Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:39 AM - Re: Brake systems (Denny Rowe)
2. 03:23 AM - Re: Dennis Souder (Airgriff2@aol.com)
3. 07:00 AM - Re: Re: Propellor (Thom Riddle)
4. 11:28 AM - Re: Propellor (jerb)
5. 12:01 PM - heat treating -- 4130 gear legs (Ben Ransom)
6. 12:19 PM - Re: Propellor (Dennis Souder)
7. 12:55 PM - Re: Propellor (Ben Ransom)
8. 12:56 PM - Re: Dennis Souder (Dennis Souder)
9. 01:28 PM - Re: Dennis Souder (Terry)
10. 01:37 PM - Prince p-tip prop (Clay Stuart)
11. 03:08 PM - Re: Prince p-tip prop (Ben Ransom)
12. 03:56 PM - Corrected Airspeeds (Richard Pike)
13. 04:25 PM - Re: Propellor (Guy Morgan)
14. 04:36 PM - Re: heat treating -- 4130 gear legs (Bob Bean)
15. 04:55 PM - failure (Paul Petty)
16. 05:45 PM - Re: Propellor (Richard Pike)
17. 06:16 PM - Re: failure (Richard Pike)
18. 07:54 PM - Re: Propellor (jerb)
19. 08:12 PM - Re: Prince p-tip prop (Dennis Souder)
20. 08:19 PM - Re: Propellor (jerb)
21. 09:00 PM - Re: Propellor (Earl & Mim Zimmerman)
22. 09:18 PM - Re: Propellor (Richard Pike)
23. 09:27 PM - Re: Propellor (Dennis Souder)
24. 10:16 PM - Re: Propellor (herbgh@juno.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Brake systems |
DOMAIN_4U2
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
Giovanni,
Myself and many other Mk-3 drivers use Matco hydralic discs on Matco 6 inch
wheels, I am very happy with mine.
Dennis Rowe, Mk-3, 690L-70, PA,
-----
Subject: Kolb-List: Brake systems
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Giovanni Day" <gday@e-dots4u.com>
>
> What brake system is preferred for the MKIII classic.
>
> Giovanni
> MKIII as soon as the quicksilver is gone.
>
> Do not archive
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Dennis Souder |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Airgriff2@aol.com
> Dennis Souder writes:
> >> I am fixing a damaged FF
>> > right now and I already have a new Ivo ready to install.
>>
> Dennis, I know you have been following the list somewhat, but thought you had
gotten away from being active flying for some time due to other interests or
a full schedule. Great to hear you are fixing up a Fire Fly. Hopefully it is
for you to fly? It would be great to see you back in the air having fun again.
Keep us up on how you are doing.
PS I could imagine being at a fly-in, sitting around the camp fire with
guys like John Hauck, John Williamson, and yourself. That would be like going to
Heaven !
Fly Safe
Bob Griffin
do not archive
Message 3
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
Terry and all,
Sorry to say that I do not have any experience with this prop. However, I can tell
you for certain that having the right prop for the airframe engine combination
can make a tremendous difference in performance. An awful lot of folks underestimate
the importance of the right prop and no single prop is best for all
aircraft.
When our Cherokee was in for annual last winter, the IA would not sign off for
return to service because the static rpm was below the minimum by 50 rpm. So I
removed the prop and took it to a really good prop shop in Toronto. This original
(1975) prop was stamped with a 58" pitch but it measured 61" on one side
and 60" on the other side! Apparently the previous owner took a pipe wrench to
it trying to get a little more cruise speed. Anyway, the prop shop repitched
it to 59". The results were incredible. We lost about 2 knots in cruise speed
but increased gross wt. initial climb rate under standard conditions from about
600 fpm to 1100 fpm. Worth it in my book.
Thom in Buffalo
do not archive
Message 4
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
Dennis,
Good to see your still lurking on the list. Have you had any exposure to
the Powerfin prop?
jerb
At 10:45 PM 12/11/03 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Souder" <flykolb@pa.net>
>
>Hi Terry,
>
>Prince makes a beautiful propeller! We had one on the Laser it looked very
>nice with spinner ... and was the fastest prop of every one we tried. If
>you had a Laser that needed a prop I would probably say it would be a toss
>up between a Prince and Warp (the Warp would give a bit less top end, but
>the acceleration and climb would be significantly better than the Prince.
>But my preferene for the FF is still the Ivo. I am fixing a damaged FF
>right now and I already have a new Ivo ready to install.
>
>Look around and ask lots of questions - lots out there to learn about props.
>
>Dennis
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Terry" <tkrolfe@usadatanet.net>
>To: "kolb-list" <Kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Kolb-List: Propellor
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Terry <tkrolfe@usadatanet.net>
> >
> > All,
> >
> > Has anyone had any experience with the Prince P-tip propellor? It
> > seems like an interesting idea!
> >
> > Terry - FireFly #95
> >
> >
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | heat treating -- 4130 gear legs |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Ben Ransom <bwr000@yahoo.com>
Hi all,
I'm trying to get the 4130 gear leg subject as fun as Seafoam
discussions of days gone by. Just funnin you Ralph!
Anyway.... I made a second set of 4130 legs and sent them to Braddock.
Before sending them, I talked with the plant manager about unwanted
bending and he said a rule of thumb was 0.001" bend per 1" of length.
Oooh Yeah, says I, this sounds great; I'd be happy with a bend
tolerence of 3x or 4x that -- about 1/8" over 34". (One could also say
this rule of thumb sounds too good to be true.)
OK, got em back and one leg is 1/8" out of straight and the other is
almost 3/8"! 1/8 is acceptable, but 3/8 is not. So, I called Braddock
back and the plant manager is willing to try to straighten the leg. He
said the method is to apply mild heat and straighten. He says the
hardness quality won't change as long as the heat is kept low, dull
red. But I have my doubts about this claim. Does anyone know?
In reality, I'd rather shorten a leg by a tiny bit than screw up the
hardness. Glad I didn't finalize all holes before sending these off!
-Ben Ransom
=====
http://mae.ucdavis.edu/~ransom
__________________________________
Message 6
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Souder" <flykolb@pa.net>
Hi Jerb,
No I haven't; but I have heard good things about it. I am not sure I could
qualify as even being a lurker this past year - but now that winters here,
I do have a little more time - but ... my shop beckons ...
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerb" <ulflyer@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Propellor
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
>
> Dennis,
> Good to see your still lurking on the list. Have you had any exposure to
> the Powerfin prop?
> jerb
>
> At 10:45 PM 12/11/03 -0500, you wrote:
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Souder" <flykolb@pa.net>
> >
> >Hi Terry,
> >
> >Prince makes a beautiful propeller! We had one on the Laser it looked
very
> >nice with spinner ... and was the fastest prop of every one we tried. If
> >you had a Laser that needed a prop I would probably say it would be a
toss
> >up between a Prince and Warp (the Warp would give a bit less top end, but
> >the acceleration and climb would be significantly better than the Prince.
> >But my preferene for the FF is still the Ivo. I am fixing a damaged FF
> >right now and I already have a new Ivo ready to install.
> >
> >Look around and ask lots of questions - lots out there to learn about
props.
> >
> >Dennis
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Terry" <tkrolfe@usadatanet.net>
> >To: "kolb-list" <Kolb-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Kolb-List: Propellor
> >
> >
> > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Terry <tkrolfe@usadatanet.net>
> > >
> > > All,
> > >
> > > Has anyone had any experience with the Prince P-tip propellor? It
> > > seems like an interesting idea!
> > >
> > > Terry - FireFly #95
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 7
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Ben Ransom <bwr000@yahoo.com>
Terry
My take on previous prop discussions -- on this list and elsewhere:
Ivo: smoothest but least efficient. Great for the smaller engines,
and what the heck, we generally aren't entering in the CAFE races
anyway.
Warp: Most efficient, Great for the bigger engines. Hi rotational
inertia makes them rattle the smaller engines, and rumored detriment to
smaller gearboxes (RotaxB).
Powerfin: somewhere in between on both counts (smoothness and
performance).
Wood (Culver or Tennessee?): almost as good as the Warp in
performance, but the added risk of wood props as a pusher.
I've got a Warp 66" high aspect and a Powerfin 60" (B I think) on a
447. I've got just a little time (15 hours?) on the Powerfin compared
to 180 on the Warp. The Warp is noticably better performance -- maybe
150fpm better climb, and slightly better cruise (2-5mph). I've thought
it shakes more near idle, but want to put it back on to compare again.
I sit on another list (Murphy) where people generally use Sensenich
metal props on Lyc 0320s. These are good, efficient (and expensive)
props. A few have recently changed to the Prince carbon prop and found
it 10% higher thrust, 100fpm better climb and 25lbs lighter(!!) than
the Sensenich, not to mention a work of art as far as looks go. Also
cheaper than the FAA stamped Sensenich. But don't bank much on this
info, as I have no idea if their props for small engines are good or
good value.
-Ben Ransom
=====
http://mae.ucdavis.edu/~ransom
__________________________________
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Dennis Souder |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Souder" <flykolb@pa.net>
Hi Bob,
The scenario you describe would be very nice! But the rest of the family
is not greatly interested in airplanes; I lean in their direction and have
been doing other activities things like kayaking, hiking & biking. My
daughter is growing up fast (she's 11 now) and I want to do things with her
before she spreads her wings. I have been riding my bike to work most days,
about a 10 mile round trip, and I have come to really enjoy biking. I'm
building an airboat this winter along with fixing the Fly and I hope to make
more progress on a twin engine 1-seat very light plane that sorta like an
UltraStar crossed with a Flyer - something I have always wanted. Power
will be two 532s (which I have sitting around). Wing span is 36 ft and it
is just a SSTOL (super stol) to get out of my very short strip and fly very
slowly around the beautiful valley in which we live. Susquehanna river is
only a couple miles away and I want to fly the river alongside the airboats.
Thanks for the note.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: <Airgriff2@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dennis Souder
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Airgriff2@aol.com
>
>
> > Dennis Souder writes:
> > >> I am fixing a damaged FF
> >> > right now and I already have a new Ivo ready to install.
> >>
> > Dennis, I know you have been following the list somewhat, but thought
you had
> gotten away from being active flying for some time due to other interests
or
> a full schedule. Great to hear you are fixing up a Fire Fly. Hopefully it
is
> for you to fly? It would be great to see you back in the air having fun
again.
> Keep us up on how you are doing.
> PS I could imagine being at a fly-in, sitting around the camp fire with
> guys like John Hauck, John Williamson, and yourself. That would be like
going to
> Heaven !
>
> Fly Safe
> Bob Griffin
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 9
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Terry" <tswartz@hydrosoft.net>
Dennis,
I've flown over your area several times this summer, each time wondering
where your at. As I recall you have a landing strip at your place. If you
know the GPS coordinates I'll plug them in my GPS and at least circle your
place next time I fly over that way. Probably not till it gets warmer. If
you don't know the GPS coordinates I can use your address to get the
coordinates.
Happy Holidays!
Terry Swartz MKIII
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dennis Souder
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dennis Souder
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Souder" <flykolb@pa.net>
Hi Bob,
The scenario you describe would be very nice! But the rest of the family
is not greatly interested in airplanes; I lean in their direction and have
been doing other activities things like kayaking, hiking & biking. My
daughter is growing up fast (she's 11 now) and I want to do things with her
before she spreads her wings. I have been riding my bike to work most days,
about a 10 mile round trip, and I have come to really enjoy biking. I'm
building an airboat this winter along with fixing the Fly and I hope to make
more progress on a twin engine 1-seat very light plane that sorta like an
UltraStar crossed with a Flyer - something I have always wanted. Power
will be two 532s (which I have sitting around). Wing span is 36 ft and it
is just a SSTOL (super stol) to get out of my very short strip and fly very
slowly around the beautiful valley in which we live. Susquehanna river is
only a couple miles away and I want to fly the river alongside the airboats.
Thanks for the note.
Dennis
Message 10
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| Subject: | Prince p-tip prop |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Clay Stuart" <tcstuart@adelphia.net>
I posed a question about the Prince P-tip prop several months ago and got no response.
It sounds great- a self-adjusting in-flight prop that promises less noise.
The prop cones forward on takeoff, decreasing the pitch in the process.
As cruise is reached, the coning is reduced and the pitch is increased. It
says the change in pitch is 4 inches from takeoff to cruise. It comes in wood/composite
in 2,3 and 4 blades. I don't know if anyone has one on a Kolb. I
would be very interested in one for my Mark IIIXtra, but I wonder if the coning
would cause clearance problems with the pusher configuration. Other concerns
would be high cost. The way I compute it the cost would be $900 for a 70" two
blade prop and 3 times that for a 3-blade prop according to the ACS catalog
formula (maybe I'm wrong). The other concern would be the non-adjustability
of the prop. If there are some Mark IIIs or similar planes flying with this prop,
you would have an idea where to start with pitch, but I wouldn't want to
be the test pilot for a new application on my Xtra. Maybe Prince is easy to work
with and could come up with the proper match for someone.
There is a very good description of this prop in Aircraft Spruce (p. 167 in the
newest catalog)
Clay Stuart
building Mark IIIXtra
Danville KY
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Prince p-tip prop |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Ben Ransom <bwr000@yahoo.com>
--- Clay Stuart <tcstuart@adelphia.net> wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Clay Stuart"
> <tcstuart@adelphia.net>
>
> I posed a question about the Prince P-tip prop several months ago and
> got no response. It sounds great- a self-adjusting in-flight prop
> that promises less noise. The prop cones forward on takeoff,
> decreasing the pitch in the process. As cruise is reached, the
> coning is reduced and the pitch is increased. It says the change in
BTW, the method by which Warp achieves it's so-called automatic varible
pitch has been pondered in the past too. One nice theory was that at
high AOA such as when the plane is going slow, the tips are actually
stalling, therefore unloading just a tad, and allowing higher rpms. At
higher airplane speed, lower relative AOA of the prop, no tip stalling
and full bite of the air column. But then someone surprised me by
saying that know for sure that the Warp cones forward just as the
Prince. I always thought the Warps were too stiff but the user said
he's seen it, and it too is about 4" flex (this on a 150hp engine and
matched Warp prop).
As for 'good to work with', I've heard that Prince fits that bill, and
I know from personal experience that Warp fits that too. The pitch
numbers on Prince props will sound flat (fine pitch) -- so don't be
fooled; I'd go by their recommendation. All in all tho, my personal
preference would be for the ground adjustable Warp.
-Ben
do not archive
=====
http://mae.ucdavis.edu/~ransom
__________________________________
Message 12
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| Subject: | Corrected Airspeeds |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
A couple days ago I got a question off-list from someone who asked the very
reasonable question, "You said you got 95 mph out of your MKIII: how are
you determining your airspeeds?"
Well, I have a Winter airspeed, I calibrated it with the gps, flying
various directions on calm days, and it is accurate between 50 and 80,
below fifty it gradually reads too slow, reading 20 at 27 actual.
"But how about at 90 or above? If it reads too slow at the slow end, how do
you know it doesn't read too fast at the fast end?"
Well, that stopped me cold. I didn't know. Any time I ever flew it up
around 90 or more, I was being very focused, and not thinking about playing
with the gps. But now I needed to find out, so this afternoon I went
flying. Perfect winter day, 39 degrees, dead calm.
At 3,500', it was smooth as glass, flying westbound, pegged the airspeed on
90, and waited for the gps to totally settle down.
85 mph. Hmmm...
Turned northeast, airspeed on 90, gps on 80. Hmmm...
Turned southeast, airspeed on 90, gps on 90. Hmmm...
Guess it won't go 95 after all, which means that my various mods have made
it possible to cruise in the 70's at lower throttle settings, (which is
what I wanted in the first place) but haven't really increased top speed
very much. So it looks like unless and until we can find some way to
overcome the short, fat fuselage syndrome of the MKIII Classic, (without
cloning it into an Xtra fuselage) 88 to 90 with a 582 is as good as it gets.
Hmmm... ...I can live with that. Very happily.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
Message 13
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Guy Morgan" <morganguy@hotmail.com>
All this prop talk got me to wondering. Do any of these props yall are talkin about
require dynamic balancing? I use two different models of Chadwick-Helmuth
balancers on our helos. Sure does make a big difference in the ride withproperly
track balanced rotor systems. The Chadwicks will do prop balancing too. It's
amazing how much a few grams of weight in the wrong place can throw your ips
measurement right off the chart. Lemme know if any of yall have had your prop
dynamically balanced. May be worth it to try, might add some hours to the powerplant's
life.
Guy Morgan
Galveston, TX (helo mech, avionics tech, MXII Sprint jockey, Kolber wanna-be)
<a href="http://g.msn.com/8HMBENUS/2746??PS=">Winterize your home with tips from MSN House & Home.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: heat treating -- 4130 gear legs |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
Ben, I would bend them cold, when the steel legs on Citabrias and
Cessnas got bent you could bend them straight at least once with no
problems, provided they weren't too far gone. It will take several
attempts on a press to get near what you want, measuring total deflection
each attempt. I was surprised how much of a banana it took to
straighten an aluminum leg. -BB
Ben Ransom wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Ben Ransom <bwr000@yahoo.com>
>
>Hi all,
>I'm trying to get the 4130 gear leg subject as fun as Seafoam
>discussions of days gone by. Just funnin you Ralph!
>
>Anyway.... I made a second set of 4130 legs and sent them to Braddock.
>Before sending them, I talked with the plant manager about unwanted
>bending and he said a rule of thumb was 0.001" bend per 1" of length.
>Oooh Yeah, says I, this sounds great; I'd be happy with a bend
>tolerence of 3x or 4x that -- about 1/8" over 34". (One could also say
>this rule of thumb sounds too good to be true.)
>
>OK, got em back and one leg is 1/8" out of straight and the other is
>almost 3/8"! 1/8 is acceptable, but 3/8 is not. So, I called Braddock
>back and the plant manager is willing to try to straighten the leg. He
>said the method is to apply mild heat and straighten. He says the
>hardness quality won't change as long as the heat is kept low, dull
>red. But I have my doubts about this claim. Does anyone know?
>
>In reality, I'd rather shorten a leg by a tiny bit than screw up the
>hardness. Glad I didn't finalize all holes before sending these off!
>-Ben Ransom
>
>=====
>http://mae.ucdavis.edu/~ransom
>
>__________________________________
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
Kolbers,
As I build my airplane,work on my private pilots ticket, I often refer to many
resources of information to help me better understand what I am doing and getting
into. Often when completing a part or a section I think to myself.. "Is that
right?""Is that safe?".
One of the tools that I have found and read in great detail is the NTSB archives
within the AOPA. If you go to
http://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/search_ntsb.cfm and enter Kolb it gives you every "reported" incident with Kolb aircraft from 1986 to as recent as 10/19/2003. 52 in all. It amazes me at how most of these crashes happened. And furthermore how the FAA and the reporting pilots "that survive" explain their discoveries. This one really has me scratching my head. Perhaps someone could shed some light on me about this mishap.
" The pilot stated that prior to the flight, the horizontal stabilizers which had
been folded up were extended. He attached the lower (?elevator flight control
cables?) and performed a preflight inspection of the airplane; he does not
have a preflight checklist. Following the preflight, he started the engine and
taxied to runway 24, and after landing traffic cleared the runway, he taxied
onto the runway and applied power to takeoff. The airplane became airborne and
when the flight was approximately 15 to 20 feet above ground level, he heard
a "boom" sound, and experienced an immediate loss of elevator control. The airplane
began a right turn and pitched nosed down. He reduced throttle to idle,
and the airplane impacted the ground between runways 24 and 27. He later stated
the leading edge of the right horizontal stabilizer rotated up 90 degrees.
Each horizontal stabilizer (stabilizer) is structurally attached to the boom tube
at the front and rear of each stabilizer. Additionally, a flying wire attaches
to the top and bottom of each stabilizer. The front of each stabilizer is
secured to the boom tube by a(? clevis and a safety pin which secures through
a u-shaped bracket on the boom tube and a mating fitting on the stabilizer. The
rear of each stabilizer is secured to the boom tube by a 1/4 inch diameter
bolt and self locking nut which goes through a hinge.?) According to the pilot,
postaccident the forward clevis pin and safety pin of the right stabilizer was
not located. The upper and lower flying wires of the right stabilizer were
not failed, and the 1/4 inch diameter bolt of the aft attach point was in-place."
I inserted the statements in question with (?......?)
huh?
Paul Petty
Building Ms. Dixie
Kolbra/912UL/Warp
do not archive
Message 16
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
Not very Kolb related, but since it looks like a slow night on the list...
A few years ago a company from Knoxville came to Mountain City Airport to a
fly-in, offering to balance props for free to anybody that wanted it, just
to attract business. One of our locals had a powered parachute with a three
blade Ivo on it, and he had all kinds of vibration. (Probably had something
to do with him modifying the Ivo with a saber saw, but who knows?) They
tested it, added some weights to one side of the hub under the bolt heads,
and he happily took it home.
When the wind died down that evening, he attempted a take off but the chute
didn't inflate properly, he ran it over a bank off the end of his runway,
cart wheeled the whole mess end over end a time or two, and destroyed the
chute, the prop guard cage, the motor mounts, and the prop. He crawled from
the wreckage a bit the worse for wear, but managed to stagger back to the
house, concocting a story along the way to explain his wounds to his wife
in a way that did not involve aviation.
But there was a happy ending to the story: I had a three blade Ivo that was
too small for my 532, and I sold it to him. It lasted about 6 months, and
then it met the same fate.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
At 12:25 AM 12/13/03 +0000, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Guy Morgan" <morganguy@hotmail.com>
>
>
>All this prop talk got me to wondering. Do any of these props yall are
>talkin about require dynamic balancing? I use two different models of
>Chadwick-Helmuth balancers on our helos. Sure does make a big difference
>in the ride withproperly track balanced rotor systems. The Chadwicks will
>do prop balancing too. It's amazing how much a few grams of weight in the
>wrong place can throw your ips measurement right off the chart. Lemme know
>if any of yall have had your prop dynamically balanced. May be worth it to
>try, might add some hours to the powerplant's life.
>
>
>Guy Morgan
>
>
>Galveston, TX (helo mech, avionics tech, MXII Sprint jockey, Kolber wanna-be)
Message 17
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
That clevis pin should have been an AN-3 bolt and locknut, it is the front
horizontal stabilizer attach point.
Go to this url,
http://webpages.charter.net/bird82/hauck94a.htm
Look at the front stab mount of Miss P'Fer where she is sitting on the dry
lake bed close-up, and it will make sense.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
At 07:02 PM 12/12/03 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
>
>Kolbers,
>As I build my airplane,work on my private pilots ticket, I often refer to
>many resources of information to help me better understand what I am doing
>and getting into. Often when completing a part or a section I think to
>myself.. "Is that right?""Is that safe?".
>One of the tools that I have found and read in great detail is the NTSB
>archives within the AOPA. If you go to
>http://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/search_ntsb.cfm and enter Kolb it gives you
>every "reported" incident with Kolb aircraft from 1986 to as recent as
>10/19/2003. 52 in all. It amazes me at how most of these crashes happened.
>And furthermore how the FAA and the reporting pilots "that survive"
>explain their discoveries. This one really has me scratching my head.
>Perhaps someone could shed some light on me about this mishap.
>
>" The pilot stated that prior to the flight, the horizontal stabilizers
>which had been folded up were extended. He attached the lower (?elevator
>flight control cables?) and performed a preflight inspection of the
>airplane; he does not have a preflight checklist. Following the preflight,
>he started the engine and taxied to runway 24, and after landing traffic
>cleared the runway, he taxied onto the runway and applied power to
>takeoff. The airplane became airborne and when the flight was
>approximately 15 to 20 feet above ground level, he heard a "boom" sound,
>and experienced an immediate loss of elevator control. The airplane began
>a right turn and pitched nosed down. He reduced throttle to idle, and the
>airplane impacted the ground between runways 24 and 27. He later stated
>the leading edge of the right horizontal stabilizer rotated up 90 degrees.
>Each horizontal stabilizer (stabilizer) is structurally attached to the
>boom tube at the front and rear of each stabilizer. Additi!
>onally, a flying wire attaches to the top and bottom of each stabilizer.
>The front of each stabilizer is secured to the boom tube by a(? clevis and
>a safety pin which secures through a u-shaped bracket on the boom tube and
>a mating fitting on the stabilizer. The rear of each stabilizer is secured
>to the boom tube by a 1/4 inch diameter bolt and self locking nut which
>goes through a hinge.?) According to the pilot, postaccident the forward
>clevis pin and safety pin of the right stabilizer was not located. The
>upper and lower flying wires of the right stabilizer were not failed, and
>the 1/4 inch diameter bolt of the aft attach point was in-place."
>
>I inserted the statements in question with (?......?)
>
>huh?
>
>Paul Petty
>Building Ms. Dixie
>Kolbra/912UL/Warp
>
>
>do not archive
>
>
Message 18
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
Ben,
Could you elaborate more regarding your comment below about the added risk
of wood props as a pusher - the only disadvantages I see of wood props
whether used in a tractor or pusher application are as follows:
1. The blades need to stored in a horizontal position between flights to
keep them balanced as the moisture in the wood will migrate towards the
lowest point making them out of balance.
2. They must be re-torqued on 10-25 hour intervals.
3. They can suffer leading edge erosion if operated in rain. (You have to
see this just once.)
Could you comment more as a performance comparison between the IVO (number
of blade and length) and the Powerfin (type of blades, number, and length).
jerb
snip..
>Wood (Culver or Tennessee?): almost as good as the Warp in
>performance, but the added risk of wood props as a pusher.
snip...
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Prince p-tip prop |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Souder" <flykolb@pa.net>
I am pretty certain the Warp works by stalling the tip - not by coning,
twisting or other means of distortion. The props are dialed in by careful
trimming of the tips - its why they are called taper tips. The shorter
chord at the tip would promote stalling a bit before the wider chord further
in at no-to-low forward speed. As forward speed increases the angle of
inflow to blade lessens and flow becomes attached and the tips start
pulling.
Most props will cone unless it is an over designed propeller. Take a 582
which produces say 375 lbs of thrust. That would be 125 lb per blade for a
3-blade prop. Take a rope and tie it about 2/3 the distance out to the tip
and pull with 125 lbs and you'll see some flex.
Dennis
> BTW, the method by which Warp achieves it's so-called automatic varible
> pitch has been pondered in the past too. One nice theory was that at
> high AOA such as when the plane is going slow, the tips are actually
> stalling, therefore unloading just a tad, and allowing higher rpms. At
> higher airplane speed, lower relative AOA of the prop, no tip stalling
> and full bite of the air column. But then someone surprised me by
> saying that know for sure that the Warp cones forward just as the
> Prince. I always thought the Warps were too stiff but the user said
> he's seen it, and it too is about 4" flex (this on a 150hp engine and
> matched Warp prop).
Message 20
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
Richard,
Not sure what your message is here regarding the original prop and
replacement you supplied him. During the initial prop balancing process if
the guy loosened the prop bolts at the hub, is it possible he might have
some how affected the amount of pitch of the blades - may explain the poor
take off performance. As for the one you furnished, did they do the same
thing and attempt to balance it and repeat the same error? Doesn't sound
like a problem with the props themselves but rather an installation
problem. There are a lot of IVO's around and haven't seen any problem with
the prop themselves other than those that have suffered some prior damage.
jerb
At 08:48 PM 12/12/03 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
>
>Not very Kolb related, but since it looks like a slow night on the list...
>
>A few years ago a company from Knoxville came to Mountain City Airport to a
>fly-in, offering to balance props for free to anybody that wanted it, just
>to attract business. One of our locals had a powered parachute with a three
>blade Ivo on it, and he had all kinds of vibration. (Probably had something
>to do with him modifying the Ivo with a saber saw, but who knows?) They
>tested it, added some weights to one side of the hub under the bolt heads,
>and he happily took it home.
>
>When the wind died down that evening, he attempted a take off but the chute
>didn't inflate properly, he ran it over a bank off the end of his runway,
>cart wheeled the whole mess end over end a time or two, and destroyed the
>chute, the prop guard cage, the motor mounts, and the prop. He crawled from
>the wreckage a bit the worse for wear, but managed to stagger back to the
>house, concocting a story along the way to explain his wounds to his wife
>in a way that did not involve aviation.
>
>But there was a happy ending to the story: I had a three blade Ivo that was
>too small for my 532, and I sold it to him. It lasted about 6 months, and
>then it met the same fate.
>
>Richard Pike
>MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>do not archive
>
>At 12:25 AM 12/13/03 +0000, you wrote:
Message 21
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Earl & Mim Zimmerman <emzi@supernet.com>
Dennis Souder wrote:
> But my preferene for the FF is still the Ivo. I am fixing a damaged FF
> right now and I already have a new Ivo ready to install.
>
> Look around and ask lots of questions - lots out there to learn about props.
Hi Dennis,
Here is my question. I am happy with the Ivo on our MkII. But I own a
Rans S6ES which uses a left hand prop. I understand that Ivo's left hand
blades are different than the right hand blades. Do you or anyone else
on the list have any experience with left hand Ivo's?
P.S. Where along the Susquehanna river do you live? Earl
Zimmerman
MKIIC
582 66" Ivo
Elizabethtown, Pa.
Message 22
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
The guy was a klutz. He crashed every U/L he ever owned.
And staggered away. (Many potential war stories there)
It had nothing to do with it being an Ivo, but everything to do
with the human condition. It was supposed to be amusing... sorry...
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
At 10:26 PM 12/12/03 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
>
>Richard,
>Not sure what your message is here regarding the original prop and
>replacement you supplied him. During the initial prop balancing process if
>the guy loosened the prop bolts at the hub, is it possible he might have
>some how affected the amount of pitch of the blades - may explain the poor
>take off performance. As for the one you furnished, did they do the same
>thing and attempt to balance it and repeat the same error? Doesn't sound
>like a problem with the props themselves but rather an installation
>problem. There are a lot of IVO's around and haven't seen any problem with
>the prop themselves other than those that have suffered some prior damage.
>jerb
>
>
>At 08:48 PM 12/12/03 -0500, you wrote:
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
> >
> >Not very Kolb related, but since it looks like a slow night on the list...
> >
> >A few years ago a company from Knoxville came to Mountain City Airport to a
> >fly-in, offering to balance props for free to anybody that wanted it, just
> >to attract business. One of our locals had a powered parachute with a three
> >blade Ivo on it, and he had all kinds of vibration. (Probably had something
> >to do with him modifying the Ivo with a saber saw, but who knows?) They
> >tested it, added some weights to one side of the hub under the bolt heads,
> >and he happily took it home.
> >
> >When the wind died down that evening, he attempted a take off but the chute
> >didn't inflate properly, he ran it over a bank off the end of his runway,
> >cart wheeled the whole mess end over end a time or two, and destroyed the
> >chute, the prop guard cage, the motor mounts, and the prop. He crawled from
> >the wreckage a bit the worse for wear, but managed to stagger back to the
> >house, concocting a story along the way to explain his wounds to his wife
> >in a way that did not involve aviation.
> >
> >But there was a happy ending to the story: I had a three blade Ivo that was
> >too small for my 532, and I sold it to him. It lasted about 6 months, and
> >then it met the same fate.
> >
> >Richard Pike
> >MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> >
> >do not archive
> >
> >At 12:25 AM 12/13/03 +0000, you wrote:
>
>
Message 23
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Souder" <flykolb@pa.net>
Hi Earl,
Yes, I tried the Ivo on the Laser with Rotax 582 and that is when I realized
how poor they are for higher speeds. This was the only left hand Ivo I had
any experience with and no, I was not aware the left hand prop was different
than the right. (I am assuming that you mean they did not create an exact
mirror image of the right hand prop when the did the left hand version?) I
started with a 66" Ivo on the Laser and then kept cutting it down because I
thought a smaller dia might help the top end. I stopped at 60" and realized
that the Ivo just wasn't designed for higher speeds over 100 mph. But even
on the SS, I felt the Ivo wasn't the best choice. But for FF and FS I think
they are just great. I would think your Rans would be fast enough to
benefit from a prop other than Ivo.
Order of top speed on the Laser: Prince was faster than every other
propeller. Some other 2-blade woods were better than the composites. But
the Prince and 2-blade wood props were only 60" dia. Larger diameters did
not work because a pitch for reasonable take-off was too shallow for top
end. The Warp was the best compromise, it was not quite as fast as the
Prince, but acceleration and climb were much better than the Prince. Today,
the medium Ivo with inflight adjust would probably be a winner.
I live in Millersburg which is about half way between Harrisburg and
Sunbury.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Earl & Mim Zimmerman" <emzi@supernet.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Propellor
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Earl & Mim Zimmerman <emzi@supernet.com>
>
> Dennis Souder wrote:
>
> > But my preferene for the FF is still the Ivo. I am fixing a damaged FF
> > right now and I already have a new Ivo ready to install.
> >
> > Look around and ask lots of questions - lots out there to learn about
props.
>
> Hi Dennis,
> Here is my question. I am happy with the Ivo on our MkII. But I own a
> Rans S6ES which uses a left hand prop. I understand that Ivo's left hand
> blades are different than the right hand blades. Do you or anyone else
> on the list have any experience with left hand Ivo's?
>
> P.S. Where along the Susquehanna river do you live? Earl
> Zimmerman
> MKIIC
> 582 66" Ivo
>
> Elizabethtown, Pa.
>
>
Message 24
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: herbgh@juno.com
Richard
Not to be sorry!! Good story. We need humor--sorta the " legal
substance that lubricates human discourse". We could have used a lot
more of it a few days ago.
Its kinda like K-Y Jelly--woulda made all of those "
insertions/assertions " a lot less painful!:-) Herb in K-y
do not archive
n Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:20:50 -0500 Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
writes:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
>
> The guy was a klutz. He crashed every U/L he ever owned.
> And staggered away. (Many potential war stories there)
> It had nothing to do with it being an Ivo, but everything to do
> with the human condition. It was supposed to be amusing... sorry...
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
> do not archive
>
> At 10:26 PM 12/12/03 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
> >
> >Richard,
> >Not sure what your message is here regarding the original prop and
> >replacement you supplied him. During the initial prop balancing
> process if
> >the guy loosened the prop bolts at the hub, is it possible he might
> have
> >some how affected the amount of pitch of the blades - may explain
> the poor
> >take off performance. As for the one you furnished, did they do
> the same
> >thing and attempt to balance it and repeat the same error? Doesn't
> sound
> >like a problem with the props themselves but rather an
> installation
> >problem. There are a lot of IVO's around and haven't seen any
> problem with
> >the prop themselves other than those that have suffered some prior
> damage.
> >jerb
> >
> >
> >At 08:48 PM 12/12/03 -0500, you wrote:
> > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike
> <rwpike@charter.net>
> > >
> > >Not very Kolb related, but since it looks like a slow night on
> the list...
> > >
> > >A few years ago a company from Knoxville came to Mountain City
> Airport to a
> > >fly-in, offering to balance props for free to anybody that wanted
> it, just
> > >to attract business. One of our locals had a powered parachute
> with a three
> > >blade Ivo on it, and he had all kinds of vibration. (Probably had
> something
> > >to do with him modifying the Ivo with a saber saw, but who
> knows?) They
> > >tested it, added some weights to one side of the hub under the
> bolt heads,
> > >and he happily took it home.
> > >
> > >When the wind died down that evening, he attempted a take off but
> the chute
> > >didn't inflate properly, he ran it over a bank off the end of his
> runway,
> > >cart wheeled the whole mess end over end a time or two, and
> destroyed the
> > >chute, the prop guard cage, the motor mounts, and the prop. He
> crawled from
> > >the wreckage a bit the worse for wear, but managed to stagger
> back to the
> > >house, concocting a story along the way to explain his wounds to
> his wife
> > >in a way that did not involve aviation.
> > >
> > >But there was a happy ending to the story: I had a three blade
> Ivo that was
> > >too small for my 532, and I sold it to him. It lasted about 6
> months, and
> > >then it met the same fate.
> > >
> > >Richard Pike
> > >MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> > >
> > >do not archive
> > >
> > >At 12:25 AM 12/13/03 +0000, you wrote:
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _->
=
>
=
>
=
>
=
>
>
>
>
>
>
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