Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:22 AM - Re: Vortex Generators (Thom Riddle)
2. 06:58 AM - Re: Vortex Generators (Bob Bean)
3. 07:47 AM - Re: Vortex Generators (Richard Pike)
4. 12:25 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Ben Ransom)
5. 12:48 PM - 2SI gearbox service ()
6. 01:33 PM - Re: 2SI gearbox service (Olenik Aviation)
7. 02:24 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (kuffel)
8. 02:27 PM - Re: Vortex Generators update - success! (HShack@aol.com)
9. 03:31 PM - Re: 2SI gearbox service ()
10. 04:17 PM - 912S Hi Torque Starter and Slip Clutch (John Hauck)
11. 04:26 PM - Medical (Paul Petty)
12. 05:35 PM - 912S starter and slipper clutch upgrade (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com)
13. 07:15 PM - Re: 2SI gearbox service (Don Gherardini)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
I have made my VGs but not yet installed them on the 84FS377. My goal is to
reduce landing and take-off speed to a minimum.
My quandary is this. Since the short legs on the aircraft preclude a full
stall angle of attack in 3 point stance, does it make sense to install the
VGs at the separation point at full-stall angle of attack or at the 3-point
angle of attack? The only way I know of estimating these separation points
is by finding the top of the airfoil at the angle of attack under these two
different conditions and assuming the separation point is slightly behind
that.
Based on the reading I've done, these airfoils tend to stall at
approximately 14-16 degrees AOA and normal cruise is around 4-6 degrees, so
if this is correct, then we are only dealing with an AOA range of 10-12
degrees. I have fabricated a simple angle of attack gauge and will install
this hoping to verify current AOAs under different conditions before VGs and
then again after installing the VGs.
I have read most of the archives on VGs but still don't know the best
location for the VGs for minimizing the take-off and landing speed in ground
effect. Any insight will be appreciated.
Thom Riddle
84FS377
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
Thom, to further confuse the issue.....I noticed in the recent "custom
planes" an article
on stc'd vgs for a late model taylorcraft. They were located very far up
front.
The price was pretty steep too for a handful of aluminum strips. -BB do
not archive
Thom Riddle wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>
>I have made my VGs but not yet installed them on the 84FS377. My goal is to
>reduce landing and take-off speed to a minimum.
>
>My quandary is this. Since the short legs on the aircraft preclude a full
>stall angle of attack in 3 point stance, does it make sense to install the
>VGs at the separation point at full-stall angle of attack or at the 3-point
>angle of attack? The only way I know of estimating these separation points
>is by finding the top of the airfoil at the angle of attack under these two
>different conditions and assuming the separation point is slightly behind
>that.
>
>Based on the reading I've done, these airfoils tend to stall at
>approximately 14-16 degrees AOA and normal cruise is around 4-6 degrees, so
>if this is correct, then we are only dealing with an AOA range of 10-12
>degrees. I have fabricated a simple angle of attack gauge and will install
>this hoping to verify current AOAs under different conditions before VGs and
>then again after installing the VGs.
>
>I have read most of the archives on VGs but still don't know the best
>location for the VGs for minimizing the take-off and landing speed in ground
>effect. Any insight will be appreciated.
>
>Thom Riddle
>84FS377
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
I like Jack Hart's method of flying the airplane off in ground effect and
noting the airspeed. Tape your vg's on and do it again, note the airspeed.
Try them further forward and then back and see how it flies just above
touchdown in ground effect, and you will hit the sweet spot. Besides, it's
fun flying down a long grass runway at slow speeds in ground effect, you
can have fun during the tests.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 09:22 AM 10/24/03 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>
>I have made my VGs but not yet installed them on the 84FS377. My goal is to
>reduce landing and take-off speed to a minimum.
><snip>
>
>I have read most of the archives on VGs but still don't know the best
>location for the VGs for minimizing the take-off and landing speed in ground
>effect. Any insight will be appreciated.
>
>Thom Riddle
>84FS377
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Ben Ransom <bwr000@yahoo.com>
Thom,
You might be making this more complicated than necessary. How do you
really know you would want the VGs located at the "point of separation"
anyway? [on the theoretical side I would think the vgs would need to
be in front of that point.] And, of course that point will change when
you put the vgs on. I'd pick the location used by others, flight test,
relocate, etc. As Richard says -- a great bit of fun in itself.
-Ben
--- Thom Riddle <jtriddle@adelphia.net> wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle"
> <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>
> I have made my VGs but not yet installed them on the 84FS377. My
> goal is to
> reduce landing and take-off speed to a minimum.
>
> My quandary is this. Since the short legs on the aircraft preclude a
> full
> stall angle of attack in 3 point stance, does it make sense to
> install the
> VGs at the separation point at full-stall angle of attack or at the
> 3-point
> angle of attack? The only way I know of estimating these separation
> points
> is by finding the top of the airfoil at the angle of attack under
> these two
> different conditions and assuming the separation point is slightly
> behind
> that.
>
> Based on the reading I've done, these airfoils tend to stall at
> approximately 14-16 degrees AOA and normal cruise is around 4-6
> degrees, so
> if this is correct, then we are only dealing with an AOA range of
> 10-12
> degrees. I have fabricated a simple angle of attack gauge and will
> install
> this hoping to verify current AOAs under different conditions before
> VGs and
> then again after installing the VGs.
>
> I have read most of the archives on VGs but still don't know the best
> location for the VGs for minimizing the take-off and landing speed in
> ground
> effect. Any insight will be appreciated.
>
> Thom Riddle
> 84FS377
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
=====
http://mae.ucdavis.edu/~ransom
__________________________________
Message 5
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| Subject: | 2SI gearbox service |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: <rowedl@highstream.net>
Kolbers,
I got my GB-1 gearbox together yesterday with new seals. They cost a grand total
of $13.11 delivered from ZDE. I used Yamabond sealant when I reassembled the
gearbox and after letting it set up overnight I installed it and prop today
and took a couple trips around the pattern to test out the job before venturing
away from the airport.
Whew Wee do these things ever climb on cool buoyant days, the VSI bounced between
1100 and 1700 FPM and I was at 600 AGL before I crossed the numbers on both
take offs.
After the second landing, I parked on the taxiway and jumped out to check for leaks.
DRATS! found that I must have had a void in the bead of Yamabond around the top
front aluminum seal plate and I was loosing a little gear oil.
Pulled it back off and will tear it down clean it up and try again tonight with
high temp silicon instead of Yamabond.
Man it is nice out and I was hoping to put a couple hours on her today.
Maybe tomorrow.
Dennis Rowe, Mk-3, PA
Message 6
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| Subject: | 2SI gearbox service |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Olenik Aviation" <olenik-aviation@buyitsellitfixit.com>
Denny,
It's probably coming from that vent....plug it with some RTV. Otherwise it
will always leak a little gear lube. Not much, but a little looks like a
lot when the air is smearing it around.
Tom Olenik
Olenik Aviation
http://www.buyitsellitfixit.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
rowedl@highstream.net
Subject: Kolb-List: 2SI gearbox service
--> Kolb-List message posted by: <rowedl@highstream.net>
Kolbers,
I got my GB-1 gearbox together yesterday with new seals. They cost a grand
total of $13.11 delivered from ZDE. I used Yamabond sealant when I
reassembled the gearbox and after letting it set up overnight I installed it
and prop today and took a couple trips around the pattern to test out the
job before venturing away from the airport.
Whew Wee do these things ever climb on cool buoyant days, the VSI bounced
between 1100 and 1700 FPM and I was at 600 AGL before I crossed the numbers
on both take offs.
After the second landing, I parked on the taxiway and jumped out to check
for leaks.
DRATS! found that I must have had a void in the bead of Yamabond around the
top front aluminum seal plate and I was loosing a little gear oil.
Pulled it back off and will tear it down clean it up and try again tonight
with high temp silicon instead of Yamabond.
Man it is nice out and I was hoping to put a couple hours on her today.
Maybe tomorrow.
Dennis Rowe, Mk-3, PA
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: kuffel <kuffel@cyberport.net>
Thom,
<<install the VGs at the separation point at full-stall angle of attack
or at the 3-point
angle of attack? .. separation points is by finding the top of the
airfoil .. assuming the separation point is slightly behind that. ..
best location for the VGs>>
The official answer according to the NACA/NASA Technical Reports I've
read over the years is to place VGs so the vortexes they generate are
just tangent to each other at the trailing edge at stall. And there is
a modest tradeoff between number of VGs and chordwise location.
Unfortunately, determining when the vortices are tangent requires a wind
tunnel with smoke or extensive tuft testing. It is a lot easier to set
the number of VGs by other considerations such as rib location and
determine the chordwise location in flight test. Personally, I would do
this flight testing at altitude and use IAS and controllability as my
guide. Then the tail wheel will tell you if you need longer gear legs
for maximum performance 3-point landings by consistently hitting the
runway first.
Tom Kuffel
Whitefish, MT
Building Original FireStar
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators update - success! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com
In a message dated 10/21/03 7:29:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
rwpike@charter.net writes:
> Vince Nicely has persuaded me to gap seal the horizontal stab to the
> elevators, and I had planned to put some VG's in front of the stab bottom
> trailing edge, as the MKIII needs more elevator authority, so tell me more
> about how they affect the rudder? (Once you've already got 50 or 60 of the
> stupid looking things making your airplane look like a porcupine, what's a
> few more?)
>
>
On my Firestar II, I just noticed a good bit more rudder authority. Before,
in a slip I could turn her sideways maybe 25 degrees [WAG]; now, it's more
like 35 degrees.
I put them on my horizontal stab [like you said], but it's difficult to judge
effectiveness as I already had plenty.
When I saw the significant drop in stall speed [5 mph] after installing 7 on
each main rib, I, too figured more is better. I installed one on each false
rib, and indeed the stall dropped another 2 mph, but now the stall was
violent & would have been dangerous at low altitudes. I took 'em off the false
ribs.
I also put three on each side of my fuselage, just in front of the widest
part. Don't know if they help or not, but my top speed is a little higher & fuel
mileage is significantly better than several other local Firestars. Of
course, it could be the "C" box w/ 3.47:1 ratio & Warp Drive 68" dia. taper tip
prop.....................
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 2SI gearbox service |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: <rowedl@highstream.net>
Tom wrote
> Denny,
>
> It's probably coming from that vent....plug it with some RTV. Otherwise
it
> will always leak a little gear lube. Not much, but a little looks like a
> lot when the air is smearing it around.
>
> Tom Olenik
> Olenik Aviation
> http://www.buyitsellitfixit.com
Tom,
I already plugged the vent per Rogers advice, the oil I was loosing was
blowing little oil bubbles around the aluminum seal ring in front of the
prop shaft. The pressure buildup from heat in the gearbox was bubbling out
the seam in one little spot. I can't pressure test the beast before
installation because I still have not found a male 1/16 NPT to hose adapter.
Thanks for the input though.
Sincerely,
Dennis Rowe
Message 10
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| Subject: | 912S Hi Torque Starter and Slip Clutch |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Hi All:
Despite the southern part of Alabama and Mississippi covered
up in a thick blanket of fog, Miss P'fer and I had a great
flight down to South Mississippi Light Aircraft, Lucedale,
MS, and back today. By the time I got in the local area of
Lucedale the fog had started lifting and we breezed right in.
Didn't take long to do the starter and slip clutch install.
Test start was a pleasant surprise. The new starter kicks
the engine over much quicker. Touch the start switch and
the 912S is idling with no low speed vibration. The violent
start ups are history.
Logged 5.2 hours, 2.5 down and 2.5 back. Flew 400 sm on the
nose. Averaged 80 mph for the entire flight. About 5 mph
quicker than my standard of 75 mph I use for flight
planning. Burned 25 gal 93 octane MOGAS. Figures out to 16
mpg. I had to pickup 5 gal of 100LL in Monroeville, AL, to
make sure I had my normal reserve when I landed at Gantt
International Airport. Burned 5 gph. I turned the 912S
5,200 rpm for the majority of the flight.
Now that I have these updates done I am anxious to get the
new 72" Warp Drive three-blade fast taper prop installed and
see how it does.
Ready to load up and head to Alaska. BTW: Ronnie Smith has
indicated he wants to put his name in the pot to go with
John Williamson, Tom and Betty Kuffel, and me, next summer.
He is repairing a 912 powered Kit Fox that he hopes to
make the flight in. Anyone else that is interested in going
with us, departing on or about 1 July 2004, put your name in
the hat and start getting ready to fly and have an adventure
of a lifetime.
Take care,
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 11
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
Kolbers,
Today was a great day! The postman delivered my long awaited for medical certificate!
Talked to my CFI and this weekend is not looking good weather wise but
next week is looking better for my first solo!
Off to the shop to finish my hinges on the horz stabs.
do not archive
pp
Message 12
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| Subject: | 912S starter and slipper clutch upgrade |
10/24/2003 08":34:39.PM@matronics.com,
MIME-CD complete at 10/24/2003 08:34:39.PM@matronics.com,
Serialize by Router on SMTP102/URSCorp(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at
10/24/2003 08:34:47.PM@matronics.com
PRIORITY_NO_NAME
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com
I was also interested in the new starter and clutch for the 912S, but wasnt
sure I really needed it. Phil Lockwood of Lockwood aviation was at
Copperstate and I asked him directly. His answer: "if you are not having
any difficulty on startup, you do not need the upgrade." I dont see how
the starter and clutch will help with vibration during flight, but I await
John Hauck's report. Phil did recommend that I get the gear box inspected
after 300 hrs, but I believe that was regardless of whether you have the
new starter and clutch.
One last note: for anyone considering the change that is not based near a
Rotax service station, the gearbox can be relatively easily removed for
shipping to Lockwood or whoever for installation of the slipper clutch.
Installation of the new starter is relatively straight forward and can be
done by the end user. Check with Lockwood or your personal favorite for
the specific how-to directions.
regards,
Erich Weaver
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 2SI gearbox service |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Denny.....Shoulda used HondaBond..!!!!
hehe
Don Gherardini
Sales / Engineering dept.
American Honda Engines
Power Equipment Company
800-626-7326
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