---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/16/03: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:08 AM - Tail Weight ??? (Mike Pierzina) 2. 07:45 AM - Re: Tail Weight ??? (Aaron Hollingsworth) 3. 08:52 AM - Re: doors/windows (CRAIG M NELSON) 4. 09:56 AM - Proper Prop? (george murphy) 5. 10:04 AM - Proper Prop? (george murphy) 6. 02:02 PM - W&B / Tail Weight (Aaron Hollingsworth) 7. 02:49 PM - Re: Tail Weight ??? (Aaron Hollingsworth) 8. 02:57 PM - Re: W&B / Tail Weight (Aaron Hollingsworth) 9. 03:07 PM - Re: W&B / Tail Weight (Aaron Hollingsworth) 10. 03:38 PM - Re: doors/windows (possums) 11. 03:42 PM - Re: doors/windows (possums) 12. 04:07 PM - W&B (Bob Bean) 13. 06:06 PM - Re: Proper Prop? (Richard Pike) 14. 07:12 PM - Re: W&B / Tail Weight (Aaron Hollingsworth) 15. 07:23 PM - Ultra-Com helmet for sale (Timandjan@aol.com) 16. 08:04 PM - Prop (bryan green) 17. 08:04 PM - Re: Tail Weight ??? (Denny Rowe) 18. 08:07 PM - Re: Tail Weight ??? (Aaron Hollingsworth) 19. 08:19 PM - Re: W&B / Tail Weight (Denny Rowe) 20. 09:24 PM - Re: W&B / Tail Weight (Aaron Hollingsworth) 21. 09:29 PM - Re: Tail Weight ??? (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 22. 09:34 PM - Re: W&B / Tail Weight (Aaron Hollingsworth) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:30 AM PST US From: "Mike Pierzina" Subject: Kolb-List: Tail Weight ??? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Mike Pierzina" Hey Guys, On that tail weight problem of Aaron's...Did anybody ask him what the Height of his Horizontal Stablizer at it's Leading Edge??? Although ,I haven't heard of any being TOO HIGH... I can,t believe the moment from a 14 ft arm(from 10#) Didn't raise suspicion that should have been solved. Sounds like that plane came with a FREE roll of Duct Tape and maybe some bailing wire... Gotta Fly... Mike in MN FSII,503 Upolstered my seat, Taping for trim paint on the Tail...it's been more work than the seat. --- Sometimes you just have to take the leap and build your wings on the way down... Gotta Fly... http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;6413623;3807821;f?http://mocda1.com/1/c/563632/113422/313631/313631 AOL users go here: http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;6413623;3807821;f?http://mocda1.com/1/c/563632/113422/313631/313631 This offer applies to U.S. Residents Only ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:25 AM PST US From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Weight ??? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" I'll check.. I'll be going out to the hanger today to weight everything. I hope my 3 misc bathroom scales do the trick. I'll try and calibrate them all to the same before using. I did some hops in the plane yesterday with my 'heavy' load... myself at ~215 and passenger at ~255. The empty weight according to the last W&B (from years ago) is 535.. so total weight with fuel would be slightly over gross. I did the hops without the tail weight. I used full up trim and noted the after getting off the ground, I did not have more than an inch maybe two of back stick to play with... I did look at the flap / alieron droop. The ailerons look level with the bottom of the wing, maybe VERY slightly drooped.. I'll get a straight edge to it today and have a 2nd person with me to lift on the other side. However my flaps are both drooped , the right drooped an extra 1-2 degrees over the left. I have a left aileron trim tab bent up about 20deg if that matters to this issue. single occupant, the plane flys great... dual and tail weight it flys great... but now that I know that other mk3s dont need extra tail weight dual, I really want to fix the problem. I'll let everyone know the figures of my new W&B after I get them today. aaron - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Pierzina" Subject: Kolb-List: Tail Weight ??? > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Mike Pierzina" > > Hey Guys, > On that tail weight problem of Aaron's...Did anybody ask him what the Height of his Horizontal Stablizer at it's Leading Edge??? > Although ,I haven't heard of any being TOO HIGH... > > I can,t believe the moment from a 14 ft arm(from 10#) > Didn't raise suspicion that should have been solved. > > Sounds like that plane came with a FREE roll of Duct Tape and maybe some bailing wire... > > Gotta Fly... > Mike in MN FSII,503 > Upolstered my seat, Taping for trim paint on the Tail...it's been more work than the seat. > > > --- > Sometimes you just have to take the leap > and build your wings on the way down... > Gotta Fly... > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;6413623;3807821;f?http://mocda1.com/1/c/563632/113422/313631/313631 > AOL users go here: http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;6413623;3807821;f?http://mocda1.com/1/c/563632/113422/313631/313631 > This offer applies to U.S. Residents Only > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:12 AM PST US From: "CRAIG M NELSON" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: doors/windows --> Kolb-List message posted by: "CRAIG M NELSON" ----- Original Message ----- From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: doors/windows, --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums Possums: beautiful cabin!!!!!!!!, love the red black and yellow on white. great looking graphics, . post moor picks. I think you are right on the money,. . I've decided that to fly door less in my MKIIIex I'm going to enclose the back of the cabin. I don't want to have to mess with the windows to remove the doors. I'll make it accessible through the window behind my head and I have baggage doors in the sides. Thanks again. Uncle Craig MKIIIex912uls Arizona At 09:24 AM 11/15/2003 -0800, you wrote: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/possums@mindspring.com.09.27.2003/Seat2.jpg http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/possums@mindspring.com.09.27.2003/Seat2.jpg I put a plug behind the seat - made of "gatorboard" - like "foam board" only a lot stronger - with some graphics on it from Kinkos. It keeps the wind from blowing through the back of the plane when I fly with the windshield off. It also makes a bubble in front of it - I suppose because the air can't go straight back. It splits just in front of my head. I don't think I ever get more than about 25 mph wind in my face. I can fly with just a pair of sunglasses. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:28 AM PST US From: george murphy Subject: Kolb-List: Proper Prop? --> Kolb-List message posted by: george murphy Can anyone tell me what is the recommended prop diameter for a Firestar running a 503 with a B-type gearbox? I have a 2 blade 66" Warp Drive but am considering changing to a Three Blade Warp. What is the optimum diameter when running a 3 blade vs. the Two Blade?? Thanks G. Murphy/ 89 Firestar/ Alpine, Alabama ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:04:55 AM PST US From: george murphy Subject: Kolb-List: Proper Prop? --> Kolb-List message posted by: george murphy Can anyone tell me what is the recommended prop diameter for a Firestar running a 503 with a B-type gearbox? I have a 2 blade 66" Warp Drive but am considering changing to a Three Blade Warp. What is the optimum diameter when running a 3 blade vs. the Two Blade?? Thanks G. Murphy/ 89 Firestar/ Alpine, Alabama ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:02:09 PM PST US From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" Subject: Kolb-List: W&B / Tail Weight --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" Ok.. .I did a W&B on my mk3. I did the W&B worst case: myself at 217lbs and my father at 256lbs. That is 473lbs of beef. Here is the breakdown.. eyeball my math #s and tell me if something looks way off: With full gas (10 Gallons.. no passengers) left wheel 262 lbs +5 from L.E right wheel 269 lbs +5 from L.E Tail Wheel 88 lbs +201 from L.E Pilot 217 lbs -6 from L.E Passenger 256 lbs -6 from L.E Gas 0lbs (included in plane weight. 10 gallons) +18.5 from L.E Total Weight: 1092 lbs (yes I realize this is over gross) Total Moment: 18,615 Result Dist: 17.046 %CG: 26.635 --- I'm happy to see that this is well within the 20% - 37% limits. I redid the math without any gas weight and the %cg barely moved. From 26.635 to 26.500. I thought it would move more forward without the gas weight? ------ Ok.. now on to the tail weight issue. I checked to see if my ailerons and full up flaps to be level with the bottom edge of my wing. The ailerons looked perfect. The flaps were a good (guess) 5-6degrees drooped. I adjusted the flaps to be exactly flush with the wing and ailerons. Without any tail weight and doing fast taxi and hops with my 250 lbs passenger here is what I saw: I set full up elevator, added full rpm and we started rolling. I pulled the tail off at about 40-45. While holding close to full back elevator, we came off the ground at about 62-65 so I leveled a few feet and started a gentle climb at 65-67. I did a couple hops like this and a third I used one notch of flaps to see if it lessened the roll. It did by about 20-25% I would guess. When getting 15-20' I would level off then nose down and slowly pull power to land. I seemed to have plenty of elevator authority to decent and level off. Other than a longer roll than I remembered with the tail weight, I would say the adjustment fixed my issue with having to hold too much back stick. I did once around the pattern at this weight and noted sluggish climb at 200-400' min on the vsi. It is not stellar performance but not that bad considering the beef on board, full fuel, 6800' runway, and 50deg day. Density alt was 7800'. I will likely have to pick a lighter passenger for our 80-90deg days or fly solo. I also did a couple laps around the pattern solo and noticed little difference in the adjustments. It behaved as expected... climbs like a bat out of hell :) All in all I would say the flap adj. fixed the heavy load w full trim issue where I needed full back pressure. Thanks to everyone that has added some input on this. Next on the list of items is max rpm. On climb out I see 6180-6200. I have not done a static rpm test, but I think I should be seeing a little more load.. maybe 6400? Rudder tab, and maybe a more rpm and I should be golden. Regards, aaron - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Weight ??? > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" > > I'll check.. I'll be going out to the hanger today to weight everything. I > hope my 3 misc bathroom scales do the trick. I'll try and calibrate them all > to the same before using. > > I did some hops in the plane yesterday with my 'heavy' load... myself at > ~215 and passenger at ~255. The empty weight according to the last W&B (from > years ago) is 535.. so total weight with fuel would be slightly over gross. > I did the hops without the tail weight. I used full up trim and noted the > after getting off the ground, I did not have more than an inch maybe two of > back stick to play with... > > I did look at the flap / alieron droop. The ailerons look level with the > bottom of the wing, maybe VERY slightly drooped.. I'll get a straight edge > to it today and have a 2nd person with me to lift on the other side. However > my flaps are both drooped , the right drooped an extra 1-2 degrees over the > left. I have a left aileron trim tab bent up about 20deg if that matters to > this issue. > > single occupant, the plane flys great... dual and tail weight it flys > great... but now that I know that other mk3s dont need extra tail weight > dual, I really want to fix the problem. I'll let everyone know the figures > of my new W&B after I get them today. > > aaron > - > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Pierzina" > To: > Subject: Kolb-List: Tail Weight ??? > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Mike Pierzina" > > > > Hey Guys, > > On that tail weight problem of Aaron's...Did anybody ask him what > the Height of his Horizontal Stablizer at it's Leading Edge??? > > Although ,I haven't heard of any being TOO HIGH... > > > > I can,t believe the moment from a 14 ft arm(from 10#) > > Didn't raise suspicion that should have been solved. > > > > Sounds like that plane came with a FREE roll of Duct Tape and maybe some > bailing wire... > > > > Gotta Fly... > > Mike in MN FSII,503 > > Upolstered my seat, Taping for trim paint on the Tail...it's been more > work than the seat. > > > > > > --- > > Sometimes you just have to take the leap > > and build your wings on the way down... > > Gotta Fly... > > > > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;6413623;3807821;f?http://mocda1.com/1/c/563632/113422/313631/313631 > > AOL users go here: > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;6413623;3807821;f?http://mocda1.com/1/c/563632/113422/313631/313631 > > This offer applies to U.S. Residents Only > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:49:48 PM PST US From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Weight ??? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" I measured the height of the leading edge of the horiz stab. I measured from the bottom of the horiz stab. to the bottom of the boom tube. I got 5 inches. Does this sound right? aaron - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Pierzina" Subject: Kolb-List: Tail Weight ??? > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Mike Pierzina" > > Hey Guys, > On that tail weight problem of Aaron's...Did anybody ask him what the Height of his Horizontal Stablizer at it's Leading Edge??? > Although ,I haven't heard of any being TOO HIGH... > > I can,t believe the moment from a 14 ft arm(from 10#) > Didn't raise suspicion that should have been solved. > > Sounds like that plane came with a FREE roll of Duct Tape and maybe some bailing wire... > > Gotta Fly... > Mike in MN FSII,503 > Upolstered my seat, Taping for trim paint on the Tail...it's been more work than the seat. > > > --- > Sometimes you just have to take the leap > and build your wings on the way down... > Gotta Fly... > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;6413623;3807821;f?http://mocda1.com/1/c/563632/113422/313631/313631 > AOL users go here: http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;6413623;3807821;f?http://mocda1.com/1/c/563632/113422/313631/313631 > This offer applies to U.S. Residents Only > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:57:28 PM PST US From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: W&B / Tail Weight --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" arg.... I just remembered reading about the angle of attack on on the wing for doing a W&B. I hope like hell that all three wheels on the ground is ~ the angle of attack needed.. I think the manual said L.E 7.5 inches above level (straight edge level from back of wing). Otherwise all my data below may be a bit off :/ aaron - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" Subject: Kolb-List: W&B / Tail Weight > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" > > Ok.. .I did a W&B on my mk3. I did the W&B worst case: myself at 217lbs and > my father at 256lbs. That is 473lbs of beef. Here is the breakdown.. eyeball > my math #s and tell me if something looks way off: > > With full gas (10 Gallons.. no passengers) > > left wheel > 262 lbs > +5 from L.E > > right wheel > 269 lbs > +5 from L.E > > Tail Wheel > 88 lbs > +201 from L.E > > Pilot > 217 lbs > -6 from L.E > > Passenger > 256 lbs > -6 from L.E > > Gas > 0lbs (included in plane weight. 10 gallons) > +18.5 from L.E > > Total Weight: 1092 lbs (yes I realize this is over gross) > Total Moment: 18,615 > Result Dist: 17.046 > %CG: 26.635 > > --- > I'm happy to see that this is well within the 20% - 37% limits. I redid the > math without any gas weight and the %cg barely moved. From 26.635 to 26.500. > I thought it would move more forward without the gas weight? > > ------ > > Ok.. now on to the tail weight issue. I checked to see if my ailerons and > full up flaps to be level with the bottom edge of my wing. The ailerons > looked perfect. The flaps were a good (guess) 5-6degrees drooped. I adjusted > the flaps to be exactly flush with the wing and ailerons. Without any tail > weight and doing fast taxi and hops with my 250 lbs passenger here is what I > saw: I set full up elevator, added full rpm and we started rolling. I pulled > the tail off at about 40-45. While holding close to full back elevator, we > came off the ground at about 62-65 so I leveled a few feet and started a > gentle climb at 65-67. I did a couple hops like this and a third I used one > notch of flaps to see if it lessened the roll. It did by about 20-25% I > would guess. When getting 15-20' I would level off then nose down and slowly > pull power to land. I seemed to have plenty of elevator authority to decent > and level off. Other than a longer roll than I remembered with the tail > weight, I would say the adjustment fixed my issue with having to hold too > much back stick. > > I did once around the pattern at this weight and noted sluggish climb at > 200-400' min on the vsi. It is not stellar performance but not that bad > considering the beef on board, full fuel, 6800' runway, and 50deg day. > Density alt was 7800'. I will likely have to pick a lighter passenger for > our 80-90deg days or fly solo. > > I also did a couple laps around the pattern solo and noticed little > difference in the adjustments. It behaved as expected... climbs like a bat > out of hell :) > > All in all I would say the flap adj. fixed the heavy load w full trim issue > where I needed full back pressure. Thanks to everyone that has added some > input on this. > > Next on the list of items is max rpm. On climb out I see 6180-6200. I have > not done a static rpm test, but I think I should be seeing a little more > load.. maybe 6400? > > Rudder tab, and maybe a more rpm and I should be golden. > > Regards, > > aaron > - > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" > To: > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Weight ??? > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" > > > > > I'll check.. I'll be going out to the hanger today to weight everything. I > > hope my 3 misc bathroom scales do the trick. I'll try and calibrate them > all > > to the same before using. > > > > I did some hops in the plane yesterday with my 'heavy' load... myself at > > ~215 and passenger at ~255. The empty weight according to the last W&B > (from > > years ago) is 535.. so total weight with fuel would be slightly over > gross. > > I did the hops without the tail weight. I used full up trim and noted the > > after getting off the ground, I did not have more than an inch maybe two > of > > back stick to play with... > > > > I did look at the flap / alieron droop. The ailerons look level with the > > bottom of the wing, maybe VERY slightly drooped.. I'll get a straight edge > > to it today and have a 2nd person with me to lift on the other side. > However > > my flaps are both drooped , the right drooped an extra 1-2 degrees over > the > > left. I have a left aileron trim tab bent up about 20deg if that matters > to > > this issue. > > > > single occupant, the plane flys great... dual and tail weight it flys > > great... but now that I know that other mk3s dont need extra tail weight > > dual, I really want to fix the problem. I'll let everyone know the figures > > of my new W&B after I get them today. > > > > aaron > > - > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Mike Pierzina" > > To: > > Subject: Kolb-List: Tail Weight ??? > > > > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Mike Pierzina" > > > > > > > Hey Guys, > > > On that tail weight problem of Aaron's...Did anybody ask him > what > > the Height of his Horizontal Stablizer at it's Leading Edge??? > > > Although ,I haven't heard of any being TOO HIGH... > > > > > > I can,t believe the moment from a 14 ft arm(from 10#) > > > Didn't raise suspicion that should have been solved. > > > > > > Sounds like that plane came with a FREE roll of Duct Tape and maybe some > > bailing wire... > > > > > > Gotta Fly... > > > Mike in MN FSII,503 > > > Upolstered my seat, Taping for trim paint on the Tail...it's been more > > work than the seat. > > > > > > > > > --- > > > Sometimes you just have to take the leap > > > and build your wings on the way down... > > > Gotta Fly... > > > > > > > > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;6413623;3807821;f?http://mocda1.com/1/c/563632/113422/313631/313631 > > > AOL users go here: > > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;6413623;3807821;f?http://mocda1.com/1/c/563632/113422/313631/313631 > > > This offer applies to U.S. Residents Only > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:07:37 PM PST US From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: W&B / Tail Weight --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" oh.. almost forgot. When I adjusted the flaps to be level with the aileron, I needed a good bit more length in the rod. I wanted to make sure I had the threads even on each side. I counted exactly 6 full turns from the rod disconnected on both ends. 6 full turns seemed like plenty of threads screwed in, but I might as well double check with people here to make sure I dont need more. aaron - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" Subject: Kolb-List: W&B / Tail Weight > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" > > Ok.. .I did a W&B on my mk3. I did the W&B worst case: myself at 217lbs and > my father at 256lbs. That is 473lbs of beef. Here is the breakdown.. eyeball > my math #s and tell me if something looks way off: > > With full gas (10 Gallons.. no passengers) > > left wheel > 262 lbs > +5 from L.E > > right wheel > 269 lbs > +5 from L.E > > Tail Wheel > 88 lbs > +201 from L.E > > Pilot > 217 lbs > -6 from L.E > > Passenger > 256 lbs > -6 from L.E > > Gas > 0lbs (included in plane weight. 10 gallons) > +18.5 from L.E > > Total Weight: 1092 lbs (yes I realize this is over gross) > Total Moment: 18,615 > Result Dist: 17.046 > %CG: 26.635 > > --- > I'm happy to see that this is well within the 20% - 37% limits. I redid the > math without any gas weight and the %cg barely moved. From 26.635 to 26.500. > I thought it would move more forward without the gas weight? > > ------ > > Ok.. now on to the tail weight issue. I checked to see if my ailerons and > full up flaps to be level with the bottom edge of my wing. The ailerons > looked perfect. The flaps were a good (guess) 5-6degrees drooped. I adjusted > the flaps to be exactly flush with the wing and ailerons. Without any tail > weight and doing fast taxi and hops with my 250 lbs passenger here is what I > saw: I set full up elevator, added full rpm and we started rolling. I pulled > the tail off at about 40-45. While holding close to full back elevator, we > came off the ground at about 62-65 so I leveled a few feet and started a > gentle climb at 65-67. I did a couple hops like this and a third I used one > notch of flaps to see if it lessened the roll. It did by about 20-25% I > would guess. When getting 15-20' I would level off then nose down and slowly > pull power to land. I seemed to have plenty of elevator authority to decent > and level off. Other than a longer roll than I remembered with the tail > weight, I would say the adjustment fixed my issue with having to hold too > much back stick. > > I did once around the pattern at this weight and noted sluggish climb at > 200-400' min on the vsi. It is not stellar performance but not that bad > considering the beef on board, full fuel, 6800' runway, and 50deg day. > Density alt was 7800'. I will likely have to pick a lighter passenger for > our 80-90deg days or fly solo. > > I also did a couple laps around the pattern solo and noticed little > difference in the adjustments. It behaved as expected... climbs like a bat > out of hell :) > > All in all I would say the flap adj. fixed the heavy load w full trim issue > where I needed full back pressure. Thanks to everyone that has added some > input on this. > > Next on the list of items is max rpm. On climb out I see 6180-6200. I have > not done a static rpm test, but I think I should be seeing a little more > load.. maybe 6400? > > Rudder tab, and maybe a more rpm and I should be golden. > > Regards, > > aaron > - > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" > To: > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Weight ??? > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" > > > > > I'll check.. I'll be going out to the hanger today to weight everything. I > > hope my 3 misc bathroom scales do the trick. I'll try and calibrate them > all > > to the same before using. > > > > I did some hops in the plane yesterday with my 'heavy' load... myself at > > ~215 and passenger at ~255. The empty weight according to the last W&B > (from > > years ago) is 535.. so total weight with fuel would be slightly over > gross. > > I did the hops without the tail weight. I used full up trim and noted the > > after getting off the ground, I did not have more than an inch maybe two > of > > back stick to play with... > > > > I did look at the flap / alieron droop. The ailerons look level with the > > bottom of the wing, maybe VERY slightly drooped.. I'll get a straight edge > > to it today and have a 2nd person with me to lift on the other side. > However > > my flaps are both drooped , the right drooped an extra 1-2 degrees over > the > > left. I have a left aileron trim tab bent up about 20deg if that matters > to > > this issue. > > > > single occupant, the plane flys great... dual and tail weight it flys > > great... but now that I know that other mk3s dont need extra tail weight > > dual, I really want to fix the problem. I'll let everyone know the figures > > of my new W&B after I get them today. > > > > aaron > > - > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Mike Pierzina" > > To: > > Subject: Kolb-List: Tail Weight ??? > > > > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Mike Pierzina" > > > > > > > Hey Guys, > > > On that tail weight problem of Aaron's...Did anybody ask him > what > > the Height of his Horizontal Stablizer at it's Leading Edge??? > > > Although ,I haven't heard of any being TOO HIGH... > > > > > > I can,t believe the moment from a 14 ft arm(from 10#) > > > Didn't raise suspicion that should have been solved. > > > > > > Sounds like that plane came with a FREE roll of Duct Tape and maybe some > > bailing wire... > > > > > > Gotta Fly... > > > Mike in MN FSII,503 > > > Upolstered my seat, Taping for trim paint on the Tail...it's been more > > work than the seat. > > > > > > > > > --- > > > Sometimes you just have to take the leap > > > and build your wings on the way down... > > > Gotta Fly... > > > > > > > > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;6413623;3807821;f?http://mocda1.com/1/c/563632/113422/313631/313631 > > > AOL users go here: > > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;6413623;3807821;f?http://mocda1.com/1/c/563632/113422/313631/313631 > > > This offer applies to U.S. Residents Only > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:38:08 PM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: doors/windows --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums --> Kolb-List message posted by: "CRAIG M NELSON" ----- Original Message ----- From: possums beautiful cabin!!!!!!!!, love the red black and yellow on white. great looking graphics, . post moor picks. Thanks again. Uncle Craig MKIIIex912uls Here are some old ones that have been posted before - and my old web page that hasn't been updated for 4 years because I lost the password. Most of you have seen them before and are tired of them. Me and John been flyin this junk since 1983. I guess some of you others have too. Nice hobby - kinda like golf - you can start when your old and just keep dong it till you can't walk anymore. http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/possums@mindspring.com.10.01.2003/Panel.jpg http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/possums@mindspring.com.09.27.2003/Seat1.jpg http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/possums@mindspring.com.09.27.2003/Seat3.jpg http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/possums@mindspring.com.02.09.2003/1Warm3.jpg http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/possums@mindspring.com.07.26.2002/thum.jpg http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/possums@mindspring.com.05.31.2002/FlyFishin.jpg ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:35 PM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: doors/windows --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums At 06:37 PM 11/16/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums my old web page http://www.mindspring.com/~possums/ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:07:49 PM PST US From: Bob Bean Subject: Kolb-List: W&B --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean -All three wheels on the ground??? No way. Correct attitude for weighing involves significantly higher tailwheel position. Time for a level and protractor. -BB do not archive. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:44 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Proper Prop? --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike IMHO, the optimum prop diameter for a 503 w/2.58:1 is a 66" 2 blade Warp Drive. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (42oldPoops) At 11:55 AM 11/16/03 -0600, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: george murphy > >Can anyone tell me what is the recommended prop diameter for a Firestar >running a 503 with a B-type gearbox? I have a 2 blade 66" Warp Drive but am >considering changing to a Three Blade Warp. What is the optimum diameter >when running a 3 blade vs. the Two Blade?? Thanks G. Murphy/ 89 Firestar/ >Alpine, Alabama > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:35 PM PST US From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: W&B / Tail Weight --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" ok... I was so erked at myself for forgetting to raise the tail to get the right angle of attack that I drove back out to the hanger and redid the W&B... now I have real results. I ended up with the same total weight (good thing) but with the right angle of attack (tail raised a bunch) I lost 10 pounds in the tail and gained 10 on the mains. Here are the new numbers. They make more sense too: left wheel: 265 : 5" right wheel: 276 : 5" tail wheel: 78 : 210" pilot: 217 : -6" pass: 256 : -6" Gas: in plane weight (10gal... est 60lbs) : 18.5 Total Weight (w/10gal): 1092 Total Moment: 16,655 Result Dist: 15.252 %CG: 23.83 --- ok a couple more just to know solo and light pilot limits: solo (just my lard butt at 217. full gas): 34.00 solo (light 160 pounder. full gas): 37.17 - These numbers look like they all add up to me. Anything look off now? aaron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: W&B / Tail Weight > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" > > arg.... I just remembered reading about the angle of attack on on the wing > for doing a W&B. I hope like hell that all three wheels on the ground is ~ > the angle of attack needed.. I think the manual said L.E 7.5 inches above > level (straight edge level from back of wing). Otherwise all my data below > may be a bit off :/ > > aaron > - > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" > To: > Subject: Kolb-List: W&B / Tail Weight > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" > > > > > Ok.. .I did a W&B on my mk3. I did the W&B worst case: myself at 217lbs > and > > my father at 256lbs. That is 473lbs of beef. Here is the breakdown.. > eyeball > > my math #s and tell me if something looks way off: > > > > With full gas (10 Gallons.. no passengers) > > > > left wheel > > 262 lbs > > +5 from L.E > > > > right wheel > > 269 lbs > > +5 from L.E > > > > Tail Wheel > > 88 lbs > > +201 from L.E > > > > Pilot > > 217 lbs > > -6 from L.E > > > > Passenger > > 256 lbs > > -6 from L.E > > > > Gas > > 0lbs (included in plane weight. 10 gallons) > > +18.5 from L.E > > > > Total Weight: 1092 lbs (yes I realize this is over gross) > > Total Moment: 18,615 > > Result Dist: 17.046 > > %CG: 26.635 > > > > --- > > I'm happy to see that this is well within the 20% - 37% limits. I redid > the > > math without any gas weight and the %cg barely moved. From 26.635 to > 26.500. > > I thought it would move more forward without the gas weight? > > > > ------ > > > > Ok.. now on to the tail weight issue. I checked to see if my ailerons and > > full up flaps to be level with the bottom edge of my wing. The ailerons > > looked perfect. The flaps were a good (guess) 5-6degrees drooped. I > adjusted > > the flaps to be exactly flush with the wing and ailerons. Without any tail > > weight and doing fast taxi and hops with my 250 lbs passenger here is what > I > > saw: I set full up elevator, added full rpm and we started rolling. I > pulled > > the tail off at about 40-45. While holding close to full back elevator, we > > came off the ground at about 62-65 so I leveled a few feet and started a > > gentle climb at 65-67. I did a couple hops like this and a third I used > one > > notch of flaps to see if it lessened the roll. It did by about 20-25% I > > would guess. When getting 15-20' I would level off then nose down and > slowly > > pull power to land. I seemed to have plenty of elevator authority to > decent > > and level off. Other than a longer roll than I remembered with the tail > > weight, I would say the adjustment fixed my issue with having to hold too > > much back stick. > > > > I did once around the pattern at this weight and noted sluggish climb at > > 200-400' min on the vsi. It is not stellar performance but not that bad > > considering the beef on board, full fuel, 6800' runway, and 50deg day. > > Density alt was 7800'. I will likely have to pick a lighter passenger for > > our 80-90deg days or fly solo. > > > > I also did a couple laps around the pattern solo and noticed little > > difference in the adjustments. It behaved as expected... climbs like a bat > > out of hell :) > > > > All in all I would say the flap adj. fixed the heavy load w full trim > issue > > where I needed full back pressure. Thanks to everyone that has added some > > input on this. > > > > Next on the list of items is max rpm. On climb out I see 6180-6200. I have > > not done a static rpm test, but I think I should be seeing a little more > > load.. maybe 6400? > > > > Rudder tab, and maybe a more rpm and I should be golden. > > > > Regards, > > > > aaron > > - > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" > > To: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Weight ??? > > > > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" > > > > > > > > I'll check.. I'll be going out to the hanger today to weight everything. > I > > > hope my 3 misc bathroom scales do the trick. I'll try and calibrate them > > all > > > to the same before using. > > > > > > I did some hops in the plane yesterday with my 'heavy' load... myself at > > > ~215 and passenger at ~255. The empty weight according to the last W&B > > (from > > > years ago) is 535.. so total weight with fuel would be slightly over > > gross. > > > I did the hops without the tail weight. I used full up trim and noted > the > > > after getting off the ground, I did not have more than an inch maybe two > > of > > > back stick to play with... > > > > > > I did look at the flap / alieron droop. The ailerons look level with the > > > bottom of the wing, maybe VERY slightly drooped.. I'll get a straight > edge > > > to it today and have a 2nd person with me to lift on the other side. > > However > > > my flaps are both drooped , the right drooped an extra 1-2 degrees over > > the > > > left. I have a left aileron trim tab bent up about 20deg if that matters > > to > > > this issue. > > > > > > single occupant, the plane flys great... dual and tail weight it flys > > > great... but now that I know that other mk3s dont need extra tail weight > > > dual, I really want to fix the problem. I'll let everyone know the > figures > > > of my new W&B after I get them today. > > > > > > aaron > > > - > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Mike Pierzina" > > > To: > > > Subject: Kolb-List: Tail Weight ??? > > > > > > > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Mike Pierzina" > > > > > > > > > > Hey Guys, > > > > On that tail weight problem of Aaron's...Did anybody ask him > > what > > > the Height of his Horizontal Stablizer at it's Leading Edge??? > > > > Although ,I haven't heard of any being TOO HIGH... > > > > > > > > I can,t believe the moment from a 14 ft arm(from 10#) > > > > Didn't raise suspicion that should have been solved. > > > > > > > > Sounds like that plane came with a FREE roll of Duct Tape and maybe > some > > > bailing wire... > > > > > > > > Gotta Fly... > > > > Mike in MN FSII,503 > > > > Upolstered my seat, Taping for trim paint on the Tail...it's been > more > > > work than the seat. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > Sometimes you just have to take the leap > > > > and build your wings on the way down... > > > > Gotta Fly... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;6413623;3807821;f?http://mocda1.com/1/c/563632/113422/313631/313631 > > > > AOL users go here: > > > > > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;6413623;3807821;f?http://mocda1.com/1/c/563632/113422/313631/313631 > > > > This offer applies to U.S. Residents Only > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:30 PM PST US From: Timandjan@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: Ultra-Com helmet for sale --> Kolb-List message posted by: Timandjan@aol.com I am selling an ultra-com helmet and patch cord on Ebay for the widow of a club member who was killed in a crash a few weeks back. It's like new if anyone needs a helmet, sorry to advertise here but it's a great deal if anyone needs one and the funds go to his wife. Other club members sold most of his other stuff and I volunteered to sell this for them on ebay. Here is the link, bidding starts at $150.00 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=26436& item=2443418125 thanks Tim ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:09 PM PST US From: "bryan green" Subject: Kolb-List: Prop --> Kolb-List message posted by: "bryan green" Bryan/Gang: Do I understand you to say you will buy an IVO because Warp Drive does not have a web site? john h The answer is no John I did not take time to make sure I understood the Original post and went from eyeball to finger without going through brain. Do not archive. Bryan Green Elgin SC Firestar I 377 BRS ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:51 PM PST US From: "Denny Rowe" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Weight ??? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" > > I measured the height of the leading edge of the horiz stab. I measured from > the bottom of the horiz stab. to the bottom of the boom tube. I got 5 > inches. Does this sound right? > > aaron Yep Aaron, That sounds about right. Denny Rowe, Mk- 3 -90, PA ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:31 PM PST US From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Weight ??? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" I did some searching through the archives and I am a bit confused about what raising the leading edge of the horiz stab. does? When I measured mine today I looked up the drawings in the plans and noted that a raised LE is not the standard configuration. The leading edge is a good bit higher than the trailing edge. The bottom of the leading edge is ~5inched to the bottom of the boom. I would guess 2/3rds up the boom vs. the standard centered angle. Could this have some to do with the minimized up elevator I see at heavy 2 person loads? Moving the flaps to a flat with the bottom of the wing position definitely helped cut down the back pressure needed on climbout, but it did little for the amount of elevator left on climb (maybe an inch more than needed). Aaron - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Weight ??? > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" > > I measured the height of the leading edge of the horiz stab. I measured from > the bottom of the horiz stab. to the bottom of the boom tube. I got 5 > inches. Does this sound right? > > aaron > - > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Pierzina" > To: > Subject: Kolb-List: Tail Weight ??? > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Mike Pierzina" > > > > Hey Guys, > > On that tail weight problem of Aaron's...Did anybody ask him what > the Height of his Horizontal Stablizer at it's Leading Edge??? > > Although ,I haven't heard of any being TOO HIGH... > > > > I can,t believe the moment from a 14 ft arm(from 10#) > > Didn't raise suspicion that should have been solved. > > > > Sounds like that plane came with a FREE roll of Duct Tape and maybe some > bailing wire... > > > > Gotta Fly... > > Mike in MN FSII,503 > > Upolstered my seat, Taping for trim paint on the Tail...it's been more > work than the seat. > > > > > > --- > > Sometimes you just have to take the leap > > and build your wings on the way down... > > Gotta Fly... > > > > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;6413623;3807821;f?http://mocda1.com/1/c/563632/113422/313631/313631 > > AOL users go here: > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;6413623;3807821;f?http://mocda1.com/1/c/563632/113422/313631/313631 > > This offer applies to U.S. Residents Only > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:17 PM PST US From: "Denny Rowe" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: W&B / Tail Weight --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" > > > --- > > > I'm happy to see that this is well within the 20% - 37% limits. Aaron, Bad news, you have an old set of Mk-3 plans with a small error in the Weight and Balance sheet, the correct range for your aircraft is 25% to 37%, not 20 to 37. It looks like you are a little out the front when fully loaded, but if it flies OK, you might be alright anyhow, check with Kolb to make sure. I have plans dated 1990 and my plans had the same error on page 43, Rev-0, Copyright 1990. If I loaded my airplane the same as yours, (two heavy dudes) I would also be out the front of the envelope, our planes are very simular in balance, but my empty weight is 475 -485 pounds. My max forward CG figures out with me at 185 pounds and a 240 pound passenger gives a CG of 25.0087%, however I have taken as much as 250 pounds in the passenger seat and had a few notches of elevator trim to spare. Sincerely, Denny Rowe, Mk-3 N616DR ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:29 PM PST US From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: W&B / Tail Weight --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" Thanks for the info. I wont be flying nearly this heavy a load 99% of the time. I need to keep my old man and I on a diet. Considering he is down to 250 from 300, and I'm down to 215 from 250.... a month or two and maybe we will be confortably within the CG range. Interesting note: I did another W&B with 8 pounds added to the tail (I found the weight the exowner used to be 8 not the 10-15 I thought it was). I get 25.89 % CG with the heavy load. That puts the total load at 1102. Considering the previous owner mentioned one of his most frequent passengers was 260 and he is 220, I am starting to understand why he used the tail weight. My change of the flaps today (level with wing bottom) did make it very flyable without holding much pressure back on climbout, but I still had only a little extra up elevator. BTW is 6 lbs per gallon accurate? I used the figure as it is what I remembered from doing W&B work for GA lessons. I know others have flown with heavier loads than me, but considering my airport is at 6800'.... I was impressed to see ~300fpm climb with that load (w my 618). No hot day flying at that load though! I Will have to find a lighter passenger and/or loose some more of my fat boy. I do need to repitch the prop. I am only seeing 6180-6200rpm on climb out. I would like to see 6400 or so. About how much difference in rpm do you see between static tests and climbouts (assuming climbing out at 65mph)? aaron - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Denny Rowe" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: W&B / Tail Weight > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" > To: > > > > --- > > > > I'm happy to see that this is well within the 20% - 37% limits. > > Aaron, > Bad news, you have an old set of Mk-3 plans with a small error in the Weight > and Balance sheet, the correct range for your aircraft is 25% to 37%, not 20 > to 37. > It looks like you are a little out the front when fully loaded, but if it > flies OK, you might be alright anyhow, check with Kolb to make sure. > I have plans dated 1990 and my plans had the same error on page 43, Rev-0, > Copyright 1990. > If I loaded my airplane the same as yours, (two heavy dudes) I would also be > out the front of the envelope, our planes are very simular in balance, but > my empty weight is 475 -485 pounds. My max forward CG figures out with me at > 185 pounds and a 240 pound passenger gives a CG of 25.0087%, however I have > taken as much as 250 pounds in the passenger seat and had a few notches of > elevator trim to spare. > Sincerely, > Denny Rowe, Mk-3 N616DR > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:14 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Weight ??? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" If you have watched a Kolb MKIII in flight you would understand what's going on. The tail rides fairly high in flight. Remember the position the tail was in when you did the weight and balance. The horizontal stabilizer tries to seek a neutral angel of attack in this raised position and keeps the wing in a slightly positive angle of attack. Normally we measure the leading edge in relation to the top of the fuselage tube were the plans call for the top edge to be even with the top of the tube. Remember you now have the flaps and the ailerons at the starting point for final tuning of your airplane. You need to experiment with the flap and aileron setting to get the best overall performance and feel. You May find that the flaps and ailerons need to be raised a bit more to keep from flying with the elevator deflected upward and causing drag when flying heavy. Some people have found that lowering the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer an inch from plans helps but you want to try flaps/ailerons first. Be careful with that over gross flying. I wouldn't recommend it in rough air and be happy that your not 10lbs heaver (tail weight) when your already over gross. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Weight ??? > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" > > I did some searching through the archives and I am a bit confused about what > raising the leading edge of the horiz stab. does? When I measured mine today > I looked up the drawings in the plans and noted that a raised LE is not the > standard configuration. The leading edge is a good bit higher than the > trailing edge. The bottom of the leading edge is ~5inched to the bottom of > the boom. I would guess 2/3rds up the boom vs. the standard centered angle. > > Could this have some to do with the minimized up elevator I see at heavy 2 > person loads? Moving the flaps to a flat with the bottom of the wing > position definitely helped cut down the back pressure needed on climbout, > but it did little for the amount of elevator left on climb (maybe an inch > more than needed). > > Aaron ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:51 PM PST US From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: W&B / Tail Weight --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Hollingsworth" you mention your empty weight is ~485... mine is 559. What engine? That is a big difference. 559 is no gas, but I keep my headsets, com etc in the cockpit (few pounds at most). It does have a larger battery in it though. aaron - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Denny Rowe" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: W&B / Tail Weight > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aaron Hollingsworth" > To: > > > > --- > > > > I'm happy to see that this is well within the 20% - 37% limits. > > Aaron, > Bad news, you have an old set of Mk-3 plans with a small error in the Weight > and Balance sheet, the correct range for your aircraft is 25% to 37%, not 20 > to 37. > It looks like you are a little out the front when fully loaded, but if it > flies OK, you might be alright anyhow, check with Kolb to make sure. > I have plans dated 1990 and my plans had the same error on page 43, Rev-0, > Copyright 1990. > If I loaded my airplane the same as yours, (two heavy dudes) I would also be > out the front of the envelope, our planes are very simular in balance, but > my empty weight is 475 -485 pounds. My max forward CG figures out with me at > 185 pounds and a 240 pound passenger gives a CG of 25.0087%, however I have > taken as much as 250 pounds in the passenger seat and had a few notches of > elevator trim to spare. > Sincerely, > Denny Rowe, Mk-3 N616DR > >