Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:06 AM - Re: Alaska! (Larry Bourne)
2. 03:02 AM - Re: Yahoo hanger (WillUribe@aol.com)
3. 05:05 AM - yahoo:-( (Paul Petty)
4. 05:27 AM - Re: M3X Wing mods? (John Cooley)
5. 05:28 AM - Re: destinations (John Hauck)
6. 05:43 AM - vortex generators (Rex Rodebush)
7. 05:48 AM - Re: Yahoo hanger (John Hauck)
8. 05:59 AM - FW: vortex generators (Rex Rodebush)
9. 06:01 AM - w/b without wings mounted? (Jim Gerken)
10. 06:09 AM - Re: destinations/Bahamas (Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious)
11. 06:18 AM - Re: destinations (Paul Petty)
12. 07:03 AM - Re: FW: vortex generators (Richard Pike)
13. 07:31 AM - Tail Surface VG Effects (beauford)
14. 07:40 AM - Re: destinations/Bahamas (Paul Petty)
15. 07:42 AM - Re: destinations (Jim)
16. 07:44 AM - Re: destinations (John Hauck)
17. 07:47 AM - Re: destinations/Bahamas (Larry Bourne)
18. 07:56 AM - Re: FW: vortex generators (Larry Bourne)
19. 07:58 AM - VW Engines (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
20. 08:05 AM - Re: destinations (CaptainRon)
21. 08:09 AM - chat (Paul Petty)
22. 08:14 AM - Re: M3X Wing mods? (CaptainRon)
23. 08:15 AM - Alaska 2004 (John Williamson)
24. 08:22 AM - Re: destinations (Larry Bourne)
25. 08:27 AM - Little time and too much BS (CaptainRon)
26. 08:34 AM - Re: Verner Engine (William George)
27. 08:39 AM - Re: destinations (Christopher J Armstrong)
28. 08:55 AM - Re: destinations/Bahamas (CaptainRon)
29. 09:04 AM - Re: destinations (Paul Petty)
30. 09:07 AM - Re: Tail Surface VG Effects (Jack & Louise Hart)
31. 09:10 AM - Re: yahoo:-( (Matt Dralle)
32. 09:17 AM - Re: Tail Surface VG Effects (GeoR38@aol.com)
33. 09:18 AM - Re: destinations (James, Ken)
34. 09:26 AM - Re: FW: vortex generators (Richard Pike)
35. 09:26 AM - Re: destinations/Bahamas (GeoR38@aol.com)
36. 09:50 AM - Re: destinations/Bahamas (Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious)
37. 09:51 AM - Re: destinations (GeoR38@aol.com)
38. 09:58 AM - Re: yahoo:-( (GeoR38@aol.com)
39. 10:07 AM - Re: Tail Surface VG Effects (Cy Galley)
40. 10:20 AM - Re: yahoo:-( (Richard Pike)
41. 10:23 AM - Re: destinations/Bahamas (Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious)
42. 10:24 AM - Re: destinations (Richard Pike)
43. 10:25 AM - Re: M3X Wing mods? ()
44. 11:36 AM - chat (Paul Petty)
45. 12:05 PM - Re: Vortex generators installed (Jack & Louise Hart)
46. 12:48 PM - Re: destinations/Bahamas (beauford)
47. 01:04 PM - Re: chat (John Hauck)
48. 01:20 PM - Re: Verner (Kirby Dennis Contr ASC/TM)
49. 01:26 PM - Re: Tail Surface VG Effects (beauford)
50. 01:31 PM - Re: Tail Surface VG Effects (beauford)
51. 01:49 PM - Re: destinations/Bahamas (John Hauck)
52. 02:02 PM - Re: chat (Robert Laird)
53. 02:19 PM - Re: Tail Surface VG Effects (beauford)
54. 02:41 PM - Re: destinations/Bahamas (John Hauck)
55. 02:53 PM - Re: M3X Wing mods? (Jim Clayton)
56. 02:54 PM - ICQ (Paul Petty)
57. 02:54 PM - Re: Kolb Humor (James and Cathy Tripp)
58. 03:05 PM - Re: New Mark III Instrument Pod (Jim Clayton)
59. 03:09 PM - Re: Tail Surface VG Effects (Richard Pike)
60. 03:17 PM - Re: Tail Surface VG Effects (Jack & Louise Hart)
61. 03:54 PM - Re: M3X Wing mods? (Don Gherardini)
62. 04:09 PM - Re: M3X Wing mods? (John Hauck)
63. 04:11 PM - Kolb Porquepines (John Hauck)
64. 04:16 PM - Kolb Porcupines or Vortex Generators (John Hauck)
65. 04:51 PM - Re: destinations/Bahamas (Larry Bourne)
66. 05:05 PM - Re: FW: vortex generators (Larry Bourne)
67. 05:07 PM - Re: destinations/Bahamas (Larry Bourne)
68. 05:11 PM - RE.Chat (Don Gherardini)
69. 05:15 PM - Re: Yahoo hanger (bryan green)
70. 05:27 PM - Spam Block (Larry Bourne)
71. 05:34 PM - Re: destinations/Bahamas (Bob Bean)
72. 05:43 PM - Re: FW: vortex generators--aka spins (Bob Noyer)
73. 05:55 PM - Re: Kolb Porcupines or Vortex Generators (beauford)
74. 06:58 PM - Re: Kolb Porcupines or Vortex Generators (John Hauck)
75. 07:04 PM - Re: Kolb Porcupines or Vortex Generators (Jack & Louise Hart)
76. 07:05 PM - Re: Tail Surface VG Effects (Larry Cottrell)
77. 07:09 PM - Re: destinations/Bahamas (Larry Bourne)
78. 07:22 PM - Re: FW: vortex generators--aka spins (Dave Carr)
79. 07:42 PM - Re: Kolb Porcupines or Vortex Generators (John Hauck)
80. 07:45 PM - Re: FW: vortex generators (woody)
81. 07:54 PM - Re: Re: New Mark III Instrument Pod (CRAIG M NELSON)
82. 08:38 PM - Re: Kolb Porcupines or Vortex Generators (Richard Pike)
83. 08:55 PM - Re: Tail Surface VG Effects (Richard Pike)
84. 09:10 PM - Re: Tail Surface VG Effects (John Hauck)
85. 09:11 PM - Re: Kolb spins (beauford)
86. 09:17 PM - Re: Tail Surface VG Effects (beauford)
87. 09:47 PM - Re: Tail Surface VG Effects (Larry Bourne)
88. 10:19 PM - Re: destinations/Bahamas (CaptainRon)
89. 10:21 PM - Re: Kolb Porcupines or Vortex Generators (Don Gherardini)
90. 10:48 PM - Re: Kolb spins (Ben Ransom)
91. 10:56 PM - Re: M3X Wing mods? (CaptainRon)
Message 1
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Yah, that were a fun day. I really liked the little Mac 10. Real little
ripper, that one. Crocodile Lar. Do not
Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "kuffel" <kuffel@cyberport.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Alaska!
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: kuffel <kuffel@cyberport.net>
>
> Woody advises:
>
> <<Leave the handguns at home.>>
>
> Very true. Also leave your automatic weapons. Anyone who wants to try
> my Uzi's or other legal automatics (ask Big Lar) will have to do so
> before we leave Whitefish.
>
> There is a long laundry list of equipment you are required to carry.
> Someday I'll dig up the current version and post it here. Basically you
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Yahoo hanger |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: WillUribe@aol.com
IMHO as soon as you register your email address in Yahoo your mail box will
start filling with junk email. I don't know if Yahoo sells your email address
to spamers or spamers find a way to get it from Yahoo.
Regards,
Will Uribe
El Paso, TX (but working in Kansas City for 4 weeks).
FireStar II N4GU
C-172 N2506U
http://home.elp.rr.com/airplane/
do not archive
Message 3
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
Boy! That went over like a turd in the punch bowl.... Sorry Matt.I in no way intended
to take away from this list. It is wonderful and very safe. Yahoo on the
other hand can be risky. I have chatted for years myself and never had any problems.
I simply and mainly wanted a place to have live chat. Something like
a "Cheers". A place to have chat in real time. Perhaps in your infinite wisdom
of computer excellence you could set up a chat room at Matronics? At any rate
my apologies
Regards
Paul Petty
do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: M3X Wing mods? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Cooley" <johnc@datasync.com>
Hi Caption Ron and Gang,
As I understand it, the aluminum angle was originally suggested by Kolb on
the outboard rib of each wing to slightly strengthen it and to keep from
twisting the rib while handling the wings in the folding process etc. This
consist of 4 pieces of angle. The bottom pieces are 3/4 x 3/4 x 1/16 and the
two top pieces are 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/16 angle. This is suggested in the plans of
1994 Firestar II and the 1999 Mark III that I have. What John H. did was to
add this bracing to the last four outboard ribs on each wing and to add just
the spar forward bracing on the rest of the ribs to strengthen the nose. I
think the reason he did this is because the leading edge of his Firestar
colasped from too much stess due to aerobatics and high speed etc. John
please correct this if I'm misquoting what I remember.
I do like the idea of an extra rib or two, but for a different reason. I
think another rib closer to the inboard steel root rib would prevent the
fabric from drumming as much and maybe reduce the tendency of the paint to
prematurely crack in this area as has been the case on my Firestar. I could
probably scan this page from the plans book and send to you if needed. Hope
this helps.
Later,
John Cooley
-------Original Message-------
From: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: M3X Wing mods?
--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
Mmmm good point about extra ribs.
Another 3 spread even around the wing wouldn't do any
harm. I don't understand the angle reinforcement. Is
that an L shape strip riveted to the bottom side of
the ribs?
My wings aint covered yet so I still can install them.
--- Jim Clayton <jspc78@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Jim Clayton
> <jspc78@yahoo.com>
>
> Greeting everyone,
>
> I have been hard at work building the horizontal
> stabilizers and the Vertical stabilizer, and so far
> having a great time. Everything has taken longer
> than
> I thought, so I've decided to forget working inside
> a
> timetable. I'll work till it's done! John Hauck's
> posting this morning convinced me of that, thanks
> John. Building the wings is coming soon, so I would
> like to make some decisions on the wing
> configuration:
> I have decided to strengthen the airframe such that
> I
> can run a 1200 Lb. gross weight, and still have the
> airframe strength margins built into the 1000 Lb.
> design. Spent time talking with folks at Oshkosh,
> and
> carefully going over the list archives for info on
> this, and have made improvements to the tail as
> widely
> discussed by John H. and others. Looking at the
> wings
> I am in favor of the angle reinforcements John H.
> and
> others have described, however after much stewing on
> the matter, it occurred to me since the wing isn't
> built yet, why not simply add ribs to the wing to
> reduce the load on any one rib, thereby reducing the
> chances of a rib failure by spreading the load? I
> weighted the ribs, and at 9.6 ounces each, I could
> go
> overboard and double the ribs, and only add about 10
> Lbs. to the plane! This seems too easy; am I
> missing
> something here? One concern I have is putting lots
> of
> extra rivet holes in the spar: would that compromise
> the spar integrity? It would add to the cost of
> course, but besides that, from a structural
> perspective, how does this sound? Anyone prefer the
> angle reinforcements, or some other tactic to
> increase
> strength in turbulent air while heavily loaded?
>
> Thanks in advance, Jim
>
> Jim Clayton
> California
> Mark-3X, Building
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
=====
Ron
Building M3X
Southern Arizona
__________________________________
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: destinations |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> That is my secret plan. Now I am going to
> have John the Hawk beat to it before I am done building
> my M3X.
Ron/All:
This hawk loves the water, fresh and salt, but, only from a
boat. Airplanes quit running when least expected in the
worst possible conditions. I'll let you all test those
"waters".
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 6
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| Subject: | vortex generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <rrodebush@tema.net>
That's what I'm thinking. On the Super Cub, the vg's in front of the ailerons
are more forward and the vg's at the root of the wing are back. Perhaps if all
were in the forward position the wing would stall at the slowest speed (highest
angle) but without aileron control. By moving the vg's back at the root it
makes the root stall first so you maintain aileron control.
Rex Rodebush
>
> http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
> Don Gherardini-
> FireFly 098
>
.....Or....could the stagger be related to a wing that has..........washout?
George Randolph
Firestar Driver from The Villages (for 2 weeks)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Yahoo hanger |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> I think a lot of us use Matronic's because we don't have
> to put up with all the pop-up ads and extra junk.
>
> I'm staying right here.
>
>
> John Williamson Arlington, TX
Good Morning John W/All:
I feel the same way.
I might add that it takes a little discipline to keep a good
list running. Without it, things go to Hell in a minute.
This particular list and another that I am a member of are
self disciplining and run well. I hear horror stories of
others that run rampart..........
Another reason I am not interested in getting involved in
another list/chat room is time. There is so little of it
and so much to do. I already spend way too much time on
this machine as it is.
Take care,
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 8
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| Subject: | FW: vortex generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <rrodebush@tema.net>
After thinking about this I may have missed your point. My theory would apply
to a flat wing. If the wing is built with washout I don't understand why the
vg's would be staggered' as the washout would take care of aileron control. Way
over my head here.
Rex Rodebush
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rex Rodebush
> Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 8:47 AM
> To: 'kolb-list@matronics.com'
> Subject: vortex generators
>
> That's what I'm thinking. On the Super Cub, the vg's in front of the ailerons
are more forward and the vg's at the root of the wing are back. Perhaps if
all were in the forward position the wing would stall at the slowest speed (highest
angle) but without aileron control. By moving the vg's back at the root
it makes the root stall first so you maintain aileron control.
>
> Rex Rodebush
>
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
> > Don Gherardini-
> > FireFly 098
> >
> .....Or....could the stagger be related to a wing that has..........washout?
>
> George Randolph
> Firestar Driver from The Villages (for 2 weeks)
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | w/b without wings mounted? |
10/28/2003 08:01:49 AM
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jim Gerken <gerken@us.ibm.com>
I wish to do a ROUGH weight and balance without the wings mounted on a
MKiii. The wings are inconveniently located right now. I am mounting the
new engine (BMW), and need to mount a battery and bat box. I know it will
go up front. By doing a w/b now, it will help me buy the correct battery.
Can anyone tell me what the normal wing/aileron/flap assembly weight is?
If I had a close estimate of wing weight, I would hang that on the cage at
the wing mount points, distributed slightly forward between the two
mounting points on each side of the cage. This would allow me to do the
w/b ROUGHLY now. Of course, I will do it again for real once the wings are
home and attached, in the Spring before flight. I do have the gap seal on,
for reference to the Datum line (from memory, the Datum is the leading
edge).
Thanks guys.
Jim G
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: destinations/Bahamas |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
Paul,
I flew my wife to the Bahamas in a rented Cherokee 180 a few years ago for
our anniversary. It was my first over water and my first outside the US.
You file a flight plan and declare a time you will cross the Defense Zone
and check in with Bahamamian Customs going over and U.S. Customs on the way
back. The scary part is all that water! I bought a GPS just to give me the
peace of mind that I was headed in the right direction. I dream of flying a
float equipped Kolb around the islands. One day ... . But there are LOTS
of landing strips over there. It would be way cool to do that with other
pilots.
Bob
N57MB "Miss B" Mark III Classic
>From: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:39:32 -0800 (PST)
>
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
>
>Hey
>
>You hush now!!!
>That is my secret plan. Now I am going to have John
>the Hawk beat to it before I am done building my M3X.
>In fact its in advanced planing stage as we speak.
>
>do not archive.
>
>
>--- Paul Petty <ppetty@c-gate.net> wrote:
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty"
> > <ppetty@c-gate.net>
> >
> > Kolbers,
> > Reading your post about the Alaska trip gives me
> > goose bumps. Due to my work, It will be many years
> > before I will be able to take a month off to make a
> > trip like that.
> > One destination I plan to make when I become good
> > enough to navigate long cross countries is the
> > Bahamas. I have read allot about the islands and it
> > looks like a super place to spend a week or so
> > flying around finding secluded beaches with a tent
> > and fishing rod. It's only like 45 miles from Ft.
> > Lauderdale FL to the first island of Bimini. What a
> > wonderful place to explore.
> > Nothing like Alaska I'm sure but a dang close
> > second. And doable for me within the next year or
> > so.
> > Anybody in to this or know of rules that they don't
> > tell you about in the brochures?
> > www.flying.bahamas.com
> >
> > pp
> >
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> > Contributions
> > any other
> > Forums.
> >
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm
> > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>=====
>Ron
>Building M3X
>Southern Arizona
>
>__________________________________
>Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
>http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
>
>
Bob, Kathleen, and Kory Brocious
Tenacity Farm
Campbellsburg, Kentucky
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: destinations |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
Wow John, Being the adventurer that you are I'm surprised that 45 miles of
water would spook the Hauck.
pp
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
>
> > That is my secret plan. Now I am going to
> > have John the Hawk beat to it before I am done building
> > my M3X.
>
> Ron/All:
>
> This hawk loves the water, fresh and salt, but, only from a
> boat. Airplanes quit running when least expected in the
> worst possible conditions. I'll let you all test those
> "waters".
>
> john h
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: FW: vortex generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
These are interesting ideas - Does a Super Cub wing have washout? In a wing
that had washout, it would seem that you could have the vg's at a constant
distance back from the LE and have the root stall first and the tips last
with the ailerons being effective until the stall. But that would still not
have the ailerons effective after the stall. (Is that really possible? It
is not on my MKIII that I can tell. They work great until the stall, then
the whole wing is stalled, it has totally quit, period, it's over)
Perhaps having the vg's in front of the ailerons "too far forward" is a way
of having the Super Cub ailerons still able to do something, even if the
wing has stalled. (Assuming that is really true, it could just be
marketing) So the question is- would you still have at least some useful
airflow and control -even if not attached to the upper wing- in the
vicinity of the ailerons if you had "too far forward" vg's in front of
them? And does this work on Super Cub wings but not on ours since the
airfoils/ailerons are different?
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 09:02 AM 10/28/03 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <rrodebush@tema.net>
>
>After thinking about this I may have missed your point. My theory would
>apply to a flat wing. If the wing is built with washout I don't
>understand why the vg's would be staggered' as the washout would take care
>of aileron control. Way over my head here.
>
>Rex Rodebush
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rex Rodebush
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 8:47 AM
> > To: 'kolb-list@matronics.com'
> > Subject: vortex generators
> >
> > That's what I'm thinking. On the Super Cub, the vg's in front of the
> ailerons are more forward and the vg's at the root of the wing are
> back. Perhaps if all were in the forward position the wing would stall
> at the slowest speed (highest angle) but without aileron control. By
> moving the vg's back at the root it makes the root stall first so you
> maintain aileron control.
> >
> > Rex Rodebush
> >
> > >
> > > http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
> > > Don Gherardini-
> > > FireFly 098
> > >
> > .....Or....could the stagger be related to a wing that
> has..........washout?
> >
> > George Randolph
> > Firestar Driver from The Villages (for 2 weeks)
> >
> >
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Tail Surface VG Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Listers;
Have been following the wing VG thread and have learned a lot from the info exchanges...
However, have seen only occasional references about the use of VG's on the tail
for various purposes... mebbe one of you experimenters / engineers would be
kind enough to help me sort out a little problem.
The FireFly requires a little constant left rudder at cruise in order to make the
yaw string stay at attention.... The rudder already has a big lexan trim tab
installed on it; about 11 inches long with about 2 inches of it out in the
breeze to the right at a 45 degree angle. That tab eases the left rudder need
considerably, but does not remove it completely.
My so-called "intuition" (which I don't trust much any more since it was a major
factor in leading me into 38 years of matrimony....) says to put the VG's on
the left side of the vertical fin to increase the effectiveness of left rudder
inputs.... but I really don't know for sure, and would hate to hang the junk
on the wrong side of the tail and then have to remove it later..
So my questions: Which side of the vertical fin do they go on, and about how far
ahead of the rudder leading edge? Also, is there value in putting VG's on
the bottom of the horizontal stab to boost up-elevator effectiveness in the landing
flare? Mine seems weak when the ailerons are drooped any....
Any kindness from persons with knowledge of these matters would be greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Beauford
FF#076
Brandon, FL
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: destinations/Bahamas |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
Bob,
That sounds like a heck of a lot of fun. What about landing on secluded
beaches?
pp
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious"
<bbrocious@hotmail.com>
>
> Paul,
> I flew my wife to the Bahamas in a rented Cherokee 180 a few years ago for
> our anniversary. It was my first over water and my first outside the US.
> You file a flight plan and declare a time you will cross the Defense Zone
> and check in with Bahamamian Customs going over and U.S. Customs on the
way
> back. The scary part is all that water! I bought a GPS just to give me
the
> peace of mind that I was headed in the right direction. I dream of flying
a
> float equipped Kolb around the islands. One day ... . But there are LOTS
> of landing strips over there. It would be way cool to do that with other
> pilots.
> Bob
> N57MB "Miss B" Mark III Classic
>
> >From: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
> >Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> >To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
> >Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:39:32 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
> >
> >Hey
> >
> >You hush now!!!
> >That is my secret plan. Now I am going to have John
> >the Hawk beat to it before I am done building my M3X.
> >In fact its in advanced planing stage as we speak.
> >
> >do not archive.
> >
> >
> >--- Paul Petty <ppetty@c-gate.net> wrote:
> > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty"
> > > <ppetty@c-gate.net>
> > >
> > > Kolbers,
> > > Reading your post about the Alaska trip gives me
> > > goose bumps. Due to my work, It will be many years
> > > before I will be able to take a month off to make a
> > > trip like that.
> > > One destination I plan to make when I become good
> > > enough to navigate long cross countries is the
> > > Bahamas. I have read allot about the islands and it
> > > looks like a super place to spend a week or so
> > > flying around finding secluded beaches with a tent
> > > and fishing rod. It's only like 45 miles from Ft.
> > > Lauderdale FL to the first island of Bimini. What a
> > > wonderful place to explore.
> > > Nothing like Alaska I'm sure but a dang close
> > > second. And doable for me within the next year or
> > > so.
> > > Anybody in to this or know of rules that they don't
> > > tell you about in the brochures?
> > > www.flying.bahamas.com
> > >
> > > pp
> > >
> > > do not archive
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Contributions
> > > any other
> > > Forums.
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm
> > > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >=====
> >Ron
> >Building M3X
> >Southern Arizona
> >
> >__________________________________
> >Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> >http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
> >
> >
>
>
> Bob, Kathleen, and Kory Brocious
> Tenacity Farm
> Campbellsburg, Kentucky
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: destinations |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim" <flykolb@carolina.rr.com>
What altitude would you need to have to glide 22.5 miles in case of an
engine out?
Jim
Mark III
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
>
> Wow John, Being the adventurer that you are I'm surprised that 45 miles of
> water would spook the Hauck.
>
> pp
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> >
> >
> > > That is my secret plan. Now I am going to
> > > have John the Hawk beat to it before I am done building
> > > my M3X.
> >
> > Ron/All:
> >
> > This hawk loves the water, fresh and salt, but, only from a
> > boat. Airplanes quit running when least expected in the
> > worst possible conditions. I'll let you all test those
> > "waters".
> >
> > john h
> >
> > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >
> >
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: destinations |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> Wow John, Being the adventurer that you are I'm surprised
> that 45 miles of water would spook the Hauck.
>
> pp
Paul/All:
Water doesn't spook me. I love it.
Flying over it, especially 45 miles of water, in a single
engine experimental homebuilt or any other single engine
aircraft, RW or FW, piston or turbine, is far greater than I
can glide to safety if I have an engine out.
To fly my own airplane I must be willing to risk losing it
in the event of a crash, which can happen at my own grass
strip as well as between Dead Horse and Barrow, Alaska.
However, I like to factor in the chances of survival for the
pilot in those crashes. Over water, my chances are
drastically reduced.
I might add, I don't plan on flying in Mexico or any other
country south of the border either, based on their attitude,
law enforcement or lack of, etc. I prefer to fly CONUS,
there is a lot of it, Canada, where I have always been
treated great, and Alaska. There is more out there in the
North American Continent to see than I will ever be able to
experience in my MK III or my Dodge/Cummins and 5th wheel.
I am not willing to take the chance of going into the Gulf
Stream any more than I would try to fly the Inside Passage
from Seattle to Homer, Alaska. Not scared or spooked, just
got better sense, I hope. :-)
Take care,
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: destinations/Bahamas |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
I've made the flight to Santa Catalina Island, and you can forget the "26
miles across the sea" that was in the song............from Dana Point to the
airport is more like 35 miles or so. Went over the coastline at 6,000 ft.,
and kept a steady slow climb going until way past the center of the channel,
so's to give maximum gliding distance, just in case. Also kept an eye on
which boats were where, in case I did have to ditch - the closer to help the
better. One thing you hear about is true...........the engine on that
Cessna 172 made a lot of strange noises (imagination ??) on that
Loooooooonnnngg 35 miles. Will I do it again ?? You bet ! ! ! Will I be
comfortable when I cross the coastline ?? Nope ! ! ! Will I do it in
Vamoose ?? Uhhhh............that re-drive is gonna hafta REALLY prove
itself, and I'd much prefer to have the plane on floats. We'll see. Go
to the Bahamas ?? I'd love it ! ! ! Been dreaming about that all my life.
Lar. Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious"
<bbrocious@hotmail.com>
>
> Paul,
> I flew my wife to the Bahamas in a rented Cherokee 180 a few years ago for
> our anniversary. It was my first over water and my first outside the US.
> You file a flight plan and declare a time you will cross the Defense Zone
> and check in with Bahamamian Customs going over and U.S. Customs on the
way
> back. The scary part is all that water! I bought a GPS just to give me
the
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: FW: vortex generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
I'm a little uncomfortable with this thread..............playing with the
ailerons is OK, but I've had it pounded into my head from day 1 that you do
NOT use the ailerons while stalled - they can put the aircraft into a spin.
I've been taught to control attitude while stalled with the rudder pedals,
and I DO practise it from time to time. This kind of experimenting is
great for the more experienced pilots, but if a newbie were to give it a go,
he might just wind up in serious trouble. (remember - altitude is your
friend) Several years ago, I told "my own" spin story on the List, and
believe me, it was spooky.............and I was lucky - it was on my 1st
real solo flight, when I rented the airplane and took off on my own for the
1st time. Came very close to being killed. This whole VG thread is
great, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it, but I do feel this point should be
made. Cautious Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Pike" <rwpike@charter.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FW: vortex generators
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
>
> These are interesting ideas - Does a Super Cub wing have washout? In a
wing
> that had washout, it would seem that you could have the vg's at a constant
> distance back from the LE and have the root stall first and the tips last
> with the ailerons being effective until the stall. But that would still
not
> have the ailerons effective after the stall. (Is that really possible? It
> is not on my MKIII that I can tell. They work great until the stall, then
> the whole wing is stalled, it has totally quit, period, it's over)
>
> Perhaps having the vg's in front of the ailerons "too far forward" is a
way
> of having the Super Cub ailerons still able to do something, even if the
> wing has stalled. (Assuming that is really true, it could just be
> marketing) So the question is- would you still have at least some useful
> airflow and control -even if not attached to the upper wing- in the
> vicinity of the ailerons if you had "too far forward" vg's in front of
> them? And does this work on Super Cub wings but not on ours since the
> airfoils/ailerons are different?
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
> At 09:02 AM 10/28/03 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <rrodebush@tema.net>
> >
> >After thinking about this I may have missed your point. My theory would
> >apply to a flat wing. If the wing is built with washout I don't
> >understand why the vg's would be staggered' as the washout would take
care
> >of aileron control. Way over my head here.
> >
> >Rex Rodebush
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Rex Rodebush
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 8:47 AM
> > > To: 'kolb-list@matronics.com'
> > > Subject: vortex generators
> > >
> > > That's what I'm thinking. On the Super Cub, the vg's in front of the
> > ailerons are more forward and the vg's at the root of the wing are
> > back. Perhaps if all were in the forward position the wing would stall
> > at the slowest speed (highest angle) but without aileron control. By
> > moving the vg's back at the root it makes the root stall first so you
> > maintain aileron control.
> > >
> > > Rex Rodebush
> > >
> > > >
> > > > http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
> > > > Don Gherardini-
> > > > FireFly 098
> > > >
> > > .....Or....could the stagger be related to a wing that
> > has..........washout?
> > >
> > > George Randolph
> > > Firestar Driver from The Villages (for 2 weeks)
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 19
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
Please excuse the length of this post. I'm getting a number of people that
ask about putting a VW on their Kolbs and in the attached messages Joel
asked some good questions that others maybe interested in and I figured this
would be good for the archives.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
----- Original Message -----
From: Joel Reed
Subject: Hello
Hi Rick,
Hello my name is Joel Reed, I am a silent lurker on the Kolb list. I
fly a 1993 Kolb Mark III w/582 turning a 68" IVO prop. I fly out of Keller
Bros Airport in southeast of Pa. I saw that you have a VW engine on your
plane and I read as much as I could on the archives about what you had said
about the VW engines. And I am impressed and now am considering putting one
on my plane too. I do enjoy serious cross country and the 582 does not fit
in my ideal "cross country" engine. Due to high fuel burn and lower
airspeed. And I was looking into getting a kit and converting a VW engine
if I can find one. But I just wanted to ask you which engine did you get?
the VW type 1 or 4 and what engine size do you have ? 2180 cc? With redrive
how much does the engine weight? I had read in a magazine article that said
the 2180 cc with redrive weights 191 pounds. That sounds like alot to me,
but I thought if you can do it then I should be able too.
Did you have any trouble mounting the engine on the plane? Any
modification done? What kind of prop are you using?
If you could take some time to answer those questions that would be
greatly appreciated. I would like to know more before I put down all the
money. I would like to get a Rotax 912 or a 912S but they cost way too much
and the parts for my 582 are bad enough.
Regards,
Joel Reed
1993 Kolb Mark III
Lancaster, Pa
Joel
If you want a serious cross country airplane you may want a 912 Rotax due to
its proven reliability. If you don't want to spend the big bucks the
reduction drive VW is the best alternative. My engine is a 2180cc type I
dune buggy engine with the Gene Smith reduction drive that Great Plains
sells also. I just looked up the weight on the Great Plains web site and
they do list the engine at 191lbs and it sounds a bit heavy but they list it
with a Slick Magneto and they are heavy. In comparison my VW is app 17lbs
more than a Rotax 912. The Great Plains web site is
http://www.greatplainsas.com/ . I have a web site were I have photos and for
details of engine parts/choices, click on "VW Details"
http://www.geocities.com/NeilsenRM/kolb-MKIII.htm . Also I have attached a
drawing for a modification to the cage of the MKIII that would allow the
engine to be bolted directly to the cage for a much lower thrust line with a
weight savings. My plane weighs 554lbs and it has allot of stuff that
contributed to the weight besides the engine. I think the progressive Weber
would be a better choice for a carb than the dual Webers I have. I also have
a bit too much prop so maybe a 71 inch prop would work better or if you
lowered the engine then you could try more reduction. Be sure to specify the
tight cut sprockets and if you go to the higher reduction ratios and have a
three bladed prop get the larger crank shaft sprocket.
I will help as much as you like.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
----- Original Message -----
From: Joel Reed
Subject: Re: Hello
Rick,
Thanks for your reply, I am just at the point of trying to figure out
if its all feasible to me to add on a VW. I do understand that Rotax are
good engines, but my budget is not in that league. I had even looked for
used Rotax 912 but the few I found were at least $5000+ and incomplete,
meaning you would have to get muffler, and accessories and that would be
much more $$$. The drawing that you sent me... did you cut the engine
support tubing, and weld a new cross member on to mount the engine on?
Did you buy the engine complete or did you get the kit? I was having a
hard time figuring out the Great Plains catalog on the web site. And also
the progressive Weber carb that you were telling me. I did not see that
carb on the catalog unless its in under another name. I did see the dual
carb. Do you have inflight mixture control also? Dual ignition? What
do you have in place of Slick Magnetos? I saw that theres different
accessories package (#1,#2.#3,#4...) Which one did you get?
I hope you don't mind answering my questions, I was just hoping that I
could sell my 582 and use that money to put a VW engine on. I have a blue
head 582 with E-box turning a 68" prop. Has about 112 hours on now. I
thought I could be able to get a VW engine on my plane and be able to break
even by selling the 582.
Regards,
Joel
Joel
My airplane currently uses the stock rotax mount with a welded 4130
adapter that links the VW to the Rotax mount. The adapter weighs 6-7 pounds
and the engine sits much higher than I like causing pitch problems when I
fly with a heavy passenger. The drawing is a adaptation of a mount I saw at
Oshkosh this year were they cut out the back part of the large tube on the
top of the cage out and all of the Rotax mount. They then welded in a
similar mount for use with a Geo engine. I took photos of it if you would
like me to send them.
In the details section of my web site it describes what I did but I
purchased a long block engine from a dune buggy engine builder in
California. The (long block) engine cost app. $3,200.00 shipped to my door.
The carb I mentioned is pictured in the Great Plains reduction drive photos
but they don't sell them. This carb like mine doesn't have a in-flight
mixture adjustment. Another option is fuel injection (like the one CB sells)
which would give you in-flight mixture, smother running, and lower fuel
burn. The down side is FI systems can cost close to $1500.00. Get a VW
catalog there are many options. I purchased most of the accessory pack 3.
Note! you will need to send the flywheel purchased from GP to your engine
builder if you have one built for you so that it can be mounted and balanced
( the GP flywheel is the only one that fits the Diehl accessory case and the
alternator). Also if you lower the VW like I show in the drawing you will
need to get the Diehl case that allows the starter to be mounted in the
3,12,9 o'clock position. It looks like the starter would have clearance
problems with the cage otherwise.
I flew with a GP direct drive VW engine for a few years. I sold the long
block engine on E-Bay for what it cost me originally from GP.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
----- Original Message -----
From: Joel Reed
To: Richard & Martha Neilsen
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: Hello
Rick,
Sure do please sent me the pictures of the engine mounts that you
saw at Oshkosh. Also by the way would you know the person who had this
particular plane/ engine mounts ?
Thanks for your answer to my last email. It sounds like it would
be quite some work to get all that together and on the plane. But then I
guess that's the way it usually is like building planes. I did not build
my plane, I just bought it last June. I like it very well. I think I
would like it better with a 4 stroke on. My plane now weights 484 pounds
dry, so I think I could add more weight to it as compared to your plane if I
put a VW engine on.
Thanks
Joel
The attached photos are close up photos of a Geo engine on a MKIII extra
cage. I met the owner but I don't remember his name. As you will notice a
effort was made to not mess with the basic structure of the cage. Yes this
is a bit of work but the adapter frame that I used to mount my engine was a
bit of work also and it has pitch issues that the lowered mount wouldn't.
There is a bunch of effort to mount the engine but the reliability,
reduced maintenance, and fuel burn make it worth it. The big VW feels nice
on my airplane. At cruise my VW engine turns 3200 RPMs which feels much like
a general aviation engine which I'm used to. The high frequency sounds and
vibrations of Rotax engines just aren't as pilot friendly. I admit I'm
biased but I think the VW is the best engine choice this side of $10,000. If
you have 12-14 thousand dollars laying around buy the 912 Rotax.
Would you mind if I posted our E-mail on the Kolb list. You have had
some great questions that others may have and I can avoid answering them
again.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: destinations |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
I almost thought I heard you say *taste* the water
instead of *test* the water. :-)
do not archive.
=================
Ron/All:
This hawk loves the water, fresh and salt, but, only
from a
boat. Airplanes quit running when least expected in
the
worst possible conditions. I'll let you all test
those
"waters".
john h
=====
Ron
Building M3X
Southern Arizona
__________________________________
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
Message 21
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
I agree with John Hauck about spending to much time on this machine. And yes chat
rooms can get out of hand. But I also think we are well mannered enough to
keep things in check. The main reason a live chat would come in handy for me is
I have a computer and internet access in my shop. If I hit a snag, as I often
do, I could just hop in and ask for help. But hey it's not for everyone.:-)
pp
do not archive
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: M3X Wing mods? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
>>>>As I understand it, the aluminum angle was
originally suggested by Kolb
on<<<<<<
Please clarify this for me,, when you say "aluminum
angle", do you mean an L shaped angle?
=====
Ron
Building M3X
Southern Arizona
__________________________________
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
Message 23
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot@comcast.net>
For those Kolbers thinking of joining us to Alaska,
I just off the phone with Transport Canada and here is the email they sent
me with some very interesting links. I was also informed that the pamphlet
"Air Tourist Information Canada" (TP771E) is obsolete and no replacement is
available.
*****************
Good day,
In response to your inquiry, to fly into Canada you will need to file your
flight plan and then clear customs. The number to call for Canada Customs is
1-888-CANPASS (or 1-888-226-7277). The customs clearance procedures for
private flights into Canada make it possible to arrive at destinations other
than major airports.
CANPASS:
http://www.ccra-adrc.gc.ca/E/pub/cp/rc4075/rc4075-e.html
Canadian Owners & Pilots Association (COPA) Website:
http://www.copanational.org/non-members/index.htm
The pilot and aircraft documentation needed on board the aircraft is the
following :
* Certificate of Registration
* Flight Authority
* Aircraft Flight Manual
* Proof of Insurance
* Pilot License
* Valid Medical Certificate
* Survival Equipment:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/REGSERV/CARAC/CARS/cars/602e.htm#602_61
* Restricted Radiotelephone Operator Certificate
Strategis (Industry Canada)
Radio Licensing: English:
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/internet/insmt-gst.nsf/vwGeneratedInterE/h_sf01775e.html
For inquiries regarding landing fees, please contact NavCanada at
1-800-876-4693. Their hours of operation are between 8am to 6pm Eastern
Standard Time.
For "NavCanada" publications http://www.navcanada.ca/navcanada.asp or
1-866 731-7827.
For maps you can contact "The Canada Map Office"
http://maps.nrcan.gc.ca/cmo/ or 1 800 465-6277.
I trust this information will be of assistance to you. I thank you for
taking the time to contact us. Please do not hesitate to write to us again
or contact us at 1-800-305-2059 should you require further information or
assistance.
Have a great day!
Dyanne B.
> Information Agent / Agent d'information
> Communications Centre / Centre de Communications
> Civil Aviation / Aviation civile
> 800 305-2059 (613) 993-7284
> facsimile / tlcopieur (613) 957-4208
> TTY / ATS (613) 990-4500
> services@tc.gc.ca <mailto:commcentre1@tc.gc.ca>
> Transport Canada Place de Ville (AARC), Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0N5
> Transports Canada Place de Ville (AARC) Ottawa (Ontario) K1A 0N5
> www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/menu.htm
> Government of Canada / Gouvernement du Canada
************************
Doesn't seem to hard of impossible to meet their requirements.
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolb Kolbra, SN: 008, Jabiru 2200, 497 hours
http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot/
do not archive
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: destinations |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Probably about 22.5 miles. :-) Another factor is the beach. I understand
the Bahamas have nice beaches, so that would help. Catalina is mostly
straight up and down rock, and just getting to the beach wouldn't help ya
much..............except for a shorter swim. Lar.
Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim" <flykolb@carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim" <flykolb@carolina.rr.com>
>
> What altitude would you need to have to glide 22.5 miles in case of an
> engine out?
>
> Jim
> Mark III
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
> >
> > Wow John, Being the adventurer that you are I'm surprised that 45 miles
of
> > water would spook the Hauck.
> >
> > pp
> > do not archive
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> > To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
> >
> >
> > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> > >
> > >
> > > > That is my secret plan. Now I am going to
> > > > have John the Hawk beat to it before I am done building
> > > > my M3X.
> > >
> > > Ron/All:
> > >
> > > This hawk loves the water, fresh and salt, but, only from a
> > > boat. Airplanes quit running when least expected in the
> > > worst possible conditions. I'll let you all test those
> > > "waters".
> > >
> > > john h
> > >
> > > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Little time and too much BS |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
Another reason I am not interested in getting involved
in
another list/chat room is time. There is so little of
it
and so much to do. I already spend way too much time
on
this machine as it is.<<<<<<<
===============================
I agree with the above 100%. There was a time a couple
of years ago where I spent about 3+ hrs a day on some
chat list. Reflecting back on those days is enough to
send chills through my spine. The time wasted will
never be recoverable, and the benefit's were nearly
nonexistent. No reflection on Paul's purpose. But I
think I'll keep my online BSing to something that will
be positive and constructive (pun intended)
experience.
Do not archive
=====
Ron
Building M3X
Southern Arizona
__________________________________
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Re: Verner Engine |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: William George <wgeorge@mountainmeadowranch.com>
The insides of the Verner look very nice. I think you will be pleased with
the operating temperatures when installed on the MK-3. Mine runs almost too
cool. Cylinder temps run 180 in climb and 160 (bottom of the green arc) in
cruise. Have not been able to get oil temp up to 90C, even with oil cooler
removed.
do not archive
Bill George
Kolb Mk-3/Verner1400SVS/Powerfin 68" "F"
> From: Kolb-List Digest Server <kolb-list-digest@matronics.com>
> Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:56:23 -0800
> To: Kolb-List Digest List <kolb-list-digest@matronics.com>
> Subject: Kolb-List Digest: 26 Msgs - 10/27/03
>
>
>
> Time: 06:34:16 AM PST US
> From: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot@comcast.net>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Verner Engine
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot@comcast.net>
>
> Still working on an exhaust system for the Verner. It ran real good for the
> short time I had on top the Kolbra. Had it on just long enough to verify all
> the wiring and fit. Hope to have it back on within a month.
>
> The cylinders are cast it looks like compared to the milled cylinders of the
> Jabiru. Maybe the roughness of the casting will help dissipate heat better
> than the Jabiru. I'll find out in the near future.
>
>
> John Williamson
> Arlington, TX
>
> Kolb Kolbra, SN: 008, Jabiru 2200, 497 hours
> http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot/
Message 27
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher J Armstrong" <tophera@centurytel.net>
At a 6 to 1 glide ratio it would be 3.75 miles or 19800 feet, if the
kolb can make 8 to 1 then 2.81 miles or 15000 feet I dont think your
going to want to be that high for any length of time!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim" <flykolb@carolina.rr.com>
What altitude would you need to have to glide 22.5 miles in case of an
engine out?
Jim
Mark III
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
>
> Wow John, Being the adventurer that you are I'm surprised that 45
> miles of water would spook the Hauck.
>
> pp
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> >
> >
> > > That is my secret plan. Now I am going to
> > > have John the Hawk beat to it before I am done building my M3X.
> >
> > Ron/All:
> >
> > This hawk loves the water, fresh and salt, but, only from a boat.
> > Airplanes quit running when least expected in the worst possible
> > conditions. I'll let you all test those "waters".
> >
> > john h
> >
> > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >
> >
>
>
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
---
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: destinations/Bahamas |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
Hey Larry
I used to flight instruct at RiverSide and also
Compton and one of my routines was to fly to Catelina
Island with every student. Never been a problem and
was lotsa fun. They used to have Buffalo burgers in
the restaurant in those days.
But the Bahamas are different... Folks you gotta keep
in mind the ***Bermuda Triangle** so until I am first
across that puddle in a Kolb I would suggest that you
all remember the "Bermuda Triangle" and Freddie, and
Friday the 13th, and Alien... and the Flying Sharks.
They are an evolutionary adaptation in response to Fly
Boys. They jump out the water spring gray dragon wings
fly up and snatch the pilot's head right out of their
Kolbs. Leaving the headless body and aircraft to spin
into the dark angry and very very deep water, not ever
to be seen again.
=======================
do not archive
--- Larry Bourne <biglar@gogittum.com> wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne"
> <biglar@gogittum.com>
>
> I've made the flight to Santa Catalina Island, and
> you can forget the "26
> miles across the sea" that was in the
> song............from Dana Point to the
> airport is more like 35 miles or so. Went over the
> coastline at 6,000 ft.,
> and kept a steady slow climb going until way past
> the center of the channel,
> so's to give maximum gliding distance, just in case.
> Also kept an eye on
> which boats were where, in case I did have to ditch
> - the closer to help the
> better. One thing you hear about is
> true...........the engine on that
> Cessna 172 made a lot of strange noises (imagination
> ??) on that
> Loooooooonnnngg 35 miles. Will I do it again ??
> You bet ! ! ! Will I be
> comfortable when I cross the coastline ?? Nope ! !
> ! Will I do it in
> Vamoose ?? Uhhhh............that re-drive is gonna
> hafta REALLY prove
> itself, and I'd much prefer to have the plane on
> floats. We'll see. Go
> to the Bahamas ?? I'd love it ! ! ! Been dreaming
> about that all my life.
> Lar. Do not Archive.
>
> Larry Bourne
> Palm Springs, CA
> Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB
> www.gogittum.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious"
> <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, &
> Kory Brocious"
> <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
> >
> > Paul,
> > I flew my wife to the Bahamas in a rented Cherokee
> 180 a few years ago for
> > our anniversary. It was my first over water and
> my first outside the US.
> > You file a flight plan and declare a time you will
> cross the Defense Zone
> > and check in with Bahamamian Customs going over
> and U.S. Customs on the
> way
> > back. The scary part is all that water! I bought
> a GPS just to give me
> the
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
=====
Ron
Building M3X
Southern Arizona
__________________________________
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: destinations |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
John/All
Is a dead stick landing possible on water with floats?
pp
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
>
> > Wow John, Being the adventurer that you are I'm surprised
> > that 45 miles of water would spook the Hauck.
> >
> > pp
>
> Paul/All:
>
> Water doesn't spook me. I love it.
>
> Flying over it, especially 45 miles of water, in a single
> engine experimental homebuilt or any other single engine
> aircraft, RW or FW, piston or turbine, is far greater than I
> can glide to safety if I have an engine out.
>
> To fly my own airplane I must be willing to risk losing it
> in the event of a crash, which can happen at my own grass
> strip as well as between Dead Horse and Barrow, Alaska.
> However, I like to factor in the chances of survival for the
> pilot in those crashes. Over water, my chances are
> drastically reduced.
>
> I might add, I don't plan on flying in Mexico or any other
> country south of the border either, based on their attitude,
> law enforcement or lack of, etc. I prefer to fly CONUS,
> there is a lot of it, Canada, where I have always been
> treated great, and Alaska. There is more out there in the
> North American Continent to see than I will ever be able to
> experience in my MK III or my Dodge/Cummins and 5th wheel.
>
> I am not willing to take the chance of going into the Gulf
> Stream any more than I would try to fly the Inside Passage
> from Seattle to Homer, Alaska. Not scared or spooked, just
> got better sense, I hope. :-)
>
> Take care,
>
> john h
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Tail Surface VG Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
At 10:31 AM 10/28/03 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
+++++++++++++++++++
>
>My so-called "intuition" (which I don't trust much any more since it was a major
factor in leading me into 38 years of matrimony....) says to put the VG's on
the left side of the vertical fin to increase the effectiveness of left rudder
inputs.... but I really don't know for sure, and would hate to hang the junk
on the wrong side of the tail and then have to remove it later..
>
>So my questions: Which side of the vertical fin do they go on, and about how
far ahead of the rudder leading edge? Also, is there value in putting VG's on
the bottom of the horizontal stab to boost up-elevator effectiveness in the landing
flare? Mine seems weak when the ailerons are drooped any....
>
Beauford
I have some VG's temporarily taped to the bottom of the horizontal stabilizer because
I wanted to get some more back stick. The first take off indicated they
were working because there is more back pressure on the stick to return to the
neutral position.
They can be seen at:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly62.html
And that is the neat thing about VG's is that you can mount them temporarily with
electrician tape. If you guess wrong or you want to try them in another position,
you can easily remove and put them back on. And if you decide they are
worth the end result, you can permanently mount them.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 31
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Let me see what I can come up with. I have plenty of bandwidth and system
horsepower to support a live chat server for the Lists. I will find
something and get it working. Consider it my mission...
Matt Dralle
List Admin
At 05:09 AM 10/28/2003 Tuesday, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
>
>Boy! That went over like a turd in the punch bowl.... Sorry Matt.I in no
>way intended to take away from this list. It is wonderful and very safe.
>Yahoo on the other hand can be risky. I have chatted for years myself and
>never had any problems. I simply and mainly wanted a place to have live
>chat. Something like a "Cheers". A place to have chat in real time.
>Perhaps in your infinite wisdom of computer excellence you could set up a
>chat room at Matronics? At any rate my apologies
>
>Regards
>
>Paul Petty
>
>do not archive
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Tail Surface VG Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
In a message dated 10/28/2003 10:31:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
beauford@tampabay.rr.com writes:
Any kindness from persons with knowledge of these matters would be greatly
appreciated.
Regards,
Beauford
FF#076
Brandon, FL
I don't know much or really anything about VG's Beauford, but I do know a bit
about tape. You or anyone could experiement with VG's I'll bet, by attaching
some double backed VHB (very high bonding) 1/32" foam tape to the bottom of
each VG and be secure in the tenacity of those babies during experimentation.
This stuff is available all over he place now even at Dollar stores, for hanging
pictures and other seemingly risky ventures. I personally use it on one of my
Aerotoys to hold Dubro Hinges on my Twilly....sounds personal, I know, but it
is on the up and up....I actually have a patent on the puppy. VHB adhesive
will flow over time into the most microscopic of recesses thereby increasing
holding power. Just the opposite of most curing adhesives.
George Randolph
Firestar driver from....The Villages?
Message 33
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "James, Ken" <KDJames@berkscareer.com>
Given a L/D of 4 to 1
to go 22.5 miles you need about 29,700 AGL
A thermal suit and Ox ;-)
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim [mailto:flykolb@carolina.rr.com]
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim" <flykolb@carolina.rr.com>
What altitude would you need to have to glide 22.5 miles in case of an
engine out?
Jim
Mark III
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
>
> Wow John, Being the adventurer that you are I'm surprised that 45 miles of
> water would spook the Hauck.
>
> pp
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> >
> >
> > > That is my secret plan. Now I am going to
> > > have John the Hawk beat to it before I am done building
> > > my M3X.
> >
> > Ron/All:
> >
> > This hawk loves the water, fresh and salt, but, only from a
> > boat. Airplanes quit running when least expected in the
> > worst possible conditions. I'll let you all test those
> > "waters".
> >
> > john h
> >
> > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >
> >
>
>
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: FW: vortex generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
Good point. So far, I have done a bunch of "normal" stalls, power on and
off, accelerated stalls, turns left and right, but nothing at full power,
especially with full power and full flaps, I suspect it might be more
exciting than I could handle! (I suspect that high trust line would have
you standing on your nose if you didn't get the throttle off fast enough!)
I cautiously attempted a couple power off stalls straight ahead where it
stalled and I held the stick back to see if it would enter a secondary
stall or a falling leaf, (and I had LOTS of altitude) it didn't do anything
overtly ugly, neither did it feel good. It felt like it was thinking about
maybe doing a new trick I hadn't seen before. So I quit. P.S., I did not so
much as wiggle the ailerons!
Vince Nicely is my local VG guru, he has spun his Firestar II while testing
his vg's, and does not intend to do it again. He says it is difficult to
recover without exceeding VNE and he feels it is not worth the risk, even
assuming you know what to do. And I have no spin experience, so I am done
exploring the limits. It works good up to and into the stall, that's enough
for me, time to quit pushing.
Thanks for the admonition! Theory is fun, but since most of us are
amateurs, it's good to draw a line and stay on the safe side of it
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 07:56 AM 10/28/03 -0800, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
>
>I'm a little uncomfortable with this thread..............playing with the
>ailerons is OK, but I've had it pounded into my head from day 1 that you do
>NOT use the ailerons while stalled - they can put the aircraft into a spin.
>I've been taught to control attitude while stalled with the rudder pedals,
>and I DO practise it from time to time. This kind of experimenting is
>great for the more experienced pilots, but if a newbie were to give it a go,
>he might just wind up in serious trouble. (remember - altitude is your
>friend) Several years ago, I told "my own" spin story on the List, and
>believe me, it was spooky.............and I was lucky - it was on my 1st
>real solo flight, when I rented the airplane and took off on my own for the
>1st time. Came very close to being killed. This whole VG thread is
>great, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it, but I do feel this point should be
>made. Cautious Lar.
>
>Larry Bourne
>Palm Springs, CA
>Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB
>www.gogittum.com
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Richard Pike" <rwpike@charter.net>
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FW: vortex generators
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
> >
> > These are interesting ideas - Does a Super Cub wing have washout? In a
>wing
> > that had washout, it would seem that you could have the vg's at a constant
> > distance back from the LE and have the root stall first and the tips last
> > with the ailerons being effective until the stall. But that would still
>not
> > have the ailerons effective after the stall. (Is that really possible? It
> > is not on my MKIII that I can tell. They work great until the stall, then
> > the whole wing is stalled, it has totally quit, period, it's over)
> >
> > Perhaps having the vg's in front of the ailerons "too far forward" is a
>way
> > of having the Super Cub ailerons still able to do something, even if the
> > wing has stalled. (Assuming that is really true, it could just be
> > marketing) So the question is- would you still have at least some useful
> > airflow and control -even if not attached to the upper wing- in the
> > vicinity of the ailerons if you had "too far forward" vg's in front of
> > them? And does this work on Super Cub wings but not on ours since the
> > airfoils/ailerons are different?
> >
> > Richard Pike
> > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> >
> >
> > At 09:02 AM 10/28/03 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <rrodebush@tema.net>
> > >
> > >After thinking about this I may have missed your point. My theory would
> > >apply to a flat wing. If the wing is built with washout I don't
> > >understand why the vg's would be staggered' as the washout would take
>care
> > >of aileron control. Way over my head here.
> > >
> > >Rex Rodebush
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Rex Rodebush
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 8:47 AM
> > > > To: 'kolb-list@matronics.com'
> > > > Subject: vortex generators
> > > >
> > > > That's what I'm thinking. On the Super Cub, the vg's in front of the
> > > ailerons are more forward and the vg's at the root of the wing are
> > > back. Perhaps if all were in the forward position the wing would stall
> > > at the slowest speed (highest angle) but without aileron control. By
> > > moving the vg's back at the root it makes the root stall first so you
> > > maintain aileron control.
> > > >
> > > > Rex Rodebush
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
> > > > > Don Gherardini-
> > > > > FireFly 098
> > > > >
> > > > .....Or....could the stagger be related to a wing that
> > > has..........washout?
> > > >
> > > > George Randolph
> > > > Firestar Driver from The Villages (for 2 weeks)
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: destinations/Bahamas |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
In a message dated 10/28/2003 10:41:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ppetty@c-gate.net writes:
Bob,
That sounds like a heck of a lot of fun. What about landing on secluded
beaches?
pp
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious"
<bbrocious@hotmail.com>
>
> Paul,
> I flew my wife to the Bahamas in a rented Cherokee 180 a few years ago for
> our anniversary. It was my first over water and my first outside the US.
> You file a flight plan and declare a time you will cross the Defense Zone
> and check in with Bahamamian Customs going over and U.S. Customs on the
way
> back. The scary part is all that water! I bought a GPS just to give me
the
> peace of mind that I was headed in the right direction. I dream of flying
a
> float equipped Kolb around the islands. One day ... . But there are LOTS
> of landing strips over there. It would be way cool to do that with other
> pilots.
> Bob
> N57MB "Miss B" Mark III Classic
>
> >From: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
> >Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> >To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
> >Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:39:32 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
> >
> >Hey
> >
> >You hush now!!!
> >That is my secret plan. Now I am going to have John
> >the Hawk beat to it before I am done building my M3X.
> >In fact its in advanced planing stage as we speak.
> >
> >do not archive.
> >
> >
> >--- Paul Petty <ppetty@c-gate.net> wrote:
> > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty"
> > > <ppetty@c-gate.net>
> > >
> > > Kolbers,
> > > Reading your post about the Alaska trip gives me
> > > goose bumps. Due to my work, It will be many years
> > > before I will be able to take a month off to make a
> > > trip like that.
> > > One destination I plan to make when I become good
> > > enough to navigate long cross countries is the
> > > Bahamas. I have read allot about the islands and it
> > > looks like a super place to spend a week or so
> > > flying around finding secluded beaches with a tent
> > > and fishing rod. It's only like 45 miles from Ft.
> > > Lauderdale FL to the first island of Bimini. What a
> > > wonderful place to explore.
> > > Nothing like Alaska I'm sure but a dang close
> > > second. And doable for me within the next year or
> > > so.
> > > Anybody in to this or know of rules that they don't
> > > tell you about in the brochures?
> > > www.flying.bahamas.com
> > >
> > > pp
> > >
> > > do not archive
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Contributions
> > > any other
> > > Forums.
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm
> > > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >=====
> >Ron
> >Building M3X
> >Southern Arizona
> >
> >__________________________________
> >Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> >http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
> >
> >
>
>
> Bob, Kathleen, and Kory Brocious
> Tenacity Farm
> Campbellsburg, Kentucky
>
What about the fella that flew to Sun N Fun from Venezuela ...er....was it
Oshkosh...yea, I think it was Oshkosh and he had stuffed a buncha foam and stuff
in the wings!! Isn't there enough bouyancy in the volume of wing and a little
bit of fuselage using closed cell foam.......and maybe even the tube to keep
the puppy afloat if these areas were sealed off in case of engine
failure?....I dunno, just asking....but that fella did it with a Phantom, which
has about
the same construction volume as the Kolb. As a matter of fact, I think the
Kolb has a higher lift, due to a thicker wing than the Phantom. If you can put
a tent in there, ya oughta be able to put foam in there.
George Randolph
Firestar driver from the Villages
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: destinations/Bahamas |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
Kolb'ers,
During the sailing season there are frequent floatillas of sailing and power
craft traveling together to the Bahamas for safety and commradarie. Perhaps
we could hook up with one of them to chaperon us across the water?
Bob
do not archive
>From: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
>Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:42:09 -0600
>
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
>
>Bob,
>That sounds like a heck of a lot of fun. What about landing on secluded
>beaches?
>
>pp
>do not archive
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious"
><bbrocious@hotmail.com>
> >
> > Paul,
> > I flew my wife to the Bahamas in a rented Cherokee 180 a few years ago
>for
> > our anniversary. It was my first over water and my first outside the
>US.
> > You file a flight plan and declare a time you will cross the Defense
>Zone
> > and check in with Bahamamian Customs going over and U.S. Customs on the
>way
> > back. The scary part is all that water! I bought a GPS just to give me
>the
> > peace of mind that I was headed in the right direction. I dream of
>flying
>a
> > float equipped Kolb around the islands. One day ... . But there are
>LOTS
> > of landing strips over there. It would be way cool to do that with
>other
> > pilots.
> > Bob
> > N57MB "Miss B" Mark III Classic
> >
> > >From: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
> > >Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> > >To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> > >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
> > >Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:39:32 -0800 (PST)
> > >
> > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
> > >
> > >Hey
> > >
> > >You hush now!!!
> > >That is my secret plan. Now I am going to have John
> > >the Hawk beat to it before I am done building my M3X.
> > >In fact its in advanced planing stage as we speak.
> > >
> > >do not archive.
> > >
> > >
> > >--- Paul Petty <ppetty@c-gate.net> wrote:
> > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty"
> > > > <ppetty@c-gate.net>
> > > >
> > > > Kolbers,
> > > > Reading your post about the Alaska trip gives me
> > > > goose bumps. Due to my work, It will be many years
> > > > before I will be able to take a month off to make a
> > > > trip like that.
> > > > One destination I plan to make when I become good
> > > > enough to navigate long cross countries is the
> > > > Bahamas. I have read allot about the islands and it
> > > > looks like a super place to spend a week or so
> > > > flying around finding secluded beaches with a tent
> > > > and fishing rod. It's only like 45 miles from Ft.
> > > > Lauderdale FL to the first island of Bimini. What a
> > > > wonderful place to explore.
> > > > Nothing like Alaska I'm sure but a dang close
> > > > second. And doable for me within the next year or
> > > > so.
> > > > Anybody in to this or know of rules that they don't
> > > > tell you about in the brochures?
> > > > www.flying.bahamas.com
> > > >
> > > > pp
> > > >
> > > > do not archive
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Contributions
> > > > any other
> > > > Forums.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm
> > > > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >=====
> > >Ron
> > >Building M3X
> > >Southern Arizona
> > >
> > >__________________________________
> > >Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> > >http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Bob, Kathleen, and Kory Brocious
> > Tenacity Farm
> > Campbellsburg, Kentucky
> >
> >
>
>
Bob, Kathleen, and Kory Brocious
Tenacity Farm
Campbellsburg, Kentucky
Never get a busy signal because you are always connected with high-speed
Internet access. Click here to comparison-shop providers.
https://broadband.msn.com
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: destinations |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
In a message dated 10/28/2003 11:40:15 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tophera@centurytel.net writes:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher J Armstrong"
<tophera@centurytel.net>
At a 6 to 1 glide ratio it would be 3.75 miles or 19800 feet, if the
kolb can make 8 to 1 then 2.81 miles or 15000 feet I dont think your
going to want to be that high for any length of time!
I measured my Firestar at 9:1 which would be a little better not requiring so
high an altitude, but with floatation, in the wings and tube I bet it is
totally doable
GeorgeRandolph
Message 38
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
In a message dated 10/28/2003 12:11:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
dralle@matronics.com writes:
Let me see what I can come up with. I have plenty of bandwidth and system
horsepower to support a live chat server for the Lists. I will find
something and get it working. Consider it my mission...
Matt Dralle
List Admin
You are a great man, Matt Dralle
George Randolph
Message 39
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|
| Subject: | Re: Tail Surface VG Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
My vote is to put them on the opposite side of the desired result. VGs are
used to improve the boundary flow, to eliminate flow separation. Since you
are in essence increasing the angle of attack of the rudder, you want the
flow to stay on the right side when you input a left rudder so I'd put them
on the right side. Of course this might be all the result of my medication.
<GRIN>
Cy Galley
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack & Louise Hart" <jbhart@ldd.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Surface VG Effects
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
>
> At 10:31 AM 10/28/03 -0500, you wrote:
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
> +++++++++++++++++++
> >
> >My so-called "intuition" (which I don't trust much any more since it was
a major factor in leading me into 38 years of matrimony....) says to put the
VG's on the left side of the vertical fin to increase the effectiveness of
left rudder inputs.... but I really don't know for sure, and would hate to
hang the junk on the wrong side of the tail and then have to remove it
later..
> >
> >So my questions: Which side of the vertical fin do they go on, and about
how far ahead of the rudder leading edge? Also, is there value in putting
VG's on the bottom of the horizontal stab to boost up-elevator effectiveness
in the landing flare? Mine seems weak when the ailerons are drooped any....
> >
>
> Beauford
>
> I have some VG's temporarily taped to the bottom of the horizontal
stabilizer because I wanted to get some more back stick. The first take off
indicated they were working because there is more back pressure on the stick
to return to the neutral position.
>
> They can be seen at:
>
> http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly62.html
>
> And that is the neat thing about VG's is that you can mount them
temporarily with electrician tape. If you guess wrong or you want to try
them in another position, you can easily remove and put them back on. And
if you decide they are worth the end result, you can permanently mount them.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Jackson, MO
>
>
> Jack & Louise Hart
> jbhart@ldd.net
>
>
Message 40
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|
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
I like this guy!
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 09:09 AM 10/28/03 -0800, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
>
>Let me see what I can come up with. I have plenty of bandwidth and system
>horsepower to support a live chat server for the Lists. I will find
>something and get it working. Consider it my mission...
>
>Matt Dralle
>List Admin
do not archive
Message 41
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|
| Subject: | Re: destinations/Bahamas |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
Bahamas law enforcement, such as it is, restricts pilots from landing on
beaches except in emergencies.
do not archive
>From: GeoR38@aol.com
>Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:26:04 EST
>
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 10/28/2003 10:41:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>ppetty@c-gate.net writes:
>Bob,
>That sounds like a heck of a lot of fun. What about landing on secluded
>beaches?
>
>pp
>do not archive
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious"
><bbrocious@hotmail.com>
> >
> > Paul,
> > I flew my wife to the Bahamas in a rented Cherokee 180 a few years ago
>for
> > our anniversary. It was my first over water and my first outside the
>US.
> > You file a flight plan and declare a time you will cross the Defense
>Zone
> > and check in with Bahamamian Customs going over and U.S. Customs on the
>way
> > back. The scary part is all that water! I bought a GPS just to give me
>the
> > peace of mind that I was headed in the right direction. I dream of
>flying
>a
> > float equipped Kolb around the islands. One day ... . But there are
>LOTS
> > of landing strips over there. It would be way cool to do that with
>other
> > pilots.
> > Bob
> > N57MB "Miss B" Mark III Classic
> >
> > >From: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
> > >Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> > >To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> > >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
> > >Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:39:32 -0800 (PST)
> > >
> > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
> > >
> > >Hey
> > >
> > >You hush now!!!
> > >That is my secret plan. Now I am going to have John
> > >the Hawk beat to it before I am done building my M3X.
> > >In fact its in advanced planing stage as we speak.
> > >
> > >do not archive.
> > >
> > >
> > >--- Paul Petty <ppetty@c-gate.net> wrote:
> > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty"
> > > > <ppetty@c-gate.net>
> > > >
> > > > Kolbers,
> > > > Reading your post about the Alaska trip gives me
> > > > goose bumps. Due to my work, It will be many years
> > > > before I will be able to take a month off to make a
> > > > trip like that.
> > > > One destination I plan to make when I become good
> > > > enough to navigate long cross countries is the
> > > > Bahamas. I have read allot about the islands and it
> > > > looks like a super place to spend a week or so
> > > > flying around finding secluded beaches with a tent
> > > > and fishing rod. It's only like 45 miles from Ft.
> > > > Lauderdale FL to the first island of Bimini. What a
> > > > wonderful place to explore.
> > > > Nothing like Alaska I'm sure but a dang close
> > > > second. And doable for me within the next year or
> > > > so.
> > > > Anybody in to this or know of rules that they don't
> > > > tell you about in the brochures?
> > > > www.flying.bahamas.com
> > > >
> > > > pp
> > > >
> > > > do not archive
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Contributions
> > > > any other
> > > > Forums.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm
> > > > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >=====
> > >Ron
> > >Building M3X
> > >Southern Arizona
> > >
> > >__________________________________
> > >Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> > >http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Bob, Kathleen, and Kory Brocious
> > Tenacity Farm
> > Campbellsburg, Kentucky
> >
>What about the fella that flew to Sun N Fun from Venezuela ...er....was it
>Oshkosh...yea, I think it was Oshkosh and he had stuffed a buncha foam and
>stuff
>in the wings!! Isn't there enough bouyancy in the volume of wing and a
>little
>bit of fuselage using closed cell foam.......and maybe even the tube to
>keep
>the puppy afloat if these areas were sealed off in case of engine
>failure?....I dunno, just asking....but that fella did it with a Phantom,
>which has about
>the same construction volume as the Kolb. As a matter of fact, I think the
>Kolb has a higher lift, due to a thicker wing than the Phantom. If you
>can put
>a tent in there, ya oughta be able to put foam in there.
>
>George Randolph
>Firestar driver from the Villages
>
>
Bob, Kathleen, and Kory Brocious
Tenacity Farm
Campbellsburg, Kentucky
online from McAfee.
Message 42
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|
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
Could be worse. If you had a Quicksilver, you would need 40,000'...
And a tailwind...
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 10:39 AM 10/28/03 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher J Armstrong"
><tophera@centurytel.net>
>
>
>At a 6 to 1 glide ratio it would be 3.75 miles or 19800 feet, if the
>kolb can make 8 to 1 then 2.81 miles or 15000 feet I dont think your
>going to want to be that high for any length of time!
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim" <flykolb@carolina.rr.com>
>
>What altitude would you need to have to glide 22.5 miles in case of an
>engine out?
>
>Jim
>Mark III
do not archive
Message 43
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|
| Subject: | Re: M3X Wing mods? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: <rowedl@highstream.net>
> Please clarify this for me,, when you say "aluminum
> angle", do you mean an L shaped angle?
> Ron
> Building M3X
> Southern Arizona
Ron,
Yes, they are refering to a 1/2" X 1/2" aluminum angle that is 1/16" thick,
I have the tip ribs so configured on my Mk-3. Check your plans closely, I am
sure the mod would have been mentioned in the Extras plans for the tip ribs.
My Mk-3 was hit #90 from 1992 and this mod was in the small supplimental
drawings.
Sincerely,
Dennis Rowe, Mk-3, PA
Message 44
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
That's great Matt! The main thing I like about Yahoo is the instant message program.
Lets you see who's online and allows you to chat directly with that person.
And file transfers.They are fast and with a digital camera you could snap
a photo and sent it instantly.
What about this Matt? Is that possible as well?
pp
pushing my luck
do not archive
Message 45
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| Subject: | Vortex generators installed |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
Topher,
At 09:35 PM 10/27/03 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher J Armstrong" <tophera@centurytel.net>
>
>But At cruise there should not be separation on the wing, that should
>only occur during high aoa flight.
I agree, and I do not believe there is separation at cruise with FireFly.
>Remember that laminar flow has really low drag, but we dont have much
>if any laminar flow on these fabric wings. So I was just pointing out
>that using the vgs as a turbulator to trip the laminar flow to get
>turbulent flow just doesnt apply to a Kolb.
Again, I agree. The point here is not to set them at any higher angle than necessary
to get the desired effect. This minimizes VG drag. One wants to spin
the air about an axis perpendicular to the surface.
>What the VGs are doing in
>this case is delaying separation. If your plane is flying along at
>cruise with separated flow on the wings that is really bad. But the vgs
>would reduce drag and improve control if that is the case.
I do not believe this is the case with the FireFly. I believe something more subtle
is happening and you have already alluded to it. The VG's keep the attached
boundary layer thinner than with out them. This alone should reduce some
drag during cruise.
After I had replaced the original ailerons with nine inch chord ailerons, I discovered
there was a dead spot from stick neutral of about an inch right or left.
I had used smaller tubing for the leading part of the aileron (torque tube)
to save a little weight. I assumed this was the cause. After the VG's were
installed this dead spot went away, which indicates better flow over the ailerons,
and perhaps, an overall thinner boundary layer at the wing trailing edge
than before. This is what makes it such a delight to fly the FireFly in the middle
of the day in unstable air. Before one could not stay a head of the FireFly
in roll and my shoulder (old) would become sore trying to keep the wings
level. With the VG's, there is no stick movement just pressure felt and applied
to the stick to let the FireFly fly on through with the wings level. And best
of all, by shoulder does not get sore.
>How heavy are you flying the Firefly?
In flight weight should be some where around 480 pounds.
>How do you have the ailerons rigged?
They are level with the bottom of the wing with neutral stick and with some down
load applied to the trailing edge. Maximum up/down with me in the seat is about
20 degrees.
This has been fun.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: destinations/Bahamas |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Strikes me that if one made it across to the Bahamas in a Rotax powered
Kolb, one will automatically qualify for emergency status by the time one
locates the beach...
Whaddya think?
beauford
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious"
<bbrocious@hotmail.com>
>
> Bahamas law enforcement, such as it is, restricts pilots from landing on
> beaches except in emergencies.
>
> do not archive
>
> >From: GeoR38@aol.com
> >Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> >To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
> >Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:26:04 EST
> >
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
> >
> >In a message dated 10/28/2003 10:41:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> >ppetty@c-gate.net writes:
> >Bob,
> >That sounds like a heck of a lot of fun. What about landing on secluded
> >beaches?
> >
> >pp
> >do not archive
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
> >To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
> >
> >
> > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious"
> ><bbrocious@hotmail.com>
> > >
> > > Paul,
> > > I flew my wife to the Bahamas in a rented Cherokee 180 a few years ago
> >for
> > > our anniversary. It was my first over water and my first outside the
> >US.
> > > You file a flight plan and declare a time you will cross the Defense
> >Zone
> > > and check in with Bahamamian Customs going over and U.S. Customs on
the
> >way
> > > back. The scary part is all that water! I bought a GPS just to give
me
> >the
> > > peace of mind that I was headed in the right direction. I dream of
> >flying
> >a
> > > float equipped Kolb around the islands. One day ... . But there are
> >LOTS
> > > of landing strips over there. It would be way cool to do that with
> >other
> > > pilots.
> > > Bob
> > > N57MB "Miss B" Mark III Classic
> > >
> > > >From: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
> > > >Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> > > >To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> > > >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
> > > >Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:39:32 -0800 (PST)
> > > >
> > > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
> > > >
> > > >Hey
> > > >
> > > >You hush now!!!
> > > >That is my secret plan. Now I am going to have John
> > > >the Hawk beat to it before I am done building my M3X.
> > > >In fact its in advanced planing stage as we speak.
> > > >
> > > >do not archive.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >--- Paul Petty <ppetty@c-gate.net> wrote:
> > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty"
> > > > > <ppetty@c-gate.net>
> > > > >
> > > > > Kolbers,
> > > > > Reading your post about the Alaska trip gives me
> > > > > goose bumps. Due to my work, It will be many years
> > > > > before I will be able to take a month off to make a
> > > > > trip like that.
> > > > > One destination I plan to make when I become good
> > > > > enough to navigate long cross countries is the
> > > > > Bahamas. I have read allot about the islands and it
> > > > > looks like a super place to spend a week or so
> > > > > flying around finding secluded beaches with a tent
> > > > > and fishing rod. It's only like 45 miles from Ft.
> > > > > Lauderdale FL to the first island of Bimini. What a
> > > > > wonderful place to explore.
> > > > > Nothing like Alaska I'm sure but a dang close
> > > > > second. And doable for me within the next year or
> > > > > so.
> > > > > Anybody in to this or know of rules that they don't
> > > > > tell you about in the brochures?
> > > > > www.flying.bahamas.com
> > > > >
> > > > > pp
> > > > >
> > > > > do not archive
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Contributions
> > > > > any other
> > > > > Forums.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > > > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm
> > > > > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > > > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > > > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >=====
> > > >Ron
> > > >Building M3X
> > > >Southern Arizona
> > > >
> > > >__________________________________
> > > >Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> > > >http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bob, Kathleen, and Kory Brocious
> > > Tenacity Farm
> > > Campbellsburg, Kentucky
> > >
> >What about the fella that flew to Sun N Fun from Venezuela ...er....was
it
> >Oshkosh...yea, I think it was Oshkosh and he had stuffed a buncha foam
and
> >stuff
> >in the wings!! Isn't there enough bouyancy in the volume of wing and a
> >little
> >bit of fuselage using closed cell foam.......and maybe even the tube to
> >keep
> >the puppy afloat if these areas were sealed off in case of engine
> >failure?....I dunno, just asking....but that fella did it with a Phantom,
> >which has about
> >the same construction volume as the Kolb. As a matter of fact, I think
the
> >Kolb has a higher lift, due to a thicker wing than the Phantom. If you
> >can put
> >a tent in there, ya oughta be able to put foam in there.
> >
> >George Randolph
> >Firestar driver from the Villages
> >
> >
>
>
> Bob, Kathleen, and Kory Brocious
> Tenacity Farm
> Campbellsburg, Kentucky
>
> online from McAfee.
>
>
Message 47
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
The main thing I like about Yahoo is
> the instant message program.
> What about this Matt? Is that possible as well?
>
> pp
Paul/All:
I am not Matt, but the other alternative would be ICQ. I
have been hooked up to it for years. Cost nothing. No
popups or other ads. Brother Jim and I have a direct
connection 24/7. We used to conference chat with other old
SF guys. File transfer and pictures are a breeze.
If anyone is interested, here is my ICQ handle and number:
hawk36
7076831
Go here to download a copy of ICQ Instant Messenger to
install on your computer:
http://www.icq.com/download/
Once you get it downloaded and installed you can search for
other folks with similar ideas/hobbies/lifestyles, etc., to
get their ICQ numbers. The ICQ number is all that is needed
to add them to your ICQ List.
Matt: If I am out of line sharing info about ICQ on the
Kolb List let me know and I will stand admonished.
Take care,
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 48
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr ASC/TM <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
CaptainRon wrote:
>How was the Verner?
>I saw it on static display at Copper State, couldn't
>make up my mind about it. Looked kinda rough built.
>Ron
Bob Bean wrote:
The old Franklin 6 was a little on the crude side too, the crank looked like
it had been hewn with an ax......but it was a good engine. -BB
Ron, and Kolbers -
The Czech Republic has a broad automotive industrial base dating back to
WW-1. The foundries that Verner's engine blocks are made are likely the
same ones (tooling, etc.) that churned out engines for the axis powers
aircraft in WW-2. Except today, using modern metallurgy (case is made of
magnesium alloy). Result is engines with that "old world" look of roughness
on the outside. It's what's inside that matters - my Verner runs as smooth
at 3600 rpm cruise as my old BMW moto at 55.
Dennis Kirby
Mark-3 in
Cedar Crest, NM
do not archive
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: Tail Surface VG Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Jack:
Thanks for the horizontal stab info... I looked carefully at your
picture... I will crank some more VG's out and stick them under there...
Re; the rudder issue...
Would you recommend installing them on both sides of the vertical fin, or
only on one side?
Appreciative Beauford
FF #076
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack & Louise Hart" <jbhart@ldd.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Surface VG Effects
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
>
> At 10:31 AM 10/28/03 -0500, you wrote:
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
> +++++++++++++++++++
> >
> >My so-called "intuition" (which I don't trust much any more since it was
a major factor in leading me into 38 years of matrimony....) says to put the
VG's on the left side of the vertical fin to increase the effectiveness of
left rudder inputs.... but I really don't know for sure, and would hate to
hang the junk on the wrong side of the tail and then have to remove it
later..
> >
> >So my questions: Which side of the vertical fin do they go on, and about
how far ahead of the rudder leading edge? Also, is there value in putting
VG's on the bottom of the horizontal stab to boost up-elevator effectiveness
in the landing flare? Mine seems weak when the ailerons are drooped any....
> >
>
> Beauford
>
> I have some VG's temporarily taped to the bottom of the horizontal
stabilizer because I wanted to get some more back stick. The first take off
indicated they were working because there is more back pressure on the stick
to return to the neutral position.
>
> They can be seen at:
>
> http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly62.html
>
> And that is the neat thing about VG's is that you can mount them
temporarily with electrician tape. If you guess wrong or you want to try
them in another position, you can easily remove and put them back on. And
if you decide they are worth the end result, you can permanently mount them.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Jackson, MO
>
>
> Jack & Louise Hart
> jbhart@ldd.net
>
>
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: Tail Surface VG Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Cy:
We ALL take medication for one thing or another.... (more GRIN)
Thankee for your input, Sir... We'll hide and watch where these learned
gentlemen take this question...
Beauford
The Aluminum Butcher of Brandon, FL
FF #076
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Surface VG Effects
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>
> My vote is to put them on the opposite side of the desired result. VGs
are
> used to improve the boundary flow, to eliminate flow separation. Since you
> are in essence increasing the angle of attack of the rudder, you want the
> flow to stay on the right side when you input a left rudder so I'd put
them
> on the right side. Of course this might be all the result of my
medication.
> <GRIN>
>
> Cy Galley
> Editor, EAA Safety Programs
> cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jack & Louise Hart" <jbhart@ldd.net>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Surface VG Effects
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
> >
> > At 10:31 AM 10/28/03 -0500, you wrote:
> > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
> > +++++++++++++++++++
> > >
> > >My so-called "intuition" (which I don't trust much any more since it
was
> a major factor in leading me into 38 years of matrimony....) says to put
the
> VG's on the left side of the vertical fin to increase the effectiveness of
> left rudder inputs.... but I really don't know for sure, and would hate to
> hang the junk on the wrong side of the tail and then have to remove it
> later..
> > >
> > >So my questions: Which side of the vertical fin do they go on, and
about
> how far ahead of the rudder leading edge? Also, is there value in putting
> VG's on the bottom of the horizontal stab to boost up-elevator
effectiveness
> in the landing flare? Mine seems weak when the ailerons are drooped
any....
> > >
> >
> > Beauford
> >
> > I have some VG's temporarily taped to the bottom of the horizontal
> stabilizer because I wanted to get some more back stick. The first take
off
> indicated they were working because there is more back pressure on the
stick
> to return to the neutral position.
> >
> > They can be seen at:
> >
> > http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly62.html
> >
> > And that is the neat thing about VG's is that you can mount them
> temporarily with electrician tape. If you guess wrong or you want to try
> them in another position, you can easily remove and put them back on. And
> if you decide they are worth the end result, you can permanently mount
them.
> >
> > Jack B. Hart FF004
> > Jackson, MO
> >
> >
> > Jack & Louise Hart
> > jbhart@ldd.net
> >
> >
>
>
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: destinations/Bahamas |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Ron/All:
> Never been a problem and
> was lotsa fun.
That was why it "was lotsa fun".
You lucked out and "never had a problem".
As long as we don't have problems, we don't have problems
and have lotsa fun.
It only takes one time.............
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 52
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Laird <rlaird@cavediver.com>
You can also use a product like Trillian, which will do ALL FIVE IMs: AOL,
ICQ, Yahoo, MSN and mIRC.
http://www.ceruleanstudios.com/products/overview_basic.php
-- Robert
DO NOT ARCHIVE
At 03:04 PM 10/28/2003, you wrote:
>Go here to download a copy of ICQ Instant Messenger to
>install on your computer:
>
>http://www.icq.com/download/
>
>Once you get it downloaded and installed you can search for
>other folks with similar ideas/hobbies/lifestyles, etc., to
>get their ICQ numbers. The ICQ number is all that is needed
>to add them to your ICQ List.
>
>Matt: If I am out of line sharing info about ICQ on the
>Kolb List let me know and I will stand admonished.
>
>Take care,
>
>john h
>
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: Tail Surface VG Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Thanks Much, George....
The VG's on the Fly's wings were put on with that VHB foam tape, and I have
yet to lose one in a year or so... The tape is a great product as far as I
am concerned...
I am currently prepared to add VG's to my forehead and under both armpits if
it will make the rudder problem manageable.... I will move them around as
necessary... and I will gleefully use the foam tape if it comes to that....
My left foot is tired from that rudder....and it is currently the only
remaining original part I own that still works almost to specifications...
I'm worried about it....
Regards,
Beauford
P.S. I give up... What in chrome-plated hell is a "twilly", and do the cops
know you have it?
b.
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: <GeoR38@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Surface VG Effects
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 10/28/2003 10:31:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> beauford@tampabay.rr.com writes:
> Any kindness from persons with knowledge of these matters would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
> Regards,
>
> Beauford
> FF#076
> Brandon, FL
> I don't know much or really anything about VG's Beauford, but I do know a
bit
> about tape. You or anyone could experiement with VG's I'll bet, by
attaching
> some double backed VHB (very high bonding) 1/32" foam tape to the bottom
of
> each VG and be secure in the tenacity of those babies during
experimentation.
> This stuff is available all over he place now even at Dollar stores, for
hanging
> pictures and other seemingly risky ventures. I personally use it on one of
my
> Aerotoys to hold Dubro Hinges on my Twilly....sounds personal, I know, but
it
> is on the up and up....I actually have a patent on the puppy. VHB adhesive
> will flow over time into the most microscopic of recesses thereby
increasing
> holding power. Just the opposite of most curing adhesives.
>
> George Randolph
> Firestar driver from....The Villages?
>
>
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: destinations/Bahamas |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> Strikes me that if one made it across to the Bahamas in a
> Rotax powered Kolb, one will automatically qualify for
> emergency status by the time one locates the beach...
> Whaddya think?
>
> beauford
Beauford/All:
We hope not.
I do not know of any Kolb's that have done the flight to the
Bahamas. For that matter, don't know of but one ultralight
that did it some 17 or 18 years ago. It was a flying boat,
a single place Buccaneer powered by a Rotax 447 single carb
point ign two stroke. That was all we had at the time. The
pilot was an old UL buddy of mine, Roland Alexander. Met
Roland on my first long XC in November 1987, at the Florida
Flying Gators Airstrip.
The Pioneer that did the Caribbean flight used inflated
condoms for flotation and a lot of luck.
Take care,
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 55
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jim Clayton <jspc78@yahoo.com>
Bob Bean <slyck@frontiernet.net> wrote:
-???? you'll still have a 30' wing span and the same
loading, The extra
ribs won't help.
If you want to get a little extra security go Mr.
Hauck's jury strut
route. -BB
do not archive
Bob/All,
Not sure what you mean; I'm not trying to strengthen
the 6 inch spar (or the lift struts), only to spread
the load over more ribs, thereby reducing the load
each rib is subjected to.
Regarding the lift struts, I agree. The Jury struts
on Mr. Hauck's plane looks like a great idea.
-Jim
Jim Clayton
California
Mark-3X, Building
Message 56
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
Good idea John. I used to use ICQ years ago.
pp
do not archive
Message 57
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "James and Cathy Tripp" <jtripp@elmore.rr.com>
The translation for you northerners is:
Those are Kolbs.
Those are not Kolbs.
They are too.
See the wings.
Well I be, those are Kolbs
James Tripp
FSII
Do not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher J Armstrong" <tophera@centurytel.net>
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb Humor
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher J Armstrong"
<tophera@centurytel.net>
>
> I B 2 slow 4 U ( I DON'T GET IT)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Petty
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Humor
>
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
>
> Mr. Kolb's
> Mr. not Kolb's
> R2
> C.M. Wang's
> I.B.
> Mr. Kolb's
>
> I couldn't resist....:-)
>
> pp
> do not archive
>
>
> ==
> direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
> ==
> ==
> ==
>
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>
>
> ---
>
>
Message 58
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|
| Subject: | Re: New Mark III Instrument Pod |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jim Clayton <jspc78@yahoo.com>
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Email List Photo
Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Craig Nelson <vitalfx0@msn.com>
Subject: New Mark III Instrument Pod
Craig,
That instrument pod, and glare shield is amazing! I
imagined the exact instruments, and needing a larger
pod, however I don't have the skills with fiberglass
or carbon fiber. Would you be willing to build more
of them, and if so, what do you supose it might cost?
I really like the paint job on the panel.
do not archive
-Jim
Jim Clayton
California
Mark-3X, Building
Message 59
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| Subject: | Re: Tail Surface VG Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
Why not make about 3 slightly smaller than average double vaned vg's and
put them on the left side of the rudder about 10" or so ahead of the trim
tab? Might not do any good, but if you use tape, so what? Just an idea...
And if it works, let me know, because I need to find an identical fix. In
fact, if I haven't heard back from you by lunch tomorrow, I will be trying
it myself!
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 10:31 AM 10/28/03 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
>
>Listers;
>Have been following the wing VG thread and have learned a lot from the
>info exchanges...
>
>However, have seen only occasional references about the use of VG's on the
>tail for various purposes... mebbe one of you experimenters / engineers
>would be kind enough to help me sort out a little problem.
>
>The FireFly requires a little constant left rudder at cruise in order to
>make the yaw string stay at attention.... The rudder already has a big
>lexan trim tab installed on it; about 11 inches long with about 2 inches
>of it out in the breeze to the right at a 45 degree angle. That tab
>eases the left rudder need considerably, but does not remove it completely.
>
>My so-called "intuition" (which I don't trust much any more since it was a
>major factor in leading me into 38 years of matrimony....) says to put the
>VG's on the left side of the vertical fin to increase the effectiveness of
>left rudder inputs.... but I really don't know for sure, and would hate to
>hang the junk on the wrong side of the tail and then have to remove it later..
>
>So my questions: Which side of the vertical fin do they go on, and about
>how far ahead of the rudder leading edge? Also, is there value in putting
>VG's on the bottom of the horizontal stab to boost up-elevator
>effectiveness in the landing flare? Mine seems weak when the ailerons are
>drooped any....
>
>Any kindness from persons with knowledge of these matters would be greatly
>appreciated.
>
>Regards,
>
>Beauford
>FF#076
>Brandon, FL
>
>do not archive
>
>
Message 60
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| Subject: | Re: Tail Surface VG Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
Beauford,
On the vertical fin question, I would put a bunch on one side and fly and see what
happens.
Then I would put a bunch on the other side and fly again.
Next I would take off the first set and fly again.
Then I would decide what I would do next.
In two hours and three trips around the pattern, you can find your answer. When
you get the results, let us know how it turns out. If there is no desired effect
you are out two hours, but you got in three flights too.
I have had a similar problem of trying to get the ball to center. I was able to
washer (tilt) the engine to move it to within one half ball off center. Additional
washering in the same direction had no effect. One possible solution
was to slide the engine a little sideways, but at this stage it is too much work.
With the Victor 1+ having a belt reduction unit, my last hope is to elongate
the six bolt holes that hold the unit to the engine so I can rotate the unit
and move the propeller an inch or so to the right or left with out having to
move the engine, and get the ball to center. I have to make a puller etc.
If this is not possible, I will have to put a tab on the rudder or put some VG's
on the horizontal stabilizer. So I am anxious to hear how your experiment
comes out.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
At 04:27 PM 10/28/03 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
>
>Jack:
>Thanks for the horizontal stab info... I looked carefully at your
>picture... I will crank some more VG's out and stick them under there...
>Re; the rudder issue...
>Would you recommend installing them on both sides of the vertical fin, or
>only on one side?
>Appreciative Beauford
>FF #076
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 61
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| Subject: | Re: M3X Wing mods? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Jim/Ron
On page 4 (wings) of my site you can see an 1 extra rib on the outboard end
of the wing I installed. This was to hold the airfoil shape of the wing
farther out on the wing as the original design had what I believed was an
awful long taper to the wingtip in the bow area.
Anyway, you can see the alum angle attached to the bottom of the rib. It is
right alongside of the bottom of the rib, not below it, so the rib does not
gain any depth. On the next full rib back, you see an alum angle from the
leading edge up to the area of the top of the spar tube. This is there to
strengthen the D-Cell area. and according to the plans, is required on the
top and bottom on the last rib. After reading and talking to John Hauck,
about his adventures in flying a Firestar all the way to destruction, I
decided to do more than just the last rib..and placed alum angle on every
other rib for the full length in the D-Cell area, and for the full length of
the bottom on the last "extra" rib.Now, in Hindsight, I might have done
every one, as the weight factor was so small, and now, after Loading my
FireFly to gross for flight testing, and then overgross..I have discovered
that the factory Gross weight number(500lbs) is very conservative. At
least in terms of how the aircraft will handle...Likely those gross ratings
are to comply with a G-rating...and as long as you dont pull any
g's..........!!!!!!
I have tested it to 585 lbs and it still climbs like a demon on 38 horses
and does NOT fly like any certificated aircraft I have flown when at or
close to gross.(let alone overgross) ..it still feels like it could take a
whole lot more weight! (but it would need more room to pile it somewhere!)
My normal TOW is from 490 to 515 depending on how much gear I decide to pile
in.
I think that John can better address this than I, and I believe that it was
the D-cell secrion that failed on the Firestar wing wasnt it John???
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Don Gherardini-
FireFly 098
Message 62
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| Subject: | Re: M3X Wing mods? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> Regarding the lift struts, I agree. The Jury struts
> on Mr. Hauck's plane looks like a great idea.
>
> -Jim
Jim/All:
Who dis Mr. Hauck?
I was too young to be addressed at Mr Hauck when I went into
the Army, and too old to change once I retired.
Hauck, dummy, duffus, etc., will do just fine, but not Mr.
hehehe
The original plans for the MKIII indicated jury struts on
the lift struts. I wasn't planning on installing them, but
Homer Kolb requested I install them on Miss P'fer. I
honored his request and am glad I did. During the rather
sudden removal of my landing gear at Muncho Lake, BC, 1 July
2000, the jury strut saved the left lift strut when the
aircraft landed on the left main wheel and tire. I didn't
realize it until I got back to Alabama and was inspecting
the parts. There it was, a big black skid mark on the
bottom of the left lift strut. The jury strut prevented the
lift strut from being bent out of column.
I think I increased the strength of an already overbuilt
wing by making the mods I did during construction of my
MKIII. As John Cooley previously shared with the Kolb List,
I used 3/4 and 1/2 inch angle aluminum to reinforce the top
and bottom, front and rear, of the first four outboard ribs.
The remaining main ribs were reinforced top and bottom,
noses only, with the angle aluminum. Also of extreme
importance to me was to increase strength and reliability of
the horizontal bracing of the leading edge of the wing. To
do its job the wing forward of the main spare must stay in
place. My Firestar wings failed because of a lot of hard
overuse and failure of and lack of required horizontal bracing.
I have no numbers, formulas, or anything except personal
experience building, flying and breaking Homer Kolb's
airplanes. However, I feel I have built my particular MK
III to withstand anything that can be thrown at it during
the flights that I make and at the weights I fly. I think
this aircraft, Miss P'fer has more than adequately proven
this during the last 1900+ flight hours and the places and
hostile environment that she has been flown.
Correct me if I am wrong, but a lightly loaded airplane is
far easier to overstress in extreme turbulence than the same
make and model loaded much heavier. As the builder of my
airplane I had the privilege to state the Max Gross Weight
of it. I came up with 1,200 lbs, 200 lbs over what Homer
Kolb and Dennis Souder stated was their max gross. If
nothing else, the aircraft placard will cover me if I crash
and destroy the aircraft. At least the insurance company
will not be able to come back and say I was flying over
gross weight of the aircraft.
What I have shared with you is not gospel, but my thoughts
and the way I built and fly my airplane. All of which is
perfectly legal and above board. Insurance companies are in
business to make money and find any discrepancies, no
matter how small, to keep from paying your claim. Ask me
how I know.
The primary reason I overbuilt an overbuilt aircraft was for
the planned cross country flight in 1994, which resulted in
flight conditions that few of us will ever encounter.
Take care,
john h
PS: Reinforcing the rear of the outboard four main ribs
helped stiffen an area of the wing with little stiffness.
An area that carries the loads of the ailerons. Also braced
bow tip at 45 and 90 degs with 1/2 tubes with .032 alum web.
Message 63
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| Subject: | Kolb Porquepines |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Message 64
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| Subject: | Kolb Porcupines or Vortex Generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Gang:
How you guys wash those Kolb Porcupines with all those
little things sticking out of them?
I am afraid I'd be bleeding all over the airplane if I tried
to work in, on, or around them. Who had the record for the
most VG's stuck on one little airplane?
Hope I am not missing the boat by not sticking them all over
Miss P'fer. She told me she would fly with any porcupine
and perform just as well without them. :-) That's what
Miss P'fer said, not me. I just typed it for her cause she
can't type. That's the truth. She can't type.
Take care and don't take me serious. Life is much too short
for that.
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 65
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| Subject: | Re: destinations/Bahamas |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Yup, it's a great ride out there - I even enjoyed working my way thru
several controllers on SoCal Approach while crossing the Los Angeles basin,
and zig-zagging around John Wayne/Orange County airport and Camp Pendleton,
etc. Crossing the beach at Dana Point and aiming at a blue lump on the
horizon gives a funny feeling way down deep, but the destination is worth
it. John makes a good point about possible loss of the
airplane. Losing a rental plane, tho' almost unheard of, wouldn't upset me
too bad, cause I'm well insured, and so on..................but to lose
Vamoose would really hurt - insurance or not. Going down in the mountains,
or somesuch would be bad, too, but dumping it in 4,000+ ft of water is
pretty decisive. It's gone, baby. Swimmer Lar
Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "CaptainRon" <aerialron@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
>
> Hey Larry
> I used to flight instruct at RiverSide and also
> Compton and one of my routines was to fly to Catelina
> Island with every student. Never been a problem and
> was lotsa fun. They used to have Buffalo burgers in
> the restaurant in those days.
>
>
> But the Bahamas are different... Folks you gotta keep
> in mind the ***Bermuda Triangle** so until I am first
> across that puddle in a Kolb I would suggest that you
> all remember the "Bermuda Triangle" and Freddie, and
> Friday the 13th, and Alien... and the Flying Sharks.
> They are an evolutionary adaptation in response to Fly
> Boys. They jump out the water spring gray dragon wings
> fly up and snatch the pilot's head right out of their
> Kolbs. Leaving the headless body and aircraft to spin
> into the dark angry and very very deep water, not ever
> to be seen again.
>
>
> =======================
> do not archive
>
>
> --- Larry Bourne <biglar@gogittum.com> wrote:
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne"
> > <biglar@gogittum.com>
> >
> > I've made the flight to Santa Catalina Island, and
> > you can forget the "26
> > miles across the sea" that was in the
> > song............from Dana Point to the
> > airport is more like 35 miles or so. Went over the
> > coastline at 6,000 ft.,
> > and kept a steady slow climb going until way past
> > the center of the channel,
> > so's to give maximum gliding distance, just in case.
> > Also kept an eye on
> > which boats were where, in case I did have to ditch
> > - the closer to help the
> > better. One thing you hear about is
> > true...........the engine on that
> > Cessna 172 made a lot of strange noises (imagination
> > ??) on that
> > Loooooooonnnngg 35 miles. Will I do it again ??
> > You bet ! ! ! Will I be
> > comfortable when I cross the coastline ?? Nope ! !
> > ! Will I do it in
> > Vamoose ?? Uhhhh............that re-drive is gonna
> > hafta REALLY prove
> > itself, and I'd much prefer to have the plane on
> > floats. We'll see. Go
> > to the Bahamas ?? I'd love it ! ! ! Been dreaming
> > about that all my life.
> > Lar. Do not Archive.
> >
> > Larry Bourne
> > Palm Springs, CA
> > Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB
> > www.gogittum.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious"
> > <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
> > To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
> >
> >
> > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, &
> > Kory Brocious"
> > <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
> > >
> > > Paul,
> > > I flew my wife to the Bahamas in a rented Cherokee
> > 180 a few years ago for
> > > our anniversary. It was my first over water and
> > my first outside the US.
> > > You file a flight plan and declare a time you will
> > cross the Defense Zone
> > > and check in with Bahamamian Customs going over
> > and U.S. Customs on the
> > way
> > > back. The scary part is all that water! I bought
> > a GPS just to give me
> > the
> >
> >
> >
> > Contributions
> > any other
> > Forums.
> >
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm
> > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> =====
> Ron
> Building M3X
> Southern Arizona
>
> __________________________________
> Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
>
>
Message 66
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| Subject: | Re: FW: vortex generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
That was well said, and Vince's experience is definite food for thought.
Some months after my near disaster, and living in fear because of it, I went
for a ride with an instructor in a Cessna 150 and we did spins until I was
dizzy - both left and right - then Chandelles and wing-overs till I was
right on the edge of air-sick. Now I feel much better about the whole
thing............and, while I haven't spun a plane since, I'm much more
confident in my capabilities. I can very highly recommend doing this - you
don't hafta be a licensed pilot to go for a ride with an
instructor.........just make sure he knows what you want, and is willing to
go with it. It's exciting, too..............that 1st spin (and prob'ly the
2nd) will take your breath away. :-) By the 3rd or 4th, you'll be counting
turns and bringing it out on demand. What Fun ! ! ! OK - flame
away, you anti-spinners. Lar. Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Pike" <rwpike@charter.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FW: vortex generators
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
>
> Good point. So far, I have done a bunch of "normal" stalls, power on and
> off, accelerated stalls, turns left and right, but nothing at full power,
> especially with full power and full flaps, I suspect it might be more
> exciting than I could handle! (I suspect that high trust line would have
> you standing on your nose if you didn't get the throttle off fast enough!)
>
> I cautiously attempted a couple power off stalls straight ahead where it
> stalled and I held the stick back to see if it would enter a secondary
Message 67
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| Subject: | Re: destinations/Bahamas |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Ohhhhhhhhh....................I wanna gooooo ! ! ! Please wait - I'll
finish Vamoose, I promise..................! ! ! Do not
Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious"
<bbrocious@hotmail.com>
>
> Kolb'ers,
> During the sailing season there are frequent floatillas of sailing and
power
> craft traveling together to the Bahamas for safety and commradarie.
Perhaps
> we could hook up with one of them to chaperon us across the water?
> Bob
>
> do not archive
>
>
> >From: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
> >Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> >To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
> >Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:42:09 -0600
> >
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
> >
> >Bob,
> >That sounds like a heck of a lot of fun. What about landing on secluded
> >beaches?
> >
> >pp
> >do not archive
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
> >To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
> >
> >
> > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious"
> ><bbrocious@hotmail.com>
> > >
> > > Paul,
> > > I flew my wife to the Bahamas in a rented Cherokee 180 a few years ago
> >for
> > > our anniversary. It was my first over water and my first outside the
> >US.
> > > You file a flight plan and declare a time you will cross the Defense
> >Zone
> > > and check in with Bahamamian Customs going over and U.S. Customs on
the
> >way
> > > back. The scary part is all that water! I bought a GPS just to give
me
> >the
> > > peace of mind that I was headed in the right direction. I dream of
> >flying
> >a
> > > float equipped Kolb around the islands. One day ... . But there are
> >LOTS
> > > of landing strips over there. It would be way cool to do that with
> >other
> > > pilots.
> > > Bob
> > > N57MB "Miss B" Mark III Classic
> > >
> > > >From: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
> > > >Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> > > >To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> > > >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
> > > >Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:39:32 -0800 (PST)
> > > >
> > > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
> > > >
> > > >Hey
> > > >
> > > >You hush now!!!
> > > >That is my secret plan. Now I am going to have John
> > > >the Hawk beat to it before I am done building my M3X.
> > > >In fact its in advanced planing stage as we speak.
> > > >
> > > >do not archive.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >--- Paul Petty <ppetty@c-gate.net> wrote:
> > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty"
> > > > > <ppetty@c-gate.net>
> > > > >
> > > > > Kolbers,
> > > > > Reading your post about the Alaska trip gives me
> > > > > goose bumps. Due to my work, It will be many years
> > > > > before I will be able to take a month off to make a
> > > > > trip like that.
> > > > > One destination I plan to make when I become good
> > > > > enough to navigate long cross countries is the
> > > > > Bahamas. I have read allot about the islands and it
> > > > > looks like a super place to spend a week or so
> > > > > flying around finding secluded beaches with a tent
> > > > > and fishing rod. It's only like 45 miles from Ft.
> > > > > Lauderdale FL to the first island of Bimini. What a
> > > > > wonderful place to explore.
> > > > > Nothing like Alaska I'm sure but a dang close
> > > > > second. And doable for me within the next year or
> > > > > so.
> > > > > Anybody in to this or know of rules that they don't
> > > > > tell you about in the brochures?
> > > > > www.flying.bahamas.com
> > > > >
> > > > > pp
> > > > >
> > > > > do not archive
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Contributions
> > > > > any other
> > > > > Forums.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > > > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm
> > > > > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > > > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > > > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >=====
> > > >Ron
> > > >Building M3X
> > > >Southern Arizona
> > > >
> > > >__________________________________
> > > >Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> > > >http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bob, Kathleen, and Kory Brocious
> > > Tenacity Farm
> > > Campbellsburg, Kentucky
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> Bob, Kathleen, and Kory Brocious
> Tenacity Farm
> Campbellsburg, Kentucky
>
> Never get a busy signal because you are always connected with high-speed
> Internet access. Click here to comparison-shop providers.
> https://broadband.msn.com
>
>
Message 68
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Now there ya go..ICQ is dandy for those chores..I use it also..have for
years....
I am Dagger ICQ # 19966028
I have it set for authorization only..so if you plug me into your ICQ
list...mention the Kolb list! Ill authorize
and NO, I aint evil...it stands for Donald Anthony Gherardini!
my 1st Flight instructor gave me the handle back at Spartan...he liked using
a fellas initials....when he asked, and I suggested Dagwood...he
howled...that aint no call-sign fer no mig-killing SOB in my squadron...YOU
will be DAGGER!
of course..I said...YES SIR! <S>
that was 1974......arghhh.....what memories!
Do not archive
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Don Gherardini-
FireFly 098
Message 69
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| Subject: | Re: Yahoo hanger |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "bryan green" <lgreen1@sc.rr.com>
Hey matt this is a great site and I thank you for hosting it. I don't think
Paul meant for anyone to move, just another forum for exchange.
Bryan Green Elgin SC
Firestar I 377 BRS----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle@matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Yahoo hanger
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
>
> Thank you, John!
>
> I really appreciate that vote of confidence! I'm hoping that all of the
> Kolb-Listers are feeling the way that you do. I put a lot of work into
> making the Matronics lists what they are -- high-performance, ad-free,
> virus-free, and, um, free... (Well, except for the Fund Raiser. :-) )
>
> Thanks again for the vote of confidence!
>
> Matt Dralle
> List Admin
>
>
> At 08:18 PM 10/27/2003 Monday, you wrote:
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson"
<kolbrapilot@comcast.net>
> >
> >Paul and all,
> >
> >I think a lot of us use Matronic's because we don't have to put up with
all
> >the pop-up ads and extra junk.
> >
> >I'm staying right here.
> >
> >
> >John Williamson
> >Arlington, TX
> >
> >Kolb Kolbra, SN: 008, Jabiru 2200, 497 hours
> >http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot/
> >
> >do not archive
>
>
> Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
> 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
> http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
>
>
Message 70
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|
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Not really Kolb, but it's affecting my reception of the Kolb List.................
For spam blocking in Outlook Express, I went into "Message," then "Create
Rule From Message," and selected "Delete" for the action to be taken for the
email in question. It works quite well, and I now have over 1500 addresses that
are automatically deleted upon reception. Well and good, fine and dandy,
but there are at least 2 (that I know of, so far) that I added by mistake, and
can't seem to find a way to un-spam them. Scrolling thru 1500 non-alphabetical
addresses to give it a try was tedious, too, to say the least. Is there a
way to enter a specific address, and take it off the spam file ?? TIA for your
help. Desperate Lar. Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB
www.gogittum.com
Message 71
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|
| Subject: | Re: destinations/Bahamas |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
You have to make it to FL first Lar..........
I'm in Herr Hauck's camp on this one, I float pretty good but have no
desire to
ditch more than 500' from shore. -BB do not archive
Larry Bourne wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
>
>Ohhhhhhhhh....................I wanna gooooo ! ! ! Please wait - I'll
>finish Vamoose, I promise..................! ! ! Do not
>Archive.
>
>Larry Bourne
>Palm Springs, CA
>Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB
>www.gogittum.com
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
>
>
>
>
>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious"
>>
>>
><bbrocious@hotmail.com>
>
>
>>Kolb'ers,
>>During the sailing season there are frequent floatillas of sailing and
>>
>>
>power
>
>
>>craft traveling together to the Bahamas for safety and commradarie.
>>
>>
>Perhaps
>
>
>>we could hook up with one of them to chaperon us across the water?
>>Bob
>>
>>do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
>>>Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>>>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>>>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
>>>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:42:09 -0600
>>>
>>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
>>>
>>>Bob,
>>>That sounds like a heck of a lot of fun. What about landing on secluded
>>>beaches?
>>>
>>>pp
>>>do not archive
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
>>>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>>>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious"
>>>>
>>>>
>>><bbrocious@hotmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Paul,
>>>>I flew my wife to the Bahamas in a rented Cherokee 180 a few years ago
>>>>
>>>>
>>>for
>>>
>>>
>>>>our anniversary. It was my first over water and my first outside the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>US.
>>>
>>>
>>>>You file a flight plan and declare a time you will cross the Defense
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Zone
>>>
>>>
>>>>and check in with Bahamamian Customs going over and U.S. Customs on
>>>>
>>>>
>the
>
>
>>>way
>>>
>>>
>>>>back. The scary part is all that water! I bought a GPS just to give
>>>>
>>>>
>me
>
>
>>>the
>>>
>>>
>>>>peace of mind that I was headed in the right direction. I dream of
>>>>
>>>>
>>>flying
>>>a
>>>
>>>
>>>>float equipped Kolb around the islands. One day ... . But there are
>>>>
>>>>
>>>LOTS
>>>
>>>
>>>>of landing strips over there. It would be way cool to do that with
>>>>
>>>>
>>>other
>>>
>>>
>>>>pilots.
>>>>Bob
>>>>N57MB "Miss B" Mark III Classic
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
>>>>>Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>>>>>To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>>>>>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
>>>>>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:39:32 -0800 (PST)
>>>>>
>>>>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>Hey
>>>>>
>>>>>You hush now!!!
>>>>>That is my secret plan. Now I am going to have John
>>>>>the Hawk beat to it before I am done building my M3X.
>>>>>In fact its in advanced planing stage as we speak.
>>>>>
>>>>>do not archive.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--- Paul Petty <ppetty@c-gate.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty"
>>>>>><ppetty@c-gate.net>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Kolbers,
>>>>>>Reading your post about the Alaska trip gives me
>>>>>>goose bumps. Due to my work, It will be many years
>>>>>>before I will be able to take a month off to make a
>>>>>>trip like that.
>>>>>>One destination I plan to make when I become good
>>>>>>enough to navigate long cross countries is the
>>>>>>Bahamas. I have read allot about the islands and it
>>>>>>looks like a super place to spend a week or so
>>>>>>flying around finding secluded beaches with a tent
>>>>>>and fishing rod. It's only like 45 miles from Ft.
>>>>>>Lauderdale FL to the first island of Bimini. What a
>>>>>>wonderful place to explore.
>>>>>>Nothing like Alaska I'm sure but a dang close
>>>>>>second. And doable for me within the next year or
>>>>>>so.
>>>>>>Anybody in to this or know of rules that they don't
>>>>>>tell you about in the brochures?
>>>>>>www.flying.bahamas.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>pp
>>>>>>
>>>>>>do not archive
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Contributions
>>>>>>any other
>>>>>>Forums.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.matronics.com/subscription
>>>>>>http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm
>>>>>>http://www.matronics.com/archives
>>>>>>http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
>>>>>>http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>=====
>>>>>Ron
>>>>>Building M3X
>>>>>Southern Arizona
>>>>>
>>>>>__________________________________
>>>>>Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
>>>>>http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Bob, Kathleen, and Kory Brocious
>>>>Tenacity Farm
>>>>Campbellsburg, Kentucky
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Bob, Kathleen, and Kory Brocious
>>Tenacity Farm
>>Campbellsburg, Kentucky
>>
>>Never get a busy signal because you are always connected with high-speed
>>Internet access. Click here to comparison-shop providers.
>>https://broadband.msn.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 72
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| Subject: | Re: FW: vortex generators--aka spins |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Noyer <ronoy@shentel.net>
OK, now alla youse youngers can press Delete. My flight training of '40
&'41 had mandatory spin training, from about the 5th hr on. The one fact
that I thought was astounding was/is: Once in a well-formed spin, your
rate of descent Does Not IIncrease! Therefore, the old (about maybe 40)
instructor said "spinning down through an overcast is a safe way to get
down--unless the bottom is less than 500 feet." And I'm here to say, he
spun us down (50hp Cub) through 14 turns (I tried to count) and we
weren't going any faster at pull out than when we were in about the 2nd
turn. Geez I'd like to do that again.
Bob N. jes too damn old fer most anything fun
do not archive
Message 73
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|
| Subject: | Re: Kolb Porcupines or Vortex Generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
John:
1. Have heard tell that washing things weakens them... I must have the
strongest airplane in the state...
2. If'n it won't cut or stab ya, bite ya, or sue ya fer divorce, hit
probably ain't worth foolin with...
3. If'n my machine had the size engine you got, I'd force it to fly
backwards, just to see folks marvel at it....
Regards,
B.
P.S. Do YOU know what a "twilly" is, or did George just make that up....?
b.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
>>
> How you guys wash those Kolb Porcupines with all those
> little things sticking out of them?
>
> I am afraid I'd be bleeding all over the airplane if I tried
> to work in, on, or around them.> Hope I am not missing the boat by not
sticking them all over
> Miss P'fer. She told me she would fly with any porcupine
> and perform just as well without them. >
> Take care and don't take me serious. Life is much too short
> for that.
>
>
Message 74
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|
| Subject: | Re: Kolb Porcupines or Vortex Generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> P.S. Do YOU know what a "twilly" is, or did George just make that up....?
> b.
Beauford/All:
I do not know what a "twilly" is, and have not done a Google
search to find out. Maybe we can't find out in Alabama?
n.) A machine for cleansing or loosening wool by the action
of a revolving cylinder covered with long iron spikes or
teeth; a willy or willying machine; -- called also twilly
devil, and devil. See Devil, n., 6, and Willy.
Never mind. Google told me the above definition.
Now we all know.
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 75
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Porcupines or Vortex Generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
At 06:16 PM 10/28/03 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
>Gang:
>
>How you guys wash those Kolb Porcupines with all those
>little things sticking out of them?
John,
It takes about two cups of water out of a spray bottle, and two dozen paper towels
to wash the FireFly.
One does have to be a little careful around the VG's.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 76
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|
| Subject: | Re: Tail Surface VG Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrel@kfalls.net>
: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Surface VG Effects
>" I have had a similar problem of trying to get the ball to center. "
Beauford and the rest,
That is what the trim tab is for and it is bent to the right side of the
rudder, which of course causes the rudder to be deflected to the left. That
should cause some relief to the left foot. I have one on mine and it fly's
hands off with no problem. Not sure if this has any effect on your problems
of not flying straight, but- in my last trip in my trusty firestar- needing
to conserve every ounce of gasoline available I was watching my GPS very
closely, noting the ground speed. I happened to check my yaw string and
noticed that I was flying a bit sideways due to the prevailing wind. It
happened to be off my left rear at about 6 mph. I noticed that I was doing
67 mph on the ground. I applied enough rudder to straighten out the string
and immediately dropped 2 mph. Needless to say, I allowed the wind to push
me as fast as it could.
Just as further info I put VG's on the rudder of the Mark III that I
had, elevator as well and did not find any noticeable benefit.
Larry, Oregon
Message 77
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| Subject: | Re: destinations/Bahamas |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
O, ye of little faith. I already made it to Florida once this
year................. :-) Travelin' Lar.
Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bean" <slyck@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
>
> You have to make it to FL first Lar..........
> I'm in Herr Hauck's camp on this one, I float pretty good but have no
> desire to
> ditch more than 500' from shore. -BB do not archive
>
> Larry Bourne wrote:
>
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
> >
> >Ohhhhhhhhh....................I wanna gooooo ! ! ! Please wait - I'll
> >finish Vamoose, I promise..................! ! ! Do
not
> >Archive.
> >
> >Larry Bourne
> >Palm Springs, CA
> >Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB
> >www.gogittum.com
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
> >To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious"
> >>
> >>
> ><bbrocious@hotmail.com>
> >
> >
> >>Kolb'ers,
> >>During the sailing season there are frequent floatillas of sailing and
> >>
> >>
> >power
> >
> >
> >>craft traveling together to the Bahamas for safety and commradarie.
> >>
> >>
> >Perhaps
> >
> >
> >>we could hook up with one of them to chaperon us across the water?
> >>Bob
> >>
> >>do not archive
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>From: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
> >>>Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> >>>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> >>>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
> >>>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:42:09 -0600
> >>>
> >>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
> >>>
> >>>Bob,
> >>>That sounds like a heck of a lot of fun. What about landing on secluded
> >>>beaches?
> >>>
> >>>pp
> >>>do not archive
> >>>
> >>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>From: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
> >>>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> >>>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations/Bahamas
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious"
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>><bbrocious@hotmail.com>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Paul,
> >>>>I flew my wife to the Bahamas in a rented Cherokee 180 a few years ago
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>for
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>our anniversary. It was my first over water and my first outside the
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>US.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>You file a flight plan and declare a time you will cross the Defense
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>Zone
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>and check in with Bahamamian Customs going over and U.S. Customs on
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >the
> >
> >
> >>>way
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>back. The scary part is all that water! I bought a GPS just to give
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >me
> >
> >
> >>>the
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>peace of mind that I was headed in the right direction. I dream of
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>flying
> >>>a
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>float equipped Kolb around the islands. One day ... . But there are
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>LOTS
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>of landing strips over there. It would be way cool to do that with
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>other
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>pilots.
> >>>>Bob
> >>>>N57MB "Miss B" Mark III Classic
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>From: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
> >>>>>Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> >>>>>To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> >>>>>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: destinations
> >>>>>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:39:32 -0800 (PST)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Hey
> >>>>>
> >>>>>You hush now!!!
> >>>>>That is my secret plan. Now I am going to have John
> >>>>>the Hawk beat to it before I am done building my M3X.
> >>>>>In fact its in advanced planing stage as we speak.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>do not archive.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>--- Paul Petty <ppetty@c-gate.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty"
> >>>>>><ppetty@c-gate.net>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Kolbers,
> >>>>>>Reading your post about the Alaska trip gives me
> >>>>>>goose bumps. Due to my work, It will be many years
> >>>>>>before I will be able to take a month off to make a
> >>>>>>trip like that.
> >>>>>>One destination I plan to make when I become good
> >>>>>>enough to navigate long cross countries is the
> >>>>>>Bahamas. I have read allot about the islands and it
> >>>>>>looks like a super place to spend a week or so
> >>>>>>flying around finding secluded beaches with a tent
> >>>>>>and fishing rod. It's only like 45 miles from Ft.
> >>>>>>Lauderdale FL to the first island of Bimini. What a
> >>>>>>wonderful place to explore.
> >>>>>>Nothing like Alaska I'm sure but a dang close
> >>>>>>second. And doable for me within the next year or
> >>>>>>so.
> >>>>>>Anybody in to this or know of rules that they don't
> >>>>>>tell you about in the brochures?
> >>>>>>www.flying.bahamas.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>pp
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>do not archive
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Contributions
> >>>>>>any other
> >>>>>>Forums.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> >>>>>>http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm
> >>>>>>http://www.matronics.com/archives
> >>>>>>http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> >>>>>>http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>=====
> >>>>>Ron
> >>>>>Building M3X
> >>>>>Southern Arizona
> >>>>>
> >>>>>__________________________________
> >>>>>Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> >>>>>http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>Bob, Kathleen, and Kory Brocious
> >>>>Tenacity Farm
> >>>>Campbellsburg, Kentucky
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Bob, Kathleen, and Kory Brocious
> >>Tenacity Farm
> >>Campbellsburg, Kentucky
> >>
> >>Never get a busy signal because you are always connected with
high-speed
> >>Internet access. Click here to comparison-shop providers.
> >>https://broadband.msn.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 78
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|
| Subject: | Re: FW: vortex generators--aka spins |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Carr" <dcarr@uniontel.net>
Instructors in 1956 taught spins and spinning down through overcasts also.
Spin entries and recoveries were part of the Private Pilots check ride in
1958 at least in Iowa. I did multi turn spins in a PA-12 SuperCruiser solo
as a student Pilot. It was fun.
Dave Carr
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Noyer" <ronoy@shentel.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FW: vortex generators--aka spins
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Noyer <ronoy@shentel.net>
>
> OK, now alla youse youngers can press Delete. My flight training of '40
> &'41 had mandatory spin training, from about the 5th hr on. The one fact
> that I thought was astounding was/is: Once in a well-formed spin, your
> rate of descent Does Not IIncrease! Therefore, the old (about maybe 40)
> instructor said "spinning down through an overcast is a safe way to get
> down--unless the bottom is less than 500 feet." And I'm here to say, he
> spun us down (50hp Cub) through 14 turns (I tried to count) and we
> weren't going any faster at pull out than when we were in about the 2nd
> turn. Geez I'd like to do that again.
>
> Bob N. jes too damn old fer most anything fun
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 79
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Porcupines or Vortex Generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> It takes about two cups of water out of a spray bottle,
> and two dozen paper towels to wash the FireFly.
> Jack B. Hart FF004 Jackson, MO
Jack/Gang:
You are a lucky man indeed.
Flying with cows takes lots of water.
All the cows have had advanced land mine warfare training.
They can lay down the mines faster than I can flatten them
with my own designed "grass strip cow crap flattener".
Takes some fancy foot work on landing to keep those big
tires off the mines. One mine takes out the entire
airplane. Yuck!!!
Take care,
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 80
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| Subject: | Re: FW: vortex generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "woody" <duesouth@govital.net>
Goes to show great minds think alike. I did the same thing on my first
solo away from the airport.
> believe me, it was spooky.............and I was lucky - it was on my 1st
> real solo flight, when I rented the airplane and took off on my own for
the
> 1st time. Came very close to being killed.
Message 81
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| Subject: | Re: New Mark III Instrument Pod |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "CRAIG M NELSON" <vitalfx0@msn.com>
Jim; yes I would love to share the pod with you I have the mould. just tell me
how you would like to have it ( s glass or carbon fiber) I don't think I will
sell the glare shield because it was time consuming and I didn't stitch the leather.
the carbon piece will probably cost about $200
Uncle CraigMKIIIex912uls
Arizona
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Clayton
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: New Mark III Instrument Pod
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jim Clayton <jspc78@yahoo.com>
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Email List Photo
Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Craig Nelson <vitalfx0@msn.com>
Subject: New Mark III Instrument Pod
Craig,
That instrument pod, and glare shield is amazing! I
imagined the exact instruments, and needing a larger
pod, however I don't have the skills with fiberglass
or carbon fiber. Would you be willing to build more
of them, and if so, what do you supose it might cost?
I really like the paint job on the panel.
do not archive
-Jim
Jim Clayton
California
Mark-3X, Building
Message 82
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Porcupines or Vortex Generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
How'd u know?
The first batch I put on unsanded. After snagging my finger on one of the
cursed things, I went back and sanded the sharp little back corner off, and
then sanded down all the subsequent ones. That took as long as making them!
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (4 2 0ldPorcupines -er, Poops)
At 06:16 PM 10/28/03 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
>Gang:
>
>How you guys wash those Kolb Porcupines with all those
>little things sticking out of them?
>
>I am afraid I'd be bleeding all over the airplane if I tried
>to work in, on, or around them.
<snip>
>john h
>
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 83
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| Subject: | Re: Tail Surface VG Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
I don't know about the FF's, but the MKIII uses springs to keep a little
tension on the rudder pedals - what if we put a stronger spring on the left
one? Or is that too simple...?
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 05:06 PM 10/28/03 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
>
>Beauford,
<snip>
>On the vertical fin question, I would put a bunch on one side and fly and
>see what happens.
> So I am anxious to hear how your experiment comes out.
>
>Jack B. Hart FF004
>Jackson, MO
>
>
>At 04:27 PM 10/28/03 -0500, you wrote:
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
> >
> >Jack:
> >Thanks for the horizontal stab info... I looked carefully at your
> >picture... I will crank some more VG's out and stick them under there...
> >Re; the rudder issue...
> >Would you recommend installing them on both sides of the vertical fin, or
> >only on one side?
> >Appreciative Beauford
> >FF #076
do not archive
Message 84
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| Subject: | Re: Tail Surface VG Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> I don't know about the FF's, but the MKIII uses springs
> to keep a little tension on the rudder pedals - what if
> we put a stronger spring on the left one? Or is that too
> simple...?
>
> Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Richard/Beauford/All:
Doesn't Beauford have a trim tab on the FF rudder?
If so, put more bend in it to get more trim, or build
another with a little more cord, and/or length.
john h
Message 85
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Roger that, Dave and Bob....
Same thing in Louisville, where I learned to fly... the instructors
required each and every student to demonstrate the ability to recover the
7AC Champ from a spin in either direction out of a "base to final" turn
before they would solo him or her... That was no big deal at the time and
was still standard procedure in most flight school operations in
mid-fifties... Most students would solo a Champ from scratch in 10 or 12
hours, spin session(s) included.
Things got a little more complicated later when the trainers got fancier and
gyro instruments appeared in the panels... If they were not able to be caged
(locked) spins tended to screw them up and made the school managers kinda
irate if they caught instructors spinning their airplanes with students.
Also, there were some trainers that did not always recover from spins in a
normal way under certain conditions... The Grumman AA1A Yankee Trainer was
one that had a reputation for quickly flattening out in a spin and become
nearly unrecoverable if the c.g. were even a little bit aft...like from
large occupants having the seats run all the way to the rear... The Army
flying club at Ft. Huachuca lost an AA1A to this flat spin problem, killing
an instructor and his student back in the mid-seventies...
I always think about that accident when I wonder how the Kolb family of
aft-engined airplanes would handle spins... Haven't heard the subject come
up much on the list... My particular bird has a well-forward c.g. when my
flabby fanny is strapped into the nose of it, but I know some Kolb models
tend to operate toward the back of the envelope with lighter pilots aboard.
Spins could be real exciting.
Beauford
FF #076
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Carr" Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FW: vortex generators--aka spins
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Carr" >
> Instructors in 1956 taught spins and spinning down through overcasts also.
> Spin entries and recoveries were part of the Private Pilots check ride in
> 1958 at least in Iowa. >
> Dave Carr
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Noyer" <> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FW: vortex generators--aka
spins
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Noyer <ronoy@shentel.net>
> >
> > OK, now alla youse youngers can press Delete. My flight training of '40
> > &'41 had mandatory spin training, from about the 5th hr on. > >
> > do not archive
> >
> >
>
>
Message 86
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| Subject: | Re: Tail Surface VG Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Brother Pike...
Tarnation....! Now you've gone and done it....! This had all the
makin's of a weekend-long scientific project...... sigh....
B.
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
>
>
> what if we put a stronger spring on the left
> one? Or is that too simple...?
>> >
> >>
>
>
Message 87
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| Subject: | Re: Tail Surface VG Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
To take that idea of the stronger spring a step further, take a look on my
website, under "Building Vamoose," then open "Rudder Trim." You might find
it interesting. Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Pike" <rwpike@charter.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Surface VG Effects
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
>
> I don't know about the FF's, but the MKIII uses springs to keep a little
> tension on the rudder pedals - what if we put a stronger spring on the
left
> one? Or is that too simple...?
Message 88
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| Subject: | Re: destinations/Bahamas |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
> Strikes me that if one made it across to the Bahamas
> in a Rotax powered
> Kolb, one will automatically qualify for emergency
> status by the time one
> locates the beach...
> Whaddya think?
>>>>>>
Yup that about sums it up!
=====
Ron
Building M3X
Southern Arizona
__________________________________
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Message 89
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Porcupines or Vortex Generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
John and all
LOL...Well rgr tht JH...an Ill tell ya what...VG's makes covering em up with
a sheet hard to..Here is Illinois..in the dirt floor hanger over at Tommys
Airpark, last couple a weeks its been harvest time, and in 1 week my FireFly
gets about an inch a bean chaff ...corn bees wings and dirt on it. I was
trying to cover it all up...Ive give up and am just covering the lexan now..
Takes alot of water around here too!
DO not archive
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Don Gherardini-
FireFly 098
Message 90
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Ben Ransom <bwr000@yahoo.com>
One thing about spins is of course that they vary between aircraft.
The original Kolb Co. manual says that a Firestar will develop into a
rapidly turning spin ...I was always too chicken to find out if that
meant some tendency toward non-recovery. I really doubt it, but still
chicken. Original Kolb, of course, recommended not spinning, obviously
to protect their hind ends on the ground from fools in the air. I've
said it before, IMO taking a Kolb for a 1 turn spin is a fun thing and
a fine idea if you've done a few in another plane with an instructor.
Off Kolb topic, but I think it's true that the early AA1A's also had no
baffles in the main spar fuel tank. It's a tube spar, like a Kolb. No
baffles and the fuel goes to the wing ends, increasing the rotational
momentum of the spinning aircraft. Kind of sucks when your opposite
rudder is on the floor and you're still in that constant rate of
decent!! I believe that killed a few too.
-Ben
--- beauford <beauford@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "beauford"
> <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
>
> Roger that, Dave and Bob....
> Same thing in Louisville, where I learned to fly... the instructors
> required each and every student to demonstrate the ability to recover
> the
> 7AC Champ from a spin in either direction out of a "base to final"
> turn
> before they would solo him or her... That was no big deal at the time
> and
> was still standard procedure in most flight school operations in
> mid-fifties... Most students would solo a Champ from scratch in 10 or
> 12
> hours, spin session(s) included.
>
> Things got a little more complicated later when the trainers got
> fancier and
> gyro instruments appeared in the panels... If they were not able to
> be caged
> (locked) spins tended to screw them up and made the school managers
> kinda
> irate if they caught instructors spinning their airplanes with
> students.
> Also, there were some trainers that did not always recover from spins
> in a
> normal way under certain conditions... The Grumman AA1A Yankee
> Trainer was
> one that had a reputation for quickly flattening out in a spin and
> become
> nearly unrecoverable if the c.g. were even a little bit aft...like
> from
> large occupants having the seats run all the way to the rear... The
> Army
> flying club at Ft. Huachuca lost an AA1A to this flat spin problem,
> killing
> an instructor and his student back in the mid-seventies...
>
> I always think about that accident when I wonder how the Kolb family
> of
> aft-engined airplanes would handle spins... Haven't heard the subject
> come
> up much on the list... My particular bird has a well-forward c.g.
> when my
> flabby fanny is strapped into the nose of it, but I know some Kolb
> models
> tend to operate toward the back of the envelope with lighter pilots
> aboard.
> Spins could be real exciting.
>
> Beauford
> FF #076
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Carr" Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 10:21 PM
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FW: vortex generators--aka spins
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Carr" >
> > Instructors in 1956 taught spins and spinning down through
> overcasts also.
> > Spin entries and recoveries were part of the Private Pilots check
> ride in
> > 1958 at least in Iowa. >
> > Dave Carr
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bob Noyer" <> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FW: vortex
> generators--aka
> spins
> >
> >
> > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Noyer <ronoy@shentel.net>
> > >
> > > OK, now alla youse youngers can press Delete. My flight training
> of '40
> > > &'41 had mandatory spin training, from about the 5th hr on. > >
> > > do not archive
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
=====
http://mae.ucdavis.edu/~ransom
__________________________________
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
Message 91
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| Subject: | Re: M3X Wing mods? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: CaptainRon <aerialron@yahoo.com>
Good report.
I guess I'll revisit the wings when I am done with the
cage and before engine mounting.
I did'nt get the impression that my M3X wing was
lacking for strength. I do remember JH reporting that
he had flexing at the wing tips. I used 2024 alum at
the tip of one wing and left the other at 6061. to see
if there is any difference. I did some extra gussets
on the triangle support tubes that attach at the mid
of the wing tip. They seem fairly rigid. It looks
stock and is mostly stock by the plans. But another
pass on that wouldn't't hurt.
=============
>
> On page 4 (wings) of my site you can see an 1 extra
> rib on the outboard end
> of the wing I installed. This was to hold the
> airfoil shape of the wing
> farther out on the wing as the original design had
> what I believed was an
> awful long taper to the wingtip in the bow area.
> Anyway, you can see the alum angle attached to the
> bottom of the rib. It is
> right alongside of the bottom of the rib, not below
> it, so the rib does not
> gain any depth. On the next full rib back, you see
> an alum angle from the
> leading edge up to the area of the top of the spar
> tube. This is there to
> strengthen the D-Cell area. and according to the
> plans, is required on the
> top and bottom on the last rib. After reading and
> talking to John Hauck,
> about his adventures in flying a Firestar all the
> way to destruction, I
> decided to do more than just the last rib..and
> placed alum angle on every
> other rib for the full length in the D-Cell area,
> and for the full length of
> the bottom on the last "extra" rib.Now, in
> Hindsight, I might have done
> every one, as the weight factor was so small, and
> now, after Loading my
> FireFly to gross for flight testing, and then
> overgross..I have discovered
> that the factory Gross weight number(500lbs) is very
> conservative. At
> least in terms of how the aircraft will
> handle...Likely those gross ratings
> are to comply with a G-rating...and as long as you
> dont pull any
> g's..........!!!!!!
>
> I have tested it to 585 lbs and it still climbs
> like a demon on 38 horses
> and does NOT fly like any certificated aircraft I
> have flown when at or
> close to gross.(let alone overgross) ..it still
> feels like it could take a
> whole lot more weight! (but it would need more room
> to pile it somewhere!)
> My normal TOW is from 490 to 515 depending on how
> much gear I decide to pile
> in.
>
> I think that John can better address this than I,
> and I believe that it was
> the D-cell secrion that failed on the Firestar wing
> wasnt it John???
>
> http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
> Don Gherardini-
> FireFly 098
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
=====
Ron
Building M3X
Southern Arizona
__________________________________
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