---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 06/13/04: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:53 AM - Re: 912 carb linkage (Paul Petty) 2. 04:04 AM - Re: 912 carb linkage (Duncan McBride) 3. 04:44 AM - Smart Azz / Dumb Azz (Mike Pierzina) 4. 05:11 AM - Re: Smart Azz / Dumb Azz (Charlie England) 5. 05:19 AM - John H's BRS gap seal config. (N27SB@aol.com) 6. 06:53 AM - Re: documentation (Thom Riddle) 7. 07:02 AM - 912 carb linkage (Thom Riddle) 8. 07:52 AM - Drag, HP, Thrust Data From Flight Data (Jack & Louise Hart) 9. 07:53 AM - Re: Re: documentation (Dan Charter) 10. 08:24 AM - Re: documentation (jerb) 11. 08:29 AM - Re: tach and radio (jerb) 12. 08:32 AM - Re: Smart Azz / Dumb Azz (Ken korenek) 13. 09:21 AM - Re: Re: documentation (bryan green) 14. 09:27 AM - Re: Drag, HP, Thrust Data From Flight Data (Jack & Louise Hart) 15. 09:49 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 06/12/04 (William George) 16. 01:32 PM - Re: seat belt (John Hauck) 17. 01:34 PM - Re: seat belt (John Hauck) 18. 02:17 PM - Re: John H's BRS gap seal config. (John Hauck) 19. 06:27 PM - Re: seat belt (Charlie England) 20. 07:08 PM - Re: no 377 documentation (G. T. Alexander, Jr.) 21. 08:34 PM - Delayed Delivery of Email (John Hauck) 22. 08:42 PM - Re: seat belt (John Willamson) 23. 10:09 PM - Re: seat belt (WillUribe@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:53:40 AM PST US From: "Paul Petty" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 912 carb linkage --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" Ed, Simple just turn the ignition off...... pp ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 912 carb linkage > --> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com > > In a message dated 6/12/04 10:42:41 PM Central Standard Time, > biglar@gogittum.com writes: > > << If the cable breaks, you keep on flying. With default idle, you don't. > Lar. Do not Archive. > >> > Lar, > I dont usually chime in But......... What happens if it defaults > to wide open throttle and you are not in possition to take off yet? > Nose over? Hummmmm Which is better. Guess it depends on where you are at the > time. It would be scarry on the ground in a firefly. Do Not Archive > > Ed > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:21 AM PST US From: "Duncan McBride" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 912 carb linkage --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Duncan McBride" I thought about it and left it in the stock position. The guys that fly Dragonfly tugs that tow hanggliders up and down all day set it to be springloaded to idle - they figure since they are taking off and landing a lot the chances of a cable break happening on the ground are higher, and besides they are usually over the field so landing isn't a problem. For normal flying around you want the engine to keep running. The drill if the engine suddenly goes to full throttle when you don't want it to is to turn the ignition off. Plan B: good brakes and a fuel shutoff. Duncan McBride Mark III, 319DM ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 912 carb linkage > --> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com > > In a message dated 6/12/04 10:42:41 PM Central Standard Time, > biglar@gogittum.com writes: > > << If the cable breaks, you keep on flying. With default idle, you don't. > Lar. Do not Archive. > >> > Lar, > I dont usually chime in But......... What happens if it defaults > to wide open throttle and you are not in possition to take off yet? > Nose over? Hummmmm Which is better. Guess it depends on where you are at the > time. It would be scarry on the ground in a firefly. Do Not Archive > > Ed > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:52 AM PST US From: "Mike Pierzina" Subject: Kolb-List: Smart Azz / Dumb Azz --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Mike Pierzina" Charlie boy, Thanks for the Smart Azz answer that DIDN'T tell me anything.... But, for "YOUR" information , I want the Airworthiness Cert to say "2 Seater" Please don't reply to any of my post...(4 times) do not archive Snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. Hmmm... Does the back seater need to keep his back muscles/tendons, teeth -) If you're putting an N number on a new one, the inspector probably won't issue an a/w certificate without one for each seat. Charlie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. --- My Web Site: http://www.geocities.com/planecrazzzy/Planecrazzzy.html Sometimes you just have to take the leap and build your wings on the way down... Gotta Fly... ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:51 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Smart Azz / Dumb Azz --> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England Hi Mike, My comment was intended to be lighthearted; obviously it came across as offensive. Please accept my apology. If you were asking whether the FAA will require a back seat shoulder strap in order to issue the a/w cert. , my understanding is that shoulder straps are required for both the pilot & the passenger. Again, please accept my apology. Charlie Mike Pierzina wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Mike Pierzina" > >Charlie boy, > > Thanks for the Smart Azz answer that DIDN'T tell me anything.... > But, for "YOUR" information , I want the Airworthiness Cert to say "2 Seater" > > Please don't reply to any of my post...(4 times) > >do not archive > > >Snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. >Hmmm... Does the back seater need to keep his back muscles/tendons, >teeth -) > >If you're putting an N number on a new one, the inspector probably won't >issue an a/w certificate without one for each seat. > >Charlie > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:02 AM PST US From: N27SB@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: John H's BRS gap seal config. --> Kolb-List message posted by: N27SB@aol.com I am starting to build wings and I liked the gap seal BRS setup that John H. has. I don't need to look straight up (or straight down as the case may be). Are there any provisions that I need to make now, or is everything contained in the cage assy? Thanks, Steve Boetto MKIII Classic on Amphib Floats Tail done, Longwood,FL ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:00 AM PST US From: "Thom Riddle" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: documentation --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" Dan, Let me know how the picture approach works out because I am in a similar situation. I bought a copy of drawings from Bryan Green but have not other docs at all. Thom in Buffalo do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:25 AM PST US From: "Thom Riddle" Subject: Kolb-List: 912 carb linkage --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" For what its worth, GA aircraft have the default carb set up to go to full throttle if the cable breaks. My Cherokee 140 partner experienced this very thing shortly after take-off immediately after he throttled back for cruise and used the manual mixture control to manage the engine well enough to get him back to the airport for an uneventful landing. This is not what I would have done because it is not good practice to lean and engine at full throttle but there have been no apparent ill effects to the engine. I would have climbed until I had abundant altitude for an easy glide back home and then cut the engine. Thom in Buffalo do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:53 AM PST US From: Jack & Louise Hart Subject: Kolb-List: Drag, HP, Thrust Data From Flight Data --> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart Kolbers, One of the problems of trying to get the FireFly into a more efficient configuration is being able to detect whether or not the FireFly is indeed performing better or at a higher level. How do you know it is flying at a faster speed that is not influenced by changes in air temperature etc.? On the Internet I found what I believe to be a rather neat program, in which, you enter the altitude, air speed, propeller rpm, # of blades, diameter and blade pitch. From this it computes propeller thrust, power output, efficiency, and power absorbed. The site to download this free program is: http://www.gylesaero.com/freeware/propcalc.shtml I do not know how well this program fits the IVO prop, but I feel as long as I test under similar conditions the program will indicate thrust/drag improvements. The way I use this program is to always fly, as closely as possible, in the same conditions. I pitch the IVO so the engine tops out at 6,000 rpm in flight. I fly at the same altitude. Air speed is found during level flight by flying up and down wind and averaging the gps speeds. Pitch is measured at the propeller tip and the forward advance per revolution is computed in inches. Propeller revolutions are computed by dividing the engine rpm by the belt reduction ratio. The thrust at 6,000 rpm is the drag the FireFly presents at WOT. As the engine piston rings seat better the thrust, speed, power output and power absorbed all increase. As more fairings have been placed on the FireFly, top speed, propeller pitch and efficiency increased, and fuel flow rate decreased. Also, I take data at 5,200 rpm because this is my cruise speed, and I look at the same data. Cruise condition is more important because that is where you spend most of your time. Any hp reductions that can be obtained will directly reduce fuel consumption rates and/or increased pitch at 5,200 rpm translate back into increase cruise speed. For your interest. Jack B. Hart FF004 Jackson, MO Jack & Louise Hart jbhart@ldd.net ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:50 AM PST US From: "Dan Charter" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: documentation --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dan Charter" They didn't want pics. They believe that I already have a FS 1. It's the owner of the company that has to be swayed from his thoughts that everyone is out to build a black market Kolb. I explained that I just want to fly safe. We'll see what happens. Do Not Archive Dan Charter FS 1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thom Riddle" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: documentation > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" > > Dan, > > Let me know how the picture approach works out because I am in a similar situation. I bought a copy of drawings from Bryan Green but have not other docs at all. > > Thom in Buffalo > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:24:05 AM PST US From: jerb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: documentation --> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb Dan, I don't think your get that - the only documentation an kit assembler gets with a kit is the builders manual and a set of illustration drawings - some of the illustrations may contain exploded views but many just illustrate the parts in there assembled form. I would think they should be capable of providing a copy of the original builders manual and drawings for that model. Detailed part production drawings like for the weldments are not provided. Shoot an personal email of what your up to. jerb (dekolbed FireFly) At 10:57 AM 6/12/04 -0500, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dan Charter" > >Hi, I've been having one heck of a time getting a manual with exploded >views with part numbers from Kolb. For some reason there isn't a serial >number on the root tube. Kolb won't send me anything because they're >afraid that I'll build a plane from scratch. I can see their point but >this is a "85" original FS 1. The original owner is from Atlanta. An Air >Canada pilot. If you're on this list please contact me. I need the >numbers. I want to make sure all is in order on the plane and replace >parts when needed. It's a great flying plane and want to keep it that way. >Dan Charter >Firestar 1 >Do Not Archive > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:01 AM PST US From: jerb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: tach and radio --> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb Dan, This could be several things - a ground problem comes to mind also what kind of voltage regulator do you have - some of the old lower output unit required a continuous load on them to regulate properly. That may be your problem. jerb At 12:08 AM 6/6/04 -0500, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dan Charter" > >I haven't dug into my wiring yet but this is what happened with my >original Firestar yesterday. My radio was getting low on power so I >decided to plug into the power that was run up to the cockpit by a >previous owner. The radio powered up fine but when I would key the mic. >the tach that always read 2000 rpm's no matter what the throttle was set >at started reading properly. There's a tiny tach that came with the plane >to verify it. When I let go of the PTT the Westach goes back to reading >2000 rpm's. What do you people think the person that wired it in did? It >should be interesting once I get everything traced. Do not archive >Dan Charter >original Firestar > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:20 AM PST US From: Ken korenek Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Smart Azz / Dumb Azz --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ken korenek Hey There, Mikey-Boy, How about maintaining a little courtesy and decorum here. I thought the answer you got was in fitting with the question you asked. If you want to flame this guy for giving you what he probably thought was an honest answer to an honest question, do it off line. Responses like yours will only cause others in the fringes who are thinking about contributing to this list to not do so in fear of being flamed by (in your own words) "Smart Azzes and Dumb Azzes" like you. I stopped contributing long ago for the same reasons, but could not resist responding to your latest "contribution" to the Kolb community... Ken Korenek FS#438 N104KK Arlington, Texas Mike Pierzina wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Mike Pierzina" > >Charlie boy, > > Thanks for the Smart Azz answer that DIDN'T tell me anything.... > But, for "YOUR" information , I want the Airworthiness Cert to say "2 Seater" > > Please don't reply to any of my post...(4 times) > >do not archive > > >Snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. >Hmmm... Does the back seater need to keep his back muscles/tendons, >teeth -) > >If you're putting an N number on a new one, the inspector probably won't >issue an a/w certificate without one for each seat. > >Charlie > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >--- >My Web Site: >http://www.geocities.com/planecrazzzy/Planecrazzzy.html > > >Sometimes you just have to take the leap >and build your wings on the way down... > Gotta Fly... > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:12 AM PST US From: "bryan green" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: documentation --> Kolb-List message posted by: "bryan green" I bought a copy of drawings from Bryan Green Thom in Buffalo Thom, you did NOT buy a set of plans from me. I having talked to you on the list and trying to help a fellow flyer in need sent you a copy of my plans at the cost of the prints, my expense and time were given freely. Since this was between you and I, it is not appreciated that you put it on the list and in the future you may want to chose your wording more carefully. I am sorry the list members have to read this, but I do not want anyone thinking I am in the habit of reproducing and selling other peoples plans. I suggest anyone with an older plane like mine needing info try and buy it from TNK.:~( DO NOT ARCHIVE Bryan Green Elgin SC Firestar I 19LBG 377 BRS ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:14 AM PST US From: Jack & Louise Hart Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Drag, HP, Thrust Data From Flight Data --> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart Kolbers, I had to go back and find the source of the free software. After I sent the email, I realized that I had listed a lower level program than the one I use. The extended version can be found at: http://www.mmaa-modelairplanes.org/fun_stuff.htm under the title of "Propeller Selector" and it will download as "ExtendedPropSelector.exe". The first version that I had listed does not include inputing altitude data, nor does it give you various coefficients, tip mach number or the 3/4 prop radius pitch angle. Jack B. Hart FF004 Jackson, MO >Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:35:37 -0500 >To: kolb-list@matronics.com >From: Jack & Louise Hart >Subject: Drag, HP, Thrust Data From Flight Data >In-Reply-To: <200406131352.i5DDqI325131@matronics.com> > >Kolbers, > >One of the problems of trying to get the FireFly into a more efficient >configuration is being able to detect whether or not the FireFly is indeed >performing better or at a higher level. How do you know it is flying at a >faster speed that is not influenced by changes in air temperature etc.? On >the Internet I found what I believe to be a rather neat program, in which, >you enter the altitude, air speed, propeller rpm, # of blades, diameter and >blade pitch. From this it computes propeller thrust, power output, >efficiency, and power absorbed. The site to download this free program >is: > >http://www.gylesaero.com/freeware/propcalc.shtml > >I do not know how well >this program fits the IVO prop, but I feel as long as I test under similar >conditions the program will indicate thrust/drag improvements. The way I >use this program is to always fly, as closely as possible, in the same >conditions. I pitch the IVO so the engine tops out at 6,000 rpm in flight. >I fly at the same altitude. Air speed is found during level flight by >flying up and down wind and averaging the gps speeds. Pitch is measured at >the propeller tip and the forward advance per revolution is computed in >inches. Propeller revolutions are computed by dividing the engine rpm by >the belt reduction ratio. > >The thrust at 6,000 rpm is the drag the FireFly presents at WOT. As the >engine piston rings seat better the thrust, speed, power output and power >absorbed all increase. As more fairings have been placed on the FireFly, >top speed, propeller pitch and efficiency increased, and fuel flow rate >decreased. > >Also, I take data at 5,200 rpm because this is my cruise speed, and I look >at the same data. Cruise condition is more important because that is where >you spend most of your time. Any hp reductions that can be obtained will >directly reduce fuel consumption rates and/or increased pitch at 5,200 rpm >translate back into increase cruise speed. > >For your interest. > >Jack B. Hart FF004 >Jackson, MO Jack & Louise Hart jbhart@ldd.net ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:23 AM PST US From: William George Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 06/12/04 --> Kolb-List message posted by: William George Once upon a time I had landed and was back taxiing down the runway to parking when suddenly the engine went to full throttle. This stood the airplane on its nose skid for about one second as I quickly killed the engine with the ignition switch. No damage to the ariplane. The cause was the lead tip had come off the cable at the splitter end. Moral of the story is that it would behoove the folks that have this system to mentally prepare for the wide open throttle event. If it happens in flight one should set up for a dead stick landing by placing the aircraft at a high key position over your intended runway. The altitude for this maneuver should be known for your particular aircraft. If the maneuver has been practiced, and the position/altitude/airspeed numbers verified, you can kill the engine at the high key and be assured of a successful arrival at the field. Bill George Hawaii Kolb Mk-3 Verner 1400 Powerfin do not archive On Jun 12, 2004, at 8:56 PM, Kolb-List Digest Server wrote: > > Time: 09:42:21 PM PST US > From: "Larry Bourne" > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 912 carb linkage > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" > > If the cable breaks, you keep on flying. With default idle, you don't. > Lar. Do not Archive. > > Larry Bourne > Palm Springs, CA > Building Kolb Mk III > N78LB Vamoose > www.gogittum.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Giovanni Day" > Subject: Kolb-List: 912 carb linkage > > >> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Giovanni Day" >> >> Hello all, >> >> I see where the stock carb setup defaults to full throttle. Why is >> this? >> The 912 I got used was modified to be idle by default. I could not >> find >> any info on this in the archives. Thanks >> >> >> Giovanni Day >> MKIII 912 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:32:00 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: seat belt --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" won't | issue an a/w certificate without one for both seats. | | Charlie Hi Charlie/Gang: Why not? john h ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:08 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: seat belt --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" won't | issue an a/w certificate without one for each seat. | | Charlie Charlie/All: Your send key is stuck. This is the fourth identical msg. john h ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:04 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: John H's BRS gap seal config. --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" that John H. | has. I don't need to look straight up (or straight down as the case may be). | Are there any provisions that I need to make now, or is everything contained in | the cage assy? | | Thanks, | | Steve Boetto Hi Steve/All: The only thing you need to do to have room for the parachute pack tray is use four ribs instead of three for the gap seal. I also used a piece of leading edge tube (whatever size the wing leading edge tube is. I think 1.5 inches) to reinforce the front sheet metal leading edge of the standard MKIII gap seal. Made no special provisions for the pack tray to ride on. Secured it directly to the lexan with the straps BRS provided. To get everything, including the rocket inside the gap seal, I fabricated an 1/8" aluminum extension to drop the rocket about 5 inches. The top is sealed frangible hair cell plastic sheet, black in color, with a bead of silicone seal and hardware store aluminum pop rivets. This set up has lasted 4.5 years with no problems, except a stress crack in the haircell plastic in the right rear side. I just noticed this the other day and repaired with black silicone seal bead, smoothed down nicely with spit on the tip on my index finger. Amazing the jobs we can do with spit. Everything from cleaning your glasses, to smoothing silicone seal. Use the same method for smoothing silicone seal on the exhaust springs. This method of mounting the BRS recovery system lengthens repack time for the soft pack 1150 BRS from two to six years. I think rocket life is something like 12 years. Even then, you don't have to change it, ..............unless you want to gamble with your system performance. :-) Take care, john h PS: Gee! Time grows near. Only two weeks, approximately, until time to load up the MK III and head out to Alaska. Time is flying. This will be my third and a half solo flight to Alaska. Can not count the failed attempt in 2000 as a whole. Only a half. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:30 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: Kolb-List: seat belt --> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England John Hauck wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > >won't >| issue an a/w certificate without one for both seats. >| >| Charlie > >Hi Charlie/Gang: > >Why not? > >john h > You know, I thought it would be pretty easy to find the reg. that requires them; I should have known better. Here's what I found: This is a link to FAR23 for factory planes: http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgFAR.nsf/0/84E2F2381A8ED9D685256687006F06E0?OpenDocument It mentions the requirement of seatbelts/ shoulder harnesses for all seats. While homebuilts aren't required to conform to FAR23, the inspector isn't likely to sign off a new homebuilt that doesn't provide at least some indication that the builder made some effort to protect his passenger. The inspector is given *huge* leeway in writing the operating limitations, & keeping him/her happy is almost always more important than being 'right'. This is a link to the FAA checklist for signing off a homebuilt: http://aea.faa.gov/aea200/ea01/Checklist.htm It mentions shoulder harness, & even spells out the range of attach angles allowable (though it doesn't specifically say 'pilot and passenger'). Sorry I couldn't find a definitive reference. Charlie BTW, didn't someone ask about whether throttles should be spring loaded open or closed? The checklist does address that question directly. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:59 PM PST US From: "G. T. Alexander, Jr." Subject: Re: Kolb-List: no 377 documentation --> Kolb-List message posted by: "G. T. Alexander, Jr." Thom et al: I have consistently used .018 for R377, R447 & R503. Seems to work pretty well. George Alexander http://gtalexander.home.att.net ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:03 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Delayed Delivery of Email --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Hi Gang: My two replies to Charlie's msgs were sent by me more than 6 hours prior to showing up on the Kolb List. I wonder where they hand out all that time before reporting for duty. john h DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:58 PM PST US From: "John Willamson" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: seat belt --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Willamson" The requirement for seat and/or shoulder harness can be seen in FAR 91.205 Excerpt: Sec. 91.205 An approved safety belt with an approved metal-to-metal latching device for each occupant 2 years of age or older. (14) For small civil airplanes manufactured after July 18, 1978, an approved shoulder harness for each front seat. The shoulder harness must be designed to protect the occupant from serious head injury when the occupant experiences the ultimate inertia forces specified in Sec. 23.561(b)(2) of this chapter. Each shoulder harness installed at a flight crewmember station must permit the crewmember, when seated and with the safety belt and shoulder harness fastened, to perform all functions necessary for flight operations. For purposes of this paragraph-- (i) The date of manufacture of an airplane is the date the inspection acceptance records reflect that the airplane is complete and meets the FAA-approved type design data; and (ii) A front seat is a seat located at a flight crewmember station or any seat located alongside such a seat. John Williamson Arlington, TX Kolb Kolbra, Rotax 912ULS, 599 hours http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:41 PM PST US From: WillUribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: seat belt --> Kolb-List message posted by: WillUribe@aol.com > > It mentions the requirement of seatbelts/ shoulder harnesses=A0 for all > seats. While homebuilts aren't required to conform to FAR23, the > inspector isn't likely to sign off a new homebuilt=A0 that doesn't provide > at least some indication that the builder made some effort to protect > his passenger. The inspector is given *huge* leeway in writing the > operating limitations, & keeping him/her happy is almost always more > important than being 'right'. > My FireStar II was signed off without the shoulder harness. I guess it depends on who is the inspector. But before I did take someone up for a ride I did install the shoulder harness because I care. Will Uribe El Paso, TX FireStar II N4GU C-172 N2506U http://home.elp.rr.com/airplane/ Do not archive and my apologies to anyone who is offended by this post.