Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:27 AM - Re: Kolb FS gap seals.... (Jim Ballenger)
2. 04:49 AM - Re: Firestar II banks to the right (johnjung@compusenior.com)
3. 04:59 AM - Re: Firefly Question (johnjung@compusenior.com)
4. 07:08 AM - Re: Re: Firestar II banks to the right (John Cooley)
5. 07:39 AM - Re: Kolb FS gap seals.... (ul15rhb@juno.com)
6. 08:31 AM - Re: Help, thanks (Kelvin Kurkowski)
7. 10:53 AM - Re: Help, thanks (Kelvin Kurkowski)
8. 01:38 PM - Re: Firefly Question (jerb)
9. 01:56 PM - Re: Re: Firestar II banks to the right (HShack@aol.com)
10. 06:31 PM - Re: Re: Firestar II banks to the right (Timandjan@aol.com)
11. 07:47 PM - Re: Re: Firestar II banks to the right (HShack@aol.com)
12. 09:50 PM - Re: Firefly Question (DAquaNut@aol.com)
13. 10:05 PM - Re: Firefly Question (DAquaNut@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb FS gap seals.... |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Ballenger" <ulpilot@cavtel.net>
Jim
I use ty wraps, one on each side of the wing gap seal to hold mine on. I
have 2 holes drilled in the gap seal near the aft edge above the wing fold
joint to thread my ty wrap through. It works for me.
Jim Ballenger
Flying a FS KXP 447
Building a MK III X
Virginia Beach, VA
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@telepath.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb FS gap seals....
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@telepath.com>
>
> Used to belong to this list a few years back but thought I'd post
> something that may be of use safety wise. A bit of history first.....
>
> From the FAA accident site...
>
> On August 21, 1999, about 1940 Eastern Daylight Time, a
> homebuilt Kolb Mark III, N6268A, was substantially damaged after
> impacting terrain near Scott, Ohio. The certificated private pilot and
> passenger were fatally injured. Visual meteorological conditions
> prevailed and no flight plan was filed for the local flight conducted
> under 14 CFR Part 91. According to witnesses, the pilot had
> departed from an airstrip located on his property, heading in a
> southerly direction. The airplane climbed to about 200 feet above
> the ground, then leveled off. About 3 minutes later, the engine noise
> began to decrease, "like he was throttling back." The airplane began
> a left turn, and disappeared from view. The witness then heard the
> sound of "plastic tearing, and breaking of corn stalks." A second
> witness, who noticed the airplane after it passed overhead, stated
> that the airplane made a "weird sound" and descended nose first
> toward the ground. A resident, located about 1/2 mile southwest of
> the wreckage, found a part of the airplane in a bean field, and
> turned it over to the local authorities. A Federal Aviation
> Administration Inspector later identified the part as a gap seal. The
> gap seal was an airfoil shaped piece of plexi-glass, used to fill the
> gap left in- between the wings when they are assembled. The
> wreckage was retained for further examination.
>
>
> Why post this? This afternoon while chasing some thermals I heard
> a high pitched whine on takeoff and throughout the climbout.
> Sounded like the fan belt of the Hirth may have been slipping (a
> flat/poly belt) but temps were all nominal. Caught some lift to about
> 1500 and happened to look up at the gap seal and it had started to
> move forward by about 6 inches...and still going. There probably
> was no way for it to depart the airframe unless the screws attaching
> the base section and the top section let loose/ripped out or
> aerodynamic forces ripped it off...not a pleasant thought and entirely
> possible. The old Kolb plans called for adhesive backed velcro to
> hold the Lexan to the wing root fabric surfaces and it worked for
> about 5 years, even in Oklahoma heat...until today. I've flown
> without the gap seal before but this was entirely different. Airspeed
> dropped dramatically and had to point the nose way down to keep at
> 40mph. Trying to hold the seal back against the wing with left hand,
> stick and throttle with right hand is no fun. Got down safely but
> again...it was not fun. The whine sound? That was the rear of the
> gap seal having risen up to partially obscure airflow into the fan thus
> the odd whine.
>
> I'm rethinking the seal attach and will go completely mechanical.
> Adhesive velcro sucks, anyway. I would seriously caution anyone
> that Lexan gap seal held in place with velcro is a BAD idea for the
> long term. Got away with it for awhile.......
>
>
> Cheers,
> Jim Baker
> Elmore City, Oklahoma
>
> J.Baker
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar II banks to the right |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "johnjung@compusenior.com" <johnjung@compusenior.com>
Tim and group,
I don't understand this. It appears to be the opposite of what I have
found to be true on my Firestar II and previously on my original
Firestar. My experience has been that trim tabs on ailerons do control
roll, with hands off, and adjusting the aileron pushrods just moved the
stick.
John Jung
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Timandjan@aol.com
Does it do this under power or at idle??? P factor causing this???? I
ask because all a trim tab on the aileron will do is move the stick. If
you lower one aileron with a trim tab, you raise the other and they
equal out, only moving the stick. A trim tab will just balance each
aileron out. A aileron trim tab does not work like a rudder or elevator
trim tab. Really the only way this could work is to move one up or down
by the pushrod, changing the rigging, but then you mess with the design,
affect cruise, pitch etc. <--
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Firefly Question |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "johnjung@compusenior.com" <johnjung@compusenior.com>
Ed and Group,
I flew a Quicksilver MX and Sprint before my Firestars. I also got about
30 hours in a Cessna 150, working toward my private pilot, before buying
my firest Firestar. My opinion is that the 150 along with the fairly
extensive dual trainning was better preparation for the Firestar than
the Quicksilvers. I liked the Quicksilvers, but I thought that they
really allowed sloppy flying.
John Jung
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar II banks to the right |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Cooley" <johnc@datasync.com>
Hi Gang,
Tim's answer to this confused me also. My FS II had a roll left tendency
that I corrected with a trim tab bent down on the right aileron. This trim
tab bent down causes the air pressure against it to push the right aileron
up. Since the right aileron is connected to the left aileron via the control
linkage it also forces the left aileron down. This counteracts the roll left
Adjusting the pushrods has been discussed before and will only change the
position of the stick. If you start off with a plane that rolls left and
adjust the pushrods to correct this then fly the plane it is still going to
roll left the same amount but your stick will be to the right or left of
where it was depending on the adjustment made. All this should be in the
archives.
Take Care,
John Cooley
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar II banks to the right
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "johnjung@compusenior.com"
<johnjung@compusenior.com>
Tim and group,
I don't understand this. It appears to be the opposite of what I have
found to be true on my Firestar II and previously on my original
Firestar. My experience has been that trim tabs on ailerons do control
roll, with hands off, and adjusting the aileron pushrods just moved the
stick.
John Jung
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Timandjan@aol.com
Does it do this under power or at idle??? P factor causing this???? I
ask because all a trim tab on the aileron will do is move the stick. If
you lower one aileron with a trim tab, you raise the other and they
equal out, only moving the stick. A trim tab will just balance each
aileron out. A aileron trim tab does not work like a rudder or elevator
trim tab. Really the only way this could work is to move one up or down
by the pushrod, changing the rigging, but then you mess with the design,
affect cruise, pitch etc. <--
.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb FS gap seals.... |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ul15rhb@juno.com
Jim/gang,
I use a velcro gap seal on my Firestar and it has been perfect for 4
years. Mine has a mini bungee cord attached to a couple of eyebolts in
the rear part so if the velcro ever decided to detach, it would hold it.
That bungee also acts as vibration dampener so the gap seal doesn't move
up and down.
The velcro strips have to be replaced when the adhesive comes loose, but
the bungee holds it. The front part is held in place well enough that I
cannot see it ever coming off.
It's a terrible shame the pilot of that Mark III somehow declared an
emergency when in reality he may not have been in danger with the sound
of the gap seal flapping.
That time I hit a bird, I did not know that I had hit anything. All I
knew was the plane was vibrating more than usual and I had to hold right
rudder to keep it flying straight. I had lots of places to land under me,
but I chose to fly 38 miles home. I could see the underside of the wings
were fine and I could turn around and see the tail was intact, and the
problem wasn't getting any worse. So I made it home and found the fabric
caved in on the last rib, top left wing. The bird had made a glancing
blow to the wing in a fast climbing left turn.
Ralph Burlingame
Original Firestar, 16 years flying it
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 22:08:42 -0500 "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@telepath.com>
writes:
> I'm rethinking the seal attach and will go completely mechanical.
> Adhesive velcro sucks, anyway. I would seriously caution anyone
> that Lexan gap seal held in place with velcro is a BAD idea for the
>
> long term. Got away with it for awhile.......
>
>
> Cheers,
> Jim Baker
> Elmore City, Oklahoma
>
> J.Baker
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Help, thanks |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kelvin Kurkowski" <kkurkow@chase3000.com>
Thanks, I think I realized all that. The hope here is to acquire the
"elusive" private pilot's ticket while accumulating time "single" in the
Kolb. I'm not sure who I will use for an instructor yet but Steve in his
years in the G/A world says it can be worked out with a minimum amount of
time in a G/A trainer. Thanks for your input. We are hoping for a quick
trip to the Kalispell area in Aug. I'm not sure if it will work out, but if
it does we will try to contact you. Thanks KK
----- Original Message -----
From: "kuffel" <kuffel@cyberport.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Help, thanks
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: kuffel <kuffel@cyberport.net>
>
> Keven (Kelvin?),
>
> Do Not Archive.
>
> <<uncle .. flown for years .. I never finished my GA license.. He
> recently lost his medical
> so we are grounded... we are looking for a Mark III>>
>
> The bad news is, for all practical purposes, you can not currently
> legally fly a Mark III Kolb without a pilot's license and a medical.
>
> The good news is, if you can wait for the Light Sport regulations to
> grind their way to enactment, your uncle can probably fly again, at
> least in J-3 and Kolb style airplanes. As proposed, these regulations
> would allow him to fly small, slow aircraft without a medical *IF* he
> has a driver's licence *and* he is unaware of any medical condition,
> temporary or chronic, which would make him unsafe to fly. Beware of the
> 2nd part of this "if". It will probably give full employment to a lot
> of trial lawyers.
>
> If you still want to fly without getting a pilot's licence then your
> only option is to look into single place Part 103 compliant aircraft
> such as the FireFly.
>
> Tom Kuffel
> Whitefish, MT 59937
> Building Original FireStar
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Help, thanks |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kelvin Kurkowski" <kkurkow@chase3000.com>
Sorry guys one post and some kind replies, and I already messed up on a
return reply. I'll try to pay closer attention. Thanks to you all.
KK
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelvin Kurkowski" <kkurkow@chase3000.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Help, thanks
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kelvin Kurkowski"
<kkurkow@chase3000.com>
>
> Thanks, I think I realized all that. The hope here is to acquire the
> "elusive" private pilot's ticket while accumulating time "single" in the
> Kolb. I'm not sure who I will use for an instructor yet but Steve in his
> years in the G/A world says it can be worked out with a minimum amount of
> time in a G/A trainer. Thanks for your input. We are hoping for a quick
> trip to the Kalispell area in Aug. I'm not sure if it will work out, but
if
> it does we will try to contact you. Thanks KK
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kuffel" <kuffel@cyberport.net>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Help, thanks
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: kuffel <kuffel@cyberport.net>
> >
> > Keven (Kelvin?),
> >
> > Do Not Archive.
> >
> > <<uncle .. flown for years .. I never finished my GA license.. He
> > recently lost his medical
> > so we are grounded... we are looking for a Mark III>>
> >
> > The bad news is, for all practical purposes, you can not currently
> > legally fly a Mark III Kolb without a pilot's license and a medical.
> >
> > The good news is, if you can wait for the Light Sport regulations to
> > grind their way to enactment, your uncle can probably fly again, at
> > least in J-3 and Kolb style airplanes. As proposed, these regulations
> > would allow him to fly small, slow aircraft without a medical *IF* he
> > has a driver's licence *and* he is unaware of any medical condition,
> > temporary or chronic, which would make him unsafe to fly. Beware of the
> > 2nd part of this "if". It will probably give full employment to a lot
> > of trial lawyers.
> >
> > If you still want to fly without getting a pilot's licence then your
> > only option is to look into single place Part 103 compliant aircraft
> > such as the FireFly.
> >
> > Tom Kuffel
> > Whitefish, MT 59937
> > Building Original FireStar
> >
> >
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Firefly Question |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
Ed,
I think your referring to a post I made to George. The thing I noticed is
people new to Kolbs have a tendency to slow them down to much on the final
landing phase on there first few flights. Not sure if its the high
incidence of the wing that visually throws them off or that the plane its
self slowing rapidly once the nose is raised into a landing attitude but it
seems to catch a number of new owner/pilots. When flying a strange
airplane for the first few times you should never get it to slow, always
come in a little hot under slight power and fly it to the ground, once you
make contact, back on the power. You don't try to land a strange plane at
full stall on the very first landing.
We had a FireStar here on our field that three different people pranged the
gear on there first flights. One was the initial test pilot an experienced
Kit Fox pilot, second was the owner/student who attempted to do crow hops
as taught by his instructor in a different type airplane, last was the
owners UL instructor himself. I had warned both the test pilot and the
owner/student not to get it to slow on landing the first few flights until
they were more comfortable with the airplane. Yep, all three pranged the
gear. One thing about the Kolbs, their easy to fix.
There's some thing about the Kolb's (FireFly & FireStars) that surface
during the final landing phase which seems to catch people asleep at the
controls on their first few flights.
I contribute it to allowing their speed to get to slow on the final phase
of the approach to touch down. As they begin the round out, often high,
they find the speed decaying quite rapidly and they can not over come their
rate of decent even by adding power resulting in a harder than desired
landing. (When behind the power curve, you smack the runway just about the
time the Rotax spools up and find yourself sitting there taking
inventory) For the first few flights come in carrying a little power while
feeling for the runway, at the moment of contact come back on the
power. Once you get a few landings you will adapt to the planes
characteristics and likely will not have any problems after that.
By the way, after the owners instructor bent the gear, the student followed
the my advise, same as I gave George regarding the taxing, not to crow hop,
and carrying a little power to touch down until he got comfortable with the
plane, he hasn't had any problems since.
The Kolbs are excellent flyers, their nothing wrong with them but don't get
to slow on initial first few flights. Once you start rounding out they
slow down. By carrying a little power, it buys you time to think and make
a gentle landing. After you get a few landings under your belt, you know
how the plane reacts and can anticipate things and back off the need to
carry power. After shooting two sets of 10 landing each about hour a part,
I could spot land the FireFly. It's a good flyer.
jerb
At 11:48 PM 7/24/03 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
>
> Gang,
>
> Anyone have much experience flying a Quicksilver , and then transition
> to a
>firefly or firestar? Just wondering how much difference there is between
>them. I have over 100 hours in a Wizard J-3( Very similar to the Quicksilver).
>
> I understand the concept of lots of drag & the slow down fast concept
> that
>is inherent in most all ultralights. The wizard I had , mainly just mushed,
>And you would feel a slight buffeting first then it would drop the nose a
>little and resume flying again . Ive heard some on this list say that
>the Kolbs
>gave no warning at all before a stall. To me that is not a good thing.
>
> Ed (in Houston)
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar II banks to the right |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com
In a message dated 7/26/03 7:49:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
johnjung@compusenior.com writes:
> Tim and group,
>
> I don't understand this. It appears to be the opposite of what I have
> found to be true on my Firestar II and previously on my original
> Firestar. My experience has been that trim tabs on ailerons do control
> roll, with hands off, and adjusting the aileron pushrods just moved the
> stick.
>
> John Jung
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Timandjan@aol.com
>
> Does it do this under power or at idle??? P factor causing this???? I
> ask because all a trim tab on the aileron will do is move the stick. If
> you lower one aileron with a trim tab, you raise the other and they
> equal out, only moving the stick. A trim tab will just balance each
> aileron out. A aileron trim tab does not work like a rudder or elevator
> trim tab. Really the only way this could work is to move one up or down
> by the pushrod, changing the rigging, but then you mess with the design,
> affect cruise, pitch etc. <--
>
>
>
After careful consideration, I followed brother Pike's advice & put the trim
tab bent down on the left aileron to counteract the right roll. The tab was
about 2" X 7", mounted under the aileron & bent down about 30 degrees. That
was too much, as we now had a left roll; I knew then we were home free!. Took
about half the bend out & she flies hands-off.
Shack
FS II
SC
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar II banks to the right |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Timandjan@aol.com
In a message dated 7/26/03 7:50:00 AM, johnjung@compusenior.com writes:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "johnjung@compusenior.com" <
> johnjung@compusenior.com>
>
> Tim and group,
>
> I don't understand this. It appears to be the opposite of what I have
> found to be true on my Firestar II and previously on my original
> Firestar. My experience has been that trim tabs on ailerons do control
> roll, with hands off, and adjusting the aileron pushrods just moved the
> stick.
>
> John Jung
>
If you add a trim tab on one aileron, one aileron only, it will move the
opposite one in the other direction the same amount, and at the same time moving
your stick. Stand by one Aileron, move it up or down, watch the other, it will
move the same in the opposite direction, you moving it is the same as moving
it in flight with a trim tab. Now imaging flying, as they are both attached and
move the same in opposite directions, they will balance out in flight, but
the stick will be off center. The only way to change the rigging is to
lengthen one o the other with the pushrod. But here, you affect the rigging. I
know
it's hard to understand, but I had a friend explain it to me and show me on his
plane.
if I can help, give me a call.
703 318 7896
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar II banks to the right |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com
In a message dated 7/26/03 9:32:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Timandjan@aol.com writes:
> If you add a trim tab on one aileron, one aileron only, it will move the
> opposite one in the other direction the same amount, and at the same time
> moving
> your stick. Stand by one Aileron, move it up or down, watch the other, it
> will
> move the same in the opposite direction, you moving it is the same as moving
>
> it in flight with a trim tab. Now imaging flying, as they are both attached
> and
> move the same in opposite directions, they will balance out in flight, but
> the stick will be off center. The only way to change the rigging is to
> lengthen one o the other with the pushrod. But here, you affect the rigging.
> I know
> it's hard to understand, but I had a friend explain it to me and show me on
> his
> plane.
>
>
Tim, I think you have it backwards- just changing an aileron pushrod length
will not correct a roll situation; it will only change the stick position.
However, adding a trim tab to the bottom of an aileron will indeed cause that
aileron to reflex up & therefore the other one down. Sure, when this
happens, the stick position will change a little, but the plane will also roll
in the
direction the ailerons are telling it to.
I know it works because I just did it.
Shack
FS II
SC
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Firefly Question |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
In a message dated 7/26/03 5:59:40 AM Central Standard Time,
johnjung@compusenior.com writes:
<< the Quicksilvers. I liked the Quicksilvers, but I thought that they
really allowed sloppy flying.
John Jung
>>
John,
That is kinda what I was thinking. You get by with a lot more with the
Quicksilver than in a kolb.
Ed ( In Houston)
Do Not Archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Firefly Question |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
In a message dated 7/26/03 2:39:08 PM Central Standard Time,
ulflyer@verizon.net writes:
<< The Kolbs are excellent flyers, their nothing wrong with them but don't
get
to slow on initial first few flights. Once you start rounding out they
slow down. By carrying a little power, it buys you time to think and make
a gentle landing. After you get a few landings under your belt, you know
how the plane reacts and can anticipate things and back off the need to
carry power. After shooting two sets of 10 landing each about hour a part,
I could spot land the FireFly. It's a good flyer.
jerb
>>
Jerb,
Do you think the pranging problem is aggrivated by the tendancy of
general aviation pilots being used to flaring at a distance above the runway and
not being aware of how quick the airspeed falls of due to the greater drag in
a
kolb?
Ed (In Houston)
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