Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:32 AM - bmw, what's on top? (Jim Gerken)
2. 06:01 AM - Re: trailer of shame (John Hauck)
3. 06:05 AM - Re: Flight Farm 1989 (John Hauck)
4. 06:10 AM - John H: BMW questions/comments (Jim Gerken)
5. 06:11 AM - 1985 Firestar ()
6. 06:22 AM - Re: Flight Farm 1989 (HShack@aol.com)
7. 06:41 AM - Re: Flight Farm 1989 (GeoR38@aol.com)
8. 06:45 AM - Re: trailer of shame (GeoR38@aol.com)
9. 07:13 AM - Re: Flight Farm 1989 (John Hauck)
10. 07:45 AM - Re: Flight Farm 1989 (Don Gherardini)
11. 07:55 AM - The effect of speed reduction on power (Dale Sellers)
12. 08:27 AM - fuel tanks (boyd young)
13. 08:27 AM - cross country flying (boyd young)
14. 09:08 AM - Re: The effect of speed reduction on power (Richard Pike)
15. 09:38 AM - Re: Flight Farm 1989 (Don Gherardini)
16. 09:55 AM - Re: The effect of speed reduction on power (Larry Bourne)
17. 09:56 AM - Re: The effect of speed reduction on power (Don Gherardini)
18. 10:04 AM - What happen to rich (Judy or Larry Gitt)
19. 10:05 AM - A Kolb in This Year's UL Calendar (Kirby Dennis Contr ASC/TM)
20. 10:28 AM - Re: aluminum tanks (Gherkins Tim-rp3420)
21. 10:30 AM - Re: The effect of speed reduction on power (Don Gherardini)
22. 10:55 AM - HP (Kirk Smith)
23. 11:27 AM - Re: The effect of speed reduction on power (Denny Rowe)
24. 11:30 AM - Re: The effect of speed reduction on power (Denny Rowe)
25. 11:37 AM - Re: The effect of speed reduction on power (Denny Rowe)
26. 01:18 PM - Re: The effect of speed reduction on power (Dale Sellers)
27. 01:22 PM - Original Firestar Instrument Panel (John Hauck)
28. 01:38 PM - Re: NE Kolb Homecoming (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
29. 02:23 PM - Re: Flight Farm 1989 (GeoR38@aol.com)
30. 02:24 PM - Re: The effect of speed reduction on power (GeoR38@aol.com)
31. 03:07 PM - Re: Flight Farm 1989 (John Hauck)
32. 03:11 PM - Re: The effect of speed reduction on power (Jack & Louise Hart)
33. 03:18 PM - Re: The effect of speed reduction on power (Jimmy @ Jo Ann Hill)
34. 04:11 PM - Re: Flight Farm 1989 (Don Gherardini)
35. 05:22 PM - Re: photoshare (Thom Riddle)
36. 05:29 PM - FireStar II questions (Thom Riddle)
37. 08:53 PM - Lowering FireFly Propeller Thrust Line (Jack & Louise Hart)
38. 09:05 PM - Re: FireStar II questions (Don Gherardini)
39. 09:39 PM - Re: FireStar II questions (John Hauck)
40. 11:06 PM - Re: Re: photoshare (Linda Rowe)
41. 11:55 PM - Re: Flight Farm 1989 (GeoR38@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | bmw, what's on top? |
01/26/2004 07:31:26 AM
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jim Gerken <gerken@us.ibm.com>
>Time: 10:18:54 PM PST US
>From: "Christopher Armstrong" <tophera@centurytel.net>
>Subject: Kolb-List: bmw power
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong"
<tophera@centurytel.net>
>Since the cam shaft and pushrods are on the bottom of the bmw what is in
>that big bump on top of the crank case? Could you cut some of that away
>and save a few pounds? I can't think of what would be in there.
>Topher
Starter. There's a cover over it, and that could be removed, wouldnt
need it at all really. In fron of that theres a engine case section that
also provides mounting for the rectifier, which coul be moved so the case
section and cover could be cut down. Both these mods could provide maybe 4
pounds reduction if redone in fiberglass and foam. There would be maybe 50
hours in the job. Won't be this year, that much is certain.
Good input Topher.
Jim Gerken
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: trailer of shame |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> There is no shame in trailering to Monument Valley, my friend! The shame
> would be to miss it completely. Also makes things a bit more convenient
to
> have a vehicle around instead of being tied to the plane. > Erich Weaver
Erich/All:
I agree with what you say.
Last year worked out great. We had the right mix of people who flew and
trailered in. Jim Hefren's trailer became his and Boyd Young's home, plus a
good place to gather during the day. A lot of us slept in Jim's yard and
saved a dollar or two on camping fees. :-) Having ground transportation
made getting the gear from the airplane to the campground, fueling, and
eating, a lot more convenient. I did enjoy walking up and down the hill,
looking at those gigantic red rocks and cliffs. However, there were other
times I was more interested in that good coffee and breakfast at the
resturant than the red dirt and rocks.
One of the best things about our sport is freedom of choice. We pretty much
can do what we want to do with our airplanes, during building as well as
flying them. Satisfying our desires, the excitement and fun of building and
flying, meeting and spending time with others with similar interests, that's
what it is all about. I feel lucky to be part of this Kolb Family, spread
world wide. Special folks!
john h
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Flight Farm 1989 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> I tried to buy an H-1 pegasus with a 503 in fla once...went very
cheap...and I
> was an hour late...man...I brooded over missing that one for awhile!
>
> That H-2 in your pics is a real beauty!
>
> Don Gherardini
Don/Gang:
Bert's prototype H-1 Pegasus was powered by a 277. I did not fly it. I bet
the 503 powered Pegasus performed well.
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 4
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| Subject: | John H: BMW questions/comments |
01/26/2004 08:10:30 AM
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jim Gerken <gerken@us.ibm.com>
>Hi Jim G/All:
>I like the BMW set up.
>How can you get more horses out of it?
>What is the engine rated for now? HP/Torque/Red Line?
>Are the silencers straight through? I bet the BMW would not be that noisy
>with straight pipes cut the proper length. John Williamson's Jabiru was
>running straight exhaust without being overly annoying. I liked the way
it
>sounded.
>Realistically, the 582 burns 5 to 5.5 gph at 5800 to 6000 rpm. Just
>guessing, but the BMW will probably burn about 3 gph putting out
equivalent
>power. I know nothing about BMW engines, other than their great
reputation
>for reliability. I bet one could squeeze a lot more than 66 hp out of one
>and still keep it on the realiable side of the equation.
>Take care,
>john h
On the bike, they claim 60 Hp. Redline intermittant is set at 7250,
continuous is 7000. The silencers I am using are glass packs, with one
perforated obstruction halfway through. The noise so far is a bit louder
than the 582, with the noise spectrum biased toward louder at lwer
frequencies, and less high-pitched noise than the 582. This works out well
since the ANR headsets work better at lower frequencies. Straight pipes
were so freeking loud it was like a drag car. No way I could tolerate it,
let alone the neighbor factor.
Mods to get more power include cam, bigger valve heads, higher compression.
I've seen one turbocharged. Yes, there is more available power without
compromising too much reliability.
Jim Gerken
Message 5
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: <billie.kennedy@cox.net>
Does anyone have a flight manual for the subject Firestar? I just purchased this
Firestar with a Rotax 447.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Flight Farm 1989 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com
In a message dated 1/26/2004 12:16:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,
donghe@one-eleven.net writes:
I have always admired Howlands designs.The tig welded square tube alum
fuselage interests me alot.,,, not to mention they are all so attractive. I
tried to buy an H-1 pegasus with a 503 in fla once...went very cheap...and I
was an hour late...man...I brooded over missing that one for awhile!
There is a Pegasus w/447 beautifully built by an A & P in SC for sale.
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Flight Farm 1989 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
In a message dated 1/25/04 11:00:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jhauck@elmore.rr.com writes:
>
> Hi Everyone:
>
> A couple quick pics for Bert Howland's H-2 Honey Bee.
>
> The only other UL I have ever flown, except Kolb's.
>
> This was a real easy, fun airplane to fly. It practically landed by itself.
> Keep coming back on the stick. It will land itself, in a nice 3 point
> landing. Was powered by a 447 Rotax.
>
> http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Osh%201989/H2%20Honey%20Bee%201989.jpg
>
> http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Osh%201989/H2-2.jpg
>
> http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Osh%201989/H2-3.jpg
>
> http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Osh%201989/H2-4.jpg
>
> john h
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
Wow!! John!!...what great pictures, I was surprised that it was the biplane
though...I was always attracted to the low wing version 'cause it looked soooo
much like the P-40 flying tiger, my most favorite airplane of the big one. Did
you ever get a chance to fly that one? I think Bert must have been a real
heavy in the industry too. But I really don't know any history.
George Randolph
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: trailer of shame |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
In a message dated 1/26/04 12:02:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com writes:
> It also resulted in me mentioning a possible return trip to MV
> on the List sometime later, which ended up being last years trip - so much
> fun that we are all gonna do it over again.
>
> Anyway,I still prefer to trailer the longer distances - especially when Im
> on my own. See ya on the road pardner.
>
>
> Erich Weaver
>
>
Great story Erich!!
George Randolph
sounds about like what I would write as a non X countryer
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Flight Farm 1989 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> I think Bert must have been a real
> heavy in the industry too. But I really don't know any history.
>
> George Randolph
George/All:
Do a google search on: "Bert+Howland"
You will get a lot of info.
Here's his bio page: http://members.cox.net/classic-aero/bert.htm
And here's the HO Malone's home page for Classic Aero:
http://members.cox.net/classic-aero/index.htm
HO was a US Army historian. It shows in his work putting the web site
together.
I am grateful I had the opportunity to spend time with Bert and Ellen
Howland in their home and fly with Bert over the beautiful NY countryside.
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Flight Farm 1989 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
George,
Do you know what he wants for it?..and if there is any web info on it?...
The H-1 I missed out on was in fact that one..it was advertised as a HP-40
or something like that...the adv threw me off fer a sec but when I saw the
pic..I was in luv!
You might remember an AC magazine several years back that had an H-1--P-40
lookalike on the cover...I saved it because I really liked that paint
job...well, after I saw the pic...I dug out that old mag and I swear it was
that same bird...or at least a dead ringer for it...ad read something like
this..
HP-40 for sale...50 hours TTAF&E...503..perfect condition as new...estate
sale, 7500 firm ,contact executor at ......
WEll I email em right away, and got a return to the effect of...we need a
cashiers check for 7500 made out to.such an such....and a phone number for 9
to 4 weekdays...that was on sunday...monday morning I went to the bank an
got the check...got a trailer secured..and was home by noon explaining to
Sue that I was on my way to Florida to buy (another) airplane, hoping she
wouldnt tell me to stay down there!
Anyway...I printed the email for address and phone and called the
number.....
It was an attourney on the other end....he told me the bird was just bought
by the fella who had an airplane in the next stall in the hangar where it
was located.....He said "He must have found out yesterday at the hangar it
was for sale...and he was at my office1st thing this morning"
ARGHHHH....there went my mini-warbird dreams!
DO NOT ARCHIVE.....I'm still trying to forget!
Don Gherardini
FireFly 098
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Message 11
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| Subject: | The effect of speed reduction on power |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dale Sellers" <dsel1@bellsouth.net>
I have a question for you thinkers. I am too old to concentrate this hard. It
makes my brain hurt, even though I am a retired math teacher,
it's been a long time since my Physics classes.
It seems that I remember something about power increase being directly proportional
to speed decrease, not taking into consideration inefficencies of things
like bearing friction, belt slippage or chain/gear friction.
That said, I know that if you reduce the speed of an engine at a given RPM through
the use of some sort of a reduction drive, the power delivered to the out
put is increased.
That's why my 1957 Ford tractor with a 34 hp engine, has more than enough power
to pull two row implements.
BUT, if the decrease in speed is directionly portional to the power gain, that
would mean that my 35 hp Cuyuna on my Ultra Star with a 2.56:1 reduction drive,
would be delivering 2.56 X 35 hp or it would be delivering 89.6 hp to the output
shaft and I don't think it's doing that.
What's wrong with this picture?
Dale Sellers
Georgia Ultra Star
Message 12
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"Kolb-List Digest Server" <kolb-list-digest@matronics.com>
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "boyd young" <by0ung@brigham.net>
To the fellows with custom aluminum tanks, John Williamson and Uncle Craig, among
others. What are you doing to the exterior of the tanks? Painting, anodizing?
Is there a need to do anything? I know that Steven Green painted his tank.
Clay Stuart
-------------------------------------
i polished mine and put automobile wax on it.
boyd
Message 13
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| Subject: | cross country flying |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "boyd young" <by0ung@brigham.net>
me (Why are they following ME???). I
later joked to Boyd that I felt like the guy in the cell phone commercial,
saying "Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now?" over and over, just so I
could hear someone's voice and reassure myself I was not alone.
Erich
-------------------------------------------------
I pulled the lead job on a couple legs..... remember the two without radios.....
they would pop up out of nowhere and cut you off in the pattern.... monument
valley last may was a much better trip.... this year lets plan a couple daytrips
and branch out a bit further.
boyd
do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: The effect of speed reduction on power |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
Not really qualified to have an opinion, but here goes anyway...
Doesn't the horsepower stay the same,
but the reduction drive multiplies the torque,
and that is what increases the output work accomplished?
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
At 10:55 AM 1/26/04 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dale Sellers" <dsel1@bellsouth.net>
>
>I have a question for you thinkers. I am too old to concentrate this
>hard. It makes my brain hurt, even though I am a retired math teacher,
>it's been a long time since my Physics classes.
>
>It seems that I remember something about power increase being directly
>proportional to speed decrease, not taking into consideration
>inefficencies of things like bearing friction, belt slippage or chain/gear
>friction.
>That said, I know that if you reduce the speed of an engine at a given RPM
>through the use of some sort of a reduction drive, the power delivered to
>the out put is increased.
>
>That's why my 1957 Ford tractor with a 34 hp engine, has more than enough
>power to pull two row implements.
>BUT, if the decrease in speed is directionly portional to the power gain,
>that would mean that my 35 hp Cuyuna on my Ultra Star with a 2.56:1
>reduction drive, would be delivering 2.56 X 35 hp or it would be
>delivering 89.6 hp to the output shaft and I don't think it's doing that.
>
>What's wrong with this picture?
>
>Dale Sellers
>Georgia Ultra Star
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Flight Farm 1989 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
John...thx for the links to the Bert Howland info....was truely good
reading...which also made me see I was mis-representing the Pegasus as an
H-1...when it is an H-3....and the HP-40 was apparantly a Howland
derivation..which I also didnt know...and I also didnt know that Bert moved
the UL manufactureing to FLA....after seeing that HP-40 on those pages you
linked...I swear it was the same one that I missed...complete with Jap zero
kill markings...
AND...that high wing design..the "Chimp"...MAN thats a beauty....another I
would like to get my hands on...it seems a shame we lost Bert when he was
really starting to break ground with some good designs...a tragic loss to
our sport.
do not archive
Don Gherardini
FireFly 098
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: The effect of speed reduction on power |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
I believe it multiplies the torque, not the horsepower. Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Sellers" <dsel1@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: The effect of speed reduction on power
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dale Sellers" <dsel1@bellsouth.net>
BUT, if the decrease in speed is directionly portional to the power gain,
that would mean that my 35 hp Cuyuna on my Ultra Star with a 2.56:1
reduction drive, would be delivering 2.56 X 35 hp or it would be delivering
89.6 hp to the output shaft and I don't think it's doing that.
>
> What's wrong with this picture?
>
> Dale Sellers
> Georgia Ultra Star
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: The effect of speed reduction on power |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Dale....its a hard concept to understand sometimes.....when I am teaching
our engine service schools....I attempt to describe it this way..
We measure torque with an insturment....and we caculate horsepower with a
caculator., and not all manufacturers of engines use the generally accepted
"Watts" formula for caculating Hp anymore. So when you us the term
"Power"...it is important to keep this concept in mind.
now...to address your question....lets forget horsepower...because we
increase torque with a reduction drive....the same as we increase the torque
to the wheels of our auto with a transmission....we never think of
increasing the horsepower of our car with a transmission.
so when you are caculating the HORSEPOWER gained by a reduction
unit....technically you loose some...NEVER gain..
In your horsepower caculation..you need to adjust the horsepower caculation
of the reduced output shaft by the rpm reduction numbers....(time factors in
you hp formula)
A Horsepower rating basically is a torque rating converted to a time
factor....and thats where the rpm number effects the formula.
All in all...its a lousy way to rate an engine really! But...Marketing has
seized the horsepower numbers and put all the effort behind it use.
Today..it is very difficult to compare engines with Horsepower ratings as
which is more "powerful" than the other...which is just how some marketing
people want it!
Don Gherardini
Sales / Engineering dept.
American Honda Engines
Power Equipment Company
CortLand, Illinois
800-626-7326
Message 18
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| Subject: | What happen to rich |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Judy or Larry Gitt" <gittj@earthlink.net>
Possums, What happen to Rick is he still alive and still flying ?
Message 19
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| Subject: | A Kolb in This Year's UL Calendar |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr ASC/TM <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
Kolb Friends -
I just received my Ultralight Flying! Calendar for 2004.
It was fun to see a Kolb picture taken from one of our own List member's
planes:
Peter Volum (from Florida) captured a very nice photo of a Firestar cruising
low over a south Florida lake.
Actually, the picture was taken by Peter's 10-year-old son, from the right
seat of his dad's Mark-III.
Congratulations on being published, Peter!
Dennis Kirby
Mark-III in
New Mexico
Do not archive
Message 20
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Gherkins Tim-rp3420 <rp3420@motorola.com>
Clay,
Uncle Craig did nothing to the outside or inside of his aluminum tank. The welds
are works of art, done by a local guy here who does a lot of custom work as
well as work on indy cars. After the tank was welded up, we air pressurized
it for 4 days and it never lost air pressure over that time. So no sloshing the
inside of the tank was necessary.
If we were to do it over again, I would suggest some sort of anodizing, because
after time the tank will start to dull with oxidation.
Nephew Tim Gherkins
Firestar II in painting stage.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clay Stuart
Subject: Kolb-List: aluminum tanks
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Clay Stuart" <tcstuart@adelphia.net>
To the fellows with custom aluminum tanks, John Williamson and Uncle Craig, among
others. What are you doing to the exterior of the tanks? Painting, anodizing?
Is there a need to do anything? I know that Steven Green painted his tank.
Clay Stuart
building Mark IIIXtra
Danville KY
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Re: The effect of speed reduction on power |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Dale....I re-read you post...and here you being a math teacher....I should
have said it like this maybe...
Horsepower stays the same..minus additional frictional losses of reduction
unit.(just as you suggest)...torque is multiplied by your formula
correctly...so instead of using 35 hp x 2.56....use torque x 2.56..
then...when you have the new torque number....run the watts formula
backwards to find the "new "hp number...which...by the reduced rpm...will be
back around 35...
hp= torque x rpm
divided by 5252
Don Gherardini
Sales / Engineering dept.
American Honda Engines
Power Equipment Company
CortLand, Illinois
800-626-7326
Message 22
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
Horsepower is energy expended and converted to mechanical work. A certain amount
of energy input produces a certain amount of work. Can't increase the produced
work without increasing the input energy. Assuming 100% efficiency in the conversion.
Reducing the output rotational velocity doesn't improve the efficiency
of the energy source . Same amount of energy is applied but at a rate that
is more efficiently doing the work we want it do interacting with the work load
we are moving. Now how much energy and hp does it take to move 12 inches of
snow from 2000 ft of runway. ugh!
Do not archive
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: The effect of speed reduction on power |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
on power
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dale Sellers" <dsel1@bellsouth.net>
>
> I have a question for you thinkers. I am too old to concentrate this
hard. It makes my brain hurt, even though I am a retired math teacher,
> it's been a long time since my Physics classes.
>
> It seems that I remember something about power increase being directly
proportional to speed decrease, not taking into consideration inefficencies
of things like bearing friction, belt slippage or chain/gear friction.
> That said, I know that if you reduce the speed of an engine at a given RPM
through the use of some sort of a reduction drive, the power delivered to
the out put is increased.
>
> That's why my 1957 Ford tractor with a 34 hp engine, has more than enough
power to pull two row implements.
> BUT, if the decrease in speed is directionly portional to the power gain,
that would mean that my 35 hp Cuyuna on my Ultra Star with a 2.56:1
reduction drive, would be delivering 2.56 X 35 hp or it would be delivering
89.6 hp to the output shaft and I don't think it's doing that.
>
> What's wrong with this picture?
>
> Dale Sellers
> Georgia Ultra Star
>
>
Dale,
With your tractor or cars gearbox, putting them in lower gears increases the
engines leverage and does the same work at lower speed, gives it more
leverage if you will. Trading speed for power.
With the reductions on our slow aircraft, we are gearing down the engines
to match the crafts slow speeds and getting the added advantage of slower
turning higher pitch larger disk area props which increases our traction.
This is why helecopters have large diameter low pitch rotors instead of
small fast turning high pitch rotors, the big slow fans are more efficient.
Running our ULs with small props at crankshaft speeds would be like pulling
out from a stop sign with our car in 5th gear and running bicycle tires, if
you were drag racing someone, the bike tires wouldn't hook up to good on
your car.
I hope this helps more than it confuses.
Dennis Rowe, Mk-3, PA
do not archive
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: The effect of speed reduction on power |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
Wow Rich,
That was a lot more concise and better answer than mine! I guess I am a
little on the long winded side.
Denny
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Pike" <rwpike@charter.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: The effect of speed reduction on power
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
>
> Not really qualified to have an opinion, but here goes anyway...
> Doesn't the horsepower stay the same,
> but the reduction drive multiplies the torque,
> and that is what increases the output work accomplished?
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: The effect of speed reduction on power |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
Don,
This kind of info and help is what makes this list so valuable, makes us all
more educated.
Thanks bud.
Denny
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: The effect of speed reduction on power
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
>
> Dale....I re-read you post...and here you being a math teacher....I should
> have said it like this maybe...
> Horsepower stays the same..minus additional frictional losses of reduction
> unit.(just as you suggest)...torque is multiplied by your formula
> correctly...so instead of using 35 hp x 2.56....use torque x 2.56..
> then...when you have the new torque number....run the watts formula
> backwards to find the "new "hp number...which...by the reduced rpm...will
be
> back around 35...
>
> hp= torque x rpm
> divided by 5252
>
>
> Don Gherardini
> Sales / Engineering dept.
> American Honda Engines
> Power Equipment Company
> CortLand, Illinois
> 800-626-7326
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: The effect of speed reduction on power |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dale Sellers" <dsel1@bellsouth.net>
From what I'm reading, I hear that the term "Horse Power" is insignificant.
I assume that the term originated from the ability of one horse to do work.
It seems that we have long since gotten away from that standard. Obviously,
the three and one half horse power engine on my push mower can't possibly do
the work of three and one half horses in a given time period. It seems that
engine manufacturers have taken the term and used it to mean what ever they
want. Actually, it is a false statement as used today, yet what do we look
at first when we look at the specs on a new engine for our planes...."What
is it's horsepower?".
I don't understand the term "torque" at all because I don't have anything to
base it on, like the power of one horse, but another term I don't
understand...."foot pounds". It seems that what we look for in an engine
is:
1) horse power (the higher, the better)
2) torque (the higher the better)
3) rpm at which maximum torque is generated
4) then we take a number given to us by propellor designers which is usually
somewhere around 2500 rpm's, where a prop is most efficient, and try to come
up with a reduction ratio that will match, as closely as possible, the
desired prop speed with the engine rpm where maximun torque is generated.
I know that reducing an engine's output rpm's with a reduction drive of some
sort, leaving the actual engine rpm's unchanged, increases it's ability to
do work.
Maybe we need to abandon both terms horsepower and torque and come up with a
new measurement term of an engine's ability to do work that could be
standard to all engines so we could make an accurate comparison. Maybe a
new term such as "power factor" or something.
Anyway, I have been trying to figure this thing out all of my adult life and
am more confused now than when I started and my brain is beginning to hurt
again.
Dale Sellers
----- Original Message -----
From: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: The effect of speed reduction on power
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
>
> Don,
> This kind of info and help is what makes this list so valuable, makes us
all
> more educated.
> Thanks bud.
> Denny
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: The effect of speed reduction on power
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini"
<donghe@one-eleven.net>
> >
> > Dale....I re-read you post...and here you being a math teacher....I
should
> > have said it like this maybe...
> > Horsepower stays the same..minus additional frictional losses of
reduction
> > unit.(just as you suggest)...torque is multiplied by your formula
> > correctly...so instead of using 35 hp x 2.56....use torque x 2.56..
> > then...when you have the new torque number....run the watts formula
> > backwards to find the "new "hp number...which...by the reduced
rpm...will
> be
> > back around 35...
> >
> > hp= torque x rpm
> > divided by 5252
> >
> >
> > Don Gherardini
> > Sales / Engineering dept.
> > American Honda Engines
> > Power Equipment Company
> > CortLand, Illinois
> > 800-626-7326
> >
> >
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Original Firestar Instrument Panel |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Hi Gang:
Actually, this picture is on my updated instrument panel. The one that was
pulled back towards the pilot so he could do normal pilot things, like, see
it. :-) I took this shot somewhere north of Marshall, Texas, climbing over
the mountains towards Muscogee, OK, and the Hat Box Flyin 1989. Got
everything I need right there on the little panel:
Slip/Skid Indicator
Mag Compass
Digital Tach (Ticking along at 5,800 rpm, normal cruise for the 447. I had
started pulling Cuz'n P'fer's nose up to get over those mountains in the
foreground and he's still indicating 67 MPH. The note on the back of the
pic indicates I need 3,500 feet to clear the mountains. I'm working on it.)
Cyl Head Temp
G Meter
Altimeter
ASI
EGT
http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Hat%20Box%20Flyin%201989/Firestar%20Instr%20Panel.jpg
The G Meter should have kept me honest, but it takes more than high readings
on an instrument to get a "fool's" attention. Normal aerobatics pulled 3 to
3.5 g's. Intentionally, I could not get the airplane to pull more than 5
g's. The most I encountered in turbulence was 3 g's. That is as in, "I was
flying along and BAM!!! I hit a bump in the road." That was probably wind
shear, which, BTW, hurt my neck when it happened. The lighter the load,
the more violent the reaction to the wind. I was on my way to Sun and Fun
1989, with an RON at Woodville, FL. I'll have to look in my log book, but I
believe it took me a tad over two hours to fly from Gantt IAP, AL, to
Woodville, FL, about 250 miles, with a cruise speed of about 70 mph. When I
got to the cow pasture at Woodville, which was surround by planted pines on
3 sides, I had the worst time in my aviation career getting the Firestar on
the ground in one piece. I made 5 or 6 approaches before it was over. Bro
Jim was just a grinning at me when I was trying to fly that little bucking
bronco. Twern't funny a bit to me. Was one wild ass ride. Guaranteed to
pump adrenalin.
Those were the good old days!
john h
PS: Little did I know, one could eventually wear one of these little
airplanes out, especially when flown well beyond what it was originally
designed for. :-(
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: NE Kolb Homecoming |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
This sounds interesting but around July 4th isn't good for me and near the
end of July I will be heading for Oshkosh. Which brings to mind an earlier
post of mine about getting a group to fly into Oshkosh this year. Anyone
interested???
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
----- Original Message -----
From: "Linda Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: NE Kolb Homecoming
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Linda Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> >
> > > Dayton Ohio (where this all started), a mass flight to Homers farm
> (only
> > > with his blessing), > Denny
> >
> > Denny/Ya'll/All:
> >
> > Homer Kolb would freak out, in a good way of course, if a bunch of Kolbs
> > made a mass flight into his airstrip. I'll go along with that. In
fact,
> > that would be a good place to have a flyin, with Homer's permission of
> > course. Nothing fancy, a lot like MV. No plans, no organization, no
> work,
> > just good times. There are several good places to eat near to Homer's,
> but
> > not within walking distance. I bet you all could pull it off if you
> wanted
> > to.
> >
> > john h
> > DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
> North Eastern Kolbers others,
> I am off work the week of the 4th of July and as of now have no real plans
> for the week.
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Flight Farm 1989 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
In a message dated 1/26/04 10:47:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
donghe@one-eleven.net writes:
> George,
>
> Do you know what he wants for it?..and if there is any web info on it?...
>
> The H-1 I missed out on was in fact that one..it was advertised as a HP-40
> or something like that...the adv threw me off fer a sec but when I saw the
> pic..I was in luv!
> You might remember an AC magazine several years back that had an H-1--P-40
> lookalike on the cover...I saved it because I really liked that paint
> job...well, after I saw the pic...I dug out that old mag and I swear it was
> that same bird...or at least a dead ringer for it...ad read something like
> this..
> HP-40 for sale...50 hours TTAF&E...503..perfect condition as new...estate
> sale, 7500 firm ,contact executor at ......
> WEll I email em right away, and got a return to the effect of...we need a
> cashiers check for 7500 made out to.such an such....and a phone number for 9
> to 4 weekdays...that was on sunday...monday morning I went to the bank an
> got the check...got a trailer secured..and was home by noon explaining to
> Sue that I was on my way to Florida to buy (another) airplane, hoping she
> wouldnt tell me to stay down there!
> Anyway...I printed the email for address and phone and called the
> number.....
> It was an attourney on the other end....he told me the bird was just bought
> by the fella who had an airplane in the next stall in the hangar where it
> was located.....He said "He must have found out yesterday at the hangar it
> was for sale...and he was at my office1st thing this morning"
>
> ARGHHHH....there went my mini-warbird dreams!
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE.....I'm still trying to forget!
>
> Don Gherardini
>
Don, I don't know what it is about the P-40 but to me it is almost unreal. So
much so that when I moved down here to the Villages in Fl, I joined the
Hangar Flyers, which is just a group of ol farts sittin around tellin lies about
their aviation days. More than half are Navy flyers and many are WWII. The
Villages has a parade for everything and one of them is the opening of the
Christmas season. ...er....lighting of the Christmas Tree, I guess they call it.
The
Hangar Flyers have traditionally been in this parade and I was asked to
participate as a golf cart aerobatic flyer. Well, I'm one of the "younger" ones
at 65
so I went ahead and made a nose and wings and tail for my teal colored golf
cart for 3 weeks and entered it into the aerobatics part of the parade. So with
spinning 3 blade prop, teeth and lift components my "Teal Tiger" got every
ones' attention as we "flew" and did figure 8s and other maneuvers along the
parade route.
I loved the movie "Pearl Harbor" for its shots of the Tiger, and have met
several of the 44 remaining original AVG. When I had to say hello to them I
couldn't speak and felt like a real dummy. They were gracious though. There were
only 3 at that sitting. I bought the book of one and he died shortly thereafter.
I think the nose and the tail are soooo distinctive and the H-1 had both. Its
fuselage was shorter proportionately, but it sure did look like the real
thing. I would love to have one but I can't even get my Firestar down here
....would love to fly it down but have no X country experience. Um more of a Glider
pilot ...actually got a license for that.
well, I'm ramblin....so..... glad to see at least one other moved by the
P-40....If one shows up at the EAA convention anymore it is the maximum for the
ol
bird, I'm afraid.
your friend
George Randolph
Firestar drive (i wish) in The villages
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: The effect of speed reduction on power |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
In a message dated 1/26/04 10:56:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dsel1@bellsouth.net writes:
>
> It seems that I remember something about power increase being directly
> proportional to speed decrease, not taking into consideration inefficencies of
> things like bearing friction, belt slippage or chain/gear friction.
> That said, I know that if you reduce the speed of an engine at a given RPM
> through the use of some sort of a reduction drive, the power delivered to the
> out put is increased.
>
Torque, which is a force, not power which includes time and force.
George Randolph
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Flight Farm 1989 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> AND...that high wing design..the "Chimp"...MAN thats a beauty....another I
> would like to get my hands on...it seems a shame we lost Bert when he was
> really starting to break ground with some good designs...a tragic loss to
> our sport.
> Don Gherardini
Don/All:
Bert normally designed along classic lines. His airplanes were beautiful.
As far as flying, I can only speak for the short period of time, a couple
hours, that I flew the H2 Honey Bee at his strip in Maryland, NY, and at the
Flight Farm. His Honey Bee was the first tractor airplane I had ever flown.
In fact, it was the first aircraft, rotary or wixed wing, that I had ever
flown with the engine and prop in the front. I like it.
The day I flew up from Homer's to Bert's, I was using sectional and mag
compass to navigate. I remember flying up the Sequehana River from
Binghamton, over Oneonta, then I saw a grass strip. There was a red, white
and blue Citabria sitting outside the hangar. This couldn't be the right
airstrip. I needed a pit stop. I'd land here and ask where Bert's strip
was.
I landed, taxied up to the hanger. Lo and behold, I was at the right place.
There was Bert and Ellen, and one of Bert's old friends who I can not
remember his name. Bert was in the process of running in the 447 on this
airplane.
http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Osh%201989/Chip%20Monk.jpg
Bert came over to Cuz'n P'fer to meet me. We were walking back past the
Honey Bee to the hanger and the others, when Bert said, "Get in and try it
on for size." Well, I got in, and it fit. He said, "Go take her for a
flight." I grinned and went flying in the Bipe, while Bert finished running
in the 447 on the Chip Monk.
This is a picture of the Chip Monk's first flight with the designer/builder
at the controls. I loved to watch Bert fly. On the ground, taxiing, he had
the most gentle of all control touches. He never got in a hurry, always
taking it nice and easy, as though he were taxiing a big ole Gooney Bird or
his big ass Bearcat. I asked him about that one day. He told me to always
treat them gently and they would always be there when you needed them. I
try to remember that now, after many mistakes teaching my self to fly fixed
wings.
http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Osh%201989/Chip%20Monk%201st%20Flt.jpg
Bert and I flew to Ole Rhinebeck Aerodrome, early one Sunday morning, over
the mountains between the Sequehana and the Hudson Rivers.
http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Osh%201989/Bert%20Howland%201.jpg
I guess ole Bert is still up there flying, somewhere. I hope he approves of
what we are building and flying. I think he does. He liked all forms of
aviation.
We landed at Ole Rhinebeck. Were following the GA traffic taxiing back off
the grass strip to a designated parking area on the far side of the
spectator line and bleachers. About halfway back in the woods, this little
old guy came running up to us. My first thought was what have we done now?
It was Cole Palen, the gentleman that started the whole Ole Rhinebeck
operation. He wanted Bert and I to park our airplanes up on the showline,
so all could see. When he found out that I had flown up from Alabama, and
Bert's background, he had someone make signs to put on little stands in
front of our aiplanes so all could read and learn about them. Bert and I
had free run of Ole Rhinebeck. We were VIP's, hehehe.......... What that
meant was, we could go behind all the ropes and barriers to stick our heads
inside those wonderful old airplanes. To see, touch, and smell them. To
really experience them first hand. If you look to the left front of the
1918 Curtis Jenny, that the Honey Bee and Firestar are parked next to, you
can see Bert walking to the right in front of the Jenny. Bert has on a
plaid long sleeve shirt. That is the gift shop to the front of our
airplanes.
http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Osh%201989/Ole%20Rhinebeck%201.jpg
Another shot of the two little ultralights being treated as equals to some
very old, historical, flying aircraft.
http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Osh%201989/Ole%20Rhinebeck%202.jpg
Here's the man and his bird. Notice how rolling the airstrip is at Ole
Rhinebeck. They say that Cole Palen bought the property, cleared the ridge,
and left the lay of the land as it was. The airstrip is like a roller
coaster from one end to the other. It is also completely surrounded by
thick forrest.
http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Osh%201989/Ole%20Rhinebeck%203.jpg
Here's another young man with Bert's machine. He has been flying
ultralights over a period of 5 years. However, when one subtracts the down
time for repairs, overhauls, and building replacements aircraft, John Hauck
had less than 3 years of actual flying time during that 5 year period.
http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Osh%201989/Ole%20Rhinebeck%204.jpg
I'll post more when I take time, and the urge strikes! Hope it doesn't
strike too hard though. Can't take too much punishment until I get over
this darn bug I have had for the last three days.
Take care,
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: The effect of speed reduction on power |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
At 10:55 AM 1/26/04 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dale Sellers" <dsel1@bellsouth.net>
>
Dale,
There is a good explanation of horsepower and torque at:
http://www.4x4abc.com/jeep101/torque.html
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 33
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| From: | "Jimmy @ Jo Ann Hill" <hillstw@jhill.biz> |
| Subject: | Re: The effect of speed reduction on power |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jimmy @ Jo Ann Hill" <hillstw@jhill.biz>
What's wrong is:
power is equal to force times distance, divided by units of time. ie, one
horsepower is defined as 550 foot-pounds per second. When you hold power
input equal, and reduce either force, or distance in a given unit of time,
then the other parameter goes up. (more force, less distance, or more
distance, less force)
Another way to think of it is this: your tractor may be able to pull a one
bottom plow at, say, 5 miles per hour, but may only be able to pull a two
bottom plow at 2.5 miles per hour.
Regards.
Jimmy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Sellers" <dsel1@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: The effect of speed reduction on power
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dale Sellers" <dsel1@bellsouth.net>
>
> I have a question for you thinkers. I am too old to concentrate this
hard. It makes my brain hurt, even though I am a retired math teacher,
> it's been a long time since my Physics classes.
>
> It seems that I remember something about power increase being directly
proportional to speed decrease, not taking into consideration inefficencies
of things like bearing friction, belt slippage or chain/gear friction.
> That said, I know that if you reduce the speed of an engine at a given RPM
through the use of some sort of a reduction drive, the power delivered to
the out put is increased.
>
> That's why my 1957 Ford tractor with a 34 hp engine, has more than enough
power to pull two row implements.
> BUT, if the decrease in speed is directionly portional to the power gain,
that would mean that my 35 hp Cuyuna on my Ultra Star with a 2.56:1
reduction drive, would be delivering 2.56 X 35 hp or it would be delivering
89.6 hp to the output shaft and I don't think it's doing that.
>
> What's wrong with this picture?
>
> Dale Sellers
> Georgia Ultra Star
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Flight Farm 1989 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
John....dang those are great pics..and the narratives ...well it just makes
me dream!....
Cant thank you eonugh for sharing those....and I sure hope you get to
feeling better.
Snow is A$$-deep to a tall indian here now...drifts at the end of the lane 5
ft high...this internet hangar flying sure helps keep a fellas summertime
dreams moving along!
Whether technical talk.....or hangar flying...it is all so dang good! I am
gonna have to go on the road tomorrow for a few days...and I am gonna be
thinking aircraft thoughts now for the whole time!!
.this group is the best!..every dang one of ya's!
Keep it up men.
Don Gherardini
FireFly 098
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Message 35
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
I am very interested in such a NE get together. The Finger Lakes are always nice
but of course there are countless good places in the area.
Thom in Buffalo
Message 36
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| Subject: | FireStar II questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
I know you asked about a FS II w/ 503 but I just had to chime in here with real
world data on the early FS single seat w/ 377 and 60" IVO 2-blade prop. My normal
cruise is 60 mph IAS (checked with GPS up and down wind avg. at 5300 rpm
and 2.1 gph > 28.5 mpg in no wind conditions. This is with full enclosure so it
is probably a bit faster than with just a windshield. It will fly at 70 but
it is too noisy for my tastes and burns more than 3 gph at that speed. Cheap Thrills!
Thom in Buffalo
Message 37
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| Subject: | Lowering FireFly Propeller Thrust Line |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
FireFlyers & Kolbers,
I cut the IVO propeller to 56 inches so that it would clear the tail tube with
the belt reducer rotated 135 degrees down from its original position. This drops
the thrust line to six inches below that of the Rotax 447. Still waiting
for flyable weather so that I can test it out. Out of curiosity, I ran some numbers
to see what happens when one lowers the thrust line on a FireFly.
Basically, it shows that a higher thrust line adds to the wing and the horizontal
tail loads. Flying with a more rear CG reduces wing and horizontal tail loads.
By rotating the belt reduction unit 135 degrees down, it drops the thrust
line 9.39 inches. The calculations indicate a drop in wing and tail loads of
9.9 pounds with a CG at 37%. If one keeps everything else the same but moves
the CG forward to 20% the change in wing and tail loads due to thrust line shift
remain the same, but the total loads increase by 18 pounds.
Now I must fly the FireFly, to see if the reduction in wing and tail loading will
off-set the loss in propeller efficiency by cutting it from 62 to 56 inches.
Fuel burn rates from a couple of one half hour flights with the belt reducer
in the 45 and the 135 degree off set should indicate if thrust line lowering
is effective.
The calculations and assumptions can be seen at:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly101.html
Waiting for a 40+ degree, no rain or fog day with the wind below 20 mph.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: FireStar II questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Thx Tom...and all you Firestar owners for the dope!...
however...The general conclusion is a FireStar wont really preform much
better than my FireFly as far a cruising speed.
My numbers with the UL-II-02 are pretty close...
60 mph cruise at 5300...2.5 gph
75 or so WOT (6200) @ 3.5 GPH...maybe higher fuel...have never really held
it WOT for very long..I just know it really burns the gas at 6200 which is
what Im propped for. MAX hp is 38 @ 6200
ANYway... looks like a 503 FS II will do 2 things the Fly wont...hold a tad
more gear an stuff....and burn more gas...but not really cruise faster.???
Now...John H...John W....and all you X-country'in Kolbers....I was under the
impression that you guys cruised faster than 60mph...right?
when you guys flew MV last year..or ...anywhere else you have been on a
"Kolb Karavan" trip.....do you have trouble slowing up for the
FireStars?...
I Know That where I fly out of..I'm about the fastest cruiser at 60 mph of
all the regular flyers...and the Fly really just doesnt fly well below about
50...throttle hunts around...you have to pay to much attention to flying to
enjoy it.
I have been making 150 mile flights this summer. (got a 10 gal tank
now)..just wandering in big circles..ending up back at homeplate and having
a ball visiting airports and UL feilds in central Illinois.
I reckon what I'm askin is....How do you all get along on a fairly long
You can guess that I'm askin all these silly questions because I would
dearly luv to join up in a x-country..but I dont want to hold up the
caravan...and the trouble is I cant haul any gear for a RON...so I was
thinking of a FSII....But it doesnt look like thats the bird to do it in
either.
Now...all you who where kind enough to share info with me...share your
thoughts on this also!
thx men...
Don Gherardini
FireFly 098
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: FireStar II questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> Now...John H...John W....and all you X-country'in Kolbers....I was under
the
> impression that you guys cruised faster than 60mph...right?
Don/Gang:
We land 60 mph. :-)
My normal cruise is 80 to 90 mph. Whatever Miss P'fer is going to cruise at
at 5000 or 5200 rpm. Normally, that is right at 85 mph.
Those are about the same numbers for John W's Kolbra powered with the Jab
direct drive. He will probably cruise a little faster with the 912S based
on a 72" 3 blade warp drive prop over the 58" two blade warp on the Jab.
We flew 75 mph all the way from Iron Mountain, MI, to OSH, based on the 503
powered Kit Fox that flew with us.
At times, on the Kitty Hawk flight, we were flying 70 to 75, based on Steve
Green's 582 powered MK III. The other two 912 MKIII drivers eventually
found out if they pushed the little throttle lever forward a tad more, the
airplane would fly about 80 mph with ease.
Bro Jim and I have been talking about taking some incidence out of the wing
on my MK III. We feel one of the biggest drag factors on most of the Kolb
models is the high flying tail boom. Takes a lot more power to drag that
thing through the air side ways rather than as the Sling Shot and Kolbra do,
in a more leve attitude and much smaller profile. We've been thinking about
a couple other little tidbits to clean up the air and increase cruise speed.
If I stay home and on the ground long enough, we may get around to playing
with those projects.
I have been flying in the same flight envelope for so long I am quite
comfortable where I am. If I can get another 5 mph cruise. Great. If not.
Ain't no big thing.
Right now I am waiting on a new tachometer to replace the worn out Rotax
tach. Even with the prop tach, interpolating the error producing tach's
readouts is a pain and not the least bit comfortable. I'll have to wait to
get the new 72" Warp Drive dialed in where I want it. Then some nice calm
air to recalibrate the ASI and I'll be good to go.
Got to pull the gear legs and press the bends and hard landings out of them.
Also rewire my instrument panel and intercom/radio.
Get this old bod back in some sort of shape, and I'll be ready to do some
serious fun flying this coming year.
Take care,
john h
Message 40
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Linda Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>
> I am very interested in such a NE get together. The Finger Lakes are
always nice but of course there are countless good places in the area.
>
> Thom in Buffalo
>
Thom, others,
Lets keep brainstorming this NE get together.
Why let all the other guys have all the fun, after all we North Easters only
get a few months out of the year to enjoy our birds.
Denny
do not archive
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Flight Farm 1989 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
In a message dated 1/26/04 6:07:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jhauck@elmore.rr.com writes:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> >AND...that high wing design..the "Chimp"...MAN thats a beauty....another I
> >would like to get my hands on...it seems a shame we lost Bert when he was
> >really starting to break ground with some good designs...a tragic loss to
> >our sport.
>
> >Don Gherardini
>
> Don/All:
>
> Bert normally designed along classic lines. His airplanes were beautiful.
> As far as flying, I can only speak for the short period of time, a couple
> hours, that I flew the H2 Honey Bee at his strip in Maryland, NY, and at the
> Flight Farm. His Honey Bee was the first tractor airplane I had ever flown.
> In fact, it was the first aircraft, rotary or wixed wing, that I had ever
> flown with the engine and prop in the front. I like it.
>
> The day I flew up from Homer's to Bert's, I was using sectional and mag
> compass to navigate. I remember flying up the Sequehana River from
> Binghamton, over Oneonta, then I saw a grass strip. There was a red, white
> and blue Citabria sitting outside the hangar. This couldn't be the right
> airstrip. I needed a pit stop. I'd land here and ask where Bert's strip
> was.
>
> I landed, taxied up to the hanger. Lo and behold, I was at the right place.
> There was Bert and Ellen, and one of Bert's old friends who I can not
> remember his name. Bert was in the process of running in the 447 on this
> airplane.
>
> http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Osh%201989/Chip%20Monk.jpg
>
> Bert came over to Cuz'n P'fer to meet me. We were walking back past the
> Honey Bee to the hanger and the others, when Bert said, "Get in and try it
> on for size." Well, I got in, and it fit. He said, "Go take her for a
> flight." I grinned and went flying in the Bipe, while Bert finished running
> in the 447 on the Chip Monk.
>
> This is a picture of the Chip Monk's first flight with the designer/builder
> at the controls. I loved to watch Bert fly. On the ground, taxiing, he had
> the most gentle of all control touches. He never got in a hurry, always
> taking it nice and easy, as though he were taxiing a big ole Gooney Bird or
> his big ass Bearcat. I asked him about that one day. He told me to always
> treat them gently and they would always be there when you needed them. I
> try to remember that now, after many mistakes teaching my self to fly fixed
> wings.
>
> http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Osh%201989/Chip%20Monk%201st%20Flt.jpg
>
> Bert and I flew to Ole Rhinebeck Aerodrome, early one Sunday morning, over
> the mountains between the Sequehana and the Hudson Rivers.
>
> http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Osh%201989/Bert%20Howland%201.jpg
>
> I guess ole Bert is still up there flying, somewhere. I hope he approves of
> what we are building and flying. I think he does. He liked all forms of
> aviation.
>
> We landed at Ole Rhinebeck. Were following the GA traffic taxiing back off
> the grass strip to a designated parking area on the far side of the
> spectator line and bleachers. About halfway back in the woods, this little
> old guy came running up to us. My first thought was what have we done now?
> It was Cole Palen, the gentleman that started the whole Ole Rhinebeck
> operation. He wanted Bert and I to park our airplanes up on the showline,
> so all could see. When he found out that I had flown up from Alabama, and
> Bert's background, he had someone make signs to put on little stands in
> front of our aiplanes so all could read and learn about them. Bert and I
> had free run of Ole Rhinebeck. We were VIP's, hehehe.......... What that
> meant was, we could go behind all the ropes and barriers to stick our heads
> inside those wonderful old airplanes. To see, touch, and smell them. To
> really experience them first hand. If you look to the left front of the
> 1918 Curtis Jenny, that the Honey Bee and Firestar are parked next to, you
> can see Bert walking to the right in front of the Jenny. Bert has on a
> plaid long sleeve shirt. That is the gift shop to the front of our
> airplanes.
>
> http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Osh%201989/Ole%20Rhinebeck%201.jpg
>
> Another shot of the two little ultralights being treated as equals to some
> very old, historical, flying aircraft.
>
> http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Osh%201989/Ole%20Rhinebeck%202.jpg
>
> Here's the man and his bird. Notice how rolling the airstrip is at Ole
> Rhinebeck. They say that Cole Palen bought the property, cleared the ridge,
> and left the lay of the land as it was. The airstrip is like a roller
> coaster from one end to the other. It is also completely surrounded by
> thick forrest.
>
> http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Osh%201989/Ole%20Rhinebeck%203.jpg
>
> Here's another young man with Bert's machine. He has been flying
> ultralights over a period of 5 years. However, when one subtracts the down
> time for repairs, overhauls, and building replacements aircraft, John Hauck
> had less than 3 years of actual flying time during that 5 year period.
>
> http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Osh%201989/Ole%20Rhinebeck%204.jpg
>
> I'll post more when I take time, and the urge strikes! Hope it doesn't
> strike too hard though. Can't take too much punishment until I get over
> this darn bug I have had for the last three days.
>
> Take care,
>
> john h
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
Great pictures, John, especially of the ole Rhinebeck place.....never been
there but know of its fame. I especially like the way you present the picture
with a little history, makes the whole scene come alive, almost as if I had been
there too. That couldn't have been a 277 in the biplane, could it?!
George RAndolph
Firestar driver from The Villages
George
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