me how much air pressure you run in
them these days on your MK III.
Thank you.
Noel
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: aerothane and polytone |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Sanding the "little buggers" off, huh ?? I haven't had a chance to try this
yet, but will tomorrow......................several years ago Possum sent me
some teflon fabric, that, as I recall, was to help iron out those little
bumps and runs. I found a couple of places on my ailerons where the A&P got
some pretty good runs, and when I pointed them out, he said he'd sand, and
re-paint. There's LOTS of paint on Vamoose now, prob'ly 100 lbs worth,
:-( and I didn't want any more. That teflon fabric came to mind, and I
asked him to wait, cause I wanted to try something. As I remember, I'm
supposed to set the iron to a fairly low temperature, put the teflon over
the run, and iron thru it, to smooth out the run, and avoid having the iron
stick to the paint. Don G......................I'm not an
expert by any stretch, and you've prob'ly thought of this, but from reading
about your paint bleeding problem....................since it's now dry,
would it be possible to sand the bled edge smooth, mask the red with the
proper tape, and re-shoot a light touch-up of the white to cover the
bled-thru red edges ???
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: aerothane and polytone
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> Don/Gang:
>
> Try not to give advice, but I will tell you what I
> think.
>
> > Thanks for all the good advice men, as for vinyl tape, I didnt use it
simply
> > because i am aware that polytone is vinyl based, and the thinners and
such
> > dissolve vinyl.
>
> Now........I am not a chemist, but I will venture
> to guess that vinyl is not polypropolene. 3M Fine
> Line Polypropolene Tape is made of prolypropolene,
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: aerothane and polytone |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Ill take you advice John., and/ or your ideas..and thank ya fer being so
liberal with it pard!....
Polypropolene and vinyl..now this is good stuff, you have caused me to go
into my box of tape and discover I have BOTH....and I didnt even knowm it.
some 3-m, some NAPA brand..and some others too...all thios pinstriping tape
is not vinyl, as I thought before john pointed this out...thanks John!
yes..I applied 2 coats of Poly-spray silver before 2 coats of white. some
times 3 coats where it was a little thin.
I am gonna figger this out...as I now have 4 test pieces....2 horizontals
and 2 elevators that are screwed up ...so I am cleaning it off preparing for
another go....
Don
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: John Hauk: McCreary 8.00 X 6 tires |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> I bought a set of McCreary AirTrac 8.00 X 6 tire with tubes as you advised
> last Spring, wondering if you can tell me how much air pressure you run in
> them these days on your MK III.
> Noel
Hi Noel/Gang:
I did what? Just sent a post to the List that
said I tried not to give advise. :-)
Good choice though.
I fly off a grass strip most of the time. If I
land at the local airport, I usually pick the
grass between the taxiway and the runway. For off
field, sod ops I like 6 psi.
If I am going to be flying predominately off
pavement, then I go with 8 psi.
These will give you something to start with. You
can experiment and find the pressure that suits
your situation best.
Initially I tried everything from 20 psi down to
what I use now.
john h
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Aerothane and Polytone |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: kuffel <kuffel@cyberport.net>
Don G.,
Besides all the good advice there is one point which hasn't been
mentioned yet.
<<every edge bled across under the tape .. I rubbed all the edges with
my fingers>>
3M sells a special squeegee but any stiff block of plastic which tapers
to a rounded point will do. After taping go over every edge with the
point of the squeegee with moderately hard pressure. A friend with a
biplane had exactly the same problem even though he used the most
expensive 3M tape others have mentioned. With fabric the extra step to
thoroughly seal the edge of the tape is needed.
Tom Kuffel
Whitefish, MT
Building Original FireStar
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: aerothane and polytone |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: <rowedl@highstream.net>
Its all GOOD,
Now we all know what to look for in tape, avoid vinyl at all cost.
Denny
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Gherardini <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: aerothane and polytone
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
>
> Ill take you advice John., and/ or your ideas..and thank ya fer being so
> liberal with it pard!....
>
> Polypropolene and vinyl..now this is good stuff, you have caused me to go
> into my box of tape and discover I have BOTH....and I didnt even knowm it.
> some 3-m, some NAPA brand..and some others too...all thios pinstriping
tape
> is not vinyl, as I thought before john pointed this out...thanks John!
>
> yes..I applied 2 coats of Poly-spray silver before 2 coats of white. some
> times 3 coats where it was a little thin.
>
> I am gonna figger this out...as I now have 4 test pieces....2 horizontals
> and 2 elevators that are screwed up ...so I am cleaning it off preparing
for
> another go....
>
> Don
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: aileron and flap setup |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: woody <duesouth@govital.net>
The Kolb airfoil is a bit odd. The max thickness is at about 25% rather
than the more customoary 33% of chord. The aileron is also wider than would
be expected if you study the airfoil. If the top rear surface and the
bottom surface are straight lines then where they meet would give you a
maximum aileron chord of 6 inches. I set my ailerons up in a straight line
with the top surface then drop it an exta 1/2 inch to compensate for flight
loads.
Kolbs turn left. It is the nature of the beast.
At 04:50 PM 4/30/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Joe Allman" <fisherallman@earthlink.net>
>
>
>Kolbers,
>
>I'm still trying to get the roll out of this Mark III Extra.
>
>I could use some advice regarding the aileron and flapperon setup.
>
>Currently the ailerons are slightly drooped in the neutral position. Is
>this normal or should the profile be flat from the leading edge of the wing
>to the trailing edge of the aileron?
>
>Also, after a second look I found the SS to be relatively even across the
>horz. stab. Must of been an optical confusion of some sort. Loose nut on
>the level.
>
>As always, thanks in advance,
>
>Joe
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: aileron and flap setup |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> I set my ailerons up in a straight line
> with the top surface then drop it an exta 1/2 inch to compensate for flight
> loads.
> Kolbs turn left. It is the nature of the beast.
Woody the Southerner (Canadian, that is)/Gang:
The "nature of the beast" is for the ailerons and
flaps to be pushed down in flight. If you don't
believe me, try letting the flap handle pop out of
the notch on landing. Which way did it go? If
you had full flaps on, it went up about half way
to the clean (no flap) position. If the flaps had
been in the clean position, they would have
dropped to about the mid point of adjustment.
If you adjust the ailerons with the top of the
wing, then drop them another 1/2", the air over
the wing will push them down even more. The
position of ailerons and flaps in the static
position on the ground, are not the same as they
are in flight.
If they are reflexed a tad on the ground, then
they will be about in line with the top and bottom
(split the two) of the wing.
Now.........what about this "Kolbs turn left, the
nature of the beast" BS?
Canadian Kolbs may have that "nature", but that
does not hold true for all Kolbs, or the average
Kolb. Don't you think it may have something to do
with how the airplane is rigged and whether there
is more weight on one side of the airplane or the
other?
Might be the way you all fly up there. :-)
john h
Message 19
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| Subject: | McCreary 8.00 X 6 tires |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "NBD" <mk3@bailinair.com>
Hmmm ... Well, I don't know if you'd call it a recommendation, but you did
post what you where using them as part of a discussion about a year ago,
indicated that you liked them. I didn't see a post as to air pressures and
couldn't find one but have duely recorded your latest for posterity in my
newly started operations manual.
Regards
Noel
Kolb MK III Classic
http://www.bailinair.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: John Hauk: McCreary 8.00 X 6 tires
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> I bought a set of McCreary AirTrac 8.00 X 6 tire with tubes as you
> advised last Spring, wondering if you can tell me how much air
> pressure you run in them these days on your MK III.
> Noel
Hi Noel/Gang:
I did what? Just sent a post to the List that
said I tried not to give advise. :-)
Good choice though.
I fly off a grass strip most of the time. If I
land at the local airport, I usually pick the
grass between the taxiway and the runway. For off
field, sod ops I like 6 psi.
If I am going to be flying predominately off
pavement, then I go with 8 psi.
These will give you something to start with. You
can experiment and find the pressure that suits
your situation best.
Initially I tried everything from 20 psi down to
what I use now.
john h
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Message 20
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| Subject: | MK III Builders Log & Operations Manual |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "NBD" <mk3@bailinair.com>
Just curious, does anyone have a (detailed) builders log online or one that
can be emailed. It would be handy to be able to have access to same as a
reference of building sequence and of course the inevitable hint's and kinks
one encounters during the building process.
Also, an operations and maintenance manual would be handy as a guide to
creating my own.
Thanks.
Noel
Kolb MK III Classic
New Hampshire
http://www.bailinair.com
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Victor 1+ - First Short Cross Country |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
At 08:07 PM 5/2/03 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
>
>Jack...I thought as lift is increased...so is drag?????...college was a long
>tome ago...so correct me if i'm thinking wrong....lift overcomes
>gravity......thrust overcomes drag......wouldnt the Firefly wing therefore
>have less lift...and less drag too???...other than the struts...
>
>
> snipped...((((wing loading of the FireStar will be 3.43 pounds per square
>foot and the FireFly will be 3.88. So for any given speed, FireStar wing
>drag is going to be less. The FireFly design presents much more drag.))))
>
>
Don,
In this case what is generating the equivalent lift between the two planes is the
wing angle of attack. With the FireFly's higher wing loading, the wing has
to fly with a greater angle of attack than the FireStar's wing to maintain the
horizontal flight at the same speed. And so you are correct in that the FireFly's
wing is working harder and generating higher drag than the FireStar for
level flight at the same speed.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: aileron and flap setup |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: woody <duesouth@govital.net>
At 02:53 PM 5/4/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
>
> > I set my ailerons up in a straight line
> > with the top surface then drop it an exta 1/2 inch to compensate for flight
> > loads.
>
> > Kolbs turn left. It is the nature of the beast.
>
>Woody the Southerner (Canadian, that is)/Gang:
>
>The "nature of the beast" is for the ailerons and
>flaps to be pushed down in flight. I
>If you adjust the ailerons with the top of the
>wing, then drop them another 1/2", the air over
>the wing will push them down even more. The
>position of ailerons and flaps in the static
>position on the ground, are not the same as they
>are in flight.
Unfortunately I am about 2 points dumber than a dandelion. My poor grasp
of physics would indicate that if there is a low pressure area on top of
the wing and a high pressure area on the bottom of the wing the aileron
would have a tendency to go toward the low pressure area. That would be
"up" in my limited understanding of things. Better mention that to Homer
and Dennis also. They used to, and maybe still do, put in their
instructions to deflect half an inch downwards to correct for flight loads.
>Now.........what about this "Kolbs turn left, the
>nature of the beast" BS?
>
>Canadian Kolbs may have that "nature", but that
>does not hold true for all Kolbs, or the average
>Kolb. Don't you think it may have something to do
>with how the airplane is rigged and whether there
>is more weight on one side of the airplane or the
>other?
>
>Might be the way you all fly up there. :-)
Again I admit to having below average pilot and building skills.
Unfortunately all My 2 place Kolbs have had a tendency to turn left when
flown solo. I attributed this to the weight distribution and accepted it as
the nature of the Kolbs (again based on my limited understanding of
physics) I have flown. I suppose I am the only one to notice this so please
do not think to unkindly about this poor Canadian.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: aileron and flap setup |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Woody of the South (Cananada)/Gang:
Well..........I got you beat cause I am dumber
than a box of rocks.
I never really thought why it does what it does
until now. All I know is that ailerons/flaps are
pushed down and not up while in flight.
Picture in your mind the air flowing over the top
of the Kolb wing. It is accelerated, I believe,
and follows the surface of the wing, more or less,
which slope down towards the rear. The air on the
bottom of the wing is also being deflected down
because the bottom of the wing is flat in the
static position on the ground. But when it is
flying is is concave, because the pressure is
pushing up on the fabric. One of the reasons the
Kolb wing is not as fast as it could be if it had
a rigid surface on the bottom. If the top and
bottom air is being deflected down, the aileron is
going to want to weather vane in that downward
flow of air. Per the aviator of hauck's holler,
abalama.
> Unfortunately I am about 2 points dumber than a dandelion. My poor grasp
> of physics would indicate that if there is a low pressure area on top of
> the wing and a high pressure area on the bottom of the wing the aileron
> would have a tendency to go toward the low pressure area. That would be
> "up" in my limited understanding of things.
> Better mention that to Homer
> and Dennis also. They used to, and maybe still do, put in their
> instructions to deflect half an inch downwards to correct for flight loads.
I think what they were indicating was, if you want
more lift, shorter take off, a little slower
flight, droop the ailerons. Don't believe they
were saying the ailerons wanted to fly up and not
down.
> Again I admit to having below average pilot and building skills.
> Unfortunately all My 2 place Kolbs have had a tendency to turn left when
> flown solo.
Woody, one of the reasons I initially flew my Mark
III from the right seat. I knew the factory MK
III had a terrible tendancy to roll left when
flown solo from the left seat. Used to have to
put my right knee up against the stick to take
some of the load off my right arm when flying
other than local play time.
Not gonna hold it against ya this time. :-)
john h
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: aileron and flap setup - Paint and Repair |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> Woody of the South (Cananada)/Gang:
Woody/Kolbers:
The above should have read: Canada.
BTW: My vert stab is finished. It is hanging
down in the mole hole curing. Aerothane is some
amazing stuff. Yesterday I tried to get a gnat,
the Abalama State Bird, out of my freshly shot
paint. Used my index finger. The more I tried
the worse it got. I eventually ended up with a 3
inch trench where I was gropping for the gnat.
Hit that area a couple short shots at the end of
the session. That was yesterday. This morning it
was difficult to find the "uh oh".
As two part urethane cures, it continually flows
out and smooths itself. One of the reasons I like
to use it. It will keep on curing for about a
week or so.
I am worn out. Been a long day, but successful.
Had one little place to fix in the trim line.
Should have left it alone until tomorrow, but
couldn't wait. Made a worse mess out of it by
trying to repair. Will get it squared away in a
couple days, after the tail section is back on the
airplane. I know how to do it. The tape lines
are sharp as a razor. I am tickled pink.
Think I will take a break from painting tomorrow
and let the paint cure a little more before I try
to reinstall. It takes some persuasion to get the
tail post ring back in its correct location. The
1/4" bolt holes and all those darn rivet holes
have to be line up persackly and I won't get it
line up the first try.
Break time,
john h
Message 25
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Timandjan@aol.com
I got this awsom old compass from my father in law. It's all aluminum, has a
concave round glass front, not a flat piece of glass like current compasses,
but more like what you see in the ww1 cockpits. Anyways, I took it apart, the
inside pant is flaking off, was totally empty of fluid etc. I was going to
redo it myself and maybe put it in my car, but it's so neat looking that I
might have it rebuild for a airplane project. Does anybody know of anyone
that redoes old instruments??? Or what could I paing it with again inside so
the compass fluid would not eat the paint. Any ideas???
Tim
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 26
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Chuck Davis - Comcast <davis207@comcast.net>
Any one have experiance with Headsets, Inc's M-01 ANR inset kits?
Thanks
Chuck Davis
Message 27
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| Subject: | Firefly Shoulderbelts |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Chuck Davis - Comcast <davis207@comcast.net>
The Firefly manual (From the Old Kolb Cmpany) only shows a lap belt. Where
have people been attaching their shoulder harness? I currently have the
running all the way back to the engine mount. All the posible attachments
points further forward are less substantial. The only other oprion I see is
to drill and mount them onto the cage.
Chuck Davis
Firefly #0028
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Firefly Shoulderbelts |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
Maybe it would fit the wing attachment bolts.
Mine does, but it's not a firefly.
http://www.mindspring.com/~possums/Gapseal.jpg
At 09:21 PM 5/4/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Chuck Davis - Comcast <davis207@comcast.net>
>
>The Firefly manual (From the Old Kolb Cmpany) only shows a lap belt. Where
>have people been attaching their shoulder harness? I currently have the
>running all the way back to the engine mount. All the posible attachments
>points further forward are less substantial. The only other oprion I see is
>to drill and mount them onto the cage.
>
>Chuck Davis
>==============================================================
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Compass rebuild |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@airmail.net>
Don't know about the paint but the fluid used in most aviation style
compasses is similar to Kerosene, it works fine for this application. As
they age the seals die out and the fluid slowly leaks out. You'll probably
need a seal kit or fabricate new seals for it. If it's an old
antique/classic aviation type you might be able to sell it to pay for a new
modern one. I've had good luck with the US made Pathways, but bad luck
with the one made in China sold by Aircraft Spruce. Replaced it with a
Pathway.
jerryb
At 08:48 PM 5/4/03 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Timandjan@aol.com
>
>I got this awsom old compass from my father in law. It's all aluminum, has a
>concave round glass front, not a flat piece of glass like current compasses,
>but more like what you see in the ww1 cockpits. Anyways, I took it apart, the
>inside pant is flaking off, was totally empty of fluid etc. I was going to
>redo it myself and maybe put it in my car, but it's so neat looking that I
>might have it rebuild for a airplane project. Does anybody know of anyone
>that redoes old instruments??? Or what could I paing it with again inside so
>the compass fluid would not eat the paint. Any ideas???
>
>Tim
>
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 30
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Rick & Martha Neilsen <neilsenrm@comcast.net>
I have a set that I have been flying with for about three years. The noise
reduction works great with the frequency that my VW produces. I have heard
that with the higher frequency produced by higher RPM engines the noise
isn't canceled as well. I understand this is a problem with most if not all
ANR headsets.
Rick Neilsen
redrive VW powered MKIII
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chuck Davis -
Comcast
Subject: Kolb-List: ANR Headsets
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Chuck Davis - Comcast
<davis207@comcast.net>
Any one have experiance with Headsets, Inc's M-01 ANR inset kits?
Thanks
Chuck Davis
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Aerothane and Polytone |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
Gang,
All this talk about tape, Thought I would comment. I used the 3M masking
tape 3/4 wide, BLUE in color and made of paper, for my trim colors over white
polytone with good results. Hope this helps.
Ed in Houston
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Firefly Shoulderbelts |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob N." <ronoy@shentel.net>
Chuck, I can send you a couple of .jpg pix tomorrow eve after I go out
to my hangar.
Bob N. FF070
do not archive
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: ANR Headsets |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "vincenicely" <vincenicely@chartertn.net>
I have a set of Headsets, Inc. M-01 inserts in a David Clark Headset. I use
it with my Firestar II having a Rotax 503 with IVO 2 blade prop and in my
Sonerai having a Rotax 582 with Warp Drive 2 blade prop. In both machines,
the ANR gives a significant noise reduction compared to not having it. I
have been using mine about 3 years and am very pleased with the results.
Vinc Nicely
Message 34
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| Subject: | Auto paint and small repairs |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "M. Domenic Perez" <perezmdomenic@plateautel.net>
The "ding" in my aileron trailing edge tube (5/16" diameter tubing, I
think) is substantial enough a bend so that fabric will definitely need to
be cut into, if not a section actually cut out, to properly inspect and
repair. The outboard section, out from the last rib, had the trailing edge
displace 2 to 3". I popped holes for safety wire to be wrapped around the
tubing and with a puller arrangement, returned it to within 1/2 to 3/4" of
normal location. I don't believe the tube is kinked but it needs attention.
The tubing repair will not be a mystery. The unknown here is proper
preparation of the auto painted fabric to get a patch to stick properly. Can
I sand the auto paint down enough without damaging the fabric that I want
the patch to stick to? Will it still stick good enough if it proved
impossible to completely sand away ALL of the auto paint in the area?
Gentlemen, this is why the poly system paints should be used.
M. Domenic Perez
Vaughn, NM
Firestar II, 503
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