Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:51 AM - Re: Balance Master (Earl & Mim Zimmerman)
2. 05:53 AM - Re: mod weight (Bob Bean)
3. 08:09 AM - from class (Paul Petty)
4. 08:26 AM - Re: mod weight (John Hauck)
5. 08:35 AM - Re: mod weight (Larry Bourne)
6. 08:39 AM - Wing Mod Weights (John Hauck)
7. 08:41 AM - Re: Balance Master (Richard Pike)
8. 09:11 AM - Re: Balance Master (John Hauck)
9. 09:32 AM - Re: mod weight (Don Gherardini)
10. 10:06 AM - mod (Paul Petty)
11. 11:24 AM - Re: mod weight (John Hauck)
12. 11:25 AM - Re: Northeast Fly-in (Bruce n' Kathy)
13. 01:36 PM - Re: Wing Mod Weights (WillUribe@aol.com)
14. 03:20 PM - Re: Balance Master (Richard Pike)
15. 03:45 PM - Re: Wing Mod Weights (Dennis Souder)
16. 03:58 PM - Duane Cole RIP (Denny Rowe)
17. 04:04 PM - first-time builder (curtis groote)
18. 04:11 PM - Re: What's Status on Prop Tip Mod (jerb)
19. 05:19 PM - an old wing (ul15rhb@juno.com)
20. 05:56 PM - work table (Paul Petty)
21. 06:09 PM - Re: Balance Master (Linda Rowe)
22. 06:37 PM - Re: Wing Mod Weights (Christopher Armstrong)
23. 07:03 PM - Re: work table (Richard Harris)
24. 07:03 PM - Re: Balance Master (bryan green)
25. 07:20 PM - Re: work table (bryan green)
26. 07:40 PM - Re: Fuel Octane (John Hauck)
27. 07:51 PM - Re: work table (Timandjan@aol.com)
28. 08:01 PM - Re: from class (ul15rhb@juno.com)
29. 08:15 PM - Re: first-time builder (Richard Pike)
30. 08:21 PM - Re: Sport Pilot (John Hauck)
31. 08:33 PM - Re: Wing Mod Weights (John Hauck)
32. 08:40 PM - Re: What's Status on Prop Tip Mod (Richard Pike)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Balance Master |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Earl & Mim Zimmerman <emzi@supernet.com>
Richard Pike wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
>
> It does. I was hoping to learn about one that actually did something about
> the vibration. My 532 didn't have one, & it was much smoother...
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
That's interesting! Maybe I should take mine off??? I bought a balance
master for the prop.too, but didn't get to try it out yet. -- Earl
Message 2
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
Paul you're only keeping with tradition of homebuilders....everyone has the
opportunity to include a piece of himself in their plane, my own being
no exception.
I doubt that wing failure will ever be a problem on a MkIII, with or
without mods.
(with the exception of control flutter issues)
Personally if I was going to build another set of wings they would have
formed
aluminum ribs, honest-to-goodness drag wires , different airfoil,
thinner spars,
and D-sections. -but then it wouldn't be a Kolb anymore. So being that I
have other things to do in what few years I may have to do them, I shall
content
myself with what I have, look down on the earth below and with a smile on
my face be glad that I'm still doing what most people never got to do. -BB
do not archive
Paul Petty wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <Lynnp@c-gate.net>
>
>Heck Chris, I haven't a clue, just a mod from an expert in this area and a
>fellow that has been there done that sort of mod and proven it.... perhaps
>the powers at be care to explain.
>
>I'm a happy camper with the extra mods....
>Paul Petty
>Building Ms. Dixie
>Kolbra/912UL/Warp
>
>
>do not archive
>
>
>-- Original Message -----
>From: "Christopher Armstrong" <tophera@centurytel.net>
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Kolb-List: mod weight
>
>
>
>
>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong"
>>
>>
><tophera@centurytel.net>
>
>
>>I don't think that the mod you made was an efficient structural addition.
>>What was the point of the addition? To stiffen the ribs front to rear?
>>
>>
>To
>
>
>>increase the bending strength of the rib chordwise?
>>
>>You have added 6 pounds of aluminum angle and a 1/4 pound or so of rivets
>>that are very ineffective at strengthening in the directions that the ribs
>>carry loads in your wing while putting a bunch of holes in you rib tubing
>>weakening it.
>>
>>To strengthen the structure efficiently you need to add the material
>>
>>
>exactly
>
>
>>where it is needed and carry that new load path from the source load all
>>
>>
>the
>
>
>>way back to the wing hard points.
>>
>>I think it is possible that this mod has weakened the structure in
>>
>>
>someways
>
>
>>more then it strengthened it in others.
>>
>>Your statement that it is only the weight of a gallon of gas is also
>>confusing. This is 10 percent of your fuel load, 10 percent of your
>>
>>
>range,
>
>
>>or a reduction in your rate of climb, longer takeoff and landings and a
>>small increase in stall speed. Not completely insignificant, especially
>>
>>
>if
>
>
>>you hit a tree on takeoff someday cause you are 6 pounds heavyer!
>>
>>Kolbs flown responsibly don't have any significant history of structural
>>problems. What are you trying to improve on? If it ain't broke don't fix
>>it.
>>
>>Just wondering
>>
>>Topher
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
Kolbers,
An interesting note from the Rotax class that came to mind that I thought I would
share with those of you that are powered by the 912 series engine is that the
engines oiling system pumps the oil through the engine at a rate of 15 gpm.
With a capacity of only 3 quarts, it can puke it's entire oil supply in 10 to
15 seconds!!! This means by the time your EIS or gauge indicates a loss of oil
pressure, your engine is toast!
Another interesting note applies to the NPRM sport pilot rule. One catch to the
new rule that is not mentioned is that if a pilot fails a medical, he or she
will not be able to fly under the new rule. If you fail a medical your done.
If you do however let your current medical expire then you can fly under the new
rule. If you fail a medical you will have then pass a medical and then let
it expire to go SP.
Take Care...
pp
Message 4
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MARKETING_SUBJECT
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Hi Gang:
I don't, take credit for the rib mod.
Seems the rib mod, using 1/2" and 3/4" aluminum angle to beef up outboard
ribs, was developed by Old Kolb Company, either Homer Kolb or Dennis Souder,
or both.
I took that mod a little further to increase rib strength on my MK III,
which was being built to fly and survive daily in an environment most Kolbs
never see in their lifetime.
Yes, the mod greatly strenthens the rib, especially the nose, which carries
the greatest load in the Kolb wing.
Even responsible pilots can get into situations the airplane was not
designed to operate in. If you have not been there, you probably will not
understand.
I have a feeling Paul's Kolbra is going to be one of those Kolbs that will
fly in places where it could use that extra strength/insurance to get there
and get home. I seriously doubt the extra weight of the rib mod is going to
make the difference of "hitting the tree on take off" or not. Hitting trees
on takeoff has not been a problem with Kolbs, unless they lose the
engine..............
Wish I had had those aluminum angles on my old Firestar. :-)
Take care,
john h
Message 5
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MARKETING_SUBJECT
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
I lost my builder's manual long ago, but seems to me that right in there it
gives directions on adding braces to the wingtips. Also seems to me that
John Hauck went beyond that, and that Paul is taking John's advice. I did
the same. Reason was to strengthen the wingtips to better take the handling
and abuse of folding the wings. It's been a long time since I built mine,
but I remember the reasoning, and it sounded good to me. Hang in there,
Paul, looks and sounds like you're doing a great job.
Lar. Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bean" <slyck@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: mod weight
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
>
> Paul you're only keeping with tradition of homebuilders....everyone has
the
> opportunity to include a piece of himself in their plane, my own being
> no exception.
> I doubt that wing failure will ever be a problem on a MkIII, with or
> without mods.
> (with the exception of control flutter issues)
> Personally if I was going to build
Message 6
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| Subject: | Wing Mod Weights |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Hi Gng:
I don't take credit for the rib mod.
Seems the rib mod, using 1/2" and 3/4" aluminum angle to beef up outboard
ribs, was developed by Old Kolb Company, either Homer Kolb or Dennis Souder,
or both.
I took that mod a little further to increase rib strength on my MK III,
which was being built to fly and survive daily in an environment most Kolbs
never see in their lifetime.
Yes, the mod greatly strenthens the rib, especially the nose, which carries
the greatest load in the Kolb wing.
Even responsible pilots can get into situations the airplane was not
designed to operate in. If you have not been there, you probably will not
understand.
I have a feeling Paul's Kolbra is going to be one of those Kolbs that will
fly in places where it could use that extra strength/insurance to get there
and get home. I seriously doubt the extra weight of the rib mod is going to
make the difference of "hitting the tree on take off" or not. Hitting trees
on takeoff has not been a problem with Kolbs, unless they lose the
engine..............
Wish I had had those aluminum angles on my old Firestar. :-)
Take care,
john h
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Balance Master |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
I wouldn't take it off.
I think when Rotax went from 72 to 76mm on the piston size and changed the
intake timing from 132/52 to 130/50, - plus what ever differences there are
in the ports, it is just not as smooth an engine.
But something I never checked is trying a higher octane. The book says the
532 needs 91.5 octane, and the one time I tried it on 87, it was notably
rougher. (Duh)
Maybe the 582 would get smoother on something better than 87 octane?
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
At 08:47 AM 2/5/04 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Earl & Mim Zimmerman <emzi@supernet.com>
>
>Richard Pike wrote:
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
> >
> > It does. I was hoping to learn about one that actually did something about
> > the vibration. My 532 didn't have one, & it was much smoother...
> >
> > Richard Pike
> > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>That's interesting! Maybe I should take mine off??? I bought a balance
>master for the prop.too, but didn't get to try it out yet. -- Earl
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Balance Master |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> Maybe the 582 would get smoother on something better than 87 octane?
>
> Richard Pike
Richard/Gang:
Only if it is detonating on 87. You haven't increased compression or
advanced the timing, have you?
No matter what, if it makes you feel better, do it. :-)
john h
Message 9
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MARKETING_SUBJECT
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
HIya Gang.....that rob mod that Paul did...it is described zactly the same
in my FireFly Builders manual...and required on the outboard ribs.
The Logic certainly makes sense to me, and although not mentioned in the
plans...I bet is serves 2 problems that could occour.
1st is the known aileron flutter occurance...
Control surface flutter is as often not induced by a occilating flex between
the control surface and the attachment structure.(not just the air passing
to fast over both). If you build a Kolb wing, as you are finished but just
before you add the prescribed angles, you can lift the trailing edge at the
tip very slightly..or anywhere around the bow, and it will rise up before
the spar begins to rise....I measured the "flex" in my wing before the
addition of the angles and it was 3/8 of an inch on the trailing edge...and
slightly more at the center of the bow tip.
As I have been exposed to control surface flutter twice previously in my
life...this disturbed me greatly..(read that as scared the living chit outta
me)...Not in a Kolb...but even after 20 years...everytime a rudder or an
aileron bounces in a thermal....I get the puckers....
So after installing the prescribed angles....this flex was reduced...not
completely...but significantly... After myself and 2 of my A&P friends were
standing around this structure on my bench...the general opinion was another
rib was needed between the Bow area ...which was a greater span than the
ribs spacing. So I added a rib...and a tad more bow stiffining structure.
The goal was to get the wing to be able to be lifted at the trailing edge,
and at the bow...with no flex. we accomplished that. This also preserved the
airfoil profile out a little further towards the tip..with the resulting
taper that is so common to a Kolb wing reduced.
I might add that the 2 compadres of mine...both fellow college buds from
Spartan, have been in the AC industry since we got out of school. 1 went to
work at McDonnel-Douglas...and spent 10 years building F-4s.then on to the
american airlines airframe overhaul center in Tulsa...and the other went to
work for Fairchild building Metroliners till the plant closed. These 2
fellas know more about control surface building and rigging than I can ever
hope to...so their advice was heeded...I should give some credit
here...Cheif Bob( I still call the old F-4 Crew Cheif that) is the
Metroliner man...and he insisted that He be here when the controls were
rigged...even tho he lives several hundred miles away...he made me promise
to let him do it. Well he has never rigged a Kolb...but he came up and told
me to sit my but down over there and watch, and he did it. When I flew the
first flight...no trim was needed, and no adjustments..it flew straight as a
string!
.Then there was that other fella who wore out a firestar...and explained to
me just how the wing failed...I paid alot of attention to him also.
I think they all would approve of your wing Paul.
Don Gherardini
Sales / Engineering dept.
American Honda Engines
Power Equipment Company
CortLand, Illinois
800-626-7326
Message 10
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
Thanks Guys, I tried real hard to make the best wing I could. The angle braces
are not in my Kolbra plans. Not even the outboard 2. If not for the list and John
H bringing it up, I would not even have had the 2 outboard braces! Yikes!
It really pays to use all available resources.
pp
do not archive
Message 11
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MARKETING_SUBJECT, WHY_WAIT
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> 1st is the known aileron flutter occurance...
> Don Gherardini
Don/Gang:
The only requirement to eliminate aileron flutter or prevent it from
happening in the first place, is to install the aileron counterbalance
weights designed by old Kolb, after they finally decided that I was not
lying for six years about aileron flutter experienced on a regular basis in
my Ultrastar and Firestar. When Dick Rahill got the crap scared out of him
during Sun and fun, probably 1993 or 1994, aileron counterbalance weights
were designed and produced for the Firestar initially, but not the MK III.
I installed a pair of Firestar weights on my MKIII (all available at the
time) and flew with them until 2001 when I rebuilt the left wing and changed
up to MKIII weights.
I had designed and installed aileron counterbalance weights on my MK III
during initial build based on flutter problems with my FS and US. My
weights did not work and only agrevated aileron flutter. I made one short
flight and removed them. :-)
I have never encountered elevator or rudder flutter. However, some Kolb
rudders will start an occilation that could get into flutter if ignored.
The cure for rudder flutter is a counterbalance weight similar to Richard
Pike's fix, or keep your feet on the rudder pedals. Could be an easy enough
fix if planned for during construction.
The outboard trailing edge corner is fine the way it is built, according to
plans. Early on I thought it should be stiffened up. Have since changed my
mind based on thousands of hours flown in all kinds of weather without an
inkling of aileron flutter. Rod end bearings are flown until they get
sloppy, inboard hinge hole and bolt are worn and sloppy, the old airplane is
very close to 2,000 hard hours, and she will not go into aileron flutter
with the simple fix of Kolb's aileron counterbalance weights.
I would recommend installation of counter balance weights on all Kolb
aircraft whether you have experienced flutter or not. Why wait until it is
too late to fix?
I have also experienced severe aileron flutter. If the Kolb wings were not
at strong as they are, I am sure I would have had them ripped right off the
airplane on many occassions on all three of my Kolbs, US, FS and MKIII.
Take care,
john h
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Northeast Fly-in |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bruce n' Kathy" <n3nrr@erols.com>
Hi and I live 55 miles south of Shreveport north. Our club CALF Capital
Area Light Flyers WWW.USUA4.org, and a few other clubs (Mason dixion
etc) Help sponosr the event. If in fact the group of you decide to come
on up,over,down, IT would be nice to coordinaate with our club and
othersso we may have things kindda pre arragned and make the welcoming
a pleasant one, and also let the folks of all the clubs around and John
know so that he may plan according.
--
Bruce
Sabre trike
U.S. Not yet soloed
PPC.
Thurmont, md
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 13
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| Subject: | Wing Mod Weights |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: WillUribe@aol.com
Greetings everyone,
I would like to add, the rib mod had nothing to do with flight operations but
was needed for ground handling. If I recall the installation of aluminum
angles on the outboard rib of each wing was recommended if you were going to fold
the wings often. I guess handling the wings from the wing bow put undo
strain on those ribs. I installed them on my FireStar just in case I had to fold
and unfold the wings when I wanted to go flying.
http://members.aol.com/willuribe/142.jpg
http://members.aol.com/willuribe/143.jpg
Regards,
Will Uribe
El Paso, TX
FireStar II N4GU
C-172 N2506U
http://home.elp.rr.com/airplane/
http://members.aol.com/talinamorenop/
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck
Subject: Kolb-List: Wing Mod Weights
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Hi Gng:
I don't take credit for the rib mod.
Seems the rib mod, using 1/2" and 3/4" aluminum angle to beef up outboard
ribs, was developed by Old Kolb Company, either Homer Kolb or Dennis Souder,
or both.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Balance Master |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
Funny, that's what my wife usually says...<grin>
I don't know why the difference, the book says 87 octane, so that's what it
gets & it seems to run OK. (besides, 93 costs more, at least here in
10-E-C) Both engines (532/582) show the same compression ratio, same amount
of ignition advance, use the same exhaust pipes, yet one requires 91.5
octane, & the other is happy with 87. Unless the dual plugs enable the
mixture to burn better, otherwise it's a total mystery to me. I guess it
wouldn't kill me to spend a few bucks extra on some premium gas and see if
it runs any different, although I agree wit'cha, it shouldn't....
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
At 11:10 AM 2/5/04 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> > Maybe the 582 would get smoother on something better than 87 octane?
> >
> > Richard Pike
>
>Richard/Gang:
>
>Only if it is detonating on 87. You haven't increased compression or
>advanced the timing, have you?
>
>No matter what, if it makes you feel better, do it. :-)
>
>john h
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Mod Weights |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Souder" <flykolb@pa.net>
Everyone/All,
Very close Will, especially the "ground" part. Actually we did the outboard
rib reinforcement because of hard landings! Hard landings to the point of
gear bending and wing tip striking the ground. On even a fairly light
strike, the upper rib tube would buckle and then it would be a big repair
job. The angle reinforcement would help prevent damage with light strikes,
and we felt was worth the extra weight. A determined individual could still
do serious damage, but the angle did provided a larger no-damage window.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: <WillUribe@aol.com>
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Wing Mod Weights
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: WillUribe@aol.com
>
> Greetings everyone,
> I would like to add, the rib mod had nothing to do with flight operations
but
> was needed for ground handling. If I recall the installation of aluminum
> angles on the outboard rib of each wing was recommended if you were going
to fold
> the wings often. I guess handling the wings from the wing bow put undo
> strain on those ribs. I installed them on my FireStar just in case I had
to fold
> and unfold the wings when I wanted to go flying.
>
> http://members.aol.com/willuribe/142.jpg
> http://members.aol.com/willuribe/143.jpg
>
> Regards,
> Will Uribe
> El Paso, TX
> FireStar II N4GU
> C-172 N2506U
> http://home.elp.rr.com/airplane/
> http://members.aol.com/talinamorenop/
> do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kolb-List: Wing Mod Weights
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> Hi Gng:
>
> I don't take credit for the rib mod.
>
> Seems the rib mod, using 1/2" and 3/4" aluminum angle to beef up outboard
> ribs, was developed by Old Kolb Company, either Homer Kolb or Dennis
Souder,
> or both.
>
>
Message 16
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
Guys,
The flying community lost a great one on Tuesday 2/3/04 when Mr Duane Cole Passed
away of natural causes.
I met Mr Cole and his Son once at Sun N Fun, he was a real gentleman and a living
legend.
Rest in peace Mr Cole,
Denny Rowe
PS: For more info on Mr Cole, check out eaa.org.
Message 17
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| Subject: | first-time builder |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: curtis groote <cgroote1@yahoo.com>
I'm a novice soon to start on a Firestar. Your
thoughts on a table to build it on or to buy; someone
suggested getting a smarttool level - if so, 2 or 4
feet?; suggestions on an air compressor to take care
of both riveting and spray painting. Thanks.
__________________________________
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: What's Status on Prop Tip Mod |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
Yep smart move - one your comfortable see if you can do a back to back
flight and compare noise and performance. You being a old folk and tone
deaf, you need to take the refueling funnel with you to use as a hearing
aid. I know I would, what'ya say? All I hear is that weed wacker running
all the time.
jerry
At 09:20 PM 2/3/04 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
>
>Friend of mine gave me a busted Ivo to practice grinding on, but am still
>bogged down working on getting the intake silencer box to work right.
>Better stick to one crisis at a time...
>
>Richard Pike
>MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>do not archive
>
>At 05:03 PM 2/3/04 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
> >
> >Any one else modify their prop tips to resemble those on a Top Flite RC
> >model prop?
> >Interested to hear what the results were.
> >jerb
> >http://www.top-flite.com/accys/topq5000.html
> >
> >
>
>
Message 19
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: ul15rhb@juno.com
Paul and others,
When I built my Firestar 17 years ago, I built it according to the plans
I had been given (5-rib wing). I did, however, use a .035" leading edge
tube rather than the .028". I also added three 3/8" braces from the spar
to the LE in a "Z" fashion. I have done nothing to beef up the bowtip
except replace the 1/4" brace tubes from the end of the spar to the
corner of the tailing edge with 5/16". I also added another cross brace
at the corner of the TE and cable tied it to the 5/16" tube.
My Firestar has probably seen more wear and tear during open trailering
and setups than most (400). I think this causes more wear than other
high-time Firestars would see from air stress alone, not counting
aerobatics (John H). It was this kind of stress that probably broke
those 1/4" tubes that I replaced as my wings always rest on the ground
during setup. They break at the sharp bend near the end of the spar and
this will cause it to have a slight roll. If the plane flew hands off
when you built it and now has a slight roll, this is most likely the
problem (or if it had a slight roll and now flies straight).
After a bird strike two years ago, I opened up the left wing and took a
look inside. I saw black powder (sign of a loose rivet) at that brace.
Couldn't miss it as the "black" was all over the inside of the fabric on
the bottom underneath the loose rivet. I did not see anymore signs
elsewhere. This Firestar has seen a lot of wing stress without doing
anything other than fast pullups and wingovers. With the added
strengthening that I have done, it is doing fine to the best of my
knowledge. I might also say that I've always flown it 25 lbs over max
gross weight of 535 lbs (pilot weight 200, plane 300, 11 gallons of fuel
~ 60 lbs) with a Rotax 447. I cannot add a larger engine.
Flying with more power would naturally need more wing strength. Homer
tried to design the Original Firestar staying within the Part 103
regulation. Vne is 80mph and this Firestar has seen at last 85. It's a
good plane. Those bolt-together planes (ie Quicksilvers and others),
would never last this long without the replacement of many tubes. The
new Firestars all have 7-rib wings with more bracing.
Paul's wing is built like bridge and should outlast him.
Ralph Burlingame
Original Firestar
17 years flying it
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:05:35 -0600 "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net> writes:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
>
> Thanks Guys, I tried real hard to make the best wing I could. The
> angle braces are not in my Kolbra plans. Not even the outboard 2. If
> not for the list and John H bringing it up, I would not even have
> had the 2 outboard braces! Yikes! It really pays to use all
> available resources.
>
> pp
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
=
>
=
>
=
>
=
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <Lynnp@c-gate.net>
Curtis, I am also a novice builder of a Kolbra and there are many different ways
to build a work surface for the wings. After just completing my first wing I
can offer this advise. I chose the saw horse method from all the data I collected.
Main thing is to build the saw horses very sturdy and exactly the same.
Second thing I picked up here on the list was to use liquid nails to glue the legs
of the saw horses to the floor. However make sure that you have a very clean
surface on the floor because my work area is very clean and after pounding
away at different components the wood will break lose from the adhesive but still
provide a socket if you will for the legs to sit in.
Third I used a cheap laser level beam of light to make sure the wood horses stayed
true and level. Funny how wood expands and contracts with drying and so forth.
And I used spruce 2x4's expensive in this area. We plan to enter the aircraft
building biz at some point and will build steel jigs to insure accuracy.
Fourth I made mine 4' tall. Depending on how tall you are, I will make the next
set 5' to make for a more comfortable working conditions while rolling around
in a cheap Walmart office chair do all the underside drilling and riveting.I
measure 5'11" tall.
There are other methods for the wings. The wall, which I considered and may try
on another airplane. However my background tends to make me build things level
with the ground.
Also I plan to make mods to my chair to have a place to store clecos and rivets
ready at hand for the under side work. I use a shop apron with pockets that works
ok for now. Also have a cart full of tools that rolls around.
The main thing is that I like to have the wing in a fixed jig through the construction.
And the saw horse method allows me to do this.
Happy building and if there is anything I can pass down let me know........
Paul Petty
Building Ms. Dixie
Kolbra/912UL/Warp
do not archive
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Balance Master |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Linda Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: Balance Master
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
>
> Anybody have any experience with using a Balance Master dynamic balancer
on
> the crank of a Rotax?
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
> Richard,
I have a B/M on the prop flange of my Mk-3s 2SI engine, I took it off once
and noticed a little more vibration than with it installed, put it back on
and seemed to feel an improvement. Figure I'll be leaving it on from now on.
The one on the crank would probably help the same way.
Dennis Rowe, PA
Message 22
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| Subject: | Wing Mod Weights |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" <tophera@centurytel.net>
Everyone/All,
Very close Will, especially the "ground" part. Actually we did the outboard
rib reinforcement because of hard landings! Hard landings to the point of
gear bending and wing tip striking the ground. On even a fairly light
strike, the upper rib tube would buckle and then it would be a big repair
job. The angle reinforcement would help prevent damage with light strikes,
and we felt was worth the extra weight. A determined individual could still
do serious damage, but the angle did provided a larger no-damage window.
Dennis
So Dennis, do you feel that adding those braces to more then just the
outboard rib makes sense? Do you feel that they improve the wing
structurally for flight loads? I don't want to sound negative, stronger
wings are fine... but I just don't like adding weight if it isn't required,
or especially where it isn't doing you a bit of good.
Topher
Message 23
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Harris" <rharris@magnolia-net.com>
However my background tends to make me build things level with the ground
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Petty" <Lynnp@c-gate.net>
OK, Paul you got me with that one.. What kind of background?
Richard
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Balance Master |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "bryan green" <lgreen1@sc.rr.com>
My 377 has Both of the old Balance masters and it runs smooth, but I haven't
flown it without them.
Bryan Green (Elgin SC)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Pike" <rwpike@charter.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Balance Master
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
>
> It does. I was hoping to learn about one that actually did something about
> the vibration. My 532 didn't have one, & it was much smoother...
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
> do not archive
>
> At 08:55 PM 2/4/04 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Earl & Mim Zimmerman <emzi@supernet.com>
> >
> >Richard Pike wrote:
> >
> > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
> > >
> > > Anybody have any experience with using a Balance Master dynamic
> > balancer on
> > > the crank of a Rotax?
> >
> >Richard,
> >If you have a newer 582 it may already have one installed from rotax. If
> >you look on the parts breakdown for the magneto it is Ref.#16 part #
> >965-497. -- Earl
> >
> >
>
>
Message 25
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "bryan green" <lgreen1@sc.rr.com>
One very well grounded. Do not archive
Bryan Green (Elgin SC)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Harris" <rharris@magnolia-net.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: work table
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Harris"
<rharris@magnolia-net.com>
>
> However my background tends to make me build things level with the ground
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Petty" <Lynnp@c-gate.net>
>
> OK, Paul you got me with that one.. What kind of background?
>
> Richard
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List:Fuel Octane |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> I don't know why the difference, the book says 87 octane, so that's what
it
> gets & it seems to run OK
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Richard/All:
The way I understand octane is it is there for one thing only, to prevent
detonation, which is hard on a four stroke and murder on a two stroke.
Increased octane over and above what the engine requires for detonation
prevention does not increase power.
Correct me if I am wrong please.
john h
PS: But I have to agree, sometimes stuff makes us feel better whether it
changes anything or not. Like an airplane that is freshly washed and
cleaned up always flies better than it did dirty. :-)
Message 27
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Timandjan@aol.com
Some things I did that were helpful were to build them fairly tall so you
don't have to bend over to work on the wings, also the saw horses rather than a
solid table were heflful so you can access the wing from underneath.
I actually drilled anchors into the concrete floot and bolted them down. I
also have used bondo and glued them down, Bondo is amazingly strong.
For building the tails, ailerons etc, I found a hollow core door and set it
on sawhorses, which worked great.nbsp;nbsp; I used hollow core cause for
some of the fabricating I cut pieces out of the work surface, for instance when
building the vertical stab, I cut a hole for the fuselage tube ring so it would
lay flat as I fabricated.
Take your time, build jigs to hold things and have fun.
Tim
Message 28
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: ul15rhb@juno.com
Paul,
Take another look at what the rule says:
Q. Can someone with a valid state driver's license but who has been
denied a FAA medical still fly as a sport pilot?
A. Yes. As a sport pilot, per SFAR 89 Sections 15 and 17, as long as you
have a current and valid U.S. driver's license. However, if your
medically disqualifying condition also prohibits you from driving a car,
then the answer would be NO, until such time as a licensed physician
medically certifies you safe to drive.
Ralph
Original Firestar
17 years flying it
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 10:08:24 -0600 "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net> writes:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
>
> Kolbers,
> Another interesting note applies to the NPRM sport pilot rule. One
> catch to the new rule that is not mentioned is that if a pilot fails
> a medical, he or she will not be able to fly under the new rule. If
> you fail a medical your done. If you do however let your current
> medical expire then you can fly under the new rule. If you fail a
> medical you will have then pass a medical and then let it expire to
> go SP.
>
>
> Take Care...
>
> pp
>
>
>
=
>
=
>
=
>
=
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: first-time builder |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
There have been several big discussions on various work tables on the list
over the years, go to the archives at the bottom of this page, go to the
kolb search, and type in "work table", you should find half a dozen
different ways to do a good table.
Same for compressors and rivet pullers.
If you don't get the answers you need, or that works for your situation,
come back and we'll see what we can do!
Good luck and welcome aboard.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
At 04:04 PM 2/5/04 -0800, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: curtis groote <cgroote1@yahoo.com>
>
>I'm a novice soon to start on a Firestar. Your
>thoughts on a table to build it on or to buy; someone
>suggested getting a smarttool level - if so, 2 or 4
>feet?; suggestions on an air compressor to take care
>of both riveting and spray painting. Thanks.
>
>__________________________________
>http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>
>
Message 30
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> A. Yes. As a sport pilot, per SFAR 89 Sections 15 and 17, as long as you
> have a current and valid U.S. driver's license. However, if your
> medically disqualifying condition also prohibits you from driving a car,
> then the answer would be NO, until such time as a licensed physician
> medically certifies you safe to drive.
>
> Ralph
Ralph/All:
Eric Tucker passed this information that he personally received from the FAA
as part of the workgroup.
The above is what most folks think is the way it will work. However,
according to Eric, it does not work that way.
If you have a good medical, go in to have it renewed and flunk it, you are
out. No fly Sport Pilot.
However, if you have a good medical, know you probably have something that
would preclude passing another Class III or higher medical, do not go to a
flight surgeon, let it expire, then you can do the Sport Pilot thing with a
valid drivers license.
If you don't have anything to preclude passing a Class III or higher, allow
it to expire, you are good to go with Sport Pilot if you have a valid
drivers license.
Of course, Eric also told us this has not been approved in final form.
Still has to go before OMB or some such.
If I have any doubt in my mind that I may not be able to pass my next Class
III, I am not going to get it renewed until after the final on Sport Pilot.
We shall have to wait and see what transpires. I have not kept up with
Sport Pilot. Don't claim to know anything about it. Only repeating what I
heard Eric Tucker present in class the other day.
Take care,
john h
john h
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Mod Weights |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> strike, the upper rib tube would buckle and then it would be a big repair
> job. The angle reinforcement would help prevent damage with light
strikes,
> and we felt was worth the extra weight. A determined individual could
still
> do serious damage, but the angle did provided a larger no-damage window.
>
> Dennis
Dennis/All:
When I broke my landing gear at Muncho Lake, BC, 1 July 2000, I was still
moving at a good clip after the gear leg and gear leg mount was wiped off
the fuselage. The load of the aircraft, which was probably around 1100 lbs
at the time, was carried by the right main gear and the left wing tip. When
it was all over, it was the outboard rib aft of the main spar that was
sharing all that load with the right main gear. The rib failed between on
top over the main spar where it buckled. The remainder of the rib was in
good shape. The second rib next to the OB rib was pushed up on slightly as
the result of the trailing edge tube pushing up on it.
When I repaired the wing, I replaced the OB rib, was able to pull the 2d rib
back into position. I replaced the bowtip from mid point to the trailing
edge, all straight tube. Replaced the trailing edge tube back to the mid
point between 2d and 3d rib. Did the same thing for the OB section of the
aileron.
That was the extent of damage and hard replacement and repair. Had the ribs
not had the aluminum angle reinforcements, that includes the first four OB
ribs, I am sure I would have been into much more material repair and
replacement, possibly the main spar. Had that happened, i would have
scrapped the left wing and started from scratch.
Take care,
john h
PS: Thanks for the idea for the ribs from years past.
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: What's Status on Prop Tip Mod |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
Eh? What's that ye say, Sonny? Quit mumbling, speak up!
Actually I finally finished working on my intake silencer box yesterday and
it is as done as it's going to get. It is a marginal success. I can notice
a slight but real improvement when I am flying the airplane, but my wife
can't tell any difference at all when I am taking off at full throttle or
flying past at cruise. But that makes it worth the trouble, since I'm the
one that has to listen to it the longest.
The addition of the silencer box knocks 75 rpm off full throttle climb
outs, and drops 75 degrees off the egt at full and cruise throttle
settings. Which currently has the egt almost exactly where it is supposed
to be. Since I was planning to increase the main jet size to the next
bigger anyway, and also either raise the needle or go the next bigger
needle jet anyway due to the egt getting a bit too high in this dense
winter air, instead I will just leave the silencer box on during the winter
and decide if I need to take it off when the temps warm back up. I got one
of those airstrips that is sort of demanding during takeoff at gross on
really hot days, & I may want that 75 rpm back...
Since it is supposed to rain all day tomorrow, maybe I will spend the day
adding pictures of the mini-project to the web page. If it gets done, will
let you know. By throwing the funnel at you...
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
At 06:19 PM 2/5/04 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
>
>Yep smart move - one your comfortable see if you can do a back to back
>flight and compare noise and performance. You being a old folk and tone
>deaf, you need to take the refueling funnel with you to use as a hearing
>aid. I know I would, what'ya say? All I hear is that weed wacker running
>all the time.
>jerry
>
>At 09:20 PM 2/3/04 -0500, you wrote:
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
> >
> >Friend of mine gave me a busted Ivo to practice grinding on, but am still
> >bogged down working on getting the intake silencer box to work right.
> >Better stick to one crisis at a time...
> >
> >Richard Pike
> >MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> >
> >do not archive
> >
> >At 05:03 PM 2/3/04 -0600, you wrote:
> >
> > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
> > >
> > >Any one else modify their prop tips to resemble those on a Top Flite RC
> > >model prop?
> > >Interested to hear what the results were.
> > >jerb
> > >http://www.top-flite.com/accys/topq5000.html
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
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