---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/23/03: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:03 AM - slingshot (Ted Cowan) 2. 06:29 AM - RedGreen lives! (artdog1512) 3. 07:00 AM - Re: slingshot (Earl & Mim Zimmerman) 4. 07:03 AM - Re: slingshot (ul15rhb@juno.com) 5. 07:14 AM - Re: 582 @ 5200 rpm's (Richard Pike) 6. 11:39 AM - Re: carbon buildup (Don Gherardini) 7. 12:15 PM - Re: heat treating (Ben Ransom) 8. 12:17 PM - Grinch Ate My Computer (jhauck@elmore.rr.com) 9. 12:51 PM - 2 cycle oil (Paul Petty) 10. 01:17 PM - Re: Grinch Ate My Computer (Terry) 11. 02:21 PM - Re: 2 cycle oil (Don Gherardini) 12. 03:10 PM - Intermittent Internet Connectivity Issues to Matronics... (Matt Dralle) 13. 05:38 PM - Re: 582 @ 5200 rpm's (Thom Riddle) 14. 06:00 PM - Re: carbon buildup (Eugene Zimmerman) 15. 06:23 PM - Re: Re: heat treating (John Hauck) 16. 07:07 PM - Seafoam (possums) 17. 08:18 PM - Re: Seafoam (Larry Bourne) 18. 08:24 PM - Re: Seafoam (Bob N.) 19. 08:42 PM - Re: oil gage (GeoR38@aol.com) 20. 09:09 PM - Yoopers (possums) 21. 10:22 PM - Re: Re: 582 @ 5200 rpm's (Don Gherardini) 22. 10:27 PM - Re: carbon buildup (Don Gherardini) 23. 10:48 PM - Re: Re: 582 @ 5200 rpm's (Richard Pike) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:17 AM PST US From: Ted Cowan Subject: Kolb-List: slingshot --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ted Cowan Been watching and lurking on the list and now I have a few observations and comments. Firstly, I set up my slingshot the way the factory specified, using the (almost) 3 inch risers on the engine to clear the wing fold mechanism and such. Well, at take off, it was almost more than I could overcome on the roll out. The nose would take a drastic drop and a realy heavy elevator was the action of the day. Well, copying another slingshot, I noticed that there was a 5/8" difference in the rear of the mount to the front, i.e., the front was tilted down to more closely match the prop to the boom attitude during flight. Well, after many trials and errors, I got it around 3/4" difference and took all the strain out of take-off. The engine being elevated so high was thought by the factory to present a possible problem on aborting a landing but with my configuration, there seems to be no problem now, a very light stick. Well, the added benefits were that the fuel consumption went way down and the ability to climb went way up. Now gets a nice 1200 fpm climb out quite regularily. I am a little heavy, 500 lbs dry but I have tried up to 150 lbs in back seat with just a little extra run way needed to obtain speed and I think adding some air to the tires would take care of that. Now to get to the point I was heading for. I started out getting about five and a half gals of gas per hour burn at around 5600 rpm. (cruise 75 to 80) Now, I get a respectable 70-72 mph at around 5100 rpm and at 5600 rpm I am closer to 85 or more mph. I found that around 5900 rpm I am getting close to 95 and had it up to a hundred at 6000 but did not do it long enough to obtain a WOT speed. I kind of chickened out at a hundred mph. The best thing is I now am getting around three and a third gal per hour burn at the 70 mph speed, four gals per hour at the 80 and then it goes up to about five gals an hour if I really push it up. Havent tested that one yet. My egts are running around 1080 to 1140 highest and my chts are around the 260 mark constantly and my water temps stay down to about 160 on the hard push. My inquiry is whether or not a 582 could or should sustain the low rpms of 5200 and verying to 5600 occasionally without damaging the engine with carbon or anything. I would love to continue flying at 75 mph at around 5250 rpms and get the 21 mpg consumption. whats the take on these figures. Guys, gotta remember, I am only pushing 22 foot of wing and 700 lbs with me in it so it aint no locomotive like the Mk II. by the way, the baby purrrrrs at around 5200. likes it there. I have been told that ast that low rpm, it will build large quanties of carbon under the pistons and take out the crank. ted cowan, alabama ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:30 AM PST US From: artdog1512 Subject: Kolb-List: RedGreen lives! --> Kolb-List message posted by: artdog1512 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:50:48 PM PST US From: John Hauck Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flew on skiis today. --> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck > OK OK Dose disc brakes on dose skis don't work well but > dem holes in da floor for da feet work great! Scott Trask > U.P.er P.S best ideas Red Green show i watch RedGreen every week! never miss an episode! there's much wisdom in that program. every ultralighter should watch..... tim do not archive __________________________________ http://companion.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:28 AM PST US From: Earl & Mim Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: slingshot --> Kolb-List message posted by: Earl & Mim Zimmerman > by the way, the baby purrrrrs at around 5200. likes it there. I have been > told that ast that low rpm, it will build large quanties of carbon under the > pistons and take out the crank. ted cowan, alabama Ted we have a 582 on a MKII and most of it's 500+ hrs. are between 4200-5000 rpm. We have the prop. pitched for about 6000 max. rpm (peak torque) and an efficient cruise. We have never done any thing to this engine except change spark plugs. Oh yes we did take the oil injection off when we got it. I don't know if that would have any effect or not. FWIW -- Earl ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: slingshot From: ul15rhb@juno.com --> Kolb-List message posted by: ul15rhb@juno.com -- Ted Cowan wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ted Cowan I have been told that ast that low rpm, it will build large quanties of carbon under the pistons and take out the crank. ted cowan, alabama Ted, I know the 447 does just fine at 5100 all the time in cruise. To keep the carbon buildup down, use synthetic oil like Klotz KL-216 or other Klotz synthetic 2-stroke oils. They don't produce carbon like Pennzoil and other mineral oils (don't want to start a flame war, but it's true). As you well know, I give mine the Seafoam treatments every 25 hours or so. My cylinders are very clean and look like brand new in there. I'm saving on engine wear, it has well over 400 hours on it. I don't plan to do an overhaul for another 200 hours. This is what synthetics will do for you. Ralph Original Firestar 17 years flying it ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:03 AM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Kolb-List: Re: 582 @ 5200 rpm's --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike Not enough time on my 582 yet to have an opinion, but I ran my 532 for about 250 hours at 5000-5400 rpm's solo, and around 56-5700 RPM's two up with no carbon problems, was using Phillips Injex. I tried to keep the EGT's around 1150 to 1175. I think that carbon build up is more a function of EGT temperature, lead in the gas, and the type of oil than it is RPM's. And I agree, 5200 RPM is a smooth ride. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) do not archive At 08:04 AM 12/23/03 -0600, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Ted Cowan > > >My inquiry is whether or not a 582 could or >should sustain the low rpms of 5200 and verying to 5600 occasionally without >damaging the engine with carbon or anything. I would love to continue >flying at 75 mph at around 5250 rpms and get the 21 mpg consumption. whats >the take on these figures. Guys, gotta remember, I am only pushing 22 foot >of wing and 700 lbs with me in it so it aint no locomotive like the Mk II. >by the way, the baby purrrrrs at around 5200. likes it there. I have been >told that ast that low rpm, it will build large quanties of carbon under the >pistons and take out the crank. ted cowan, alabama ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:39:56 AM PST US From: "Don Gherardini" Subject: Re: Kolb-List:carbon buildup --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" Ted, ON the subject of carbon buildup..let me share with you and the troops here the results of alot of ongoing and extensive testing we do around here. And we strive to get our engines to go for thousands of hours...not hundreds. 1st, carbon buildup...vs. temps. These are related, but not in the areas that some might think. The largest contributor to excess carbon build up is the residual materials left over after the fuel mixture is burned. Lets call it the ashes for a visual model. Alot of different things are in this "carbon" as we call it...a large quantity is basically "dirt". This comes into the mixture from many avenues. It can come from the fuel..the gas can..thru the air filter...and of course from the oil. Usually the second highest source is the oil, so we will concentrate on this. Now petroleum based lubes are Hydrocarbons, so obviously we have a carbon content to deal with.but the carbon we deal with here is more a subject of the residue left after the burn...some call it "unburned residue"...but that term does not work well here because of what really is going on in the combustion chamber. Since the combustion process here is related to a time factor...lets try and breakdown that first. On a basic level which will suffice for this discussion, lets just say that the gasoline burns first..and the oil second. We wont go into flame front speeds and different rates at different compression ratios, burn rates at temp different levels and so on..because generally the gasoline still burns first. OH ya..Since Ralph mentioned synthetics..I better say quickly that we are only talking about petro-based oils here!..Ill get to synthetics later. OK..it is pretty easy to understand that if a low quality high ash content oil is used we are likely to have alot of "carbon" left after the mix is burned and if it doesnt exit the cyl somehow..it will buildup and cause probs. The KEY word in the above sentence is EXIT! We really dont care about how many ashes are left over from the burn if we can get rid of em right?.... Herein lies the the secret to a long life 2 stroke men! Now..where does temp relate?...Well many of you have seen the sides of a piston "painted"with a brownish varnish looking substance.This is an indication that there is an excess in the amount of oil in the mixture and the engine is not burning it and I assure you, it is the begining of a failure. The failure will come as a result of the degraded skirt/cyl wall clearance. As this varnish builds.. we have less oil film on the cyl wall and pretty soon...we are going to fail..this could come from a rapid cooling...from a long haul and high heat building up...cold starts and high loads....lots of failures are blamed on these happenings but in reality..it was just to lack of clearance at the moment.. This condition can be induced from a fella thinking that "More is better" and mixes his oil at a higher the recommended ratio. (Most common cause), or a over rich condition on the fuel air ratio.("I'm gonna keep my engine cool"), or a malfunction in an oil injection system...lots of ways. How this relates to carbon buildup is actually a secondary reason for failure. Visually, picture in slow motion the combustion process. The spark ignites the mixture and the flame front travels across the chamber. When it gets done there is unburned oil...not the ashes...but plain liquid oil left on the top of the piston that didnt burn because there was too much of it to burn up in the time available.(remember the gas burns faster than the oil) A portion of what is left is exhausted, and as it goes out thru the port it coats the sides of the port with a oil film also. Now...as the cylinder wall, block, piston all continue to heat up the volatiles in this oil film all evaporate and it gets thicker..and eventually ends up as the varnish you see on the piston skirt..it attracts the "dirts and ashes" left over from what does burn and we see the result as a buildup of black carbon like stuff on the top of the piston and the sides of the exhaust port and in the worst cases...in the lands between the rings or the piston wall above the ring. We usually dont see this carbon buildup on the skirt below the rings because the rings kept the dirt above this point.When we do see this carbon below the rings...well it is because we are examining a failed engine! When the Dirt gets below the rings...failure comes very fast. So...in summary of the root of a carbon buildup...its the "dirt and ashes" left over from the burn stuck to the oil film that didnt burn that gets cooked into that abrasive enemy of engine durability. Prevention?....Whew...Examine all the possible sources...dirty air..dirty fuel..high ash oils....heavy oil ratio...over rich fuel/air mixture. Also, particularly on an engine run at a high load and constant rpm.(like cruise on an airplane...or peak load on a generator), operating the engine at the rpm level of peak volumetric efficiency. This will be at an rpm level closer to the peak torque...NOT the peak horsepower. This level helps the exit of all that "dirt and ashes" that we dont want sticking around in there. Also of course...cyl head temp.... "WHAT???.."You mean EGT dont you?".....nope fellas...I mean CHT. What we really need to see here is PDT (piston dome temp)..but we dont have access to that, so CHT is the closest we can come. Without some very extensive information...your EGT only tells you how much heat is LEAVING your engine....not how much is retained. Without an EGT prob placed at 1/2 inch intervals starting inside the exhaust port, and spaced all in a row clear out to the muffler joint will you ever get enough quantitive temp data to help you. UNfortunatly, the point of peak temp of the exhaust gas changes in distance from the cylinder skirt with rpms, and manifold vacuum (read that as load), so when you see your EGT dropping...it likely means the hottest point of the burn is just somewhere else in the pipe than your EGT probe is. Any of you ever notice that sometimes in certain conditions the EGT drops and the CHT goes up? ...That is why. Anybody ever wonder why some engines have lower recommended Max EGTs than others? EGT probe placement is why. Not fuel/air mixtures. Anybody ever change mufflers or pipes but retain the same manifold pipe or EGT probe placement and see a drastic difference in the EGT readings? SAme reasons men...we have simply changed the distance of the hottest point in the Exhaust gas. EGT is an important factor in tuning your engine...but it is much more complicated than one might think. OK back to CHT then. Now of course...as some have suggested..running at too low a CHT temp can contribute to carbon buildup..due actually to even less of the oil in the mixture being burned completely and giving it a better chance of building up into so heavy a coating that the "varnish" buildup really becomes a problem. Varible factors include, relationship of CHT to PDT....closest on aircooled engines....farthest on Liquid cooled. Cast iron cyls vs Nikasil coated cyls. Higher silicone content in piston alloys ... and of course the general cooling efficiency on any particular engine. However still..It can be *generally* said, running an engine too cool will contribute to carbon buildup. If we had the ability to modify the fuel/oil ratio in flight...if we had the ability to modify the Fuel/air ratio in flight, we could overcome this factor. If the ratios are set for optimum at a lower rpm level...it would be different, and we could run em cooler...but then we would be in danger at higher rpms and heavier loads. So that is why I said..*generally*. Ralph mentioned that synthetics dont buildup carbon as much as some other brands of non-synthetics do. I assure you, this is true. Not because the synthetics lubricate better necessarliy,.. although they have synthetic lubes that can make an elephant slip on sandpaper... These companies have ettempted to get the lubricants flash point closer to that of gasoline and duplicate the burn rates, so we have a more complete and even burn of the fuel mixture and nothing is left behind. Therein lies their advantages, not how slipperey they are...for that really is not an issue as long as the alum piston does not touch the cyl wall...and the clearance is maintained by what ever medium is there..nothing can be gained. Well men..got kinda long winded again...it is a slow day at the office...My sec....err.. I mean administrative assistant is hollering at me and the eggnog is begining to be served downstairs...Looks like I'm going to be able to quit thinking of infernal combustion engines for awhile and enjoy a few holidays with time off!!!! Happy Holidays, and to all of you in better climates suitable for commit'n aviation...Blue Skies! Don Gherardini Sales / Engineering dept. American Honda Engines Power Equipment Company CortLand, Illinois 800-626-7326 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:15:04 PM PST US From: Ben Ransom Subject: Kolb-List: Re: heat treating --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ben Ransom Joel, I finally got around to straightening the leg that came back bent from heat treating. I talked to the machinist in the shop I have access to, and he really thought I was going overboard to try straightening instead of just making one leg shorter, or whatever, to achieve level stance on the ground. But, we felt like screwing around with it just for kicks. It is amazing how much deflection (and force) this leg will take. Thanks also Bob Bean, for your advice! Here's details and a photo. http://mae.ucdavis.edu/ransom/BensAlbum/build/rlegstraight.html Happy Holidays!! -Ben ===== http://mae.ucdavis.edu/~ransom __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:17:55 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Grinch Ate My Computer From: jhauck@elmore.rr.com --> Kolb-List message posted by: jhauck@elmore.rr.com -------------------------------------------------- Here is a message for you from http://web2mail.com The easy way to read and send POP email on the web -------------------------------------------------- Hello All: If I do not respond to your messages, please forgive me. The Xmas Grinch ate my primary and alternate hard drives. Well, the truth is, I was using a Ghost Image from my back up to the newly formated C Drive, got the damn sequence backwards and Ghosted the backup, which promptly cleaned it off in the same formatted manner as the C drive. My son is going to try and work some magic to recover my 6 years of data. I may have to send it to one of those specialist to try and recover it, if it doesn't cost an arm and a leg. I do have some stuff backed up on CDs, but not all of it. My fault, didn't measure three times before I cut. hehehe Merry Xmas and Happy New Year, john h hauck's holler, alabama PS: This is being sent from Nell's computer in town. I am heading for Mobile tomorrow and should be back up with RR and email by the time I get back this weekend. The trials of modern life. :-) DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:47 PM PST US From: "Paul Petty" Subject: Kolb-List: 2 cycle oil RCVD_IN_DYNABLOCK 2.60, RCVD_IN_SORBS 0.10) --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" Don/Kolbers, A very long time ago I rode a little 80cc Yamaha dirt bike. The motorcycle starting getting weaker and weaker until it finally would not start. After taking it in for service, the mechanic ask me "What kinda oil are you running in this bike?" I replied 2 cycle oil. He said"what brand" I replied well for the past few months its been Johnson outboard oil because my daddy has cases of it. He explained to me that outboards run at constant rpms and constant loads. And motorcycles are constantly changing rpms and loads and they required different oils. What had happened to my bike was the carbon had stopped the exhaust port completely up. All he had to do was clean it out and full power was restored. I was like 10 yrs old at the time and what he said made sense, but I have never totally understood the concept. Anyone care to explain? Don maybe? While were sharing long stories in the chill of winter here's one for the 2 strokers. When I was 12yrs old, I had a little hydroplane that I raced at the local lake in east Texas. Upon losing to a smaller kid I decided to juice up my fuel with a healthy dose of lacquer thinner. Made 1 1/2 laps before I locked up a brand new 12.5hp Johnson outboard!!!! Dad was not a happy camper really let me have it. I replied "But dad, I was winning!!!" take care pp do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:36 PM PST US From: Terry Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Grinch Ate My Computer --> Kolb-List message posted by: Terry jhauck@elmore.rr.com wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: jhauck@elmore.rr.com > > -------------------------------------------------- > Here is a message for you from http://web2mail.com > The easy way to read and send POP email on the web > -------------------------------------------------- > > Hello All: > > If I do not respond to your messages, please forgive me. > > The Xmas Grinch ate my primary and alternate hard drives. Well, the truth is, I was using a Ghost Image from my back up to the newly formated C Drive, got the damn sequence backwards and Ghosted the backup, which promptly cleaned it off in the same formatted manner as the C drive. My son is going to try and work some magic to recover my 6 years of data. I may have to send it to one of those specialist to try and recover it, if it doesn't cost an arm and a leg. I do have some stuff backed up on CDs, but not all of it. My fault, didn't measure three times before I cut. hehehe > > Merry Xmas and Happy New Year, > > john h > hauck's holler, alabama > > PS: This is being sent from Nell's computer in town. I am heading for Mobile tomorrow and should be back up with RR and email by the time I get back this weekend. The trials of modern life. :-) > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > John, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and Nell! Hope your holidays are good and you get some air time. Terry - FireFly ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:11 PM PST US From: "Don Gherardini" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 cycle oil --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" Paul, Well, I dunno ...that mechanic was certainly correct in that using liquid cooled mix in an aircooled engine is not right..but not for carbon build up usually. More likely..it was due to the engine running to rich in either carb adjust...or oil mixture...or poor airfiltration. Eggnog is about gone men...and if I can see straight..I'm going home! Don Gherardini Sales / Engineering dept. American Honda Engines Power Equipment Company CortLand, Illinois 800-626-7326 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:39 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kolb-List: Intermittent Internet Connectivity Issues to Matronics... --> Kolb-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, Starting at about 1:05pm PDT Matronics starting having intermittent connectivity issues to the Internet. I've called the ISP and they are looking into the problem and may do intrusive testing on the line at some point this afternoon/evening. For the most part, things seem to be working right now, but the line will drop out every once in a while for 2 to 3 minutes. This problem will effect connections to the Matronics Web server as well as distribution of List mail. I will post a follow up when the problem has been resolved... Hopefully later today. Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Admin. Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:44 PM PST US From: "Thom Riddle" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: 582 @ 5200 rpm's --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" Don, Thanks for the wonderful education! I learned more there than from reading everything available from the CPS catalog. A couple things you said though did not quite get through my old thick skull. I'm particularly interested in learning more about Nikasil vs. Cast Iron cylinders. Which is preferable and why. If you can take the time to explain this I, for one, would really appreciate this. Thom in Buffalo do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:24 PM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List:carbon buildup --> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman Don Gherardini wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" > > Ted, > ON the subject of carbon buildup.. snip snip Ok Don, You informed us real good on everything except the Seafoam clean up. Are there real chemical decarbon products. If so what is the active active ingredient and what does it do to seals and gaskets? ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:19 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: heat treating --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > I finally got around to straightening the leg that came back bent from > heat treating. > -Ben Hi Ben/All: Glad it worked out for you. If you had some normalized 4130 in the same size you could do a little experiment on how stiff it is and how little it takes to put a permanent bend into it, compared the the greater flexibility of the heat treated 4130. I have a couple gear legs that need some tweeking to get the back to near straight once again. How did you make out drilling the legs after heat treatment? After the gear leg/axle socket failure a couple years ago, I have gone to what Brother Jim recommended way back in 1991 when we were fabricating the steel stuff. Weld the axle socket to the gear leg, align, then send them off for heat treating. I don't want to go through the Muncho Lake problem again. A little more difficult to get things straight, but much more durable. I got the ole computer back up on an early version of Win98 to read my mail at home tonight. I'll drop it off with my Son tomorrow on the way to Mobile. Hopefully, I can get my email files, addresses, bookmarks, and a few other things back from my cleaned off hard drive. If I can't, then I will start all over again. Merry Xmas and Happy New Year, john h ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:45 PM PST US From: possums Subject: Kolb-List: Seafoam --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums At 08:59 PM 12/23/2003, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman > > >Ok Don, > You informed us real good on everything except the Seafoam clean up. >Are there real chemical decarbon products. If so what is the active >active ingredient and what does it do to seals and gaskets? Seafoan? What's seafoam??? ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:25 PM PST US From: "Larry Bourne" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Seafoam --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" Oh, you sooooo baaaaaddd ! ! ! Have you no mercy ?? Lar. Do not Archive. Happy Holidays, everyone.............even Possum. :-) Larry Bourne Palm Springs, CA Kolb Mk III - Vamoose N78LB www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "possums" Subject: Kolb-List: Seafoam > --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums > > At 08:59 PM 12/23/2003, you wrote: > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman > > > > > >Ok Don, > > You informed us real good on everything except the Seafoam clean up. > >Are there real chemical decarbon products. If so what is the active > >active ingredient and what does it do to seals and gaskets? > > Seafoan? What's seafoam??? > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:24:32 PM PST US From: "Bob N." Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Seafoam --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob N." Awww geez...we ain't gonna start The Interminable Seafoam Thread again! The archives surely oughta be full of Seafoam--from more than three years ago. Or maybe that was on FLY-UL? Bob N. do not archive ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:33 PM PST US From: GeoR38@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: oil gage --> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com A problem with losing ground on an electric pressure or temp gauge usually gives an indication of full needle swing to the highest indication. Take care, john h sounds like you have an overload when you switch on the light......do you have a regulator? Its job is to compensate for load changes within limits George Randolph Firestar driver from The Villages Fl ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:32 PM PST US From: possums Subject: Kolb-List: Yoopers --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums At 06:50 PM 12/22/2003, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Hauck > >Rookie Yooper (A couple more flights to Scott's, and I may >qualify as a full fledged Yooper with eligibility to join >the Possum Lodge and get an autograph from Red Green) > >DO NOT ARCHIVE Yoopers are kind of an odd mixture of people. Watching them in an objective sort of way they remind me of "The Red Green Show," "Northern Exposure," and a strange and bewildering twist of world cultures, but they are some of the nicest people you'd ever like to meet, and they are unlike any other people anywhere else in the world. The term "Yooper" is slang for a person who lives in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, or the "U.P." (the area north of Wisconsin and Lake Michigan). Those who live in the Lower Peninsula are called "Trolls," because they live below the bridge (Mackinac Bridge that connects the U.P. to the rest of the state). During Deer Hunting Season, the Trolls are also called "Apple Knockers" because it is generally believed that they couldn't hit the broadside of a barn if it had a huge red target painted on it, and rather than actually hitting deer, they just knock the apples off the trees. Yooper Temperature Conversion Chart 50 above - New Yorkers try to turn on the heat - Yoopers plant gardens 40 above - Californians shiver uncontrollably - Yoopers sunbathe 35 above - Italian cars won't start - Yoopers drive with the windows down 32 above - Distilled water freezes - Lake Superior water gets thicker 20 above - Floridians wear coats, gloves, hats - Yoopers throw on a T- shirt, maybe 15 above - Californians begin to evacuate the state - Yoopers go swimming 0 - NY landlords turn on the heat - Yoopers have the last cook out before it gets cold 10 below - People in Miami cease to exist - Yoopers lick the flagpole 20 below - Californians fly away to Mexico - Yoopers throw on a light jacket 40 below - Hollywood disintegrates - Yoopers rent some videos 60 below - Mt. St. Helens freezes - U.P. Girl Scouts begin selling cookies door-to-door 80 below - Polar bears evacuate Antarctica - U.P. Boy Scouts postpone "Winter Survival" 100 below - Santa Claus abandons the North Pole - Yoopers pull down their earflaps 173 below - Ethyl alcohol freezes - Yoopers get frustrated when they can't thaw the keg 297 below - Microbial life survives on dairy products - U.P. cows complain of farmers with cold hands 460 below - ALL atomic motion stops - Yoopers start saying... "Cold 'nuff for ya?" 500 below - Hell freezes over - The Detroit Lions win the Super Bowl A down-stater was sitting at the bar in Republic and asked the bartender if he would like to hear a Yooper joke. The bartender leaned over and said, "Do you see that guy in the corner? He is the local sheriff, and he is a Yooper. The man at end of the bar works for the DNR and he is a Yooper. And buddy, I myself am of Yooperish descent. Now, are you sure you still want to tell a Yooperlander joke?" The down-stater replied, "No, not if I have to explain it three times!" ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:12 PM PST US From: "Don Gherardini" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 582 @ 5200 rpm's --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" Tom/ and the gang, Whew...I hope this isnt to boreing for all the other fellas on this list. I guess if it is...like it has been said, you dont have to read what you dont want to. Nickle-silicon cyl coatings. in a previous life...of maybe I should say at a previous employer...I was on a design team working on a 2 cyle chain saw engine. jeez..I hate to think that it was so many years ago..but..early 80s... We were trying to bust what generally in the industry we called the 10,000 rpm barrier. we could easily get a engine over those rpms..but we could not meet the design requirements for engine life span. You see the smaller the bore..the tighter the skirt clearance needed for piston stability..(rocking)..and when we lowered the clearances..we just could not keep the piston cool enough. we needed some way to get better heat transfer from the piston to the cylinder wall...we tried all kinds of crazy things...different steels in the cylinder..different finishs, different chromes...when we would get a good heat transfer...the cyl wall material was never porus enough to hold the oil film ,,or the expansion rate was too far off to keep the tight clearance....we couldnt increase the clearances because then we had piston slap at the high rpms..so lots of different oils that would (supposedly) transfer heat better..teflon coatings and other magic stuff like that...nothing worked. We were really chasing our tail. Then one day a salesman from the company that supplied us with cylinders (from Germany...we were in Sweden) came thru with a new stuff they were coating cylinders with..Nikasil he called it. This coating was very thin although very durable he claimed, and porus enough to hold a good oil film at the then unheard of .003 clearance we were needing. I should mention here this was a 100 cc engine...so the bore was quite a bit smaller than what we usually deal with in our little airplane engines. Well..we didnt like the idea at first., because number one it was so thin we didnt believe it could last the 1000 hours that was the target...and secondly..it would prevent the overhaul of a cylinder buy the common method of boring and installing an oversize piston.So the frugal swedes said no..we will figger out a way.. Then..that other chainsaw company in germany started using them, and they seemed successful. So it was deemed we better give them a try. At first on just one model..and we will see if the market will buy a saw that you cant overhaul without purchasing new jugs and pistons everytime. Well the saw worked real well..lasted longer than the target lifespan in testing, and the market resistance was not as bad as anticipated...so within a year or so, all of the Pro-models were equipped with these cylinders from Mahle...then some from an Italian company called Guilardoni as they were developing a similiar process. In the begining, the coatings were ok as long as no dirt was injested thru the intake...but as soon as they got one whiff of dirt...the coatings were gone. After a couple of years the cylinder companies had developed a harder more durable mixture, and these problems were reduced. Anyway, this was an exciting time for me.As a young American engineer, I couldnt get enough rpms out of anything got my hands on and now we were putting out production saws that ran from 12,500 for a 100cc model to 16,000 rpms for a 42 cc saw...VAROOOM!!!!! OK..now Mr. Riddle, how does this apply to our current passions...2 cycle airplane engines??? Well, Not being involved with 2 cycle development anymore I am a little behind, but here is what I think..not what I know..just what I think! Now we dont need for our engines to run at 10K rpms. But we do need the best heat transfer/cooling ability we can get because we run these engines at 80 to 100% duty cycle..and the more heat we can pull out of that piston, the more power we can get from our engine because the hotter we can run that combustion. As previously mentioned...a Nikasil cylinder cannot be bored out without recoating..and no USA company is doing these coatings to my knowledge due to the EPA regulations the apply to the process..so if you get a single stripe down the cylinder wall...its a new jug... The resistance to dirt injestion is better than it was in the begining..but still a long way from a cast iron or steel cyl liner., so it cannot be judged as durable as a "conventional" cylinder. Cost a helluva lot for a manufacturer to buy these jugs...and the end user. However.....The heat transfer qualities are second to none at the level of technology today for a material that is porus enough for an oil film to adhere to. Hard cast aluminum alloys can be used for cylinders instead of a steel liner and coated...reducing the overall weight...bringing expansion rates of piston and cylinder very close together, which is a very good thing. Allowing an engine to be designed with tighter skirt/wall clearances..less ring tension...(which is less parasitic load and less bore wear) And Yes, I have seen that engine company make those claims about invunerability to Shock Cooling....And I believe that its probably true due to this combination of pistons and cylinders, Although I have no direct expierience with them. Durability is relative...some people will use these engines no more than 25 hours a year, and 200 or 300 hours is probably enough life for those users...As I have observed in this industry for some time...the great majority of 2 stroke Rotax engines out there never last more than a couple of hundred hours, and an awful lot of people still buy them for their birds. All you have to do is start looking at used airplanes...I will venture to say that 7 out of 10 ads say something like this..."TTAF 300 hrs. new 503",,,, or "TTAF 275 hrs...newly overhauled Rotax *** with just 30 hours." Now no matter what you read into this..I see that there are more Rotaxs on used birds than any other brand...and most of them dont go 300 hours. It has become acceptable to the market. Also...an aircraft engine operates in generally a clean air enviroment for the bulk of its time...so by nature they are less prone to prolonged dirt injestion. Many high performance engine applications have begun to use Nikasil coated cylinders..including auto racing..I have no doubt it is because they can simply get the heat out of the piston better..and therfore run a hotter fuel..or a higher BMEP...(Brake mean effective pressure)..(basically just more power). So Thom, as with everything...there are compromises. I certainly cant say that a Nikasil coated cyl is better than a cast iron or steel cyl, they are different...and for some people...they are probably better..for some..they are not...I hope I have explained what differences I am aware of correctly. Don Gherardini FireFly 098 http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:50 PM PST US From: "Don Gherardini" Subject: Re: Kolb-List:carbon buildup --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" Zim.... Seafoam.... I have never used it...dont know how it works....cant say a thing here as I am completey ignorant on the subject. Doubt if I ever will because when I have an engine that needs something done to it..I cant wait to tear it down and fix whatever it needs..look inside it and see why...I just like wrenchs I reckon.....! Don Gherardini FireFly 098 http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:19 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 582 @ 5200 rpm's --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike Boring, are you kidding? This is the most interesting thing in weeks. So now let me throw you a politically charged question - why does a Rotax 2-cycle have a TBO of 300-400 hours, and a Rotax 4-cycle have a TBO of 1,000 hours? Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) do not archive At 12:27 AM 12/24/03 -0600, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" > >Tom/ and the gang, > >Whew...I hope this isnt to boreing for all the other fellas on this list. I >guess if it is...like it has been said, you dont have to read what you dont >want to. >Don Gherardini >FireFly 098 >http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm