---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 02/05/04: 32 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:51 AM - Re: Balance Master (Earl & Mim Zimmerman) 2. 05:53 AM - Re: mod weight (Bob Bean) 3. 08:09 AM - from class (Paul Petty) 4. 08:26 AM - Re: mod weight (John Hauck) 5. 08:35 AM - Re: mod weight (Larry Bourne) 6. 08:39 AM - Wing Mod Weights (John Hauck) 7. 08:41 AM - Re: Balance Master (Richard Pike) 8. 09:11 AM - Re: Balance Master (John Hauck) 9. 09:32 AM - Re: mod weight (Don Gherardini) 10. 10:06 AM - mod (Paul Petty) 11. 11:24 AM - Re: mod weight (John Hauck) 12. 11:25 AM - Re: Northeast Fly-in (Bruce n' Kathy) 13. 01:36 PM - Re: Wing Mod Weights (WillUribe@aol.com) 14. 03:20 PM - Re: Balance Master (Richard Pike) 15. 03:45 PM - Re: Wing Mod Weights (Dennis Souder) 16. 03:58 PM - Duane Cole RIP (Denny Rowe) 17. 04:04 PM - first-time builder (curtis groote) 18. 04:11 PM - Re: What's Status on Prop Tip Mod (jerb) 19. 05:19 PM - an old wing (ul15rhb@juno.com) 20. 05:56 PM - work table (Paul Petty) 21. 06:09 PM - Re: Balance Master (Linda Rowe) 22. 06:37 PM - Re: Wing Mod Weights (Christopher Armstrong) 23. 07:03 PM - Re: work table (Richard Harris) 24. 07:03 PM - Re: Balance Master (bryan green) 25. 07:20 PM - Re: work table (bryan green) 26. 07:40 PM - Re: Fuel Octane (John Hauck) 27. 07:51 PM - Re: work table (Timandjan@aol.com) 28. 08:01 PM - Re: from class (ul15rhb@juno.com) 29. 08:15 PM - Re: first-time builder (Richard Pike) 30. 08:21 PM - Re: Sport Pilot (John Hauck) 31. 08:33 PM - Re: Wing Mod Weights (John Hauck) 32. 08:40 PM - Re: What's Status on Prop Tip Mod (Richard Pike) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:16 AM PST US From: Earl & Mim Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Balance Master --> Kolb-List message posted by: Earl & Mim Zimmerman Richard Pike wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike > > It does. I was hoping to learn about one that actually did something about > the vibration. My 532 didn't have one, & it was much smoother... > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) That's interesting! Maybe I should take mine off??? I bought a balance master for the prop.too, but didn't get to try it out yet. -- Earl ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:56 AM PST US From: Bob Bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: mod weight --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean Paul you're only keeping with tradition of homebuilders....everyone has the opportunity to include a piece of himself in their plane, my own being no exception. I doubt that wing failure will ever be a problem on a MkIII, with or without mods. (with the exception of control flutter issues) Personally if I was going to build another set of wings they would have formed aluminum ribs, honest-to-goodness drag wires , different airfoil, thinner spars, and D-sections. -but then it wouldn't be a Kolb anymore. So being that I have other things to do in what few years I may have to do them, I shall content myself with what I have, look down on the earth below and with a smile on my face be glad that I'm still doing what most people never got to do. -BB do not archive Paul Petty wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" > >Heck Chris, I haven't a clue, just a mod from an expert in this area and a >fellow that has been there done that sort of mod and proven it.... perhaps >the powers at be care to explain. > >I'm a happy camper with the extra mods.... >Paul Petty >Building Ms. Dixie >Kolbra/912UL/Warp > > >do not archive > > >-- Original Message ----- >From: "Christopher Armstrong" >To: >Subject: RE: Kolb-List: mod weight > > > > >>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" >> >> > > > >>I don't think that the mod you made was an efficient structural addition. >>What was the point of the addition? To stiffen the ribs front to rear? >> >> >To > > >>increase the bending strength of the rib chordwise? >> >>You have added 6 pounds of aluminum angle and a 1/4 pound or so of rivets >>that are very ineffective at strengthening in the directions that the ribs >>carry loads in your wing while putting a bunch of holes in you rib tubing >>weakening it. >> >>To strengthen the structure efficiently you need to add the material >> >> >exactly > > >>where it is needed and carry that new load path from the source load all >> >> >the > > >>way back to the wing hard points. >> >>I think it is possible that this mod has weakened the structure in >> >> >someways > > >>more then it strengthened it in others. >> >>Your statement that it is only the weight of a gallon of gas is also >>confusing. This is 10 percent of your fuel load, 10 percent of your >> >> >range, > > >>or a reduction in your rate of climb, longer takeoff and landings and a >>small increase in stall speed. Not completely insignificant, especially >> >> >if > > >>you hit a tree on takeoff someday cause you are 6 pounds heavyer! >> >>Kolbs flown responsibly don't have any significant history of structural >>problems. What are you trying to improve on? If it ain't broke don't fix >>it. >> >>Just wondering >> >>Topher >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:38 AM PST US From: "Paul Petty" Subject: Kolb-List: from class --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" Kolbers, An interesting note from the Rotax class that came to mind that I thought I would share with those of you that are powered by the 912 series engine is that the engines oiling system pumps the oil through the engine at a rate of 15 gpm. With a capacity of only 3 quarts, it can puke it's entire oil supply in 10 to 15 seconds!!! This means by the time your EIS or gauge indicates a loss of oil pressure, your engine is toast! Another interesting note applies to the NPRM sport pilot rule. One catch to the new rule that is not mentioned is that if a pilot fails a medical, he or she will not be able to fly under the new rule. If you fail a medical your done. If you do however let your current medical expire then you can fly under the new rule. If you fail a medical you will have then pass a medical and then let it expire to go SP. Take Care... pp ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:20 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: mod weight MARKETING_SUBJECT --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Hi Gang: I don't, take credit for the rib mod. Seems the rib mod, using 1/2" and 3/4" aluminum angle to beef up outboard ribs, was developed by Old Kolb Company, either Homer Kolb or Dennis Souder, or both. I took that mod a little further to increase rib strength on my MK III, which was being built to fly and survive daily in an environment most Kolbs never see in their lifetime. Yes, the mod greatly strenthens the rib, especially the nose, which carries the greatest load in the Kolb wing. Even responsible pilots can get into situations the airplane was not designed to operate in. If you have not been there, you probably will not understand. I have a feeling Paul's Kolbra is going to be one of those Kolbs that will fly in places where it could use that extra strength/insurance to get there and get home. I seriously doubt the extra weight of the rib mod is going to make the difference of "hitting the tree on take off" or not. Hitting trees on takeoff has not been a problem with Kolbs, unless they lose the engine.............. Wish I had had those aluminum angles on my old Firestar. :-) Take care, john h ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:02 AM PST US From: "Larry Bourne" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: mod weight MARKETING_SUBJECT --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" I lost my builder's manual long ago, but seems to me that right in there it gives directions on adding braces to the wingtips. Also seems to me that John Hauck went beyond that, and that Paul is taking John's advice. I did the same. Reason was to strengthen the wingtips to better take the handling and abuse of folding the wings. It's been a long time since I built mine, but I remember the reasoning, and it sounded good to me. Hang in there, Paul, looks and sounds like you're doing a great job. Lar. Do not Archive. Larry Bourne Palm Springs, CA Building Kolb Mk III N78LB Vamoose www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Bean" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: mod weight > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean > > Paul you're only keeping with tradition of homebuilders....everyone has the > opportunity to include a piece of himself in their plane, my own being > no exception. > I doubt that wing failure will ever be a problem on a MkIII, with or > without mods. > (with the exception of control flutter issues) > Personally if I was going to build ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:29 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Wing Mod Weights --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Hi Gng: I don't take credit for the rib mod. Seems the rib mod, using 1/2" and 3/4" aluminum angle to beef up outboard ribs, was developed by Old Kolb Company, either Homer Kolb or Dennis Souder, or both. I took that mod a little further to increase rib strength on my MK III, which was being built to fly and survive daily in an environment most Kolbs never see in their lifetime. Yes, the mod greatly strenthens the rib, especially the nose, which carries the greatest load in the Kolb wing. Even responsible pilots can get into situations the airplane was not designed to operate in. If you have not been there, you probably will not understand. I have a feeling Paul's Kolbra is going to be one of those Kolbs that will fly in places where it could use that extra strength/insurance to get there and get home. I seriously doubt the extra weight of the rib mod is going to make the difference of "hitting the tree on take off" or not. Hitting trees on takeoff has not been a problem with Kolbs, unless they lose the engine.............. Wish I had had those aluminum angles on my old Firestar. :-) Take care, john h ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:39 AM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Balance Master --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike I wouldn't take it off. I think when Rotax went from 72 to 76mm on the piston size and changed the intake timing from 132/52 to 130/50, - plus what ever differences there are in the ports, it is just not as smooth an engine. But something I never checked is trying a higher octane. The book says the 532 needs 91.5 octane, and the one time I tried it on 87, it was notably rougher. (Duh) Maybe the 582 would get smoother on something better than 87 octane? Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) do not archive At 08:47 AM 2/5/04 -0500, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Earl & Mim Zimmerman > >Richard Pike wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike > > > > It does. I was hoping to learn about one that actually did something about > > the vibration. My 532 didn't have one, & it was much smoother... > > > > Richard Pike > > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > >That's interesting! Maybe I should take mine off??? I bought a balance >master for the prop.too, but didn't get to try it out yet. -- Earl > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:18 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Balance Master --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > Maybe the 582 would get smoother on something better than 87 octane? > > Richard Pike Richard/Gang: Only if it is detonating on 87. You haven't increased compression or advanced the timing, have you? No matter what, if it makes you feel better, do it. :-) john h ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:55 AM PST US From: "Don Gherardini" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: mod weight MARKETING_SUBJECT --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" HIya Gang.....that rob mod that Paul did...it is described zactly the same in my FireFly Builders manual...and required on the outboard ribs. The Logic certainly makes sense to me, and although not mentioned in the plans...I bet is serves 2 problems that could occour. 1st is the known aileron flutter occurance... Control surface flutter is as often not induced by a occilating flex between the control surface and the attachment structure.(not just the air passing to fast over both). If you build a Kolb wing, as you are finished but just before you add the prescribed angles, you can lift the trailing edge at the tip very slightly..or anywhere around the bow, and it will rise up before the spar begins to rise....I measured the "flex" in my wing before the addition of the angles and it was 3/8 of an inch on the trailing edge...and slightly more at the center of the bow tip. As I have been exposed to control surface flutter twice previously in my life...this disturbed me greatly..(read that as scared the living chit outta me)...Not in a Kolb...but even after 20 years...everytime a rudder or an aileron bounces in a thermal....I get the puckers.... So after installing the prescribed angles....this flex was reduced...not completely...but significantly... After myself and 2 of my A&P friends were standing around this structure on my bench...the general opinion was another rib was needed between the Bow area ...which was a greater span than the ribs spacing. So I added a rib...and a tad more bow stiffining structure. The goal was to get the wing to be able to be lifted at the trailing edge, and at the bow...with no flex. we accomplished that. This also preserved the airfoil profile out a little further towards the tip..with the resulting taper that is so common to a Kolb wing reduced. I might add that the 2 compadres of mine...both fellow college buds from Spartan, have been in the AC industry since we got out of school. 1 went to work at McDonnel-Douglas...and spent 10 years building F-4s.then on to the american airlines airframe overhaul center in Tulsa...and the other went to work for Fairchild building Metroliners till the plant closed. These 2 fellas know more about control surface building and rigging than I can ever hope to...so their advice was heeded...I should give some credit here...Cheif Bob( I still call the old F-4 Crew Cheif that) is the Metroliner man...and he insisted that He be here when the controls were rigged...even tho he lives several hundred miles away...he made me promise to let him do it. Well he has never rigged a Kolb...but he came up and told me to sit my but down over there and watch, and he did it. When I flew the first flight...no trim was needed, and no adjustments..it flew straight as a string! .Then there was that other fella who wore out a firestar...and explained to me just how the wing failed...I paid alot of attention to him also. I think they all would approve of your wing Paul. Don Gherardini Sales / Engineering dept. American Honda Engines Power Equipment Company CortLand, Illinois 800-626-7326 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:38 AM PST US From: "Paul Petty" Subject: Kolb-List: mod --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" Thanks Guys, I tried real hard to make the best wing I could. The angle braces are not in my Kolbra plans. Not even the outboard 2. If not for the list and John H bringing it up, I would not even have had the 2 outboard braces! Yikes! It really pays to use all available resources. pp do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:21 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: mod weight MARKETING_SUBJECT, WHY_WAIT --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > 1st is the known aileron flutter occurance... > Don Gherardini Don/Gang: The only requirement to eliminate aileron flutter or prevent it from happening in the first place, is to install the aileron counterbalance weights designed by old Kolb, after they finally decided that I was not lying for six years about aileron flutter experienced on a regular basis in my Ultrastar and Firestar. When Dick Rahill got the crap scared out of him during Sun and fun, probably 1993 or 1994, aileron counterbalance weights were designed and produced for the Firestar initially, but not the MK III. I installed a pair of Firestar weights on my MKIII (all available at the time) and flew with them until 2001 when I rebuilt the left wing and changed up to MKIII weights. I had designed and installed aileron counterbalance weights on my MK III during initial build based on flutter problems with my FS and US. My weights did not work and only agrevated aileron flutter. I made one short flight and removed them. :-) I have never encountered elevator or rudder flutter. However, some Kolb rudders will start an occilation that could get into flutter if ignored. The cure for rudder flutter is a counterbalance weight similar to Richard Pike's fix, or keep your feet on the rudder pedals. Could be an easy enough fix if planned for during construction. The outboard trailing edge corner is fine the way it is built, according to plans. Early on I thought it should be stiffened up. Have since changed my mind based on thousands of hours flown in all kinds of weather without an inkling of aileron flutter. Rod end bearings are flown until they get sloppy, inboard hinge hole and bolt are worn and sloppy, the old airplane is very close to 2,000 hard hours, and she will not go into aileron flutter with the simple fix of Kolb's aileron counterbalance weights. I would recommend installation of counter balance weights on all Kolb aircraft whether you have experienced flutter or not. Why wait until it is too late to fix? I have also experienced severe aileron flutter. If the Kolb wings were not at strong as they are, I am sure I would have had them ripped right off the airplane on many occassions on all three of my Kolbs, US, FS and MKIII. Take care, john h ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:25:09 AM PST US From: "Bruce n' Kathy" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Northeast Fly-in --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bruce n' Kathy" Hi and I live 55 miles south of Shreveport north. Our club CALF Capital Area Light Flyers WWW.USUA4.org, and a few other clubs (Mason dixion etc) Help sponosr the event. If in fact the group of you decide to come on up,over,down, IT would be nice to coordinaate with our club and othersso we may have things kindda pre arragned and make the welcoming a pleasant one, and also let the folks of all the clubs around and John know so that he may plan according. -- Bruce Sabre trike U.S. Not yet soloed PPC. Thurmont, md DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:36:56 PM PST US From: WillUribe@aol.com Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Wing Mod Weights --> Kolb-List message posted by: WillUribe@aol.com Greetings everyone, I would like to add, the rib mod had nothing to do with flight operations but was needed for ground handling. If I recall the installation of aluminum angles on the outboard rib of each wing was recommended if you were going to fold the wings often. I guess handling the wings from the wing bow put undo strain on those ribs. I installed them on my FireStar just in case I had to fold and unfold the wings when I wanted to go flying. http://members.aol.com/willuribe/142.jpg http://members.aol.com/willuribe/143.jpg Regards, Will Uribe El Paso, TX FireStar II N4GU C-172 N2506U http://home.elp.rr.com/airplane/ http://members.aol.com/talinamorenop/ do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck Subject: Kolb-List: Wing Mod Weights --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Hi Gng: I don't take credit for the rib mod. Seems the rib mod, using 1/2" and 3/4" aluminum angle to beef up outboard ribs, was developed by Old Kolb Company, either Homer Kolb or Dennis Souder, or both. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:20:43 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Balance Master --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike Funny, that's what my wife usually says... I don't know why the difference, the book says 87 octane, so that's what it gets & it seems to run OK. (besides, 93 costs more, at least here in 10-E-C) Both engines (532/582) show the same compression ratio, same amount of ignition advance, use the same exhaust pipes, yet one requires 91.5 octane, & the other is happy with 87. Unless the dual plugs enable the mixture to burn better, otherwise it's a total mystery to me. I guess it wouldn't kill me to spend a few bucks extra on some premium gas and see if it runs any different, although I agree wit'cha, it shouldn't.... Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) do not archive At 11:10 AM 2/5/04 -0600, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > > > Maybe the 582 would get smoother on something better than 87 octane? > > > > Richard Pike > >Richard/Gang: > >Only if it is detonating on 87. You haven't increased compression or >advanced the timing, have you? > >No matter what, if it makes you feel better, do it. :-) > >john h > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:33 PM PST US From: "Dennis Souder" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Wing Mod Weights --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Souder" Everyone/All, Very close Will, especially the "ground" part. Actually we did the outboard rib reinforcement because of hard landings! Hard landings to the point of gear bending and wing tip striking the ground. On even a fairly light strike, the upper rib tube would buckle and then it would be a big repair job. The angle reinforcement would help prevent damage with light strikes, and we felt was worth the extra weight. A determined individual could still do serious damage, but the angle did provided a larger no-damage window. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Wing Mod Weights > --> Kolb-List message posted by: WillUribe@aol.com > > Greetings everyone, > I would like to add, the rib mod had nothing to do with flight operations but > was needed for ground handling. If I recall the installation of aluminum > angles on the outboard rib of each wing was recommended if you were going to fold > the wings often. I guess handling the wings from the wing bow put undo > strain on those ribs. I installed them on my FireStar just in case I had to fold > and unfold the wings when I wanted to go flying. > > http://members.aol.com/willuribe/142.jpg > http://members.aol.com/willuribe/143.jpg > > Regards, > Will Uribe > El Paso, TX > FireStar II N4GU > C-172 N2506U > http://home.elp.rr.com/airplane/ > http://members.aol.com/talinamorenop/ > do not archive > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kolb-List: Wing Mod Weights > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > > Hi Gng: > > I don't take credit for the rib mod. > > Seems the rib mod, using 1/2" and 3/4" aluminum angle to beef up outboard > ribs, was developed by Old Kolb Company, either Homer Kolb or Dennis Souder, > or both. > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:22 PM PST US From: "Denny Rowe" Subject: Kolb-List: Duane Cole RIP --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" Guys, The flying community lost a great one on Tuesday 2/3/04 when Mr Duane Cole Passed away of natural causes. I met Mr Cole and his Son once at Sun N Fun, he was a real gentleman and a living legend. Rest in peace Mr Cole, Denny Rowe PS: For more info on Mr Cole, check out eaa.org. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:39 PM PST US From: curtis groote Subject: Kolb-List: first-time builder --> Kolb-List message posted by: curtis groote I'm a novice soon to start on a Firestar. Your thoughts on a table to build it on or to buy; someone suggested getting a smarttool level - if so, 2 or 4 feet?; suggestions on an air compressor to take care of both riveting and spray painting. Thanks. __________________________________ http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:56 PM PST US From: jerb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: What's Status on Prop Tip Mod --> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb Yep smart move - one your comfortable see if you can do a back to back flight and compare noise and performance. You being a old folk and tone deaf, you need to take the refueling funnel with you to use as a hearing aid. I know I would, what'ya say? All I hear is that weed wacker running all the time. jerry At 09:20 PM 2/3/04 -0500, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike > >Friend of mine gave me a busted Ivo to practice grinding on, but am still >bogged down working on getting the intake silencer box to work right. >Better stick to one crisis at a time... > >Richard Pike >MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > >do not archive > >At 05:03 PM 2/3/04 -0600, you wrote: > > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb > > > >Any one else modify their prop tips to resemble those on a Top Flite RC > >model prop? > >Interested to hear what the results were. > >jerb > >http://www.top-flite.com/accys/topq5000.html > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:09 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: an old wing From: ul15rhb@juno.com --> Kolb-List message posted by: ul15rhb@juno.com Paul and others, When I built my Firestar 17 years ago, I built it according to the plans I had been given (5-rib wing). I did, however, use a .035" leading edge tube rather than the .028". I also added three 3/8" braces from the spar to the LE in a "Z" fashion. I have done nothing to beef up the bowtip except replace the 1/4" brace tubes from the end of the spar to the corner of the tailing edge with 5/16". I also added another cross brace at the corner of the TE and cable tied it to the 5/16" tube. My Firestar has probably seen more wear and tear during open trailering and setups than most (400). I think this causes more wear than other high-time Firestars would see from air stress alone, not counting aerobatics (John H). It was this kind of stress that probably broke those 1/4" tubes that I replaced as my wings always rest on the ground during setup. They break at the sharp bend near the end of the spar and this will cause it to have a slight roll. If the plane flew hands off when you built it and now has a slight roll, this is most likely the problem (or if it had a slight roll and now flies straight). After a bird strike two years ago, I opened up the left wing and took a look inside. I saw black powder (sign of a loose rivet) at that brace. Couldn't miss it as the "black" was all over the inside of the fabric on the bottom underneath the loose rivet. I did not see anymore signs elsewhere. This Firestar has seen a lot of wing stress without doing anything other than fast pullups and wingovers. With the added strengthening that I have done, it is doing fine to the best of my knowledge. I might also say that I've always flown it 25 lbs over max gross weight of 535 lbs (pilot weight 200, plane 300, 11 gallons of fuel ~ 60 lbs) with a Rotax 447. I cannot add a larger engine. Flying with more power would naturally need more wing strength. Homer tried to design the Original Firestar staying within the Part 103 regulation. Vne is 80mph and this Firestar has seen at last 85. It's a good plane. Those bolt-together planes (ie Quicksilvers and others), would never last this long without the replacement of many tubes. The new Firestars all have 7-rib wings with more bracing. Paul's wing is built like bridge and should outlast him. Ralph Burlingame Original Firestar 17 years flying it On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:05:35 -0600 "Paul Petty" writes: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" > > Thanks Guys, I tried real hard to make the best wing I could. The > angle braces are not in my Kolbra plans. Not even the outboard 2. If > not for the list and John H bringing it up, I would not even have > had the 2 outboard braces! Yikes! It really pays to use all > available resources. > > pp > > do not archive > > > = > = > = > = > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:56:10 PM PST US From: "Paul Petty" Subject: Kolb-List: work table --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" Curtis, I am also a novice builder of a Kolbra and there are many different ways to build a work surface for the wings. After just completing my first wing I can offer this advise. I chose the saw horse method from all the data I collected. Main thing is to build the saw horses very sturdy and exactly the same. Second thing I picked up here on the list was to use liquid nails to glue the legs of the saw horses to the floor. However make sure that you have a very clean surface on the floor because my work area is very clean and after pounding away at different components the wood will break lose from the adhesive but still provide a socket if you will for the legs to sit in. Third I used a cheap laser level beam of light to make sure the wood horses stayed true and level. Funny how wood expands and contracts with drying and so forth. And I used spruce 2x4's expensive in this area. We plan to enter the aircraft building biz at some point and will build steel jigs to insure accuracy. Fourth I made mine 4' tall. Depending on how tall you are, I will make the next set 5' to make for a more comfortable working conditions while rolling around in a cheap Walmart office chair do all the underside drilling and riveting.I measure 5'11" tall. There are other methods for the wings. The wall, which I considered and may try on another airplane. However my background tends to make me build things level with the ground. Also I plan to make mods to my chair to have a place to store clecos and rivets ready at hand for the under side work. I use a shop apron with pockets that works ok for now. Also have a cart full of tools that rolls around. The main thing is that I like to have the wing in a fixed jig through the construction. And the saw horse method allows me to do this. Happy building and if there is anything I can pass down let me know........ Paul Petty Building Ms. Dixie Kolbra/912UL/Warp do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:08 PM PST US From: "Linda Rowe" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Balance Master --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Linda Rowe" Subject: Kolb-List: Balance Master > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike > > Anybody have any experience with using a Balance Master dynamic balancer on > the crank of a Rotax? > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > Richard, I have a B/M on the prop flange of my Mk-3s 2SI engine, I took it off once and noticed a little more vibration than with it installed, put it back on and seemed to feel an improvement. Figure I'll be leaving it on from now on. The one on the crank would probably help the same way. Dennis Rowe, PA ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:10 PM PST US From: "Christopher Armstrong" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Wing Mod Weights --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" Everyone/All, Very close Will, especially the "ground" part. Actually we did the outboard rib reinforcement because of hard landings! Hard landings to the point of gear bending and wing tip striking the ground. On even a fairly light strike, the upper rib tube would buckle and then it would be a big repair job. The angle reinforcement would help prevent damage with light strikes, and we felt was worth the extra weight. A determined individual could still do serious damage, but the angle did provided a larger no-damage window. Dennis So Dennis, do you feel that adding those braces to more then just the outboard rib makes sense? Do you feel that they improve the wing structurally for flight loads? I don't want to sound negative, stronger wings are fine... but I just don't like adding weight if it isn't required, or especially where it isn't doing you a bit of good. Topher ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:33 PM PST US From: "Richard Harris" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: work table --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Harris" However my background tends to make me build things level with the ground ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Petty" OK, Paul you got me with that one.. What kind of background? Richard ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:33 PM PST US From: "bryan green" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Balance Master --> Kolb-List message posted by: "bryan green" My 377 has Both of the old Balance masters and it runs smooth, but I haven't flown it without them. Bryan Green (Elgin SC) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Pike" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Balance Master > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike > > It does. I was hoping to learn about one that actually did something about > the vibration. My 532 didn't have one, & it was much smoother... > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > do not archive > > At 08:55 PM 2/4/04 -0500, you wrote: > > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Earl & Mim Zimmerman > > > >Richard Pike wrote: > > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike > > > > > > Anybody have any experience with using a Balance Master dynamic > > balancer on > > > the crank of a Rotax? > > > >Richard, > >If you have a newer 582 it may already have one installed from rotax. If > >you look on the parts breakdown for the magneto it is Ref.#16 part # > >965-497. -- Earl > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:07 PM PST US From: "bryan green" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: work table --> Kolb-List message posted by: "bryan green" One very well grounded. Do not archive Bryan Green (Elgin SC) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Harris" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: work table > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Harris" > > However my background tends to make me build things level with the ground > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Petty" > > OK, Paul you got me with that one.. What kind of background? > > Richard > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:02 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Fuel Octane --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > I don't know why the difference, the book says 87 octane, so that's what it > gets & it seems to run OK > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Richard/All: The way I understand octane is it is there for one thing only, to prevent detonation, which is hard on a four stroke and murder on a two stroke. Increased octane over and above what the engine requires for detonation prevention does not increase power. Correct me if I am wrong please. john h PS: But I have to agree, sometimes stuff makes us feel better whether it changes anything or not. Like an airplane that is freshly washed and cleaned up always flies better than it did dirty. :-) ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:39 PM PST US From: Timandjan@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: work table --> Kolb-List message posted by: Timandjan@aol.com Some things I did that were helpful were to build them fairly tall so you don't have to bend over to work on the wings, also the saw horses rather than a solid table were heflful so you can access the wing from underneath. I actually drilled anchors into the concrete floot and bolted them down. I also have used bondo and glued them down, Bondo is amazingly strong. For building the tails, ailerons etc, I found a hollow core door and set it on sawhorses, which worked great.nbsp;nbsp; I used hollow core cause for some of the fabricating I cut pieces out of the work surface, for instance when building the vertical stab, I cut a hole for the fuselage tube ring so it would lay flat as I fabricated. Take your time, build jigs to hold things and have fun. Tim ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:53 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: from class From: ul15rhb@juno.com --> Kolb-List message posted by: ul15rhb@juno.com Paul, Take another look at what the rule says: Q. Can someone with a valid state driver's license but who has been denied a FAA medical still fly as a sport pilot? A. Yes. As a sport pilot, per SFAR 89 Sections 15 and 17, as long as you have a current and valid U.S. driver's license. However, if your medically disqualifying condition also prohibits you from driving a car, then the answer would be NO, until such time as a licensed physician medically certifies you safe to drive. Ralph Original Firestar 17 years flying it On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 10:08:24 -0600 "Paul Petty" writes: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" > > Kolbers, > Another interesting note applies to the NPRM sport pilot rule. One > catch to the new rule that is not mentioned is that if a pilot fails > a medical, he or she will not be able to fly under the new rule. If > you fail a medical your done. If you do however let your current > medical expire then you can fly under the new rule. If you fail a > medical you will have then pass a medical and then let it expire to > go SP. > > > Take Care... > > pp > > > = > = > = > = > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:39 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: first-time builder --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike There have been several big discussions on various work tables on the list over the years, go to the archives at the bottom of this page, go to the kolb search, and type in "work table", you should find half a dozen different ways to do a good table. Same for compressors and rivet pullers. If you don't get the answers you need, or that works for your situation, come back and we'll see what we can do! Good luck and welcome aboard. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) do not archive At 04:04 PM 2/5/04 -0800, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: curtis groote > >I'm a novice soon to start on a Firestar. Your >thoughts on a table to build it on or to buy; someone >suggested getting a smarttool level - if so, 2 or 4 >feet?; suggestions on an air compressor to take care >of both riveting and spray painting. Thanks. > >__________________________________ >http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:31 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Sport Pilot --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > A. Yes. As a sport pilot, per SFAR 89 Sections 15 and 17, as long as you > have a current and valid U.S. driver's license. However, if your > medically disqualifying condition also prohibits you from driving a car, > then the answer would be NO, until such time as a licensed physician > medically certifies you safe to drive. > > Ralph Ralph/All: Eric Tucker passed this information that he personally received from the FAA as part of the workgroup. The above is what most folks think is the way it will work. However, according to Eric, it does not work that way. If you have a good medical, go in to have it renewed and flunk it, you are out. No fly Sport Pilot. However, if you have a good medical, know you probably have something that would preclude passing another Class III or higher medical, do not go to a flight surgeon, let it expire, then you can do the Sport Pilot thing with a valid drivers license. If you don't have anything to preclude passing a Class III or higher, allow it to expire, you are good to go with Sport Pilot if you have a valid drivers license. Of course, Eric also told us this has not been approved in final form. Still has to go before OMB or some such. If I have any doubt in my mind that I may not be able to pass my next Class III, I am not going to get it renewed until after the final on Sport Pilot. We shall have to wait and see what transpires. I have not kept up with Sport Pilot. Don't claim to know anything about it. Only repeating what I heard Eric Tucker present in class the other day. Take care, john h john h ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:10 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Wing Mod Weights --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > strike, the upper rib tube would buckle and then it would be a big repair > job. The angle reinforcement would help prevent damage with light strikes, > and we felt was worth the extra weight. A determined individual could still > do serious damage, but the angle did provided a larger no-damage window. > > Dennis Dennis/All: When I broke my landing gear at Muncho Lake, BC, 1 July 2000, I was still moving at a good clip after the gear leg and gear leg mount was wiped off the fuselage. The load of the aircraft, which was probably around 1100 lbs at the time, was carried by the right main gear and the left wing tip. When it was all over, it was the outboard rib aft of the main spar that was sharing all that load with the right main gear. The rib failed between on top over the main spar where it buckled. The remainder of the rib was in good shape. The second rib next to the OB rib was pushed up on slightly as the result of the trailing edge tube pushing up on it. When I repaired the wing, I replaced the OB rib, was able to pull the 2d rib back into position. I replaced the bowtip from mid point to the trailing edge, all straight tube. Replaced the trailing edge tube back to the mid point between 2d and 3d rib. Did the same thing for the OB section of the aileron. That was the extent of damage and hard replacement and repair. Had the ribs not had the aluminum angle reinforcements, that includes the first four OB ribs, I am sure I would have been into much more material repair and replacement, possibly the main spar. Had that happened, i would have scrapped the left wing and started from scratch. Take care, john h PS: Thanks for the idea for the ribs from years past. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:00 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: What's Status on Prop Tip Mod --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike Eh? What's that ye say, Sonny? Quit mumbling, speak up! Actually I finally finished working on my intake silencer box yesterday and it is as done as it's going to get. It is a marginal success. I can notice a slight but real improvement when I am flying the airplane, but my wife can't tell any difference at all when I am taking off at full throttle or flying past at cruise. But that makes it worth the trouble, since I'm the one that has to listen to it the longest. The addition of the silencer box knocks 75 rpm off full throttle climb outs, and drops 75 degrees off the egt at full and cruise throttle settings. Which currently has the egt almost exactly where it is supposed to be. Since I was planning to increase the main jet size to the next bigger anyway, and also either raise the needle or go the next bigger needle jet anyway due to the egt getting a bit too high in this dense winter air, instead I will just leave the silencer box on during the winter and decide if I need to take it off when the temps warm back up. I got one of those airstrips that is sort of demanding during takeoff at gross on really hot days, & I may want that 75 rpm back... Since it is supposed to rain all day tomorrow, maybe I will spend the day adding pictures of the mini-project to the web page. If it gets done, will let you know. By throwing the funnel at you... Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) do not archive At 06:19 PM 2/5/04 -0600, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb > >Yep smart move - one your comfortable see if you can do a back to back >flight and compare noise and performance. You being a old folk and tone >deaf, you need to take the refueling funnel with you to use as a hearing >aid. I know I would, what'ya say? All I hear is that weed wacker running >all the time. >jerry > >At 09:20 PM 2/3/04 -0500, you wrote: > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike > > > >Friend of mine gave me a busted Ivo to practice grinding on, but am still > >bogged down working on getting the intake silencer box to work right. > >Better stick to one crisis at a time... > > > >Richard Pike > >MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > > >do not archive > > > >At 05:03 PM 2/3/04 -0600, you wrote: > > > > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb > > > > > >Any one else modify their prop tips to resemble those on a Top Flite RC > > >model prop? > > >Interested to hear what the results were. > > >jerb > > >http://www.top-flite.com/accys/topq5000.html > > > > > > > > > > > >