Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:57 AM - Re: axle spacers (Daniel Walter)
2. 05:35 AM - Re: axle spacers (Bob Bean)
3. 06:00 AM - gear legs (ul15rhb@juno.com)
4. 07:29 AM - Electric screwdriver trim (Charlie & Meredith Blackwell)
5. 09:08 AM - Re: Vortex generators installed (jam'n)
6. 09:35 AM - gear legs (bryan green)
7. 09:50 AM - Re: Vortex generators installed (Christopher J Armstrong)
8. 11:16 AM - Re: 4130 Gear Legs ()
9. 01:19 PM - Vortex Generators (Rex Rodebush)
10. 01:33 PM - 4130 bent legs (Rex Rodebush)
11. 04:41 PM - 912S Upgrade (John Hauck)
12. 05:11 PM - Strobe light (Jimmy)
13. 06:54 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Don Gherardini)
14. 07:14 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Richard Pike)
15. 07:22 PM - Re: Strobe light (Richard Pike)
16. 07:48 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Richard Pike)
17. 07:57 PM - Re: 912S Upgrade (John Cooley)
18. 09:51 PM - Vortex generators pics (Richard Pike)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: axle spacers |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Daniel Walter" <worrybear@paonline.com>
I don't recomend any kind of wheel spacer if it will move the wheel out on
the axel. moving the wheel out will increase the moment (load) on the axel
and gear, The closer to the gear the wheel is the less the stress on the
gear and axel.
Dan Walter
Ultrastar Ul202
10DEW PA.
----- Original Message -----
From: <ul15rhb@juno.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: axle spacers
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: ul15rhb@juno.com
>
>
> What are you guys using for wheel spacers on the axle? Steel seems like
overkill and and weighs too much. I may have trouble finding thick-walled
aluminum to fit over the 5/8" axle. How about PVC tubing? Anyone using that?
>
> Ralph Burlingame
> Original Firestar
> installing new axles
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: axle spacers |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
-The spacers are necessary to properly locate the bearings....and make
the brakes
center on the discs. -BB do not archive
Daniel Walter wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Daniel Walter" <worrybear@paonline.com>
>
> I don't recomend any kind of wheel spacer if it will move the wheel out on
>the axel. moving the wheel out will increase the moment (load) on the axel
>and gear, The closer to the gear the wheel is the less the stress on the
>gear and axel.
>
>Dan Walter
>Ultrastar Ul202
>10DEW PA.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <ul15rhb@juno.com>
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Kolb-List: axle spacers
>
>
>
>
>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: ul15rhb@juno.com
>>
>>
>>What are you guys using for wheel spacers on the axle? Steel seems like
>>
>>
>overkill and and weighs too much. I may have trouble finding thick-walled
>aluminum to fit over the 5/8" axle. How about PVC tubing? Anyone using that?
>
>
>>Ralph Burlingame
>>Original Firestar
>>installing new axles
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: ul15rhb@juno.com
Dan,
I agree, but 2-1/2" further out on the axle may not amount to much moment and it
provides a wider stance to land the plane and keep it from tipping over in a
tight turn. The other gear legs were the 7075 aluminum ones that I have flown
off of for 16 years without any problems (without the sleeves in the sockets).
These same gear legs are the ones now used on the FireFly (1-1/8" at the top,
7/8" at the bottom). At the time, they were the TwinStar heavy duty legs the
old Kolb Company used.
The new Firestar's use 2-1/4" 7075.
Ralph
Original Firestar
16 years flying it
-- "Daniel Walter" <worrybear@paonline.com> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Daniel Walter" <worrybear@paonline.com>
I don't recomend any kind of wheel spacer if it will move the wheel out on
the axel. moving the wheel out will increase the moment (load) on the axel
and gear, The closer to the gear the wheel is the less the stress on the
gear and axel.
Dan Walter
Ultrastar Ul202
10DEW PA.
----- Original Message -----
From: <ul15rhb@juno.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: axle spacers
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: ul15rhb@juno.com
>
>
> What are you guys using for wheel spacers on the axle? Steel seems like
overkill and and weighs too much. I may have trouble finding thick-walled
aluminum to fit over the 5/8" axle. How about PVC tubing? Anyone using that?
>
> Ralph Burlingame
> Original Firestar
> installing new axles
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Electric screwdriver trim |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie & Meredith Blackwell <wozani@optonline.net>
Guys,
After getting back from vacation I was reading the old posts and came across
some references to using electric screwdriver motors as trim or flap actuators.
Like someone else wrote, there was an accident blamed on using them. Seems
like the gears in that particular one were plastic and broke or bent at a bad
angle for controlled flying. Maybe their trim tabs were too big to be overpowered
by hand control or it came at a bad time so there was no recovery room
or one flap was up and one down.....
If I find the report from whatever magazine it was in, I will post better information.
Until then I would recommend some extra inspection for safety sake
if yours has the plastic gears.
Charlie Blackwell, MKII 503
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex generators installed |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "jam'n" <jghunter@nol.net>
hi
thanks for the link to your VG build/install. presentation of it all was
very well done and informative, including the installs.
how do the VGs work? does the air get accelerated thru the shape of the
device itself, or thru the shape created between the two Vgs that get
installed side by side. the Vgs seem to slow the air (narrow front, wide
rear), while the shape between the two adjacent ones seems to 'funnel' the
air in to a higher velocity, ie higher pressure, higher speed, denser...
sortal like boyle's gas laws... with an attending increase in control
surface authority...
regards
jg
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Jack & Louise Hart" <jbhart@ldd.net>
> >To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vortex generators installed
> >
> >
> >> In my case the FireFly has 18 VG's on each wing. No way would I take
them
> >off. I can fly any time of the day through just about anything. Whoops! I
> >have been gone a few days and I am starting to ramble. If you are
> >interested, you can see them starting at:
> >>
> >> http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly17.html
> >>
>
>
> Jack & Louise Hart
> jbhart@ldd.net
>
>
> .
>
>
Message 6
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "bryan green" <lgreen1@sc.rr.com>
I feel like I am not getting my info across to you all.
I have done the designing and testing of 4130 gear on two
airplanes:
It got through to me John I intend to go with these on my plane if or when the
aluminum ones bend again.
Bryan Green Elgin SC
Firestar I 377 BRS
Message 7
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| Subject: | Vortex generators installed |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher J Armstrong" <tophera@centurytel.net>
The air gets slowed overall, the vg is just a little vane stuck out in
the wind creating drag after all. But the vortex generator generates a
vortex (duh) a little tornado that mixes high speed air above the wing
with the slower moving boundary layer air near the surface. This boasts
the boundary layer so it has enough energy to stay attached at a higher
angle of attack then it would otherwise, delaying separation and stall.
At high speed, low angle of attack, the vgs add drag slowing the plane
slightly. They still trip the boundary layer from laminar to turbulent,
but the fabric wings of a Kolb were already turbulent so the claims that
that might reduce drag like it does in some planes is not real likely.
Topher
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jam'n
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vortex generators installed
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "jam'n" <jghunter@nol.net>
hi
thanks for the link to your VG build/install. presentation of it all was
very well done and informative, including the installs.
how do the VGs work? does the air get accelerated thru the shape of the
device itself, or thru the shape created between the two Vgs that get
installed side by side. the Vgs seem to slow the air (narrow front, wide
rear), while the shape between the two adjacent ones seems to 'funnel'
the air in to a higher velocity, ie higher pressure, higher speed,
denser... sortal like boyle's gas laws... with an attending increase in
control surface authority...
regards
jg
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Jack & Louise Hart" <jbhart@ldd.net>
> >To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vortex generators installed
> >
> >
> >> In my case the FireFly has 18 VG's on each wing. No way would I
> >> take
them
> >off. I can fly any time of the day through just about anything.
> >Whoops! I have been gone a few days and I am starting to ramble. If
> >you are interested, you can see them starting at:
> >>
> >> http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly17.html
> >>
>
>
> Jack & Louise Hart
> jbhart@ldd.net
>
>
> .
>
>
==
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 4130 Gear Legs |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: <rowedl@highstream.net>
John H, wrote,
>
> Hi Don/All:
>
> Had a good trip.
>
> Left the Suzuki at home so I could take the mountain bikes.
> Couldn't take both, I discovered during the loading
> process. ;-)
> Ran out of time before I could visit with Denny Rowe near
> Pittsburgh, PA, but will catch him next time I fly up that
> way, possibly next Spring.
John,
Sorry we couldn't hook up, we'll hope to see you next Spring and do a little
formation Mk-3 flying. If I know you're coming I should be able to have an
extra dirt bike here for you so we can do a little off road riding also,
that will be a nice change from all the flying you'll be doing to get here.
Glad to hear you folks are home safe.
Denny Rowe, Mk-3 N616DR, Leechburg, PA. McVille Airport (P-37)
Do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Vortex Generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <rrodebush@tema.net>
Richard,
Did the wing angle at stall appear to increase? I'm setting my landing gear at
an angle similar to John Hauck's in order to try and get a 3-point stall landing.
So if I install VG's I may need allow for a possible change to a higher
stance?
Also, I checked the web page on the Super Cub and you're correct. The VG's are
more forward in front of the ailerons which they say enhances controllability
during stall. I'm guessing at full stall separation moves forward and occurs
before the inboard VG's. Moving the outboard VG's forward keeps the flow attached
to the ailerons at a high stall angle (Similar to wing twist). Does this
make sense to any of the aerodynamic gurus on the list?
Rex Rodebush
From: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net <mailto:rwpike@charter.net>>
Subject: Vortex Generators update - success!
Last week I put vortex generators on my MKIII and while it made things better,
it didn't make it stall noticeably slower. Discovered today it was because I didn't
have enough of them. I now have one on every rib, 28 per side with each
one having two vanes ala Howard Shackleford's general layout. Stall is at 21 indicated,
30 actual, that is 5 mph less than last week. No negative change in
stall behavior, it actually seems more docile than before. That may be because
I did the VG's in front of the ailerons a little different. The outboard 14 VG's
are staggered, one is back 9.5 inches from leading edge centerline, the next
is 11 inches, the next 9.5 inches, etc. The inboard 14 are all at 11 inches
back. Why did I do it that way? I saw a web page advertising STC'd VG's for a
Super Cub, and the VG's in front of the aileron were closer to the leading edge
than the ones on the rest of the wing, said it gave better aileron control
through the stall. They didn't say why it worked, just that it did. So I compromised,
and for whatever reason, it works real well.
Message 10
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <rrodebush@tema.net>
Thanks for the good information John. I was concerned that at the 48 Rc hardness
the leg would be too brittle. If you bent it 90 degrees without breaking you
can't ask for more ductility than that! (Tough way to test it though)
Rex Rodebush
"But heat treat it nice and hard, like 48 RC, and it becomes
extremely flexible, compared to its normalized state,
without becoming brittle. More good news is, at RC 48 the
4130 will still bend 90 deg without breaking. Ask me how I
know. I tested both left and right gear legs in an actual
extremely hard uncontrolled landing."
Message 11
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Hi All:
The 912S Rotax is shipped with a high output starter and a
slip clutch in the gearbox for torsional vibration
dampening. The older 912S engines had a smaller starter and
the cup spring loaded dogs for dampening.
Rotax has a deal to upgrade the older 912S engines. I took
advantage of it, or it took advantage of me, so tomorrow
morning before the sun comes up I will be flying down to
Lucedale, MS, to get the new starter and slip clutch
installed at South Mississippi Light Aircraft. JD Stewart
tells us that the upgrade is worth its weight in gold,
really smoothing out the old high compression power plant.
I am looking forward to the improvement.
The flight down (185 miles) and back (another 185 miles)
will be a good comparison between old and new. I haven't
changed anything recently, so should be able to pick up on
any increased vibration reduction during cruise flight. The
more powerful starter is supposed to help get the engine
turning faster at start up to get it through the "rough"
zone and into a smooth idle.
The extremely early takeoff is necessitated by much shorter
days than we have been having. Sunrise is at 0700 and
sunset is 1800. Travel and repair time will eat up my day.
Got to get home before it gets too dark or land at
Wetumpka Airport and hitch a ride 25 miles home.
I flew for the first time since returning from Kitty Hawk
and London. Been a month, but the 912S fired right up and
Miss P'fer flew great. I got an hour of beautiful autumn
afternoon flying. She'll be ready to go in the morning as
soon as I top of the fuel tank.
Anyone in the Lucedale area drop on in and sit a spell.
Take care,
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 12
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jimmy <jhankin@planters.net>
For those of you that have a strobe light on the rear of your ultralight, how did
you route the wire to the strobe?
Did you put the wire through the tube??
Do Not Archive
Jimmy Hankinson
912-863-7384
Rocky Ford, Ga. 30455
jhankin@planters.net
Kolb Firefly/447/240hrs
Local field, Pegasus/2000/Grass
Airport JYL/Sylvania, Ga.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Rex, here is a site i found while trying to Find you someplace with drawings
on just how a VG works. This site got me more excited than the one i was
looking for, not for its explaination of the principle....but for the fact
than Finally...somebody has come up with VG's for a resonable price...I will
likely NEVER make another !....50 polycarbonate VG's for 35 bucks!!!!
http://www.mywebco.com/cci/
IM still hunting for a site with the drawings odf the airflow
enhancement..//.....
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Don Gherardini-
FireFly 098
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
Yes, the angle at stall went up, and I can now land slower, but have not
yet had a chance to decide if it has a higher deck angle at touchdown. But
I suppose it might, and may need longer gear.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
At 04:22 PM 10/23/03 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <rrodebush@tema.net>
>
>
>Richard,
>
>Did the wing angle at stall appear to increase? I'm setting my landing
>gear at an angle similar to John Hauck's in order to try and get a 3-point
>stall landing. So if I install VG's I may need allow for a possible
>change to a higher stance?
>
>Also, I checked the web page on the Super Cub and you're correct. The
>VG's are more forward in front of the ailerons which they say enhances
>controllability during stall. I'm guessing at full stall separation moves
>forward and occurs before the inboard VG's. Moving the outboard VG's
>forward keeps the flow attached to the ailerons at a high stall
>angle (Similar to wing twist). Does this make sense to any of the
>aerodynamic gurus on the list?
>
>Rex Rodebush
>
>
>From: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net
><mailto:rwpike@charter.net>>
>
>Subject: Vortex Generators update - success!
>Last week I put vortex generators on my MKIII and while it made things
>better, it didn't make it stall noticeably slower. Discovered today it was
>because I didn't have enough of them. I now have one on every rib, 28 per
>side with each one having two vanes ala Howard Shackleford's general
>layout. Stall is at 21 indicated, 30 actual, that is 5 mph less than last
>week. No negative change in stall behavior, it actually seems more docile
>than before. That may be because I did the VG's in front of the ailerons a
>little different. The outboard 14 VG's are staggered, one is back 9.5
>inches from leading edge centerline, the next is 11 inches, the next 9.5
>inches, etc. The inboard 14 are all at 11 inches back. Why did I do it
>that way? I saw a web page advertising STC'd VG's for a Super Cub, and the
>VG's in front of the aileron were closer to the leading edge than the ones
>on the rest of the wing, said it gave better aileron control through the
>stall. They didn't say why it worked, ju!
>st that it did. So I compromised, and for whatever reason, it works real
>well.
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Strobe light |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
Since I wanted to paint the whole airplane with all the same kind of paint,
I covered the tube with fabric, and ran the wire down the outside of the
tube, (about 30 degrees off bottom center so I wouldn't cut it if I drug
the bottom of the tube) in between two layers of fabric. It is invisible
and out of the way. Covering the tube with fabric is easy to do.
DO NOT put the strobe or a white nav light on the aft edge of the rudder,
extra weight on the rudder trailing edge will create rudder flutter. Guess
how I know this?
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 08:05 PM 10/23/03 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jimmy <jhankin@planters.net>
>
>For those of you that have a strobe light on the rear of your ultralight,
>how did you route the wire to the strobe?
>
>Did you put the wire through the tube??
>
>Do Not Archive
>
>Jimmy Hankinson
>912-863-7384
>Rocky Ford, Ga. 30455
>jhankin@planters.net
>Kolb Firefly/447/240hrs
>Local field, Pegasus/2000/Grass
>Airport JYL/Sylvania, Ga.
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
Try this one -
http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1951/naca-rm-a50l12/naca-rm-a50l12.pdf
Don't know if it's what you want, but this is the original NACA tests on VG's
The stuff relative to the type of VG's that we use starts on page 11.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 09:00 PM 10/23/03 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
>
>IM still hunting for a site with the drawings of the airflow
>enhancement..//.....
>
>
>http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
>Don Gherardini-
>FireFly 098
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: 912S Upgrade |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Cooley" <johnc@datasync.com>
Hi John,
I have to work tomorrow or I would fly the 2 miles to Ronnie's and visit for
awhile. I was over there today and Ronnie told me he had the stuff in to do
the upgrades. I plan on carrying my engine over Monday and get the upgrade.
Hopefully by then we will have heard a report from you on what difference it
makes and I will feel better about the additional 600 dollars I'm spending.
Have a safe trip.
"do not archive"
John Cooley
Subject: Kolb-List: 912S Upgrade
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Anyone in the Lucedale area drop on in and sit a spell.
Take care,
john h
Message 18
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| Subject: | Vortex generators pics |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
Added a Vortex Generators page to my MKIII webpage.
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/Vortex%20Generators.html
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
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