---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/15/03: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:02 AM - Re: heat treating gear legs (Larry Bourne) 2. 06:32 AM - Re: Ace Hardware aircraft supply (Guy Morgan) 3. 07:34 AM - Heat treating (bryan green) 4. 07:38 AM - Fuel tank (bryan green) 5. 08:43 AM - Re: Ace Hardware aircraft supply (jerb) 6. 09:03 AM - Re: Heat treating (Ben Ransom) 7. 09:19 AM - Re: Ace Hardware aircraft supply (Larry Bourne) 8. 09:21 AM - Re: winter projects (Larry Bourne) 9. 12:21 PM - Straightening (Bob N.) 10. 12:43 PM - Re: Fuel tank (Jim Baker) 11. 01:46 PM - Re: Ace Hardware aircraft supply (Guy Morgan) 12. 03:08 PM - who owns (ronnie wehba) 13. 03:28 PM - Re: Fuel tank (possums) 14. 03:58 PM - Jack's Project (Mike Pierzina) 15. 07:37 PM - Re: winter projects (Russell Phillips) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:02:36 AM PST US From: "Larry Bourne" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: heat treating gear legs --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" If you're adventuresome.................in high school, we ground files down to make knives, then heat treated them. It worked un-believably well. After final shaping, heat it cherry, glowing red, then quench it in melted lard. Be careful, and dunk it quick, or you'll have a fire. Then, carefully, re-heat it till it turns a straw color, and let it cool naturally in the air. Shouldn't be too hard to do it Bob's way and find out what temperature "straw" color is, and it'd be a lot more precise. I know it makes for terrific knife blades, cause I did it. Will I do my own landing gear like that ?? Nope............I'll pay the man, but I agree - $500.00 is out of line. I guess John's still on his trip, but I'm sure he didn't pay that. Lar. Do not Archive. Larry Bourne Palm Springs, CA Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Bean" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: heat treating gear legs > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean > > Sure sounds like bait-n-switch to me. All you need to heat treat is > an electric oven (kitchen model won't do) with an accurate temp > readout. First the item is heated to red hot with out reaching > the droop temp and then rapid quenched. Then stuck in the > electric furnace to reach the applicable temp that actually reduces > the temper to what you want. When I do a cluster I quench with > a wet rag to put a little firmness back in, yup a little guesswork to > judge the mass I'm working with. -Too much, you have a brittle > structure and too little you have a spot that will sag a bit with the > first hard landing. Check with John H's Alabama treater to see > what they want. -BB do not archive > > Joel Reed wrote: > > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Joel Reed" > > > >Hello Kolbers, > > > > I have wanted to make my own landing gear and I got some 4130 tubing and have cut them to length and I wanted to sent them out to get heat treated and I wanted to find out how much it would cost and it seems like its a enpensive process to do the heat treating. I had called Braddock, in New Jersey and the plant manager had gave me a quote of $125 and I thought that was a good deal and send my tubing over to them but the employee who is doing my tubing said it would exceed $500 to do my tubing. I thought that was too much so I thought I would ask the list and find out if that is the normal or is there another place that you know of that would do it for less. > > > >Thanks > > Joel > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:46 AM PST US From: "Guy Morgan" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Ace Hardware aircraft supply --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Guy Morgan" Kolb-List message posted by: "Clay Stuart" Anything wrong with using the hardware store aluminum angle for making custom gas tank and custom seat mounting brackets? I don't plan on painting them. I have cut the neoprene pad into strips that came with my kit for covering the gas tank trays and I am lining the gas tank bracket angles with it. My tanks are 2 aluminum 8 gal tanks for my Xtra. Thanks, Clay Stuart I for one wouldn't do it. Get 2024-T3 aluminum. That hardware store stuff is too soft, especially for structural components like seat and gas tankbrackets. Also, I don't know what area you're from, but I would treat them and at least prime them before installing if you're in a corrosion-prone area. I would do it anyway. But, then again I work in aviation and I'm pretty anal when it comes to this kind of stuff. Spend the extra money and do it right for safety's sake. Guy Morgan, Galveston, TX wanna-be Kolber Wonder if the latest virus has gotten to your computer? Find out. Run the FREE McAfee online computer scan now! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:22 AM PST US From: "bryan green" Subject: Kolb-List: Heat treating --> Kolb-List message posted by: "bryan green" I called Braddock to get a price quote on treating the gear legs for my Firestar I and the said it would be approx. $132.50 for the pair. Bryan Green Elgin SC Firestar I 19LBG 377 BRS ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:56 AM PST US From: "bryan green" Subject: Kolb-List: Fuel tank --> Kolb-List message posted by: "bryan green" Kolbers, I am going to recover my cockpit and would like to install a ten gallon tank at the same time. If you have some links to different options they would be appreciated. Bryan Green Elgin SC Firestar I 19LBG 377 BRS ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:24 AM PST US From: jerb Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Ace Hardware aircraft supply --> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb Would heat treating for general mechanical parts (brackets) be necessary. I think this is far over board for the application. Gee they build Cessna's and Piper's - they just use the proper material size, alloy, and temper, for the application. No special heat treating. I would not use the commercial aluminum you purchase at the local hardware store for any major structural part. It's too soft and easy to deform or tear out when under forces. Your probably looking for 6061-T6 - they use a lot of it on Van Aircraft kits for brackets and so forth. If they can hold together doing aerobatics, I think it should be more than adequate for your application. You can get aluminum from Aircraft Spruce by the foot - or Shapiro Supply, links below. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/mainpage.php http://www.shapirosupply.com/ At 02:32 PM 12/15/03 +0000, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Guy Morgan" > > >Kolb-List message posted by: "Clay Stuart" > > >Anything wrong with using the hardware store >aluminum angle for making custom gas tank and custom seat mounting >brackets? I don't plan on painting them. I have cut the neoprene pad into >strips that came with my kit for covering the gas tank trays and I am >lining the gas tank bracket angles with it. My tanks are 2 aluminum 8 gal >tanks for my Xtra. Thanks, Clay Stuart > > >vspace=9> > > >I for one wouldn't do it. Get 2024-T3 aluminum. That hardware store stuff >is too soft, especially for structural components like seat and gas >tankbrackets. Also, I don't know what area you're from, but I would treat >them and at least prime them before installing if you're in a >corrosion-prone area. I would do it anyway. But, then again I work in >aviation and I'm pretty anal when it comes to this kind of stuff. Spend >the extra money and do it right for safety's sake. > > >Guy Morgan, > > >Galveston, TX wanna-be Kolber > > > Wonder if the latest virus > has gotten to your computer? Find out. Run the FREE McAfee online > computer scan now! > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:28 AM PST US From: Ben Ransom Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Heat treating --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ben Ransom I just got my 4130 legs back from the Braddock plant in Anniston Alabama. Total cost for the pair, including whatever electric surcharge and shipping was $81. If you call Braddock, call the local plant instead of the 800 number. The 800 number is their central office, and it seemed they were less interested in small orders such as this. If you call the Anniston office (local number), the plant manager will probably remember me calling him just last Thursday to politely complain that my gear came back a lot more bent than he predicted (see my previous post). My tone was more to ask what could be done about it rather than to whine, so I would certainly think he'd be open to doing more, so long as you assure him you understand that bending is expected. Per Bob Bean's recommendation, I'm going to see if I can get the more severe bend corrected by nudging it cold in a press. I'm hopeful this will go well as I did the same with previous legs. Hate to say, but I'm getting good at this. :) Due to bending from heat treatment, I recommend you save some hole drilling somewhere to allow for adjustment after getting the legs back. (Expect use of cobalt drill bit and some serious umph to get thru heat treated 4130.) -Ben Ransom --- bryan green wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "bryan green" > > I called Braddock to get a price quote on treating the gear legs for > my Firestar I and the said it would be approx. $132.50 for the pair. > Bryan Green Elgin SC > Firestar I 19LBG 377 BRS > > > > _-> > > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:19:20 AM PST US From: "Larry Bourne" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Ace Hardware aircraft supply --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" Wasn't the heat treating thread regarding landing gear ?? Sure is necessary there. For non-critical parts, (see my web-page on Building Vamoose/Seats & Fuel System) I used Ace aluminum angle for my seat mounts, and after 5 or 6 years of climbing in & out of it, and making vroom vroom noises, they show no sign of de-formation. They're about the only thing on the whole plane that isn't scratched, for alla that. :-) Lar. Larry Bourne Palm Springs, CA Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "jerb" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Ace Hardware aircraft supply > --> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb > > Would heat treating for general mechanical parts (brackets) be > necessary. I think this is far over board for the application. Gee they > build Cessna's and Piper's - they just use the proper material size, alloy, > and temper, for the application. No special heat treating. I would not > use the commercial aluminum you purchase at the local hardware store for > any major structural part. It's too soft and easy to deform or tear out > when under forces. Your probably looking for 6061-T6 - they use a lot of > it on Van Aircraft kits for brackets and so forth. If they can hold > together doing aerobatics, I think it should be more than adequate for your > application. You can get aluminum from Aircraft Spruce by the foot - > or Shapiro Supply, links below. > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/mainpage.php > http://www.shapirosupply.com/ > > At 02:32 PM 12/15/03 +0000, you wrote: > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Guy Morgan" > > > > > >Kolb-List message posted by: "Clay Stuart" > > > > > >Anything wrong with using the hardware store > >aluminum angle for making custom gas tank and custom seat mounting > >brackets? I don't plan on painting them. I have cut the neoprene pad into > >strips that came with my kit for covering the gas tank trays and I am > >lining the gas tank bracket angles with it. My tanks are 2 aluminum 8 gal > >tanks for my Xtra. Thanks, Clay Stuart > > > > > > >vspace=9> > > > > > >I for one wouldn't do it. Get 2024-T3 aluminum. That hardware store stuff > >is too soft, especially for structural components like seat and gas > >tankbrackets. Also, I don't know what area you're from, but I would treat > >them and at least prime them before installing if you're in a > >corrosion-prone area. I would do it anyway. But, then again I work in > >aviation and I'm pretty anal when it comes to this kind of stuff. Spend > >the extra money and do it right for safety's sake. > > > > > >Guy Morgan, > > > > > >Galveston, TX wanna-be Kolber > > > > > > Wonder if the latest virus > > has gotten to your computer? Find out. Run the FREE McAfee online > > computer scan now! > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:21:12 AM PST US From: "Larry Bourne" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: winter projects --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" Yah, the EIS is a dandy toy, and much more efficient................but some of us just love looking at steam gauges. Even in my work (refrigeration) I still prefer analog instruments over digital for many applications. Proves I'm an old F---, I guess. Lar. Do not Archive. Larry Bourne Palm Springs, CA Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "jerb" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: winter projects > --> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb > > Curious, what is it about the EIS you don't like. I love it, have one in > each of our planes. > jerb > do not archive > > snip.. > I'm having a problem fitting all the gauges I feel are necessary in the > space. Any ideas? (note - not a fan of EIS) > snip.... > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:21:20 PM PST US From: "Bob N." Subject: Kolb-List: Straightening --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob N." I have more than once(!) had to straighten 30-36"mower blades that had tried to uproot "hidden" pipes, stumps, and et ceteri. I take them out to arpt maint shop and ease them back, cold, in 20T hyd press. Just bend a little beyond the straightness you want, and they will usually end up OK. Just take it easy. Bob N. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:59 PM PST US From: "Jim Baker" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel tank --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" Try http://www.ronco-plastics.com/ Use the search function to select the tank according to size (gal) constraints. Someone's bound to complain that these are not "aircraft" tanks but are made of the same HDPE material that TNK supplies. Not exactly the cheapest, either, but if you need one in a specific size where else you going to go? > > Kolbers, I am going to recover my cockpit and would like to install a > ten gallon tank at the same time. If you have some links to different > options they would be appreciated. Bryan Green Elgin SC Firestar I > 19LBG 377 BRS > > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. > http://www.matronics.com/chat > ==== > > > > J.Baker ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:29 PM PST US From: "Guy Morgan" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Ace Hardware aircraft supply --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Guy Morgan" Sorry guys. By "treat" I meant etch and Alodyne before you paint 'em, not heat treat. Guy Morgan Galveston, TX wanna-be Kolber do not archive Wasn't the heat treating thread regarding landing gear ?? Sure is necessary there. For non-critical parts, (see my web-page on Building Vamoose/Seats Fuel System) I used Ace aluminum angle for my seat mounts, and after 5 or 6 years of climbing in out of it, and making vroom vroom noises, they show no sign of de-formation. They're about the only thing on the whole plane that isn't scratched, for alla that. :-) Lar. Larry Bourne Palm Springs, CA Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB www.gogittum.com Would heat treating for general mechanical parts (brackets) be necessary. I think this is far over board for the application. Gee they build Cessna's and Piper's - they just use the proper material size, alloy, and temper, for the application. No special heat treating. I would not use the commercial aluminum you purchase at the local hardware store for any major structural part. It's too soft and easy to deform or tear out when under forces. Your probably looking for 6061-T6 - they use a lot of it on Van Aircraft kits for brackets and so forth. If they can hold together doing aerobatics, I think it should be more than adequate for your application. Winterize your home with tips from MSN House & Home. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:27 PM PST US From: "ronnie wehba" Subject: Kolb-List: who owns --> Kolb-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" the ultrastar with the yellow/white tail,black fairing, converted to a center stick?, reply off list thanks. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:05 PM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel tank --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums At 03:43 PM 12/15/2003, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" > >Try > >http://www.ronco-plastics.com/ > >Use the search function to select the tank according to size (gal) >constraints. Someone's bound to complain that these are not >"aircraft" tanks but are made of the same HDPE material that TNK >supplies. Not exactly the cheapest, either, but if you need one in a >specific size where else you going to go? That's what I've got in mine. The "spin molded" tanks don't have any seams and the fittings are spun-on at the factory. The walls are about 1/8 + inch thick and plenty strong. The main attraction is that you can see you gas. http://www.mindspring.com/~possums/Modfowdframe.jpg ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:52 PM PST US From: "Mike Pierzina" Subject: Kolb-List: Jack's Project --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Mike Pierzina" Hey Jack, I like the way your project is turning out... I'll have to check it out myself later... But I don't like the JB weld. I think screws could be slightly counter sunk ( or a safety wire ) and a high temp silicone could be used to seal the area below. Glad to hear from you, Gotta Fly... Mike in MN -FSII Painting Trim Colors Do Not Archive SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>> I have re-worked the Bing carburetor dribble bib to make it lighter and to reduce the chance of anything being sucked into the engine. The latest update can be seen on the bottom of: http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly90.html This is a long html with many photos, so it will take a while to load. Jack B. Hart FF004 Jackson, MO Free Poetry Contest. Win $10,000. Submit your poem @ Poetry.com! http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;6750922;3807821;l?http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A59101 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:31 PM PST US From: "Russell Phillips" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: winter projects --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Russell Phillips" Thanks everyone for all the ideas. The extended panel looks like a good option. The dunebuggy website gastank looks like a real good possibility and the price is right. I think Lar has my number. My work involves steam gauges, also heating and cooling. And I suppose I"m to the stage where I could be considered an old F---. I think that is the main reason I lean towards analog gauges, although I have seen on the list in the past a few times when EIS caused a real headache for some. (could be isolated problems) Russ do not archive -- Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" Yah, the EIS is a dandy toy, and much more efficient................but some of us just love looking at steam gauges.Even in my work (refrigeration) I still prefer analog instruments over digital for many applications.Proves I'm an old F---, I guess.Lar. Do not Archive. From: "jerb" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: winter projects -- Kolb-List message posted by: jerb Curious, what is it about the EIS you don't like.I love it, have one in each of our planes. jerb do not archive Shop online for kids toys by age group, price range, and toy category at MSN Shopping. No waiting for a clerk to help you!