Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:29 AM - powerfin? (Jim Gerken)
2. 06:49 AM - Re: powerfin? (John Hauck)
3. 06:53 AM - Re: IVO Propellers Right & Left & Powerfin? (Jack & Louise Hart)
4. 06:54 AM - props (Paul Petty)
5. 07:17 AM - Re: Cleaning Up The FireFly Continues. (Jack & Louise Hart)
6. 07:36 AM - Re: props (Richard Pike)
7. 07:40 AM - Re: Cleaning Up The FireFly Continues. (Richard Pike)
8. 07:57 AM - Re: Foam cutter (GeoR38@aol.com)
9. 08:07 AM - Props (Dwight.Kottke@hti.htch.com)
10. 08:27 AM - special tap for mounting holes for Rotax gearbox? (Jim Gerken)
11. 08:41 AM - Re: Props (John Hauck)
12. 08:46 AM - Re: props (Don Gherardini)
13. 08:57 AM - Re: Cleaning Up The FireFly Continues. (John Hauck)
14. 08:58 AM - Re: props (Kirk Smith)
15. 08:58 AM - Re: special tap for mounting holes for Rotax gearbox? (Kirk Smith)
16. 10:14 AM - Re: Props (Richard Pike)
17. 10:30 AM - Re: props (Bob Bean)
18. 10:35 AM - Re: Props (John Hauck)
19. 01:06 PM - Re: Cleaning Up The FireFly Continues. (Richard Swiderski)
20. 01:10 PM - Re: Props (Richard Swiderski)
21. 01:32 PM - Re: Props (Kirk Smith)
22. 01:36 PM - Re: special tap for mounting holes for Rotax gearbox? (Richard Swiderski)
23. 03:05 PM - Re: Props (John Hauck)
24. 04:20 PM - Re: Props (Kirk Smith)
25. 04:52 PM - Re: Props (John Hauck)
26. 05:16 PM - Re: Cleaning Up The FireFly Continues. (CRAIG M NELSON)
27. 05:24 PM - Re: Props (Kirk Smith)
28. 05:35 PM - Re: Props (Bob Bean)
29. 05:36 PM - R&D (Paul Petty)
30. 06:08 PM - Re: Cleaning Up The FireFly Continues. (Don Gherardini)
31. 07:05 PM - Re: Props (Richard Swiderski)
32. 08:56 PM - Re: Cleaning Up The FireFly Continues. (Jack & Louise Hart)
Message 1
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08/26/2003 08:28:07 AM
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jim Gerken <gerken@us.ibm.com>
>I have been looking for another propeller with a broad blade. I came
across Powerfin.
>They make claims of lower inertia than, 1/3 the flexure of, and better
>performance than the IVO. Does anyone have any experience with Powerfin
on
>a Kolb product? If so, how has it performed?
>Jack B. Hart FF004
>Jackson, M
I used a 3 blade 66" Powerfin original design blade prop for six years/170
hours. It performed perfectly for me. It would not survive a bolt or
spark plug passing thru it as well as a Warp prop would, but other than
that, it beats Warp in many ways. Most guys in the know agree that if you
can beat a Warp, buy it. Powerfin weighs less, has lower rotational
inertia, better aerodynamics. Hans did a back to back with Warp, Ivo,
Powerfin and found Powerfin to be slightly more efficient than others
tested. Powerfin runs smoother than Warp due to slightly more flexible,
but is not nearly as flexible as Ivo so will not require the 5" clearance
of Ivo. The newest Powerfins (B or F blade designs) are more efficient
than my old A blade. My A blade was pitched for use with a 582 on a
Mkiii, "C" box at 2.62:1, 6200 static, 6600 WOT level flight at 93 mph.
Climb was excellent, I had no vertical indicator but, with 20 mph headwind
the plane would go very nearly straight up. I kept the prop and will now
use it on the BMW. BMW progress report soon.
Jim Gerken
Message 2
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> I used a 3 blade 66" Powerfin original design blade prop for six years/170
> hours. It performed perfectly for me.
It would not survive a bolt or
> spark plug passing thru it as well as a Warp prop would, but other than
> that, it beats Warp in many ways.
Most guys in the know agree that if you
> can beat a Warp, buy it.
> Jim Gerken
Jim G/Gang:
How much experience do you have flying with the
Warp Drive Prop?
john h
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: IVO Propellers Right & Left & Powerfin? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
At 01:05 AM 8/22/03 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: <rowedl@highstream.net>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>: Jack Hart wrote:
>I have been looking for another propeller with a broad blade. I came across
>Powerfin. They make claims of lower inertia than, 1/3 the flexure of, and
>better performance than the IVO. Does anyone have any experience with
>Powerfin on a Kolb product? If so, how has it performed?
>
>
Denny, Richard, and Jim,
Thank you for relaying your experiences with Powerfin propellers. I checked the
archives and found there were no negative comments about performance. I ordered
one for the FireFly.
May be the combination of the Powerfin, along with additional legal drag reduction,
I may get the FireFly to go 120 miles on four gallons.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
do not archive
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 4
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
Thanks Guys,
That's a lot of help. If you don't mind, could you clear up a question I have about
types of props. Why do GA planes such as the C-150 that I do my training
in use steel props and not composite ones like warp IVO ect... I often have wondered
how that small steel prop on the 150 can produce enough thrust to propel
the 1600lb plane as compared to the, what seem to be tiny thin blades on the
warp? And then there is the constant speed prop on the RV8. Wow that thing will
clean off a ramp in seconds.
Thanking you all in advance.
The Student
pp
do not archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Cleaning Up The FireFly Continues. |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
At 11:17 PM 8/25/03 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
>
>One thought - Having read a bit on flutter, there is a possibility that
>taking the trailing edges on the ailerons to a knife edge may make them
>more flutter prone. Plus, you will inevitably be adding a tad more weight
>to the aileron trailing edges.
>
>Make haste slowly and carefully! I have seen Kolb aileron flutter and it's
>not pretty.
>
>Richard Pike
>MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
Richard,
Thanks for the tip on the hot wire cutter.
I am curious. What was your aileron chord, and at what speed did you experience
the flutter?
I changed the FireFly aileron chord from 15 to 9 inches. I believe the current
FireFlys use an 11 inch chord.
Adding a fairing to a 5/16 od tube will add about 3/8 of an inch to the aileron
chord. The weight of the foam, fabric, and paint may come out to 3-4 ounces.
This is no where close to the weight removed by reducing the chord from 15 to
9 inches, so I feel there will not be a problem.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
do not archive
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 6
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
Actually, most metal propellers are not steel, but aluminum, and the sizes
are not too different from what we use. Continental O-200's normally use a
prop around 71". If the C-150 was expected to cruise at the speeds our
Kolbs normally cruise at, it would probably have a 74"-76" prop and climb a
lot better than it does.
Lycoming O-235's typically use a 74" prop.
The RV-8 probably uses a variable pitch 76" - 80" prop and on the ramp it
is in "low gear", so yeah, it ought to kick up a lot of wind.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
At 08:56 AM 8/26/03 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
>
>Thanks Guys,
>That's a lot of help. If you don't mind, could you clear up a question I
>have about types of props. Why do GA planes such as the C-150 that I do my
>training in use steel props and not composite ones like warp IVO ect... I
>often have wondered how that small steel prop on the 150 can produce
>enough thrust to propel the 1600lb plane as compared to the, what seem to
>be tiny thin blades on the warp? And then there is the constant speed prop
>on the RV8. Wow that thing will clean off a ramp in seconds.
>
>Thanking you all in advance.
>
>The Student
>
>pp
>do not archive
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Cleaning Up The FireFly Continues. |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
At 09:14 AM 8/26/03 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
>
>I am curious. What was your aileron chord, and at what speed did you
>experience the flutter?
>
>Jack B. Hart FF004
>Jackson, MO
Standard MKIII aileron, except with a trim tab added. (Leetle extra weight)
And flutter started at around 87-88 mph.
The aileron counter balancer from Kolb cured it.
However, the MKIII was somewhat aileron flutter susceptible anyway, so who
knows?
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List:Foam cutter |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
In a message dated 8/26/03 12:50:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, HShack@aol.com
writes:
>
> > For resistance and power, I used a 12 volt 6 amp battery charger and added
> > a couple old fog lamps I had laying in a box. By adding or subtracting
> >
>
> As usual, Brother Pike is right on; however, instead of the fog lamps you
> can
> put in a dimmer switch [cheap from Lowe's]. Adjust for proper wire temp.
>
> Shack
> FS II
> SC
>
> If you use the battery approach, make sure the dimmer switch is good for DC
> ...an AC switch won't work...a cleaner arrangement would be to use a variac
> plugged into ac going into a 120/12volt or 10:1 transformer...then the variac
> is your adjustment of heat...of course you could also replace the variac
> with that AC dimmer switch if it is rated high enough on current...usually they
> are rated at 6 amps.. ie. 600 watts......of course you could put it in the
> refrigerator and keep it cool if the current is above that ..and ......etc.
>
George Randolph
firestar driver from Akron...soon to be The Villages Fla
Message 9
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08/26/2003 10:07:16 AM,
Serialize complete at 08/26/2003 10:07:16 AM,
Itemize by SMTP Server on HUDOMGW1/HTI(Release 5.0.12 |February 13, 2003)
at
08/26/2003 10:07:01 AM,
Serialize by Router on HUDOMGW1/HTI(Release 5.0.12 |February 13, 2003)
at
08/26/2003 10:07:02 AM,
Serialize complete at 08/26/2003 10:07:02 AM
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Dwight.Kottke@hti.htch.com
With the recent prop discussion, I have a question for all. At Oshkosh
this year I bought a Warp Drive prop protractor (great tool). I put it on
my Ivo and found the two tips to be 2.5 degrees off from each other. I
then checked my old Tennessee wood prop and found the tips to be 2 degrees
off. Is this common for tips to be different from each other?
The Flying Farmer
do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | special tap for mounting holes for Rotax gearbox? |
08/26/2003 10:27:01 AM
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jim Gerken <gerken@us.ibm.com>
I seem to remember vaguely that Richard or someone (sorry) recommended
something I think was called a close tolerance tap for making the holes for
mounting a gearbox to an engine which was not already threaded for a
gearbox. Is this ringing anyone's memory bell? I am about to tap the
holes to mount a "C" box to a 6061 T651 plate, 0.65" thick, for "C" box
mounting.
Jim Gerken
Message 11
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
I put it on
> my Ivo and found the two tips to be 2.5 degrees off from each other. I
> then checked my old Tennessee wood prop and found the tips to be 2 degrees
> off. Is this common for tips to be different from each other?
>
> The Flying Farmer
Dwight/All:
I don't know, but all three of my Warp Drive Prop
Blades are at the same angle of attack (using the
Warp Drive Protractor).
The Warp Drive Prop will raise Hell if all two or
three blades are not the same angle. Maybe
different angles for different blades don't affect
their performance. I can not speak to IVO or
Power Fin in that respect.
I can say the Warp Drive System is set and forget,
once you have the prop set up to your
satisfaction. I am talking more than 500 hours
without additional adjustment to bring blades back
to the same pitch, vibration, losing leading edge
tape, blades coming apart, :-), or other problems.
I was sitting here in the secure environment of my
old lake house contemplating some of the comments
about props other than Warp Drive. Came to the
conclusion I would not fly to Alaska with anything
but a Warp. For that matter, the up coming flight
to Kitty Hawk and then to London, KY, for the
Annual Kolb Flying, will be done with none other
than a Warp. Don't need the nagging thought of a
blade coming apart to ruin my flight, airplane, or
my butt. :-) I fly for fun. Safety,
reliability, the capability to get me there and
back safely, is a key ingredient to "fun" flying.
Take care,
john h
Message 12
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Paul,
from a mechanics point of veiw only, not thinking of preformance, but of
durability..a GA engine such as the one in a Cessna or that RV, it is
designed to withstand the load(s) of the prop directly on the
crankshaft....as an mechanic you would recognize this right away if you saw
the size of the crank on the prop end and the size of the bearing
journal...it is about 4 inches long and the crankcase is re-inforced all
around it. I believe that few of the engines we use in our super light
aircraft world...with exception to the R912, could stand anywhere near the
inertial loads on that end of the crankshaft. I also believe that the
development of all these composite props are directly related to this fact,
and would there would not be a market for them if these psuedo snowmobile
engines and redrives that dominate sales could use a stiffer, heavier,better
prop, and not bust.!
About the only thing you ever hear against a warp, is that it is one of the
heaviest and has a pretty high inertia....well, thats really only compared
to everything lighter, and for low horsepower, and it not even close to GA
props. Generally it is accepted that a stiffer prop preforms better.
when chooseing a prop for an engine that was never designed to run on an
airplane..(only modified to do so), you should probably take into
consideration how stout the business end is...the bearings on the
re-drive...the crankend support, also the gross weight of the aircraft, and
so on, and pick a prop that wont be to heavy for that design.
For instance...I would luv to be able to run a warp on my Firefly, but I
dont have the confidence in the ability of a light weight belt reduction
like the one I have to handle the inertia loads of any but the lightest
props....and because I have to run an extention in this pusher config, I am
ever more concerned about the weight.
Course...I could be all wet too!
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Cleaning Up The FireFly Continues. |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> However, the MKIII was somewhat aileron flutter susceptible anyway, so who
> knows?
>
> Richard Pike
Richard/All:
I'll drink to that, Diet Pepsi, of course.
All my Kolbs, Ultrastar, Firestar, MK III,
experienced aileron flutter. Is it coincidental
that I load up the fabric with dope and paint? I
think so. It is all a matter of "unbalance". The
weight of that aileron hanging on the hinge at the
leading edge. With an airframe at 1,850+ hours, I
find the Kolb aileron counterbalance weights do a
wonderful job of 100% flutter prevention. I used
to think it was a matter of loose linkage in the
system, but many flight hours and extremely loose
rod end bearings, 4130 bushings and pivot points,
I find the counterbalance weights do their job in
spite of sloppy aileron controls.
Why don't all Kolbs experience flutter? I don't
know. I put many hours on the Factory MK III and
other Kolb models. Never experienced a flutter
problem. In fact, the only flutter problem of a
Kolb Factory airplane that I am aware of is the
experience of Dick Rahil (gray beard) who flied
the Firestar. Old Kolb never got concerned about
my crying and whining of aileron flutter until
Dick got into severe flutter at Sun and Fun
several years ago. Shortly thereafter, Kolb
designed, built and made available aileron counter
balance weights. First for the Firestar, then the
MK III. The counter balance weights I first
installed on my MK III were designed for the
Firestar, but worked splendidly on the MK III.
What a relief. Peaceful flight at last.
Will your Kolb go into aileron flutter? I don't
know, but I for one, would not gamble on it. When
severe flutter is encountered the control stick is
immediately snatched from your hand as it tried to
beat itself to death laterally swinging from stop
to stop. I am not sure what damage will occur if
throttle is not immediately closed to slow
airspeed and get the ailerons loaded up to stop
the flutter. Getting too old to gamble on
problems that might hurt my old bod, but not as
old as dirt, or Bob Noyer (my good buddy from
Winchester, VA).
Take care,
john h
Message 14
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
have wondered how that small steel prop on the 150 can produce enough thrust
to propel the 1600lb plane as compared to the, what seem to be tiny thin
blades on the warp?
That's easy! The amount of thrust is directly proportional to the amount in
the wallet.....:o))) Snuf
Do not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: special tap for mounting holes for Rotax gearbox? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
>
>
> I seem to remember vaguely that Richard or someone (sorry) recommended
> something I think was called a close tolerance tap for making the holes
for
Probably a bottoming tap. Makes full threads all the way to the end. No
taper..........Kirk
Do not archive
Message 16
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
At 10:07 AM 8/26/03 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Dwight.Kottke@hti.htch.com
>
>With the recent prop discussion, I have a question for all. At Oshkosh
>this year I bought a Warp Drive prop protractor (great tool). I put it on
>my Ivo and found the two tips to be 2.5 degrees off from each other. I
>then checked my old Tennessee wood prop and found the tips to be 2 degrees
>off. Is this common for tips to be different from each other?
>
>The Flying Farmer
>
>do not archive
Yes.
My old IVO (that used stacked shims) was bad to have the tips off from each
other.
Ended up making little shims that I would slide under the cams to get them
the same.
You could tell the difference in smoothness when they were correct.
My new IVO is behaving itself. (So far...)
(Now we wait for the enthusiasts for the competing brands to start crowing
that they don't have problems like that because of... <grin> )
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Message 17
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
Paul, if you can get that C-150 registered in experimental category you
can put any prop on it you want.....the manufacturers (Cessna, Piper, etc)
don't want to change things because: a- those old metal props will take
an awful amount of abuse and keep ticking and b- you would have to go
through a complete certification process for each model and make
composite. I always liked the Texas Taildragger conversion for the 150,
You could swing a biggie on that, just take off and land 3-point. -BB
do not archive
Paul Petty wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
>
>Thanks Guys,
>That's a lot of help. If you don't mind, could you clear up a question I have
about types of props. Why do GA planes such as the C-150 that I do my training
in use steel props and not composite ones like warp IVO ect... I often have wondered
how that small steel prop on the 150 can produce enough thrust to propel
the 1600lb plane as compared to the, what seem to be tiny thin blades on the
warp? And then there is the constant speed prop on the RV8. Wow that thing will
clean off a ramp in seconds.
>
>Thanking you all in advance.
>
>The Student
>
>pp
>do not archive
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> My new IVO is behaving itself. (So far...)
> (Now we wait for the enthusiasts for the competing brands to start crowing
> that they don't have problems like that because of... <grin> )
>
> Richard Pike
Richard/All:
Ain't crowing. Just stating facts. :-)
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Cleaning Up The FireFly Continues. |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderski" <swiderski@rocketjet.net>
Jack,
Several years back I read a study were they found that making the
trailing edges square, increased handling & cut drag. They also said the
knife edge was not recommened. The squared edge needed to be something like
1/4" or slightly less. I don't remember that detail. I'll see if I saved
the article.
Richard Swiderski
> >
> >One thought - Having read a bit on flutter, there is a possibility that
> >taking the trailing edges on the ailerons to a knife edge may make them
> >more flutter prone. Plus, you will inevitably be adding a tad more weight
> >to the aileron trailing edges.
>
>
Message 20
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderski" <swiderski@rocketjet.net>
Dwight,
I have found that anything more than .5 degree difference makes a
noticable effect on performance. Richard Swiderski
> With the recent prop discussion, I have a question for all. At Oshkosh
> this year I bought a Warp Drive prop protractor (great tool). I put it on
> my Ivo and found the two tips to be 2.5 degrees off from each other. I
> then checked my old Tennessee wood prop and found the tips to be 2 degrees
> off. Is this common for tips to be different from each other?
Message 21
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
You could tell the difference in smoothness when they were correct.
> My new IVO is behaving itself. (So far...)
Speaking of smoothness. It appears that the reduction of drag can do more
for a Kolb than big horsepower and mighty props. ;o) Kirk
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: special tap for mounting holes for Rotax gearbox? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderski" <swiderski@rocketjet.net>
Jim,
That was me. I didn't know different tolerences were an option when
buying taps. I used a standard tap for my 1st hole when converting a SeaDoo
587 to a aviation 582. It was not acceptable, much too loose. My machinist
buddy ordered me a closer tolerance starting & bottom tap & it was perfect.
The tap was a Regal 8 X 1.25 D3. It has 1E08 on it as well.
Richard Swiderski
> I seem to remember vaguely that Richard or someone (sorry) recommended
> something I think was called a close tolerance tap for making the holes
for
> mounting a gearbox to an engine which was not already threaded for a
> gearbox. Is this ringing anyone's memory bell? I am about to tap the
> holes to mount a "C" box to a 6061 T651 plate, 0.65" thick, for "C" box
> mounting.
>
> Jim Gerken
>
>
Message 23
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> Speaking of smoothness. It appears that the reduction of drag can do more
> for a Kolb than big horsepower and mighty props. ;o) Kirk
Snuffy/All:
After everything else on the Kolb is cleaned up to
the 'enth degree, what are you going to do to the
wing? I, personally, do not think you will ever
get much past 90 mph normal cruise for a MK III
with the current wing. I do not believe you can
have your cake and eat it too. If you want high
lift, low stall, extremely good STOL
characteristics, you will not also have a speed
demon. On the other hand, if you have a fast
wing, probably will not have good slow speed high
lift capability.
My thoughts only. Nothing to back them up except
the performance of the Kolb aircraft I have been
flying.
Take care,
john h
Message 24
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
> After everything else on the Kolb is cleaned up to
> the 'enth degree, what are you going to do to the
> wing?
At least one guy cleaned it all up purdy then added some wing. Can get over
90mph with 65hp he says. Think he gets around 1000 fpm climb also. No
reason not believe him. He has always struck me as honest as the day is
long. Gives me reason to believe a 60hp 4 stroke with super fuel economy
can give me a cruise of 70-75 without breathing too hard. Economy and cost
is what appeals to me. Kirk
Do not archive
Message 25
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> At least one guy cleaned it all up purdy then added some wing.
Kirk
Kirk/All:
Can you explain "then added some wing." please?
I don't think I follow what you are saying.
90 mph should be standard top speed for a 65 hp MK
III.
1,000 FPM should be no sweat on 65 hp.
I think I need to explain a few things about my
airplane. I started with a 582. It flew a few
MPH shy of what it does now with 95 hp. I know,
the 912S is rated at 100 hp, but if it is propped
for 5,500 rpm, that is 95 hp max continuous power.
The increases in hp gave me the capability to
climb faster with heavier loads possibly. But top
speed has hovered around 95 mph. Seems to be a
brick wall about this speed range in the MK III.
No being educated in the "aeronautical
engineering" department, my guess is wing design
along with all the other parasitic drag inherent
in the MK III.
Cruise speed was about 80 mph with 582, 85 mph
with 912, and 85 to 90 mph with the 912S. That
little bit of increase in cruise cost me about one
gph. Is it worth it? Yes, especially when you
throw in the increase in reliability over the
first generation 912 and increased climb
performance. But I lose out in spark plug
replacement which is 100 hours rather than 200
hours with the 912. Oh well, can't have
everything. Gain something here, lose it over there.
Thinking out loud again,
john h
do not archive
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Cleaning Up The FireFly Continues. |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "CRAIG M NELSON" <vitalfx0@msn.com>
Jack,
glass air craft not only have a square trailing edge but they flair slightly 1/2
in. to/8 in. to have the air leave the surface clean like a small spoiler. Increases
efficiency of the wing, reduces drag ,and increases speed. I just talked
to the guys at phoenix composites about this a few weeks ago, when I noticed
the unusual trailing edge on several planes they are building.
uncle Craig
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Swiderski
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Cleaning Up The FireFly Continues.
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderski" <swiderski@rocketjet.net>
Jack,
Several years back I read a study were they found that making the
trailing edges square, increased handling & cut drag. They also said the
knife edge was not recommened. The squared edge needed to be something like
1/4" or slightly less. I don't remember that detail. I'll see if I saved
the article.
Richard Swiderski
> >
> >One thought - Having read a bit on flutter, there is a possibility that
> >taking the trailing edges on the ailerons to a knife edge may make them
> >more flutter prone. Plus, you will inevitably be adding a tad more weight
> >to the aileron trailing edges.
>
>
Message 27
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
> Kirk
>
>
> Can you explain "then added some wing." please?
John,
He turned the Mark 3 into a parasol. The center section now has air
flowing under it creating more lift and drag as far as the total wing drag
goes. But less overall drag and better air flow to the prop. Kirk
Message 28
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
>
>
>
>>
>>
> I do not believe you can
>have your cake and eat it too.
>
>Not many exceptions to that rule, but Earl Luce's (Wittman)
>
Buttercup is outstanding, check out the speed range on that marvelous
re-created
antique. -Actually has flaps that pop out in the front of the wing.
Can't accurately
call them slots OR slats. The old Bellanca Cruisaire had a very slow
landing
speed and 150 mph cruise but no doubt couldn't climb like a Kolb. Leading
edge slots could very easily be incorporated into a Kolb wing for a better
cruise -BB
do not archive
>
>
>
>
Message 29
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
Kolbers,
Well folks just polished off a ribeye and it's off to tha shop for some R&D on
tha HD. Engineer buddy is coming over tonight to lay out the plans for the new
redrive. Will keep ya posted...
pp
do not archive
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Cleaning Up The FireFly Continues. |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
I never knew why they were shaped that way...got a degree in areonautical
engineering and they never told me in school ( that i remember)...but I know
that several GA types have a "bead" on the trailing edge of the control
surfaces, making them actually a shade fatter right along the edge. Also I
have seen some control surfaces with built in, notched out trim tabs, where
the tabs show this "bead"...and the control surface did not..making them
pretty obvious because they didnt match. This little question has always
made me wonder, I'm sure there is a simple answer, but I never have heard
what it is. Do ya reckon it was so they wouldnt dent so easy?????......hehe
OH ya..guess what men....The FlagFly won "Best of Show " at her 1st
flyin!!..88 registered birds!!!!
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Don Gherardini-
FireFly 098
Message 31
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderski" <swiderski@rocketjet.net>
Bob,
I believe the old Cruisemaster had a climb rate of 1000fpm. Both of
your examples are the same two most extraordinary planes that stick out in
my mind as well. ...Richard Swiderski
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bean" <slyck@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Props
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> > I do not believe you can
> >have your cake and eat it too.
> >
> >Not many exceptions to that rule, but Earl Luce's (Wittman)
> >
> Buttercup is outstanding, check out the speed range on that marvelous
> re-created
> antique. -Actually has flaps that pop out in the front of the wing.
> Can't accurately
> call them slots OR slats. The old Bellanca Cruisaire had a very slow
> landing
> speed and 150 mph cruise but no doubt couldn't climb like a Kolb. Leading
> edge slots could very easily be incorporated into a Kolb wing for a better
> cruise -BB
> do not archive
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Cleaning Up The FireFly Continues. |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
Craig,
Are we talking reflex the trailing edge up a little?
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
At 06:15 PM 8/26/03 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "CRAIG M NELSON" <vitalfx0@msn.com>
>
>Jack,
>glass air craft not only have a square trailing edge but they flair slightly 1/2
in. to/8 in. to have the air leave the surface clean like a small spoiler.
Increases efficiency of the wing, reduces drag ,and increases speed. I just talked
to the guys at phoenix composites about this a few weeks ago, when I noticed
the unusual trailing edge on several planes they are building.
>uncle Craig
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Richard Swiderski
>To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Cleaning Up The FireFly Continues.
>
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderski" <swiderski@rocketjet.net>
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
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