Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:10 AM - Re: work table (Paul Petty)
2. 08:44 AM - Re: work table (Dale Sellers)
3. 09:17 AM - (no subject) (Terry)
4. 09:17 AM - Re: work table (Larry Bourne)
5. 09:18 AM - Silencer box (Richard Pike)
6. 09:21 AM - Re: Northeast Fly-in (Terry)
7. 10:16 AM - Re: work table (Bob Bean)
8. 10:29 AM - Advice? Here? (Richard Pike)
9. 10:38 AM - Re: Silencer box (Jack & Louise Hart)
10. 10:38 AM - Re: work table (Denny Rowe)
11. 10:52 AM - taken wrong (Paul Petty)
12. 10:59 AM - Re: work table (Don Gherardini)
13. 11:00 AM - A gear box & adapter (Richard Pike)
14. 11:13 AM - Re: taken wrong (Larry Bourne)
15. 02:00 PM - Re: first-time builder (Kirby Dennis Contr ASC/TM)
16. 02:45 PM - Re: first-time builder (TAILDRAGGER503@aol.com)
17. 03:14 PM - allright allready (Paul Petty)
18. 03:20 PM - Re: taken wrong (Dennis Souder)
19. 04:40 PM - Re: Silencer box (Thom Riddle)
20. 04:41 PM - Re: Silencer box (Terry)
21. 05:34 PM - Re: allright allready (Russ Kinne)
22. 05:48 PM - Re: taken wrong (wiserguy)
23. 06:08 PM - Re: taken wrong (bryan green)
24. 06:13 PM - Re: taken wrong (Duncan McBride)
25. 06:25 PM - Re: taken wrong (CRAIG M NELSON)
26. 06:28 PM - Noisy prop (Bill Vincent)
27. 06:41 PM - Re: mod weight (garvelink)
28. 06:42 PM - Re: Wing Mod Weights (garvelink)
29. 07:51 PM - Weight & Balance on Firestar II (Vic)
30. 08:58 PM - Re: Wing Mod Weights (Dennis Souder)
31. 09:10 PM - Re: Noisy prop (Richard Pike)
32. 09:27 PM - Re: Silencer box (Richard Pike)
33. 09:37 PM - Re: Silencer box (Richard Pike)
34. 09:52 PM - Re: Wing Mod Weights (garvelink)
35. 09:55 PM - Re: Wing Mod Weights (Richard Pike)
36. 10:39 PM - Re: Wing Mod Weights (Christopher Armstrong)
Message 1
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required 4.6, BAYES_00 -4.90)
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
Richard,
Guess I should have explained that in more detail. In my younger years I
worked for my uncles and cousins who were brick layers. Also worked for
Brown & Root construction company as a carpenter. Things I build tend to
work out better for me when I lay them flat on the ground then stand them up
vs. trying to say stick frame a wall or a steel frame for an engine stand.
Same goes for this airplane wing. I had considered the 2x4 wall method by
Jack Hart and at first it seamed like a good idea but knowing me and having
to either use a step ladder or stand on my head the saw horses looked to be
the best all around method. I have been building things all my life of near
44 years. It all started with a Gilbert electric set at the age of 4. I
have built go-carts,motorcycles,street rods,boats and 3 houses. Also aided
in the construction of a 70 million dollar pulp mill.If the seasons keep
changing it looks like I will be adding snowmobiles to my resume. And after
all of this still vertically challenged.
Sorry, I did not intend to come off as a experienced aircraft builder. Just
trying to get myself into the Redneck hall of fame!
Since I have no real good advice to offer to anyone here on the Matronics
list, this shall be my final post. It has been a pleasure to have met you
all and I cannot thank you enough for your great advice and ideas.
God Bless
pp
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Harris" <rharris@magnolia-net.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: work table
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Harris"
<rharris@magnolia-net.com>
>
> However my background tends to make me build things level with the ground
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Petty" <Lynnp@c-gate.net>
>
> OK, Paul you got me with that one.. What kind of background?
>
> Richard
>
>
Message 2
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dale Sellers" <dsel1@bellsouth.net>
Well guys another one is gone! Satisfied
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: work table
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
>
> Richard,
> Guess I should have explained that in more detail. In my younger years I
> worked for my uncles and cousins who were brick layers. Also worked for
> Brown & Root construction company as a carpenter. Things I build tend to
> work out better for me when I lay them flat on the ground then stand them
up
> vs. trying to say stick frame a wall or a steel frame for an engine stand.
> Same goes for this airplane wing. I had considered the 2x4 wall method by
> Jack Hart and at first it seamed like a good idea but knowing me and
having
> to either use a step ladder or stand on my head the saw horses looked to
be
> the best all around method. I have been building things all my life of
near
> 44 years. It all started with a Gilbert electric set at the age of 4. I
> have built go-carts,motorcycles,street rods,boats and 3 houses. Also aided
> in the construction of a 70 million dollar pulp mill.If the seasons keep
> changing it looks like I will be adding snowmobiles to my resume. And
after
> all of this still vertically challenged.
> Sorry, I did not intend to come off as a experienced aircraft builder.
Just
> trying to get myself into the Redneck hall of fame!
>
> Since I have no real good advice to offer to anyone here on the Matronics
> list, this shall be my final post. It has been a pleasure to have met you
> all and I cannot thank you enough for your great advice and ideas.
>
> God Bless
> pp
>
> do not archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Harris" <rharris@magnolia-net.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: work table
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Harris"
> <rharris@magnolia-net.com>
> >
> > However my background tends to make me build things level with the
ground
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul Petty" <Lynnp@c-gate.net>
> >
> > OK, Paul you got me with that one.. What kind of background?
> >
> > Richard
> >
> >
>
>
Message 3
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Terry <tkrolfe@usadatanet.net>
Richard,
Thanks for posting the url for Top-Flight.com and showing the gang the
tip shape that I put on my Tennessee prop. Hopefully this will end
some of the confusion as to what I did!
What did you construct your intake silencer out of? I too am
considering making my own before I pony up the cost of the Rotax
model. Form you post I take it it wasn't as effective as you had
expected. Any changes you might make if you were to do it again? Can
you post pics?
Thanks,
Terry - FireFly #95
Message 4
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
What do you mean, "my final post ??" Many people, including myself, have
been thoroughly enjoying your progress, and some of your ideas are very
good. Don't let a comment put you off ! ! ! For myself, I didn't think it
was serious, anyway, just kind of a dig. You know I've taken a good share
of those myself in good humor. Hang in there, Paul, and stick with us.
Your Buddy Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: work table
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
>
> Richard,
> Guess I should have explained that in more detail. In my younger years I
> worked for my uncles and cousins who were brick layers. Also worked for
> Brown & Root construction company as a carpenter. Things I build tend to
> work out better for me when I lay them flat on the ground then stand them
up
> vs. trying to say stick frame a wall or a steel frame for an engine stand.
> Same goes for this airplane wing. I had considered the 2x4 wall method by
> Jack Hart and at first it seamed like a good idea but knowing me and
having
> to either use a step ladder or stand on my head the saw horses looked to
be
> the best all around method. I have been building things all my life of
near
> 44 years. It all started with a Gilbert electric set at the age of 4. I
> have built go-carts,motorcycles,street rods,boats and 3 houses. Also aided
> in the construction of a 70 million dollar pulp mill.If the seasons keep
> changing it looks like I will be adding snowmobiles to my resume. And
after
> all of this still vertically challenged.
> Sorry, I did not intend to come off as a experienced aircraft builder.
Just
> trying to get myself into the Redneck hall of fame!
>
> Since I have no real good advice to offer to anyone here on the Matronics
> list, this shall be my final post. It has been a pleasure to have met you
> all and I cannot thank you enough for your great advice and ideas.
>
> God Bless
> pp
>
> do not archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Harris" <rharris@magnolia-net.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: work table
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Harris"
> <rharris@magnolia-net.com>
> >
> > However my background tends to make me build things level with the
ground
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul Petty" <Lynnp@c-gate.net>
> >
> > OK, Paul you got me with that one.. What kind of background?
> >
> > Richard
> >
> >
>
>
Message 5
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
Got the silencer box project posted to the web page,
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg15.html
If anybody has any constructive suggestions,
("constructive" being the operative word, <grin>)
I am open to suggestions to make it better.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Northeast Fly-in |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Terry <tkrolfe@usadatanet.net>
Bruce n' Kathy wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bruce n' Kathy" <n3nrr@erols.com>
>
> Hi and I live 55 miles south of Shreveport north. Our club CALF Capital
> Area Light Flyers WWW.USUA4.org, and a few other clubs (Mason dixion
> etc) Help sponosr the event. If in fact the group of you decide to come
> on up,over,down, IT would be nice to coordinaate with our club and
> othersso we may have things kindda pre arragned and make the welcoming
> a pleasant one, and also let the folks of all the clubs around and John
> know so that he may plan according.
> --
> Bruce
> Sabre trike
> U.S. Not yet soloed
> PPC.
> Thurmont, md
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
Bruce,
Have contacted Matt Lewbecker, Pres. of Mason-Dixon UL Club and he is
enthusiastic for us to come. Next I'm gong to contact John Shreve at
Footlight Ranch to make arrangements with him and to ask about protocol for GA
to fly in.
Hope this addresses you concerns!
Terry - FireFly #95
Do Not Archive
Message 7
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
Some guys aren't as thick-skinned as me and Biglar...guess we should post
a disclaimer for new Kolbers to inform them of our flaming responses.
Paul P. seemed like a good ambitious fellah and an asset to the list.
Disagreement can be accomplished without ill will, give it another try.
-BB, no good, hard-bitten yankee heathern do not archive
Dale Sellers wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dale Sellers" <dsel1@bellsouth.net>
>
>Well guys another one is gone! Satisfied
>
>do not archive
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: work table
>
>
>
>
>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
>>
>>Richard,
>>Guess I should have explained that in more detail. In my younger years I
>>worked for my uncles and cousins who were brick layers. Also worked for
>>Brown & Root construction company as a carpenter. Things I build tend to
>>work out better for me when I lay them flat on the ground then stand them
>>
>>
>up
>
>
>>vs. trying to say stick frame a wall or a steel frame for an engine stand.
>>Same goes for this airplane wing. I had considered the 2x4 wall method by
>>Jack Hart and at first it seamed like a good idea but knowing me and
>>
>>
>having
>
>
>>to either use a step ladder or stand on my head the saw horses looked to
>>
>>
>be
>
>
>>the best all around method. I have been building things all my life of
>>
>>
>near
>
>
>>44 years. It all started with a Gilbert electric set at the age of 4. I
>>have built go-carts,motorcycles,street rods,boats and 3 houses. Also aided
>>in the construction of a 70 million dollar pulp mill.If the seasons keep
>>changing it looks like I will be adding snowmobiles to my resume. And
>>
>>
>after
>
>
>>all of this still vertically challenged.
>>Sorry, I did not intend to come off as a experienced aircraft builder.
>>
>>
>Just
>
>
>>trying to get myself into the Redneck hall of fame!
>>
>>Since I have no real good advice to offer to anyone here on the Matronics
>>list, this shall be my final post. It has been a pleasure to have met you
>>all and I cannot thank you enough for your great advice and ideas.
>>
>>God Bless
>>pp
>>
>>do not archive
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Richard Harris" <rharris@magnolia-net.com>
>>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com
>>
>>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: work table
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Harris"
>>>
>>>
>><rharris@magnolia-net.com>
>>
>>
>>>However my background tends to make me build things level with the
>>>
>>>
>ground
>
>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Paul Petty" <Lynnp@c-gate.net>
>>>
>>>OK, Paul you got me with that one.. What kind of background?
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
Advice? Only a small portion of what happens on this list has anything to
do with advice, the rest of it is having fun jerking each other around and
planning when we might be able to run across each other and see what we
have been doing with our airplanes. Not to mention wasting a lot of time
fooling around on the computer, but that's going to happen anyway, might as
well enjoy it by talking about Kolbs.
Anyway, "Yall hurry back now, y'hear?"
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 10:09 AM 2/6/04 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
><snip>
>Since I have no real good advice to offer to anyone here on the Matronics
>list, this shall be my final post. It has been a pleasure to have met you
>all and I cannot thank you enough for your great advice and ideas.
>
>God Bless
>pp
>
>do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Silencer box |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
At 12:18 PM 2/6/04 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
>
>Got the silencer box project posted to the web page,
>http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg15.html
>
>If anybody has any constructive suggestions,
>("constructive" being the operative word, <grin>)
>I am open to suggestions to make it better.
>
>Richard Pike
>MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>do not archive
>
Richard,
You might want to consider running a tube from the silencer air inlet to some where
below the wing. It may give you a little boost in air pressure. In trying
to come up with a way to control air fuel mixture, I have taken some pressure
data from the FireFly and I discovered that the static air pressure at carburetor
height is about 2 inches of water less than below the wing at 55 mph.
If you turn the tube inlet into the air stream, you can get dynamic pressure on
top of the static pressure difference. This pressure difference may help you
get back the air flow that you believe that you have lost.
To check this out, I am building a right angle elbow air flow insert to mount on
the Bing in the place of the filter. In my case I am going to run a flexible
one inch ID tube to the air filter that is going to be suspended below the wing.
In making the elbow, I have exposed the percolation vent so that I can change
pressures to see if it will effect air fuel ratio while flying. I hope
to finish up the elbow today.
Still waiting for weather to clear and snow & ice to melt so I can run the lowered
thrust line experiment with a 56 inch IVO prop. Experimentation is fun, but
only if you get to fly once in a while. We got six inches of snow yesterday.
Back to the shop.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 10
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
>
> What do you mean, "my final post ??" Many people, including myself, have
> been thoroughly enjoying your progress, and some of your ideas are very
> good. Don't let a comment put you off ! ! ! For myself, I didn't think
it
> was serious, anyway, just kind of a dig. You know I've taken a good share
> of those myself in good humor. Hang in there, Paul, and stick with us.
> Your Buddy Lar.
>
> Larry Bourne
> Palm Springs, CA
> Building Kolb Mk III
> N78LB Vamoose
> www.gogittum.com
I second this opinion, please reconsider Paul, you are a vital part of this
forum.
Dennis Rowe
Message 11
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
Guys, I have chosen to just sit back and read the post rather than try and interact.
This is because I don't feel that really have any good data to pass along.
Perhaps in a few years after I have some building under my belt I can join
in with some innovations. This I am doing for the above reason only. Not because
of anything anyone has said and especially what bro Pike and the other guy
said. I can take a jab as well as the next guy. Please understand this is the
only reason. My father always told me "Son you will learn a h*** of a lot more
listening than you will talking" So I plan to do just that.
Sorry for the misleading post<------ see what I mean.
pp
in lurk mode
do not archive
Message 12
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Paul....Hmmm.....I hope it aint gonna be your final post..I am enjoying
watching your building progress, I think your work is good!
let me tell ya how I veiw the membership of this list Paul.
It is Kinda like sitting in on a large card game....Dealers choice....and
its a 7 card game..bet every card...
Every question you ask of the members is like a bet....and every answer is
like a card......
You are gonna get some good cards...and some bad ones too maybe...so dont
worry about em ...you need em all so you can choose the hand ya want to
play. Just like poker...you keep the answers you want in your hand...and ya
toss the ones ya dont...
Stay in the game pard....and keep betting..cause ya never know when you are
gonna draw an ACE!.
Don Gherardini
Sales / Engineering dept.
American Honda Engines
Power Equipment Company
CortLand, Illinois
800-626-7326
Message 13
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| Subject: | A gear box & adapter |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
I have an adaptor plate to mount a Rotax A-box to a provision 4 engine, and
the back half of a Rotax A-box. I am going to put them on ebay next week
unless some one on the list wants them, in which case I'll make you a deal.
Contact me off list.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
Message 14
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
I, for one, am sorry to hear this. Your posts have had a freshness and
enthusiasm that've been a real pleasure to read. I hope you'll re-consider,
and keep us up to date on your progress. Did you start your 2nd wing yet ??
Lar. Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: taken wrong
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
>
> Guys, I have chosen to just sit back and read the post rather than try and
interact. This is because I don't feel that really have any good data to
pass along. Perhaps in a few years after I have some building under my belt
I can join in with some innovations. This I am doing for the above reason
only. Not because of anything anyone has said and especially what bro Pike
and the other guy said. I can take a jab as well as the next guy. Please
understand this is the only reason. My father always told me "Son you will
learn a h*** of a lot more listening than you will talking" So I plan to do
just that.
>
> Sorry for the misleading post<------ see what I mean.
>
> pp
> in lurk mode
> do not archive
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: first-time builder |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr ASC/TM <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
<< suggestions on an air compressor to take care
of both riveting and spray painting. Thanks. >>
Curtis -
You do not need an air compressor to do your riveting.
A good-quality hand rivet puller will do the job just fine, since they're
all 1/8th inch rivets. (With the exception of about half a dozen 3/16th
rivets, which your hand-powered tool can also handle.)
Many Kolb builders have used air-driven riveting tools to build their
planes, and there is no doubt it makes the job a bit easier. But if you
have the strength of an average man's handshake, you don't need the
compressor. Bonus: When you are finished, you'll have the strength of a
strong man's handshake!
Dennis Kirby
Mark-3, all 3000 rivets hand-squeezed in
Cedar Crest, NM
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: first-time builder |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: TAILDRAGGER503@aol.com
A two foot level is fine,you can always extend it with a straight edge of any
lenth.
A band saw with a metal cutting blade is nice for cutting tubes.
A hand riveter with a adjusting head.
A table vise.
I mounted a potable belt sander to my shop table.(works great)
A punch and clecos makes building easyer.
Dave Snyder
Building 2001 FSII
Message 17
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| Subject: | allright allready |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
Kolbers, HOLY COW!!! I have never in my life seen so many responses to one tiny
post! I was not planning on leaving the list. Just chill out and watch for a
while. I really didn't think I had anything worth sharing. Guess once again I
was wrong. Well wing 2 begins tonight. I don't know who's idea it was about the
body filler or Bon doe for sticking the legs of the saw horses but thank you!!!
I went home at lunch and mixed up some (sorta hot) and they were like concrete
before I left to come back to work. The liquid nails worked pretty good but
came lose.
Sorry to be the buzz killer of the day. Didn't think anyone would even notice.
You are a great bunch of guys and I thank you.
It's 5:15pm and I get off at 5:30 and make a bee line for the shop.
pp
do not archive
Message 18
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Souder" <flykolb@pa.net>
Paul,
Sorry to differ with you, but I disagree - you do have good data to pass
along. You posts on the Rotax repair school were very interesting - more
interesting reading that anything I have read for awhile on this list. Plus
I have enjoyed following the post on the aluminum angles and I do have a
comment or two when I have more than a couple minutes to gather my thoughts.
You have very relevant and helpful input!
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: taken wrong
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
>
> Guys, I have chosen to just sit back and read the post rather than try and
interact. This is because I don't feel that really have any good data to
pass along. Perhaps in a few years after I have some building under my belt
I can join in with some innovations. This I am doing for the above reason
only. Not because of anything anyone has said and especially what bro Pike
and the other guy said. I can take a jab as well as the next guy. Please
understand this is the only reason. My father always told me "Son you will
learn a h*** of a lot more listening than you will talking" So I plan to do
just that.
>
> Sorry for the misleading post<------ see what I mean.
>
> pp
> in lurk mode
> do not archive
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Silencer box |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
Gents,
Back in the dark ages when I flew the old Mooneys of the '60s they had a neat "poor
man's supercharger" which consisted of a non-filtered ram-air control. It
was only used in cruise since this source by-passed the air-filter. By simply
pulling a cable control in the cockpit the carb would receive direct ram air
which generally added from 1 - 2 " of manifold pressure and resulted in an extra
5mph cruise at normal cruise settings. It won't a whole lot considering the
airplane cruised around 160-165 mph anyway but it was free!
Mr. Hart's idea sounds like a very good one to me, just don't by-pass the air filter...down
at our low and slow altitudes your engine could easily ingest something
it shouldn't.
Thom in Buffalo
do not archive
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Silencer box |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Terry <tkrolfe@usadatanet.net>
Richard Pike wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
>
> Got the silencer box project posted to the web page,
> http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg15.html
>
> If anybody has any constructive suggestions,
> ("constructive" being the operative word, <grin>)
> I am open to suggestions to make it better.
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
Richard,
Nice job on the construction of your intake silencer!!! Thanks for posting
the pictures. Gives me ideas of how I might try to make one.
As far as I understand the science behind the silencing, it is the ability to
divide the sound up into two channels that can be made out of phase with each
other, thereby canceling each other out. That's why I believe you can observe
two ports exiting the plastic bottle of the Rotax model. I suspect they are
of different length in side the bottle which would cause them to be out of
phase with each other canceling each other out. Same as was observed in the
silencer on the air-conditioning unit. My problem is that I don't have the
math or data to know how to go about doing this other then guess work. Maybe
someone else could supply the data!!!
On your model you have diverted the sound around a curved path, but it doesn't
cancel any of the pulses. Also the fabric sides will transmit the sound like
a drum to the out side if I understand your construction correctly. Still by
diverting the intake as you have done will get some reduction in noise.
Wish I could cut apart a Rotax silencer to be able to measure the tubes
inside. But, then again that would be piracy, I guess. Also wish I knew of a
sound engineer to consult with!!!!
Hope you don't take offense to my comments! Only thinking out loud without
having the expertise to back up any thing I said. Thanks again for sharing.
Terry - FireFly #95
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: allright allready |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Russ Kinne <kinnepix@earthlink.net>
on 2/6/04 6:14 PM, Paul Petty at lynnp@c-gate.net wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
>
> Kolbers, HOLY COW!!! I have never in my life seen so many responses to one
> tiny post! I was not planning on leaving the list. Just chill out and watch
> for a while. I really didn't think I had anything worth sharing. Guess once
> again I was wrong. Well wing 2 begins tonight. I don't know who's idea it was
> about the body filler or Bon doe for sticking the legs of the saw horses but
> thank you!!! I went home at lunch and mixed up some (sorta hot) and they were
> like concrete before I left to come back to work. The liquid nails worked
> pretty good but came lose.
> Sorry to be the buzz killer of the day. Didn't think anyone would even notice.
> You are a great bunch of guys and I thank you.
> It's 5:15pm and I get off at 5:30 and make a bee line for the shop.
>
> pp
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
YOU are a great guy -- that's why the bunch is a bunch of guys are great
guys
Message 22
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "wiserguy" <wiserguy@comcast.net>
Paul,
Everything is cool, I'm with ya man, but this list is more than just
experienced builders talking to one another, it's also about new friendships
and just plain fun. Please do us future builders a favor and keep us
updated on those great pics you been sending, Okay!
Bob Dalton
(super lurker)
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: taken wrong
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
>
> Guys, I have chosen to just sit back and read the post rather than try and
interact. This is because I don't feel that really have any good data to
pass along. Perhaps in a few years after I have some building under my belt
I can join in with some innovations. This I am doing for the above reason
only. Not because of anything anyone has said and especially what bro Pike
and the other guy said. I can take a jab as well as the next guy. Please
understand this is the only reason. My father always told me "Son you will
learn a h*** of a lot more listening than you will talking" So I plan to do
just that.
>
> Sorry for the misleading post<------ see what I mean.
>
> pp
> in lurk mode
> do not archive
>
>
Message 23
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "bryan green" <lgreen1@sc.rr.com>
Paul I agree with the other guys I've been following your progress with envy
and looking forward to reading your post. With this e-mail thing sometime
it's hard to tell when a guy is trying to make a friendly joke and it
doesn't come across right.
If you have more detailed pictures of the wing mods you made could you
send them ta me off list? I am trying to rebuild my Original Firestar and
would like to maybe incorporate them at some point.
On another note I should be going to a family reunion in Mobile on the
21st of this month and thought I might come half way on the 19th, stay in
Elmore and try to visit you and John Hauck on the 20th if y'all will be at
home and agreeable, let me know. Do not archive.
Bryan Green (Elgin SC)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: taken wrong
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
>
> Guys, I have chosen to just sit back and read the post rather than try and
interact. This is because I don't feel that really have any good data to
pass along. Perhaps in a few years after I have some building under my belt
I can join in with some innovations. This I am doing for the above reason
only. Not because of anything anyone has said and especially what bro Pike
and the other guy said. I can take a jab as well as the next guy. Please
understand this is the only reason. My father always told me "Son you will
learn a h*** of a lot more listening than you will talking" So I plan to do
just that.
>
> Sorry for the misleading post<------ see what I mean.
>
> pp
> in lurk mode
> do not archive
>
>
Message 24
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride@comcast.net>
Oh, ok. But believe me, sooner than you know, one of us will paste
something up here that just makes your fingers twitch to save a fellow
builder the agony you went through... when that happens just go for it.
The good ideas float to the top, kind of like pond scum. Anybody can have
one.
Best idea I ever had, nobody said a word. I'm figuring their all still
speechless. someday I'll post it again, when the spirit moves me.
Heading out to the Charlotte County Flying Expo tomorrow. I happened to
drive by the Avon Park airfield today and there was a B-17 sitting by one of
the hangars. If I hadn't been on business I would have pulled in just to
stand next to it for a while. I sure hope it's at PGD tomorrow. If it is
I'll take some pictures.
Please observe I've posted an entire note and haven't gloated once about the
fine weather down here in South Florida. I know all you guys are working
hard in your drafty workshops so your plane will be a real showpiece come
Spring. Pity us down here, we just thrash our poor craft all year long, and
they never get the care those pampered northern birds do.......;<) D.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: taken wrong
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
>
> Guys, I have chosen to just sit back and read the post rather than try and
interact. This is because I don't feel that really have any good data to
pass along. Perhaps in a few years after I have some building under my belt
I can join in with some innovations. This I am doing for the above reason
only. Not because of anything anyone has said and especially what bro Pike
and the other guy said. I can take a jab as well as the next guy. Please
understand this is the only reason. My father always told me "Son you will
learn a h*** of a lot more listening than you will talking" So I plan to do
just that.
>
> Sorry for the misleading post<------ see what I mean.
>
> pp
> in lurk mode
> do not archive
>
>
Message 25
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "CRAIG M NELSON" <vitalfx0@msn.com>
----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: Kolb-List:pp taken wrong
DO NOT ARCHIVE DO NOT ARCHIVE DO NOT ARCHIVE DO NOT ARCHIVE DO NOT ARCHIVE DO NOT
ARCHIVE
pp
just a note to tell you, you have inspired me with your progress and it is fun
to see how builders make the some aircraft with their background and knoledge.
thanks for sharing some of yours. I too have built houses, boats, hot rods and
sandrails, composit helicopter blades, fuseladges and 1/3 scale rc aircraft
from scratch. however be vearrey crwaful mot to misspall aeny worids or youwll
catch h---l fer that two. heaven forbed you come up with anny ideas mot apprived
bu the leist -----dont ferget to do not archeivetheres h--l fer that tue
uncle craig
MKIIIex 192uls warp
Arizona
DO NOT ARCHIVE DO NOT ARCHIVE DO NOT ARCHIVE DO NOT ARCHIOVE DO NOT ARCHIVE DO
NOT ARCHIVE
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
>
> Guys, I have chosen to just sit back and read the post rather than try and
interact. This is because I don't feel that really have any good data to
> pp
> in lurk mode
> do not archive
>
>
Message 26
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Vincent <emailbill@chartermi.net>
Hi gang
My Rotax 503 with a 68 inch 3 blade prop is very noisy when I fly......
.......but the same the engine that is on my friends Kit Fox, where the
engine is out in front, is extremely quiet !
I think most of the noise is coming from the prop being so close to back
of the wing and the exhaust blowing into the prop.
I am curious if Trikes are little quieter for this reason.
Bill Vincent
Firestar II
Upper Peninsula of Michigan
Do Not Archive
Message 27
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "garvelink" <link@cdc.net>
Don,
What about the Ultrastar? do you know if there have been any structural
failures?
SRGLINK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: mod weight
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
>
> HIya Gang.....that rob mod that Paul did...it is described zactly the same
> in my FireFly Builders manual...and required on the outboard ribs.
> The Logic certainly makes sense to me, and although not mentioned in the
> plans...I bet is serves 2 problems that could occour.
>
> 1st is the known aileron flutter occurance...
> Control surface flutter is as often not induced by a occilating flex
between
> the control surface and the attachment structure.(not just the air passing
> to fast over both). If you build a Kolb wing, as you are finished but just
> before you add the prescribed angles, you can lift the trailing edge at
the
> tip very slightly..or anywhere around the bow, and it will rise up before
> the spar begins to rise....I measured the "flex" in my wing before the
> addition of the angles and it was 3/8 of an inch on the trailing
edge...and
> slightly more at the center of the bow tip.
>
> As I have been exposed to control surface flutter twice previously in my
> life...this disturbed me greatly..(read that as scared the living chit
outta
> me)...Not in a Kolb...but even after 20 years...everytime a rudder or an
> aileron bounces in a thermal....I get the puckers....
>
> So after installing the prescribed angles....this flex was reduced...not
> completely...but significantly... After myself and 2 of my A&P friends
were
> standing around this structure on my bench...the general opinion was
another
> rib was needed between the Bow area ...which was a greater span than the
> ribs spacing. So I added a rib...and a tad more bow stiffining structure.
> The goal was to get the wing to be able to be lifted at the trailing edge,
> and at the bow...with no flex. we accomplished that. This also preserved
the
> airfoil profile out a little further towards the tip..with the resulting
> taper that is so common to a Kolb wing reduced.
>
> I might add that the 2 compadres of mine...both fellow college buds from
> Spartan, have been in the AC industry since we got out of school. 1 went
to
> work at McDonnel-Douglas...and spent 10 years building F-4s.then on to the
> american airlines airframe overhaul center in Tulsa...and the other went
to
> work for Fairchild building Metroliners till the plant closed. These 2
> fellas know more about control surface building and rigging than I can
ever
> hope to...so their advice was heeded...I should give some credit
> here...Cheif Bob( I still call the old F-4 Crew Cheif that) is the
> Metroliner man...and he insisted that He be here when the controls were
> rigged...even tho he lives several hundred miles away...he made me promise
> to let him do it. Well he has never rigged a Kolb...but he came up and
told
> me to sit my but down over there and watch, and he did it. When I flew the
> first flight...no trim was needed, and no adjustments..it flew straight as
a
> string!
>
> .Then there was that other fella who wore out a firestar...and explained
to
> me just how the wing failed...I paid alot of attention to him also.
>
> I think they all would approve of your wing Paul.
>
> Don Gherardini
> Sales / Engineering dept.
> American Honda Engines
> Power Equipment Company
> CortLand, Illinois
> 800-626-7326
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Mod Weights |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "garvelink" <link@cdc.net>
dennis, is this a problem with the ultrastar and is there a mod for the drag
strut to make it stronger?
SRGLINK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Souder" <flykolb@pa.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Wing Mod Weights
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Souder" <flykolb@pa.net>
>
> Everyone/All,
>
> Very close Will, especially the "ground" part. Actually we did the
outboard
> rib reinforcement because of hard landings! Hard landings to the point of
> gear bending and wing tip striking the ground. On even a fairly light
> strike, the upper rib tube would buckle and then it would be a big repair
> job. The angle reinforcement would help prevent damage with light
strikes,
> and we felt was worth the extra weight. A determined individual could
still
> do serious damage, but the angle did provided a larger no-damage window.
>
> Dennis
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <WillUribe@aol.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Wing Mod Weights
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: WillUribe@aol.com
> >
> > Greetings everyone,
> > I would like to add, the rib mod had nothing to do with flight
operations
> but
> > was needed for ground handling. If I recall the installation of
aluminum
> > angles on the outboard rib of each wing was recommended if you were
going
> to fold
> > the wings often. I guess handling the wings from the wing bow put undo
> > strain on those ribs. I installed them on my FireStar just in case I had
> to fold
> > and unfold the wings when I wanted to go flying.
> >
> > http://members.aol.com/willuribe/142.jpg
> > http://members.aol.com/willuribe/143.jpg
> >
> > Regards,
> > Will Uribe
> > El Paso, TX
> > FireStar II N4GU
> > C-172 N2506U
> > http://home.elp.rr.com/airplane/
> > http://members.aol.com/talinamorenop/
> > do not archive
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck
> > To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Kolb-List: Wing Mod Weights
> >
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> >
> > Hi Gng:
> >
> > I don't take credit for the rib mod.
> >
> > Seems the rib mod, using 1/2" and 3/4" aluminum angle to beef up
outboard
> > ribs, was developed by Old Kolb Company, either Homer Kolb or Dennis
> Souder,
> > or both.
> >
> >
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Weight & Balance on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Vic" <vicw@vcn.com>
I need to update my weight and balance on my Firestar II but I don't have my
plans with me. Can someone supply me with the measurement for leveling the
plane. What I am looking for is the number of inches from the leading edge
to the level.
Vic
Do Not Archive
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Mod Weights |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Souder" <flykolb@pa.net>
> Good question Topher,
I am certain you already have a very good grasp on these issues, but the
following is what runs through my mind as I ponder your question: To answer
your question, I would need to have some knowledge of 1) the intended use of
the aircraft and 2) firm grasp of the whole related structure*, and more
specifically, 3) spedific knowledge of the weakest point of the structure.
4) The weight factor, can I justify adding the additional weight. 5)
Accumulated fleet experience.
The only reason I would consider doing any reinforcement would be if I felt
reasonably sure that I had pinpointed the weakest link(s). Every structure
has a weak link. If you pull a chain till it breaks, most of the time just
one link will break - not every link simultaneously. And probably the chain
will not have broken until well past its rated strength. So to arbitrarily
chose one link and reinforce it to make it stronger is really pointless and
a waste of time - or, in the case of aircraft, even worse: If you reinforce
a stronger link, then you have weakened the whole structure because the
reinforcement has made the airplane heavier and that much more stress will
be place on the weakest link.
Useage: I would need to know something about the intended use of the
aircraft. To fly normally as most of us do, I would say probably not. But
if I planned on doing aerobatics like John H. used to do ... I probably
would. Interesting comment about John adding the reinforcement for reasons
of dependability when flying off the beaten path, etc.; I can understand
that reasoning as well; although when his gear failed, his trip still ended,
even with the reinforcements.
I would consider adding reinforcement ONLY because I would know that the
wing ribs were the weakest link in the wing structure. I hasten to add that
I believe the Kolb wings are as strong as the stated rating. (At least the
ratings of Old Kolb, I am not uptodate on new Kolb specs.) And if the ribs
are the weakest link in the structure then it would make sense to consider
reinforcing them, but only if I felt the rated strength of the aircraft was
not sufficient for my purposes - which brings us back to the intended use
issue.
For building an aircraft for myself, this is how I would answer the
question, to reinforce the ribs or not, for the Old Kolb models:
FireFly: No. Reason: The FF is an ultralight and 1) I would want to keep
the weight under 254 and 2) I would not do aerobatics.
FireStar: No. With 7 ribs it is actually stronger than the old TSs and
both the FS and TS have been amply proven for its intended use. And no
aerbatics.
Mark-III: No. With 9 ribs, it is very strong, well proven, bla bla bla.
And again no aerobatics.
SS: Yes. It is already as tough as nails, but I probably could not
resist kicking up my heels.
For TNK:
Kolbra: Don't know, not really familiar with the changes to the wing.
My convictions and throughts on the subject. Hope this helps.
Dennis
*Part of my knowledge of structures comes from an indepth study of
structures; from elaborate computer stress analysis; and from devouring
whole libraries of relevant literature. Actually the preceeding
statement(s) is not really true. I learded about structures from breaking
so many of them! In fact, I was the chief cook and airplane breaker at
Kolb. At least until JH came along ... One day Homer sez to me "Dennis,
you know you don't need to break our airpanes any more." I must have looked
pretty shocked because Homer then added. You don't need to break airplanes
any more because JH is doing it now. And I said to my self: "Self, Homer is
right, JH is doing a very capable job of breaking airplanes." And the more
I thought about it the more amazed I was that JH could pick up on this
challenging job so quickly. So ever since then I stopped breaking Kolb
airplanes. And then much later on JH too retired from the brokering
business. Is there anyone doing it these days???
>
> So Dennis, do you feel that adding those braces to more then just the
> outboard rib makes sense? Do you feel that they improve the wing
> structurally for flight loads? I don't want to sound negative, stronger
> wings are fine... but I just don't like adding weight if it isn't
required,
> or especially where it isn't doing you a bit of good.
>
> Topher
>
Message 31
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
With our props behind the wing, the prop "chops" through the airflow off
the wing and causes noises that a tractor doesn't have. If you ever get a
chance to hear a Varieze without a prop hub extension fly over, then you
get an extreme noise sample of what Kolbs do a little bit.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 08:25 PM 2/6/04 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Vincent <emailbill@chartermi.net>
>
>Hi gang
> My Rotax 503 with a 68 inch 3 blade prop is very noisy when I fly......
>
> .......but the same the engine that is on my friends Kit Fox, where the
>engine is out in front, is extremely quiet !
>I think most of the noise is coming from the prop being so close to back
>of the wing and the exhaust blowing into the prop.
>I am curious if Trikes are little quieter for this reason.
>
>Bill Vincent
>Firestar II
>Upper Peninsula of Michigan
>
>Do Not Archive
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Silencer box |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
I like the idea of running an inlet tube under the wing, that is good.
Something to be careful of is trying to get too much pressure with ram air
without compensating the float bowls. One of our listers who also owns a
hot rod Sonerai set up his cowling to force ram air into the air filter box
area. He discovered that if you get too much ram air going through the Bing
throttle bores, and the air flow becomes a pressure rather than a suction,
then the carbs cease to draw the fuel up out of the float bowls, and the
engine shuts off. You have to maintain a carb bore suction situation at all
times, UNLESS you are clever enough to properly vent the float bowls into
your ram air plenum and pressurize them to the same extent that you
pressurize the carb bore airflow, as Jack alludes to below.
As you vary the pressure and suction differential between the carb bores
and the float bowl vent lines, I think you will be able to vary the
mixture, but I think you also stand a chance of either flooding the engine
or else having your fuel flow suddenly cease, so be careful.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 12:29 PM 2/6/04 -0600, you wrote:
>Richard,
>
>You might want to consider running a tube from the silencer air inlet to
>some where below the wing. It may give you a little boost in air
>pressure. In trying to come up with a way to control air fuel mixture, I
>have taken some pressure data from the FireFly and I discovered that the
>static air pressure at carburetor height is about 2 inches of water less
>than below the wing at 55 mph. If you turn the tube inlet into the air
>stream, you can get dynamic pressure on top of the static pressure
>difference. This pressure difference may help you get back the air flow
>that you believe that you have lost.
>
>To check this out, I am building a right angle elbow air flow insert to
>mount on the Bing in the place of the filter. In my case I am going to
>run a flexible one inch ID tube to the air filter that is going to be
>suspended below the wing. In making the elbow, I have exposed the
>percolation vent so that I can change pressures to see if it will effect
>air fuel ratio while flying. I hope to finish up the elbow today.
>
>Still waiting for weather to clear and snow & ice to melt so I can run the
>lowered thrust line experiment with a 56 inch IVO prop. Experimentation
>is fun, but only if you get to fly once in a while. We got six inches of
>snow yesterday. Back to the shop.
>
>Jack B. Hart FF004
>Jackson, MO
>
>
>Jack & Louise Hart
>jbhart@ldd.net
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Silencer box |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
At 07:42 PM 2/6/04 -0500, you wrote:
>As far as I understand the science behind the silencing, it is the ability to
>divide the sound up into two channels that can be made out of phase with each
>other, thereby canceling each other out. That's why I believe you can observe
>two ports exiting the plastic bottle of the Rotax model. I suspect they are
>of different length in side the bottle which would cause them to be out of
>phase with each other canceling each other out. Same as was observed in the
>silencer on the air-conditioning unit.
<snip>
>On your model you have diverted the sound around a curved path, but it doesn't
>cancel any of the pulses.
I think you have analyzed my problem correctly. Not sure how I'll modify
it, but at least I think I understand the problem better.
>Also the fabric sides will transmit the sound like
>a drum to the out side if I understand your construction correctly. Still by
>diverting the intake as you have done will get some reduction in noise.
<snip> No, the fabric is just glued to the outside of the plywood to
reinforce it, waterproof it, and make it look nice.
>Hope you don't take offense to my comments! Only thinking out loud without
>having the expertise to back up any thing I said. Thanks again for sharing.
>
>Terry - FireFly #95
Take offense, are you kidding? If I knew in December what (I think) I know
now, it might have worked better.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Mod Weights |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "garvelink" <link@cdc.net>
Dennis,
how well constructed is the Ultrastar?
Srglink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Souder" <flykolb@pa.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Wing Mod Weights
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Souder" <flykolb@pa.net>
>
> > Good question Topher,
>
> I am certain you already have a very good grasp on these issues, but the
> following is what runs through my mind as I ponder your question: To
answer
> your question, I would need to have some knowledge of 1) the intended use
of
> the aircraft and 2) firm grasp of the whole related structure*, and more
> specifically, 3) spedific knowledge of the weakest point of the structure.
> 4) The weight factor, can I justify adding the additional weight. 5)
> Accumulated fleet experience.
>
> The only reason I would consider doing any reinforcement would be if I
felt
> reasonably sure that I had pinpointed the weakest link(s). Every
structure
> has a weak link. If you pull a chain till it breaks, most of the time
just
> one link will break - not every link simultaneously. And probably the
chain
> will not have broken until well past its rated strength. So to
arbitrarily
> chose one link and reinforce it to make it stronger is really pointless
and
> a waste of time - or, in the case of aircraft, even worse: If you
reinforce
> a stronger link, then you have weakened the whole structure because the
> reinforcement has made the airplane heavier and that much more stress will
> be place on the weakest link.
>
> Useage: I would need to know something about the intended use of the
> aircraft. To fly normally as most of us do, I would say probably not. But
> if I planned on doing aerobatics like John H. used to do ... I probably
> would. Interesting comment about John adding the reinforcement for
reasons
> of dependability when flying off the beaten path, etc.; I can understand
> that reasoning as well; although when his gear failed, his trip still
ended,
> even with the reinforcements.
>
> I would consider adding reinforcement ONLY because I would know that the
> wing ribs were the weakest link in the wing structure. I hasten to add
that
> I believe the Kolb wings are as strong as the stated rating. (At least
the
> ratings of Old Kolb, I am not uptodate on new Kolb specs.) And if the
ribs
> are the weakest link in the structure then it would make sense to consider
> reinforcing them, but only if I felt the rated strength of the aircraft
was
> not sufficient for my purposes - which brings us back to the intended use
> issue.
>
> For building an aircraft for myself, this is how I would answer the
> question, to reinforce the ribs or not, for the Old Kolb models:
> FireFly: No. Reason: The FF is an ultralight and 1) I would want to
keep
> the weight under 254 and 2) I would not do aerobatics.
> FireStar: No. With 7 ribs it is actually stronger than the old TSs and
> both the FS and TS have been amply proven for its intended use. And no
> aerbatics.
> Mark-III: No. With 9 ribs, it is very strong, well proven, bla bla bla.
> And again no aerobatics.
> SS: Yes. It is already as tough as nails, but I probably could not
> resist kicking up my heels.
> For TNK:
> Kolbra: Don't know, not really familiar with the changes to the wing.
>
> My convictions and throughts on the subject. Hope this helps.
>
> Dennis
>
> *Part of my knowledge of structures comes from an indepth study of
> structures; from elaborate computer stress analysis; and from devouring
> whole libraries of relevant literature. Actually the preceeding
> statement(s) is not really true. I learded about structures from breaking
> so many of them! In fact, I was the chief cook and airplane breaker at
> Kolb. At least until JH came along ... One day Homer sez to me "Dennis,
> you know you don't need to break our airpanes any more." I must have
looked
> pretty shocked because Homer then added. You don't need to break
airplanes
> any more because JH is doing it now. And I said to my self: "Self, Homer
is
> right, JH is doing a very capable job of breaking airplanes." And the
more
> I thought about it the more amazed I was that JH could pick up on this
> challenging job so quickly. So ever since then I stopped breaking Kolb
> airplanes. And then much later on JH too retired from the brokering
> business. Is there anyone doing it these days???
>
>
> >
> > So Dennis, do you feel that adding those braces to more then just the
> > outboard rib makes sense? Do you feel that they improve the wing
> > structurally for flight loads? I don't want to sound negative, stronger
> > wings are fine... but I just don't like adding weight if it isn't
> required,
> > or especially where it isn't doing you a bit of good.
> >
> > Topher
> >
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Mod Weights |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <rwpike@charter.net>
Everyone agrees that Kolb ribs are probably the weakest link in the whole
wing structure, yet SOP is to drill them full of unnecessary 1/8" rivet
holes all down their top & bottom surface to secure the fabric, (when they
could be just as easily rib stitched, and probably with less weight) then
we discuss the need to add extra braces to make the wing stronger.
Am I the only one that sees something odd about this picture?
(Yes. Shut up, take your funnel, and go back to your silencer box...)
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 12:02 AM 2/7/04 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Souder" <flykolb@pa.net>
><snip>
>I would consider adding reinforcement ONLY because I would know that the
>wing ribs were the weakest link in the wing structure. I hasten to add that
>I believe the Kolb wings are as strong as the stated rating. (At least the
>ratings of Old Kolb, I am not uptodate on new Kolb specs.) And if the ribs
>are the weakest link in the structure then it would make sense to consider
>reinforcing them, but only if I felt the rated strength of the aircraft was
>not sufficient for my purposes - which brings us back to the intended use
>issue.
><snip>
>Dennis
Message 36
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| Subject: | Wing Mod Weights |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" <tophera@centurytel.net>
Thanks Dennis,
That's about what I feel about it, but I will always defer to your and John
H's experience based knowledge and improvements over my theoretical musings
about these airplanes. You guys know, I only think I know!
The only locations that I felt a need to beef up on my wing was diagonally
bracing the leading edge tube to the main spar using 1/2 inch tubing. I did
that before I understood the mode of John H's leading edge failure. If I
build another Kolb I will make the front of the root rib out of 4130 instead
of the aluminum rib nose. I also am adding additional support to the
flaperon hinges since I have made them nearly full span and can deploy them
as flaps for trim changes and steeper approaches so they will see
significantly more load then the standard plane.
I also shortened each wing to 12 feet eliminating the wing trailing edge and
aileron leading edge splices. This significantly strengthened the bow tip
simply by making it a foot shorter and makes the entire wing subject to less
bending moment. It will cost me in wing efficiency but it should provide me
with slightly higher cruise speed, a more comfortable ride in turbulence by
raising the wing loading and combined with the near full span flaperons more
control in crosswinds. I also added a bit more Dihedral to get more roll
stability, but that will make crosswinds worse. Why can't any one change be
good for everything? Wings are rigged with slightly less incidence and the
tail wheel leg shortened increasing aircraft ground incidence to compensate.
My goal with these mods was to favor cross country flying very slightly over
short field performance (which is so good as to be ridiculous.) You may
notice that most of these mods are made by taking something away from the
plane not adding something. Should be one of the lightest FSII 503dc out
there. Time will tell if I have made a mess out of a very well optimized
plane...
Topher
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