Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:54 PM - Re: Prop tips (jerb)
2. 03:28 PM - Prop tips (Terry)
3. 04:35 PM - Re: Prop tips and IVOs (John Hauck)
4. 05:49 PM - Polycarbonate (Bill Vincent)
5. 06:27 PM - Mark III switch layout (Joel Reed)
6. 06:28 PM - Re: Prop tips and IVOs (Eugene Zimmerman)
7. 06:37 PM - Re: Polycarbonate (Don Gherardini)
8. 07:11 PM - Re: Mark III switch layout (Duncan McBride)
9. 07:11 PM - Re: Prop tips (Richard Pike)
10. 07:15 PM - Re: Prop tips and IVOs (ul15rhb@juno.com)
11. 07:18 PM - Alabama Temperatures (The Kuffels)
12. 08:09 PM - Re: Mark III switch layout (Richard Pike)
13. 08:44 PM - Re: Polycarbonate (Bob Bean)
14. 09:47 PM - Re: Mark III switch layout (Denny Rowe)
15. 09:59 PM - Re: Mark III switch layout (Denny Rowe)
Message 1
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
Any explanation as to why? I sure I've heard of them telling people to cut
off a little of the tip to make minor adjustments for clearance, RPM
and/or loading.
jerb
At 07:00 PM 1/6/04 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride@comcast.net>
>
>I just wrote to IVO about reshaping the tips and they recommended against
>it.
>
>Their reply:
> >Dear Duncan,
> >We do not want you to alter the prop. Ivo has found our tip to be as quiet
> >or quieter,
> >as efficient or more efficient than all the other tips. He has tried them
> >all on the Ivoprop.
> >Inside there is fiberglass rope that starts at the tip and goes around the
> >bolt hole and back to the tip,
> >same on leading and trailing edge. If you alter you will jeopardize the
> >structural integrity.
> >Regards, Ron
>
>Ron sent a follow-up that said one reason the IVOPROPS were quieter was due
>to their flexibility. If the fiberglas rope doesn't extend all the way to
>both the leading and trailing edges, the problem might be delamination where
>the tip is exposed to the airflow. Y'all be careful. It might be
>worthwhile to call IVO and have a discussion - I've always found them to be
>real helpful.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Eugene Zimmerman" <eugenezimmerman@dejazzd.com>
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Prop tips
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman
><eugenezimmerman@dejazzd.com>
> >
> > I have a concern for anyone cutting an IVO tip. Remember that the core
> > is not where the strength is but in the kevlar or carbon fiber or what
> > ever it is that is on the outer surface of the prop.
> > It seems to me there could be a problem of delamination if the core is
> > exposed and no longer consistently covered by the fiber cover. Wood
> > props like Terry has would not have this issue.
> >
> > Just passing along my concern.
> >
> > EZ
> >
> >
>
>
Message 2
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Terry <tkrolfe@usadatanet.net>
jerb and others,
I have been thinking about your trying to cut the tips on your IVO prop
and a agree with Eugene and Duncan about possible delaminaton. What I
think is the problem is that when you only cut the tip to reduce the
diameter your not exposing anymore fiber to the direct impact of the air
stream since the tip is at a right angle to it . But, if you cut the
tip at an angle and then contour that angle into an airfoil, you will
have unsupported fiber directly exposed in to the air stream. Cutting
the angle and contouring will leave a lot of cut strands facing forward
with only the foam core for it to hold onto. This is just my reasoning
and very well could be wrong. Of course I didn't have this problem
because I did it to a wood prop.
I think the solution for composite props is for the company
manufacturing them to form the tip in this configuration during
production. Problem is they then would have to make a mold for each
different diameter since you wouldn't just be able to cut them to size.
This might be why their reluctant to make this design.
Hopefully someone out there knows more then I and come come up with a
way to alter the composite props safely. Then you all could take
advantage of the improved noise reduction and performance.
Terry - FireFly #95
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Prop tips and IVOs |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Hi Gang:
Sitting here in the Heart of Dixie, just got dark, already 34F. Was 20F
the other morning. Maybe I am located to far north. Can't go much further
south or I'll be back in the Yankees again. Just kidding guys. I have a
lot of Yankee friends. Besides, I was born in Mainville, PA. Guess that
makes me a Yankee with an Alabama accent.
With all the chatter about IVOs and prop tip angles, got to thinking about
IVO props. Perhaps some of you experts and others can share some personal
knowledge on this.
I have flown IVOs on factory aircraft, but never owned one. Therefore, I
know very little about them, other than when the silver tape starts coming
off. They will let you know about it in the form of strange and serious
vibrations.
The thing I was thinking about was the foam core and the open ends. From
what I gather, IVO makes all the blades, for a certain run, the same length,
then cuts them to please the customer. That leaves the prop tip with the
foam core exposed to the elements. I don't know if they seal those exposed
tips or not.
My question is, "What effect does moisture (all types), freezing temps,
bugs, etc., have on the blade performance, durability, endurance, and
reliability?"
Off the top of my head, seems like, that foam might act like a sponge. I do
not know. Thinking out loud again.
I know wooden props have a moisture problem if their finish coating of
varnish, or whatever, is penetrated.
On the other hand, being a Warp Drive kind a guy, we do not have a problem
with foam core, moisture, bugs, and imbalance. For that matter, I have
never had a balance problem, or had to balance a Warp Drive since I started
flying them more than 10 years ago. Noisy? You bet, but they get me there
and get me home. For that confidence, I'll learn to live with the noise.
I heard a year or so ago that Daryl, of Warp Drive, was working on a
scimitar prop blade that would eliminate the Warp Drive "whiney noise".
Hopefully, they are still working on that blade. I have not heard.
Take care,
john h
Message 4
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Vincent <emailbill@chartermi.net>
Hi Jim Turner
Thank you for the great information, no Yawn Here.
Bob, even though it seems like you were getting a Big Yawn, we were all
reading with interest.
Bill Vincent
Firestar II
Upper Peninsula of Michigan
Do Not Archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | Mark III switch layout |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Joel Reed" <jfreed@dejazzd.com>
Hello Kolbers,
I have been wondering how I could change my toggle switch and key switch from
the panel to some where closer to the pilot for easier access. I had been
checking the archives and I learned some things, and I wondered if any of you
have a picture of how you have installed your toggle switches and key switch,
I have heard of some of you installing it above the pilot's head and some of
you have put it along the center. If any of you have pictures for me to see
how you did it, it would be a big help. I am ready to change my while its too
cold to fly now.
Thanks
Joel Reed
93 Kolb Mark III w/582 E-box
Lancaster Co, Pa
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Prop tips and IVOs |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman <eugenezimmerman@dejazzd.com>
John Hauck wrote:
>
>
> My question is, "What effect does moisture (all types), freezing temps,
> bugs, etc., have on the blade performance, durability, endurance, and
> reliability?"
>
> Off the top of my head, seems like, that foam might act like a
sponge. I do
> not know. Thinking out loud again.
>
John,
The Ivo core is not foam. ( some composite props are though)
The IVO core is a dense solid kind of plastic that does not absorb
water. The core however does not have fiber in it for the tensile
strength that is necessary to withstand the centrifugal and other forces.
The outer fiberglass works like the caps on the wing spar that some
airplanes use with a foam insulation core or web. It is Very light yet
strong.
The Ivo prop is extremely durable.
I put a screwdriver through one at full throttle. It flung the
screwdriver into the ground sideways about a foot deep. It was a
tremendous impact. It put a gouge about 3/8 inch deep X 3/4 inch long
into the leading edge.
I could have been baaadd!!! Or Worse!
I repaired the gouge and used the prop many years.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Polycarbonate |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Jim Turner...
Dang right we were listening Jim!
Thanks
Don Gherardini
FireFly 098
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Mark III switch layout |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride@comcast.net>
I don't have pictures of my old arrangement - I built a little panel of
aluminum that extended from the top of the strut that the flap handle and
the choke control are mounted to, forward to the steel bow that the
windshield forms around. The panel was about 3 inches wide and about 15
inches long. I had two rows of switches in it. I didn't use the key
switch, I used individual toggle switches for the ignition. I built an
enclosure from lexan ( just bent it in a vise, guys) and fastened it over
the back (top) of the switches to keep them covered. It was handy when I
was using the original panel in the fiberglass nosecone, but I got tired of
it because I never really got comfortable reaching for the switches and
flipping them by feel, I always looked to be sure I was switching the right
one, and I had to lean one way and twist my neck to see. After about 20
hours, I installed a new instrument panel about 10 inches closer to the
seats. The panel is bigger now and holds everything, and I can reach all
the switches with my harness fastened. Like a lot of others have done, I
hinged the panel so it drops down and I can get at everything to work on it.
That's been real nice. I have the EIS out right now to get the fuel flow
system installed - it's nice not to have to go through contortions just to
unscrew an instrument from the panel. (Next project is an access door in
the nose cone to get at the battery and brake fluid reservoir.)
Good luck. Sorry it's too cold to fly. We get a couple days like that
every year or so - hate it when that happens... ;<)
Duncan McBride
Twinstar Mk III, 319DM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Reed" <jfreed@dejazzd.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: Mark III switch layout
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Joel Reed" <jfreed@dejazzd.com>
>
> Hello Kolbers,
> I have been wondering how I could change my toggle switch and key
switch from the panel to some where closer to the pilot for easier access.
Message 9
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
Several years ago I got a chance to go through a composites layup and
repair course at Moody Aviation School here in Elizabethton and one of the
things we had to do was repair damaged composites that had a soft core. We
each had to layup three layers of glass/epoxy over a practice core, cut a
divot in it, and then cut away the glass skin and repair the divot.
What we did was use a small flexible sanding disc about 3" in diameter to
carefully sand down through the plys of glass until we just barely touched
the foam core, scarfing away the glass at a very shallow angle, the same
general concept as AC 43 shows for scarf patching a plywood skin on an
airplane. So we had the shallow scarfed depression, and filled it in with
carefully cut circles of glass and epoxy, each one larger in diameter than
the one below it, overlaying a corresponding layer of the scarfed glass,
plus an extra one on top. After it cured, then we sanded the top one pretty
much back off, not touching the next one down, to give it a smooth surface.
It was very tedious and labor intensive, but I think that is how you would
safely change the shape of an Ivo tip if you reformed it.
You would cut it to the desired shape, and then scarf sand the outer skin
at a shallow angle so you could lay up several thin glass plys over it to
restore the skin thickness to something very close to original except with
the new shape. I would expect it to be tedious and require a good mask and
goggles, isn't that thing carbon fiber? Probably Very Nasty.
Plus, you would want to have the leading and trailing edges made so that
you could get the new glass plys to contact each other in a way that would
assure good security at the sharp leading and trailing edges. The idea of a
small perimeter cord sounds good.
Concerning the foam core: I have taken a knife and poked at my core at the
end of the blade, and it feels about the consistency and firmness of
basswood. Don't know yet what it would look like without the outer skin, or
how solid it might be. If anyone has a busted Ivo laying on a back shelf,
I'll pay shipping if you want to send it to me to practice on, then I'll
modify my good prop and let everybody know how it works. Or if it works. Or
if it is a waste of time and screws up an otherwise good propeller...
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 06:28 PM 1/8/04 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Terry <tkrolfe@usadatanet.net>
>
>jerb and others,
>
>I have been thinking about your trying to cut the tips on your IVO prop
>and a agree with Eugene and Duncan about possible delaminaton. What I
>think is the problem is that when you only cut the tip to reduce the
>diameter your not exposing anymore fiber to the direct impact of the air
>stream since the tip is at a right angle to it . But, if you cut the
>tip at an angle and then contour that angle into an airfoil, you will
>have unsupported fiber directly exposed in to the air stream. Cutting
>the angle and contouring will leave a lot of cut strands facing forward
>with only the foam core for it to hold onto. This is just my reasoning
>and very well could be wrong. Of course I didn't have this problem
>because I did it to a wood prop.
>
>I think the solution for composite props is for the company
>manufacturing them to form the tip in this configuration during
>production. Problem is they then would have to make a mold for each
>different diameter since you wouldn't just be able to cut them to size.
>This might be why their reluctant to make this design.
>
>Hopefully someone out there knows more then I and come come up with a
>way to alter the composite props safely. Then you all could take
>advantage of the improved noise reduction and performance.
>
>Terry - FireFly #95
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Prop tips and IVOs |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ul15rhb@juno.com
John,
I'm not sure what the core is made of, but I know that mine has retained
its balance for about 12 years without doing anything to it. I may have
added some fast glue to the ends when I sawed it off, but I can't
remember.
I know Ivo makes those medium sized props for higher horsepower engines.
Ralph
Original Firestar
17 years flying it
On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:34:28 -0600 "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
writes:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> Hi Gang:
>
> Sitting here in the Heart of Dixie, just got dark, already 34F.
> Was 20F
> the other morning. Maybe I am located to far north. Can't go much
> further
> south or I'll be back in the Yankees again. Just kidding guys. I
> have a
> lot of Yankee friends. Besides, I was born in Mainville, PA. Guess
> that
> makes me a Yankee with an Alabama accent.
>
> With all the chatter about IVOs and prop tip angles, got to thinking
> about
> IVO props. Perhaps some of you experts and others can share some
> personal
> knowledge on this.
>
> I have flown IVOs on factory aircraft, but never owned one.
> Therefore, I
> know very little about them, other than when the silver tape starts
> coming
> off. They will let you know about it in the form of strange and
> serious
> vibrations.
>
> The thing I was thinking about was the foam core and the open ends.
> From
> what I gather, IVO makes all the blades, for a certain run, the same
> length,
> then cuts them to please the customer. That leaves the prop tip
> with the
> foam core exposed to the elements. I don't know if they seal those
> exposed
> tips or not.
>
> My question is, "What effect does moisture (all types), freezing
> temps,
> bugs, etc., have on the blade performance, durability, endurance,
> and
> reliability?"
>
> Off the top of my head, seems like, that foam might act like a
> sponge. I do
> not know. Thinking out loud again.
>
> I know wooden props have a moisture problem if their finish coating
> of
> varnish, or whatever, is penetrated.
>
> On the other hand, being a Warp Drive kind a guy, we do not have a
> problem
> with foam core, moisture, bugs, and imbalance. For that matter, I
> have
> never had a balance problem, or had to balance a Warp Drive since I
> started
> flying them more than 10 years ago. Noisy? You bet, but they get
> me there
> and get me home. For that confidence, I'll learn to live with the
> noise.
>
> I heard a year or so ago that Daryl, of Warp Drive, was working on
> a
> scimitar prop blade that would eliminate the Warp Drive "whiney
> noise".
> Hopefully, they are still working on that blade. I have not heard.
>
> Take care,
>
> john h
>
>
>
=
>
=
>
=
>
=
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Alabama Temperatures |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: The Kuffels <kuffel@cyberport.net>
Do Not Archive
John,
<<already 34F. Was 20F the other morning>>
And I'm supposed to be sympathetic? For several days we've had more
than 20 below. Last few days it never got above zero. Heatwave hit
today, got up to your 20 above.
Promise it won't be this cold come July and the Alaska trip departure.
Tom Kuffel
Whitefish, MT
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Mark III switch layout |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
If you have the single center stick, you could build a little console to go
between your legs. That's where mine is and aside from needing to carefully
plan how to get all the wires and switches in a small place, it was not too
difficult.
Picture at
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg4.htm
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 09:26 PM 1/8/04 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Joel Reed" <jfreed@dejazzd.com>
>
>Hello Kolbers,
> I have been wondering how I could change my toggle switch and key
> switch from the panel to some where closer to the pilot for easier
> access. I had been checking the archives and I learned some
> things, and I wondered if any of you have a picture of how you have
> installed your toggle switches and key switch, I have heard of some of
> you installing it above the pilot's head and some of you have put it
> along the center. If any of you have pictures for me to see how you did
> it, it would be a big help. I am ready to change my while its too cold
> to fly now.
> Thanks
> Joel Reed
> 93 Kolb Mark III w/582 E-box
> Lancaster Co, Pa
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Polycarbonate |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
OK guys, please accept my humble apology......musta been a trifle
grumpy when I wrote that. I prefer to be my natural happy wiseass. ;)
-BB, watching that michigan cold drift into this neighborhood
Bill Vincent wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Vincent <emailbill@chartermi.net>
>
>Hi Jim Turner
>
>Thank you for the great information, no Yawn Here.
>
>Bob, even though it seems like you were getting a Big Yawn, we were all
>reading with interest.
>
>Bill Vincent
>Firestar II
>Upper Peninsula of Michigan
>
>Do Not Archive
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Mark III switch layout |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
> Good luck. Sorry it's too cold to fly. We get a couple days like that
> every year or so - hate it when that happens... ;<)
>
> Duncan McBride
> Twinstar Mk III, 319DM
>
Duncan,
Just got home from work,its 15 degrees out, have not been able to fly since
11/22/03 due to weather mostly.
You make me ill! :-)
Denny Rowe
Freezing in South West PA
do not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Mark III switch layout |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
>
> Hello Kolbers,
> I have been wondering how I could change my toggle switch and key
switch from the panel to some where closer to the pilot for easier access.
I had been checking the archives and I learned some things, and I wondered
if any of you have a picture of how you have installed your toggle switches
and key switch, I have heard of some of you installing it above the pilot's
head and some of you have put it along the center. If any of you have
pictures for me to see how you did it, it would be a big help. I am ready
to change my while its too cold to fly now.
> Thanks
> Joel Reed
> 93 Kolb Mark III w/582 E-box
> Lancaster Co, Pa
>
>
> Joel,
I have my switch box mounted in the center just in front of the bow that the
Mk-3s windshield wraps around above and in front of my head, its mounted
with P-clamps to the bow and the foreward rear enclosure bows.
As my Gull doors and rear enclosure are of my own design, I don't know if
you can mount yours the same.
In this position the switches, breakers and ignition are very easy to see
and reach.
Dennis Rowe, Mk-3,Leechburg, PA
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