---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/17/03: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:30 AM - Re: 2 Cycle Engine Oils (Jim) 2. 05:15 AM - Re: insufficient octane (Richard Pike) 3. 05:55 AM - 2 cycle oil (Jim Gerken) 4. 07:31 AM - Re: Re: insufficient octane (Joe Allman) 5. 07:48 AM - Re: Fly-in campout: Oct. 20, 2003 (Kirk Smith) 6. 08:34 AM - Re: 3 mods (bryan green) 7. 09:19 AM - Re: Re: insufficient octane- alcohol (Daryl Hegyi) 8. 09:33 AM - 912 oil (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com) 9. 11:06 AM - Re: Re: insufficient octane (Richard Pike) 10. 12:30 PM - Re: 912 oil (John Hauck) 11. 12:50 PM - Re: 912 oil (J.D. Stewart) 12. 01:40 PM - Re: 912 oil (John Hauck) 13. 04:39 PM - Harley Davidson engine (DSmald@aol.com) 14. 05:07 PM - Re: Re: insufficient octane (John Cooley) 15. 05:07 PM - kolb list X-Planes Anyone have a Kolb ??? (BMWBikeCrz@aol.com) 16. 05:34 PM - Firestar (Dallas Shepherd) 17. 06:22 PM - Air map 100 (BMWBikeCrz@aol.com) 18. 06:25 PM - Re: 2 Cycle Engine Oils (Don Gherardini) 19. 06:38 PM - Re: First Firestar Flight (Gary robert voigt) 20. 06:41 PM - Re: Air map 100 (Robert Laird) 21. 06:52 PM - [QT]Fabric Rivet Size (george murphy) 22. 07:11 PM - Re: Re: insufficient octane- alcohol (Daryl Hegyi) 23. 07:11 PM - Re: [QT]Fabric Rivet Size (John Hauck) 24. 07:16 PM - Re: Air map 100 () 25. 08:43 PM - Re: Air map 100 (Robert Laird) 26. 09:50 PM - Re: kolb list X-Planes Anyone have a Kolb ??? (Christopher J Armstrong) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:30:18 AM PST US From: "Jim" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 Cycle Engine Oils --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim" Richard/others What problems can occur by using 87 instead of 91 octane with a 532? Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Pike" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 Cycle Engine Oils > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike > > I ran it one time in mine with no problems either, > but I didn't make a habit out of it. > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > do not archive > > At 05:15 PM 9/16/03 -0700, you wrote: > > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim" > > > >Richard, > > > >I have been using 87 octane in my 532 with no problems. > > > >Jim > >Mark III > >Charlotte, NC > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Richard Pike" > >To: > >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 Cycle Engine Oils > > > > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike > > > > > > Correction: not all Rotax two strokes tolerate 87 octane. > > > The 532 requires 91.5 octane minimum. > > > > > > Richard Pike > > > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:43 AM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Kolb-List: Re: insufficient octane --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike The biggest problem would be spark knock, which can damage your engine. Also, 87 octane gas burns hotter than 93 octane gas. If your ignition timing was retarded by a couple degrees, then the 532 would probably tolerate the lower octane without knocking, but that causes a loss of power. For an in depth look at the subject, try http://www.dynopower.freeserve.co.uk/nitrous_oxide/fuels_detonation_preignit ion.htm Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) At 07:34 AM 9/17/03 -0700, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim" > >Richard/others > >What problems can occur by using 87 instead of 91 octane with a 532? > >Jim ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:40 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: 2 cycle oil From: Jim Gerken 09/17/2003 07:55:18 AM --> Kolb-List message posted by: Jim Gerken >Time: 12:38:32 PM PST US >From: "Harry Wingert" >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 Cycle Engine Oils >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Harry Wingert" >Hello Jim, >I have been using AmsOil for over 15 years. First in a Kowsaki on my >Phantom Ultralight. I mixed an 8 oz. bottle to 6 gal. of gas. That is a >little less than the 100/1 mixture recommended. I never had a problem and >flew it for about 200 hours before selling it. I now have a MKIII 582 and >am using the AmsOil 2000 racing oil. With the oil injected, I don't have to >mix it anymore. I recommend AmsOil to all my flying friends in the Omaha >area. A couple of PPG flyers are also using it and have had no problems at >all. It's not cheap but when it comes to oil and other maintenance that >isn't my main concern. >Hope this helps. >Regards, >Harry Wingert Harry, how many hours do you have on your 582 using Amsoil? Just curious 'cause I coudn't get past about 100 hours using Amsoil in a 1997 582 on a Mkiii, due to buildup sticking the lower rings tight. At 118 hours, a tear down revealed two stuck rings that no available solvent could soften, so they were pryed out and replaced. That was with injection system operational. Next 70 hours was using premix (injex removed), and using their 100:1 product. Same results, new lower rings were again needed. Amsoil technical personell were contacted and could not help nor suggest a solvent. Solvents tried included carb cleaner, dip-can engine cleaner (from Napa, label suggested dipping for an hour, I progressively soaked for up to a week with no softening), straight MEK, Lacquer thinner, and of course Seafoam soak. BTW, contrary to popular mis-belief, the lower rings could not be inspected by looking through the exhaust port. They were always stuck first and worst on the intake side. Other carbon in the chamber and on the piston did not exceed 0.020" thickness. Rotax recommends inspection at 50 hours, I would take this recommendation seriously if I was still running a 2 stroke. AND, compression still measured 135 lbs per cylinder when rings were stuck their worst. I was very tempted to pull out the lower rings and not replace them. The top ring was doing all the work anyway. Details: Rotax dual radiator, run 160 degrees with thermostat. Jetting was always done to attempt to keep temps as high as possible without exceeding 1200 EGT. Fuel was always 89 octane Amoco, octane chosen to compensate for octane loss during storage after mixing with oil (storage in sealed steel drum, for as much as three weeks from purchase and mix date, then was run through my pickup and fresh obtained, records were kept to ensure no fuel older than three weeks was run) . No performance issues were ever experienced, no lack of power even when lower rings were completely stuck and leaking, no misses, no pre-ignition, no engine outs. I don't have any answers, only this experience. In the past, full sythetics have served me well, even in two strokes. I think that in the smaller engines that get run real hard all the time, they stay clean. But the bigger engines probably get throttled back enough to build up. Again, only theories, and everybody has an opinion. Good luck. Jim Gerken ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:25 AM PST US From: "Joe Allman" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: insufficient octane --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Joe Allman" It's been my experience 2 strokes run hotter on higher octanes. My old Kaw 440 ran hot on 93 and ran significantly cooler on 87. It was explained to me that the industry raises the octane levels with alcohol. Hence the hotter temps. I can recall looking at one website that proposed there was enough alcohol in 93 octane pump gas to suspend a teaspoon of water. Maybe that's why you never hear of water in autos anymore???? Some folks believe that the octane level in gas stored in plastic decreases during storage. (as little as 2 weeks). I'm not sure if this is true but it makes me wonder about starting out at the minimums. I flow both-just my opinions, Joe -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Richard Pike Subject: Kolb-List: Re: insufficient octane --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike The biggest problem would be spark knock, which can damage your engine. Also, 87 octane gas burns hotter than 93 octane gas. If your ignition timing was retarded by a couple degrees, then the 532 would probably tolerate the lower octane without knocking, but that causes a loss of power. For an in depth look at the subject, try http://www.dynopower.freeserve.co.uk/nitrous_oxide/fuels_detonation_preignit ion.htm Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) At 07:34 AM 9/17/03 -0700, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim" > >Richard/others > >What problems can occur by using 87 instead of 91 octane with a 532? > >Jim ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:05 AM PST US From: "Kirk Smith" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fly-in campout: Oct. 20, 2003 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" Subject line should read Sept 20. Kirk Do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:49 AM PST US From: "bryan green" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 3 mods --> Kolb-List message posted by: "bryan green" Thanks for the info Woody I believe all of these will help me out since I store mine in a trailer. Bryan Green (Elgin SC) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Woody" Subject: Kolb-List: 3 mods > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Woody" > > > To the new builders and some of the old ones. There are 3 modifications I > think should be included on each new Kolb built and the old ones > retrofitted. These are no cost or low cost mods that greatly improve our > planes > Padre Pikes idea about moving the aileron rods inward by drilling new > holes in the torque tube bracket. > Rick Neilson has a great way of attaching his gap seal. He uses a slightly > longer bolt on the universal joint on the wing fold pivot. These bolts > protude up through the rear of the gap seal and a wing nut and safety pin > hold it all together. > I hold my tail wires to the bottom post with clevises. The tangs are > bolted permanently to the rudder post. It is a lot easier than trying to > screw that wing nut on while it tightens the tail cables. > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:19:25 AM PST US From: "Daryl Hegyi" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: insufficient octane- alcohol --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Daryl Hegyi" Some manufacturers do use alcohol to raise octane levels. I use Esso or Shell exclusively (here in Canada) . To check for alcohol, use this technique: Take a small glass bottle (jar or juice bottle) and make a mark about 1/3 from the bottom. Fill to the line with water. Then fill the bottle (not quite to the top) with suspect gasoline, close the lid, and shake vigorously. Allow to settle, and examine the water level. If there was alcohol in the gas, the water level will now be above the mark, because the alcohol is now disolved in the water instead of the gas. regards, Daryl Hegyi (Kolb Twinstar Mk II.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Allman" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: insufficient octane > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Joe Allman" > > It's been my experience 2 strokes run hotter on higher octanes. > > My old Kaw 440 ran hot on 93 and ran significantly cooler on 87. > > It was explained to me that the industry raises the octane levels with > alcohol. Hence the hotter temps. I can recall looking at one website that > proposed there was enough alcohol in 93 octane pump gas to suspend a > teaspoon of water. Maybe that's why you never hear of water in autos > anymore???? > > Some folks believe that the octane level in gas stored in plastic decreases > during storage. (as little as 2 weeks). I'm not sure if this is true but > it makes me wonder about starting out at the minimums. > > I flow both-just my opinions, > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Richard Pike > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: insufficient octane > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike > > The biggest problem would be spark knock, which can damage your engine. > Also, 87 octane gas burns hotter than 93 octane gas. > If your ignition timing was retarded by a couple degrees, then the 532 > would probably tolerate the lower octane without knocking, but that causes > a loss of power. > For an in depth look at the subject, try > http://www.dynopower.freeserve.co.uk/nitrous_oxide/fuels_detonation_preignit > ion.htm > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > At 07:34 AM 9/17/03 -0700, you wrote: > > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim" > > > >Richard/others > > > >What problems can occur by using 87 instead of 91 octane with a 532? > > > >Jim > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:33:32 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: 912 oil From: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com 09/17/2003 12:33:23 PM --> Kolb-List message posted by: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com John H. and others: Im sure you knew this already, but it was not mentioned in your post so......... According to Rotax, use of full synthetic oil in combination with 100LL fuel can result in buildup of lead over time. Given your long cross-country flights, I assume you use a fair amount of 100LL, so you may want to consider a synthetic/petroleum blend. Lead buildup is apparently not an issue when using a petroleum based oil. Im also curious about your recent switch to the larger starter. Were you experiencing the hard starting problems that some have with the 912S, or just being proactive? regards, Erich Weaver ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:06:24 AM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: insufficient octane --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike Back in the late 70's Dirt Bike magazine ran an article on different gas brands and octanes, and Amoco Premium ran the coolest, don't remember what was hottest, but regular typically ran hotter than premium. I do know that my Rotax 277 would foul the plugs with lead balls on 87 octane leaded but run smooth and behave itself on Amoco premium or 100LL. Not sure why. It is very likely that if the octane in a gasoline was raised with alcohol that your EGT's would go up. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) At 10:31 AM 9/17/03 -0400, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Joe Allman" > >It's been my experience 2 strokes run hotter on higher octanes. > >My old Kaw 440 ran hot on 93 and ran significantly cooler on 87. > >It was explained to me that the industry raises the octane levels with >alcohol. Hence the hotter temps. I can recall looking at one website that >proposed there was enough alcohol in 93 octane pump gas to suspend a >teaspoon of water. Maybe that's why you never hear of water in autos >anymore???? > >Some folks believe that the octane level in gas stored in plastic decreases >during storage. (as little as 2 weeks). I'm not sure if this is true but >it makes me wonder about starting out at the minimums. > >I flow both-just my opinions, > >Joe ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:30:18 PM PST US From: John Hauck Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 912 oil --> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck Erich/All: I was aware of the Rotax recommendation to run semi-synthetic oil when operating on 100LL. I chose to run full synthetic based on operating temps. Also on using Alcore TCP additive to scavenge the lead out of the engine. I also change the oil more often than required by the book. Yes, on long cross country flight I use 100LL fuel exclusively, unless someone happens along with a can of auto fuel. The last several cross country flights I took advantage of MOGAS available at some fields, 87 octane. If I have 10 gal of 100LL in the tank, I do a little math, and add the 87 octane mogas until I get close to my minimum of 91 octane. I haven't had any problems doing this and it saves a little money in the long run. The upgrade to a heavy duty starter will assist the 912S get up to speed sooner and through the rpm range that experiences gear box chatter on start up. It is something Rotax is doing for us guys that got earlier 912S model engines. All new 912S engines come with the heavy duty starter and the slip clutch in place of the spring loaded dogs for torsion vibration dampening. I am waiting on the parts to come in to upgrade my 912S to current specs. The starter is $200.00 plus my old starter, and the slip clutch is $400.00. If the upgrades were not available at the reduced prices, I would probably live without them. I am not having that much problem, only occasionally. However, it should increase the longevity of the 912S and pay for the upgrades in the long run. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:50:48 PM PST US From: "J.D. Stewart" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: 912 oil --> Kolb-List message posted by: "J.D. Stewart" You will love the new starter/clutch combo. I got one of the first engines with them on, and the difference is like night and day when compared to other planes with the older 912S. Mine fires instantly, with no chatter. J.D. Stewart UltraFun AirSports http://www.ultrafunairsports.com FlyChallenger E-mail list and Website Administrator http://challenger.inebraska.com TitanAircraft e-mail list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Titanaircraft/ > > The upgrade to a heavy duty starter will assist the 912S get > up to speed sooner and through the rpm range that > experiences gear box chatter on start up. It is something > Rotax is doing for us guys that got earlier 912S model > engines. All new 912S engines come with the heavy duty > starter and the slip clutch in place of the spring loaded > dogs for torsion vibration dampening. I am waiting on the > parts to come in to upgrade my 912S to current specs. The > starter is $200.00 plus my old starter, and the slip clutch > is $400.00. If the upgrades were not available at the > reduced prices, I would probably live without them. I am > not having that much problem, only occasionally. However, > it should increase the longevity of the 912S and pay for the > upgrades in the long run. > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:40:25 PM PST US From: John Hauck Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 912 oil --> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck > You will love the new starter/clutch combo. > J.D. Stewart Thanks JD/All: Sometimes it is hard to commit $600.00 to something and not "really" know if it is going to worth it or not. Thanks again, john h DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:30 PM PST US From: DSmald@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: Harley Davidson engine NO_REAL_NAME@matronics.com --> Kolb-List message posted by: DSmald@aol.com group: Someone may have allready mentioned this, I do not read the list as religiously as I should, but I found this interesting, a wright flyer replica with a harley engine. I thought it was interesting, as someone onlist was considering a harley engine. http://wrightflyer.usurf.usu.edu/ Darren Smalec, FS1, 2- strokin' ,central MI. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:34 PM PST US From: "John Cooley" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: insufficient octane --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Cooley" "Snip" -------Original Message------- From: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: insufficient octane It was explained to me that the industry raises the octane levels with alcohol. Hence the hotter temps. I can recall looking at one website that proposed there was enough alcohol in 93 octane pump gas to suspend a teaspoon of water. Maybe that's why you never hear of water in autos anymore???? "End snip" Hi Joe/Gang, I work in the Blending and Shipping section of a 325,000 barrel per day Chevron oil refinery in south Mississippi. One of the main things we do is blend gasoline. I can't speak for all brands but can tell you positively that we do not use any alcohol in any of our gasoline. We blend 93 supreme and 87 octane and use the two mixed at the proper ratio to make 89 octane midgrade. We also blend 100/130 avgas and a grade of gas known as ULCQ that has to meet certain government specifications and is used by Detroit for mileage ratings. We load thousands of barrels per day on barges, ships and trucks. Just because you buy Exxon, Shell or whatever it doesn't mean that it was blended in said refinery. We sell gas to many different brands including some of the ones mentioned above, who then sells it as their brand The main difference is that it has that companies particular brand of detergent in the gas and meets said companies specs and all companies have to meet certain specs at dictated by ASTM and API. We have two other brands of detergent other than our own that we inject into the gas as it's being loaded onto the tank trucks. I think alcohol is used more in the west than anywhere else but don't know the statistics. There was a big discussion over this a while back. I searched the archives and am copying a reply I made to a similar question awhile back. Here it is........... All gasoline has to meet a recognized set of standards. These are regulated by API (American Petroleum Institute) see this link http://api-ec.api.org/aboutapi/index.cfm?bitmask=001010001000000000 and ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials) Most of the current testing methods in use have been developed by ASTM. Check this link for more info http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/ABOUT/aboutASTM.html?L+mystore+elby 7771+1042674481 The recipes are not mandated. Each company can use whatever recipe they choose as long as the finished product meets the industry standard specs. These "recipes" will vary depending on the type of crude oils being distilled and the type of "reforming" processes used to make higher quality/octane components. We sample our component rundown tanks on a regular basis and the info is feed into a computer program. When we get ready to blend for example a blend of 93 octane supreme then the required info is fed into the computer system and based on the components available a recipe is developed. Some of the criteria that the computer program uses to determine the recipe is also determined by the time of year and the RVP requirements (Reid Vapor Pressure) for the season. We make gasoline with 5 different RVP values depending on the time of season and the place that the fuel is going. We make a special low vapor pressure gasoline for the Atlanta area in the summer and the other grades are known as summer grade, intermediate grade, transition grade and winter grade RVP. The major difference in these fuels are the vapor pressure only. We have cutoff dates that we must meet when selling these various grades of gasoline. In other words after a certain date we can no longer sell winter grade gas. It has to be transition grade and so on. Of course summer grade has the lowest RVP value because of the season and so forth. Most of our fuel either goes to the Florida panhandle, Tampa, Port Everglades area via barges and ships and up the east coast via pipeline. Our average barrels per day of gasoline blended is 129,000 BPD. The additive packages are formulated by the major players making gas. They are primary a cleaner for fuel injectors etc. I don't know the particulars of getting it approved for use but am sure that it has to be approved by a governing body. The Chevron additive is know as "Techron". I don't know what Exxon, Shell etc call theirs. Techron is injected into the gas as it's loaded at our truck rack for the local market. We also have Exxon's additive for trucks picking up gas to go to the Exxon stations and a generic additive for the other brands. This is handled by the Marketing folks, which is a separate organization within the Chevron/Texaco refining company. No additive is put into the fuel going on ships and barges or up the pipeline system. This is done later on at the final destination. Again I will repeat what I said in my first post about gasoline. I don't want people getting mad because they are buying Exxon gas that may have actually been blended in a Chevron refinery. All gasoline has to meet minimum industry requirements. The requirement is the same for Exxon as it is for Chevron, Shell etc. If you are buying Exxon you are still getting their additive package. I will add this bit of info to chew on. Some companies blend gasoline to meet the minimum requirement. If it is supposed to be 93 octane supreme, then the gas is blended to meet the 93 octane minimum requirement. If the octane is 93.9 then that is known as "give-away" or blending "fat" because you have to use higher quality/octane components which of course are more valuable. If you want the most profit possible and you have the equipment to control with then it makes sense to try to hit the 93 minimum as close as possible. Some companies will blend gasoline straight onto a ship and therefore are willing to have some "give-away" to make sure it is on-test. I think this is the reason some people say a particular brand of gas runs better than another. The reformulated gas referred to in Don's post just has to meet more stringent guidelines as I understand it. I believe this is currently for the California market. We don't make reformulated gas at this time or any gas with alcohol in it. Ok guys, as Paul Petty asked me in an earlier post, I'm out of gas. Take Care, John Cooley ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:55 PM PST US From: BMWBikeCrz@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: kolb list X-Planes Anyone have a Kolb ??? HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD@matronics.com, HTML_FONT_FACE_ODD@matronics.com, HTML_MESSAGE@matronics.com, MIME_LONG_LINE_QP@matronics.com, NO_REAL_NAME@matronics.com --> Kolb-List message posted by: BMWBikeCrz@aol.com I have X-Plane 7 Has anyone built a kolb for this sim ? Dave ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:01 PM PST US From: "Dallas Shepherd" Subject: Kolb-List: Firestar --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dallas Shepherd" Kolbers: I have a friend looking at a Firestar with a Rotax 503 engine and it needs decarbed. Have any of you an idea how much this cost to have it done. It has 244 hours on it. I have no idea of what kind of care its had, but I have talked to the owner and seen the plane and it looks like he takes pretty good care of things. He has moved here from Arizona. Too many thermos I guess. Dallas Shepherd Norfork, Arkansas Do not archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:32 PM PST US From: BMWBikeCrz@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: Air map 100 --> Kolb-List message posted by: BMWBikeCrz@aol.com Anyone using a airmap100 ? ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:52 PM PST US From: "Don Gherardini" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 Cycle Engine Oils --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" Jim/Gang, Jeez..leave on biz fer a few days and it takes all day to catch up in here! You guys have struck a nerve that goes right to my heart, as earlier in my early carrer, I was a young engineer on an engine design team in sweden for a couple of years developing 2 stroke engines, (hope you guys wont hold that against me) and I would like to share some thoughts here on this subject. When an engine manufacturer makes a recommendation as to an oil mix ratio for a 2 cycle engine, here are the criteria we use. Volume of oil per revolution needed to lubricate all the parts...or one might say..the part that needs the most lubrication, which is almost always the cylinder wall/piston skirt. Todays bearings. both roller and ball need much less oil to keep the lubricated at the rpm levels we run than the skirt/wall film we need to keep the piston and cylinder wall from touching. Volume of oil in fuel mix at average air/fuel ratio of 27 to one (for a 2 stroke) this usually is an industry standard for most power with acceptable heat, according to the engine/cooling systems heat dissapating ability. Add a safety factor to compensate for adverse conditions..et.al.---lean condition...water...etc... now its pretty simple men...we have a VOLUME requirement....and we can figure out the volume of oil in the volume of fuel mixture that is going thru our engines PEtroleum based 2 stroke lube oil has lots of stuff in it...but generally only one for lubrication...this is called "bright stock"...the other stuff does other jobs....(STP is almost pure bright stock) now...SAE , ISO, JASO, and other standards outfits give the oil companies and engine manufacturers some common ground to work from, and these really are the glue that makes the whole market work. You see if you make mix oil and put in more nright stock than the other guy then you might be able to say that you can run this oil in an engine that is designed for 50 to one..but you can run it at 100 to one with our oil. BEcause we have "better oil". Manufacturers do NOT design engines or even test them based on standards for these "other" oils. HOwever...an Aircooled 2 stroke is really only about 30 % air cooled....and 70% fuel cooled....HUH?....yes...the piston dissapates heat by 2 means in any engine...one way is by passing the heat to the cylinder wall, and the other is by being sprayed by the cold fuel mixture...which takes out MUCH more heat on a 2 stroke because it hits both sides..the bottom first..then the top. To make matters more complicated, gasoline has a better cooling effect than oil...so PURE gas cools better than mixed gas, and the MORE oil in the mixture the less heat is dissapated by the mixture. I used to give service meetings in the USA after coming back and I always did a demonstration using a chainsaw and 3 cans of fuel...one at 32:1, one at 40:1, and one at 50: 1 fuel mixtures in each can. With a thermocouple under the plug , i would start and run the saw ( which was designed for 50:1) and get it up to max temps....then shut it down, drain the gas, and fill it up, with the next ratio...always using the 50 :1 first. I never did tire of watching the eyes of all those "expert " mechanics as the temps always were higher on the heavier oil mixtures........2 factors were at work here...but that is for another discussion...suffice it to say....Thats just how it is! I am NOT recommending 100 to one...75:1 or any other ratio than what the design team who created the engine designated. OH boy...now i'm really mixed up right?.... lets get back to the engine manufacturers designated ratio, and how we pick that ratio. A manufacturer that must sell in a world market faces the biggest problem ...different standards in different countries being the biggest, but since the USA is the biggest market for just about anything...we look at what the generally accepted standards of available oil is in the USA and design and test our engines with oil that meets these standards and reccomend a ratio that will insure the volume of lubricating oil is sufficient. Have you ever seen an owners manual that recommends an oil by brand?....only if that company buys and bottles oil under their name...and most dont. So we manufacturers recommend a STANDARD.....usually by an SAE number...or an ISO number...or JASO if you are in japan or the east..Due to lawsuits in the USA, manufacturers have found that you CANNOT be absolved of warranty responsibility in the USA if a engine owner uses an oil that meets the same standard as the brand you recommended in your published material....so we all quit recommending oil by brand. I wont even begin to attempt to say here what oil a fella ought to use by brand....but I will say that your engine was designed to run a specific oil ratio by the design team that developed the engine...and that VOLUME requirement is what you should follow. I dont want to get into any discussion about 100 to one ratios and such....only to mention that remember this also...a carb is a vacumm operated piece of machinery, andthe engine "sucks" the fuel thru the jets. A higher volume of oil in the mix gives us a higher viscosity, and it does not "suck " as much of this mix as it does a lesser ratio, so if you dont re-adjust your carb jet when changing ratios, you could be in for trouble...either from a lean condition....or from a rich condition.....they both will shorten the life of your engine....one quickly....and one a little more slowly. Jim, use a big name, high quality oil and be sure it fullfills the ISO minimums that the engine manufacturer says to use. dont mix it any higher ...or lesser of a ratio than they say either.... Don Gherardini Sales / Engineering dept. American Honda Engines Power Equipment Company 800-626-7326 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:48 PM PST US From: "Gary robert voigt" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: First Firestar Flight --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Gary robert voigt" Jim, congrats on the first flight and i'm glad everything went well..... btw my mother was born in Viroqua and i'm very familar with that area. thanks, Gary r. voigt Excelsior, mn. "J.L.Turner" wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "J.L.Turner" > > Fellow Kolbers: > > Last week I posted an inquiry regarding whether I needed additional flight training to fly my Firestar 1. Although I had completed my private pilot 40 hours of classroom, 15 hours in a Cessna 172, 150+ hours in a powered parachute, and had my Basic Flight Instructor rating in Powered Parachutes, the previous owner insisted that the Kolb was difficult to fly and that I'd better take additional lessons. > > This evening I went back to the airport, rolled the Firestar out, and was prepared to once again just practice high speed taxi runs. This got old pretty quick! The 3 mph wind was coming right down runway two niner. So I completed a tax run back to the threshold of two niner, turned the nose around and pointed the nose into the breeze. One more check of my instruments, a scan around me for other aircraft and it was time to roll. Reading about frequent nose overs in Kolbs made me very hesitant, but I built speed up slowly, feeling the tail getting lighter and lighter. A quick glance to the airspeed indicator showed 25 mph and climbing. The Firestar was pointed perfectly straight and I poured the coals to the 377. Once I was certain I was past stall speed, I eased the stick back. WOW! Do these Kolbs climb like a rocket!!! The first inclination is to cut the throttle back. But I knew better and dropped the nose a tad and kept my airspeed at 55 mph. Once I'd gotten ! > to 1000' AGL, I leveled out and eased back on the throttle until I was maintaining 50 mph in level flight. For an hour straight I practiced turns and just got used to the responsive handling of the Kolb. You guys were right.....the Kolb scrubs off speed very fast and I consciously lowered the nose a little while in turns. > > Finally it was time to test my skills by seeing if I could set the traildragger down for the first time. Landing procedures I'd read on the list flooded through my head. I knew I was supposed to fly it to the ground and keep the speed up. I turned on my final for two niner, lowered the nose, and cut back a little on the power. I passed the runway threshold at about 75' AGL, but I knew I had about 3200' to eat up, if I had to. I kept the airspeed at about 40 mph, flew it to about 3' AGL, slowly cutting back the power, and then did a gentle flare, bringing the Kolb down for a perfect landing. > > So it was rewarding evening. Everything I'd heard about the Kolb was true....that it's a great little plane. The only thing I found was that I had to keep just a little left rudder into it at all times. Anybody else have this experience? Did you install a trim tab on the rudder? > > Thanks to all on the list who offered words of encouragement to me. I've enjoyed reading on the posts and hope to join the Kolb Caravan next year! > > Regards, > > Jim Turner > Viroqua, WI > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:07 PM PST US From: Robert Laird Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Air map 100 --> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Laird At 08:22 PM 9/17/2003, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: BMWBikeCrz@aol.com > >Anyone using a airmap100 ? Yup, been using it for a couple of years. -- Robert ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:22 PM PST US From: george murphy Subject: Kolb-List: [QT]Fabric Rivet Size tests=FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK, HTML_60_70@matronics.com, HTML_MESSAGE HTML_MESSAGE (0.1 points) BODY: HTML.included.in.message.FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK.Forged.mail.pretending.to.be.from.MS.Outlook@matronics.com (3.5 points) --> Kolb-List message posted by: george murphy I am trying to find a local source for Fabric Rivets and I think they are 1/8 in dia. with a 3/8 head but am not sure of the exact size. Does anyone know if this is the correct size? George Murphy / Old Firestar reconstruction / Alpine Al ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:30 PM PST US From: "Daryl Hegyi" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: insufficient octane- alcohol --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Daryl Hegyi" oops, this should read: > If there was alcohol in the gas, the water level will now be BELOW the mark, > because the water is now dissolved in the alcohol which is dissolved in the gas. regards, Daryl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daryl Hegyi" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: insufficient octane- alcohol > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Daryl Hegyi" > > Some manufacturers do use alcohol to raise octane levels. I use Esso or > Shell exclusively (here in Canada) . > > To check for alcohol, use this technique: > > Take a small glass bottle (jar or juice bottle) and make a mark about 1/3 > from the bottom. Fill to the line with water. Then fill the bottle (not > quite to the top) with suspect gasoline, close the lid, and shake > vigorously. Allow to settle, and examine the water level. > > If there was alcohol in the gas, the water level will now be above the mark, > because the alcohol is now disolved in the water instead of the gas. > > regards, > Daryl Hegyi (Kolb Twinstar Mk II.) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe Allman" > To: > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: insufficient octane > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Joe Allman" > > > > It's been my experience 2 strokes run hotter on higher octanes. > > > > My old Kaw 440 ran hot on 93 and ran significantly cooler on 87. > > > > It was explained to me that the industry raises the octane levels with > > alcohol. Hence the hotter temps. I can recall looking at one website > that > > proposed there was enough alcohol in 93 octane pump gas to suspend a > > teaspoon of water. Maybe that's why you never hear of water in autos > > anymore???? > > > > Some folks believe that the octane level in gas stored in plastic > decreases > > during storage. (as little as 2 weeks). I'm not sure if this is true but > > it makes me wonder about starting out at the minimums. > > > > I flow both-just my opinions, > > > > Joe > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Richard Pike > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: insufficient octane > > > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike > > > > The biggest problem would be spark knock, which can damage your engine. > > Also, 87 octane gas burns hotter than 93 octane gas. > > If your ignition timing was retarded by a couple degrees, then the 532 > > would probably tolerate the lower octane without knocking, but that causes > > a loss of power. > > For an in depth look at the subject, try > > > http://www.dynopower.freeserve.co.uk/nitrous_oxide/fuels_detonation_preignit > > ion.htm > > > > Richard Pike > > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > > > At 07:34 AM 9/17/03 -0700, you wrote: > > > > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim" > > > > > >Richard/others > > > > > >What problems can occur by using 87 instead of 91 octane with a 532? > > > > > >Jim > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:59 PM PST US From: John Hauck Subject: Re: Kolb-List: [QT]Fabric Rivet Size --> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck > I am trying to find a local source for Fabric Rivets > George Murphy / Old Firestar reconstruction / Alpine Al George/All: Recommend you stick with fabric rivets supplied through the Poly Fiber Dealers supply lines: Jim and Dondi Miller CALL TOLL FREE 1-877-877-3334 These folks will fix you up with the correct rivets and get them to you in a hurry. Looking forward to seeing them again at the Kolb Flyin in London, KY, next week. john h ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:19 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Air map 100 REFERENCES --> Kolb-List message posted by: > Anyone using a airmap100 ? Just bought one from Flight Essentials a couple weeks ago, seems like a good unit but I have not played with it much yet. They are really discounted right now. Denny Rowe ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:39 PM PST US From: Robert Laird Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Air map 100 --> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Laird At 09:17 PM 9/17/2003, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: > > > > Anyone using a airmap100 ? > >Just bought one from Flight Essentials a couple weeks ago, seems like a good >unit but I have not played with it much yet. >They are really discounted right now. They are discounted because the versions with the larger screens have just come out/are coming out. Still a terrific little GPS, even with the small screen. -- R ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:04 PM PST US From: "Christopher J Armstrong" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: kolb list X-Planes Anyone have a Kolb ??? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher J Armstrong" http://www.x-plane.org/ this place has 2000 planes for x-planes 6 and a growing number for 7 I am not sure if there is a kolb yet. I run 7.1 now and will probably make a firestar II for it some time. Only takes an hour to get a rough plane flying. Could spend hours making it look real nice. Topher -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BMWBikeCrz@aol.com HTML_FONT_COLOR_BLUE@matronics.com; HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD@matronics.com; HTML_FONT_FACE_ODD@matronics.com; HTML_MESSAGE@matronics.com; MIME_LONG_LINE_QP@matronics.com; NO_REAL_NAME@matronics.com Subject: Kolb-List: kolb list X-Planes Anyone have a Kolb ??? --> Kolb-List message posted by: BMWBikeCrz@aol.com I have X-Plane 7 Has anyone built a kolb for this sim ? Dave --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ---