Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:29 AM - Re: Re: Drag, HP, Thrust Data From Flight Data (GeoR38@aol.com)
2. 04:33 AM - space (GeoR38@aol.com)
3. 04:50 AM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (bryan green)
4. 06:24 AM - Re: Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (jhauck@elmore.rr.com)
5. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Bob Bean)
6. 07:26 AM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Chiocchio, Stanley)
7. 07:28 AM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Chiocchio, Stanley)
8. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Chiocchio, Stanley)
9. 07:38 AM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Chiocchio, Stanley)
10. 09:02 AM - Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Don Gherardini)
11. 09:07 AM - Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (David Paule)
12. 09:41 AM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Kirk Smith)
13. 10:25 AM - Re: Amsoil new formulation. (Jim Gerken)
14. 11:53 AM - Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
15. 01:34 PM - aft cg (Charles & Meredith Blackwell)
16. 03:52 PM - FOR SALE ROTAX 503 DCDI , prop,etc. (Robert Doebler)
17. 04:49 PM - thrust (Bob Bean)
18. 07:05 PM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Edward Chmielewski)
19. 08:37 PM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Richard Swiderski)
20. 09:28 PM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Don Gherardini)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Drag, HP, Thrust Data From Flight Data |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
http://www.mmaa-modelairplanes.org/fun_stuff.htm
Jack....what a great website this MMAA is .....I went to paper airplanes and was
astounded.
Um savin that puppy!
George Randolph
Firestar Driver from The Villages, Fl
Message 2
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1087596610974&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724
Here is a lead to space travel for the average man.....er....kinda average millionaire,
anyway.
there seems to be a race going on between the good ol USA and Canadian private
people.
GeorgeRandolph
Firestar driver from The Villages
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: RE: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "bryan green" <lgreen1@sc.rr.com>
Bryan Green (Elgin SC)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Armstrong" <tophera@centurytel.net>
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: RE: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix
What I don't understand and maybe you could explain for me is.
If this is a Firestar 2 built to specs why is the CG so far aft?
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: RE: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jhauck@elmore.rr.com
------------------------------------------------
Browse the web by email! mailto:www@web2mail.com
adding the web page you want as the subject line
e.g. get CNN headlines with the subject: cnn.com
------------------------------------------------
> What I don't understand and maybe you could explain for me is.
> If this is a Firestar 2 built to specs why is the CG so far aft?
Good Morning Bryan G/Gang:
Bryan G said in two lines what it took me a page not to say yesterday. Why the
cg problem, if built anywhere near standard?
I guess if anybody should have an aft cg problem, it should have been me. The
FS had an 18 gal fuel tank behind the cg, 3 gal of oil, tent, sleeping bag, airmatress,
and my clothes. My MKIII has 25 gal fuel tank behind the cg, a case
of MRE's (28 lbs), 3 liters of water, tent, sleeping bag, air mattress, clothes,
arctic survival gear, and on and on. Forgot, it has flown, quite well, with
a Maule 8" diameter pneumatic tail wheel that weighed more than 10 lbs. Flying
with a Maule 6" diameter solid rubber tail wheel at present. It weighs 6
or 8 lbs.
What I am saying is, Kolbs do not normally have a cg problem. I am not saying,
don't sweep the wings, reflex the ailerons, or whatever you want to experiment
with on your own particular Kolb. It is your airplane and you have the priviledge
to do what you want to do. However, it probably is not necessary to change,
drastically, from the designer's configuration.
Take care,
john h
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: RE: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
What John is saying is that if'n he rolled miss p'fer onto the bathroom
scales just before departure on one of his big adventures, ther'd be
a crunching sound, springs a'poppin resulting in a coupla junk
walmart scales. I think it's the mighty 912 that keeps the tail up.
:) -BB do not archive
jhauck@elmore.rr.com wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: jhauck@elmore.rr.com
>
>------------------------------------------------
>Browse the web by email! mailto:www@web2mail.com
>adding the web page you want as the subject line
>e.g. get CNN headlines with the subject: cnn.com
>------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > What I don't understand and maybe you could explain for me is.
>
>
>>If this is a Firestar 2 built to specs why is the CG so far aft?
>>
>>
>
>Good Morning Bryan G/Gang:
>
>Bryan G said in two lines what it took me a page not to say yesterday. Why the
cg problem, if built anywhere near standard?
>
>I guess if anybody should have an aft cg problem, it should have been me. The
FS had an 18 gal fuel tank behind the cg, 3 gal of oil, tent, sleeping bag, airmatress,
and my clothes. My MKIII has 25 gal fuel tank behind the cg, a case
of MRE's (28 lbs), 3 liters of water, tent, sleeping bag, air mattress, clothes,
arctic survival gear, and on and on. Forgot, it has flown, quite well, with
a Maule 8" diameter pneumatic tail wheel that weighed more than 10 lbs. Flying
with a Maule 6" diameter solid rubber tail wheel at present. It weighs
6 or 8 lbs.
>
>What I am saying is, Kolbs do not normally have a cg problem. I am not saying,
don't sweep the wings, reflex the ailerons, or whatever you want to experiment
with on your own particular Kolb. It is your airplane and you have the priviledge
to do what you want to do. However, it probably is not necessary to change,
drastically, from the designer's configuration.
>
>Take care,
>
>john h
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | RE: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chiocchio, Stanley" <schiocchio@olhcc.edu>
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Message 7
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| Subject: | RE: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chiocchio, Stanley" <schiocchio@olhcc.edu>
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Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
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|
| Subject: | RE: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chiocchio, Stanley" <schiocchio@olhcc.edu>
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| Subject: | RE: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chiocchio, Stanley" <schiocchio@olhcc.edu>
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Oi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20va29sYi1saXN0DQoJXy09ICBPdGhlciBMaXN0czogICAgaHR0
cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL2VtYWlsbGlzdHMNCglfLT0gIFRyb3VibGUgUmVwb3J0ICBo
dHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vdHJvdWJsZS1yZXBvcnQNCglfLT0gIENvbnRyaWJ1dGlv
bnM6ICBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vY29udHJpYnV0aW9uDQoJXy09PT09PT09PT09
PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09
PT09PT0NCgkNCgkNCgkNCgkNCgkNCg0K
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
HIya Gang...
I finished up the FireFly repairs last nite....paint is dry and insurments
reinstalled!....WAHOOO...now.....if the dang wind would just lat a bit...I
am ready to get re-born...oops..I mean Air-born!!!!
I have been following this thread that D.Paule started about the aft cg on
that FSII with alot of interest....and I will tell you what I think, all the
suggestions make perfect sense to me...and none are probably really un-safe.
But the most drastic is obviously the sweep change....and I'll tell ya what
Dave....I believe I would likely make theother changes first....so you can
get the feel of the bird.
here is a suggestion for a (possible) test program itenary...
1st....add the necessary ballast to the front of the bird and fly it before
you make any structural changes. slowly remove the ballast a bit at a time
and see if the handleing is affected as you suspect...
I'll bet you a buck you will find that the specified "CG limits" are written
very conservatively...as Hauck suggests...it is very hard to get that Kolb
into an unsafe CG situation....regardless of what the scales say. This has
been my exact experience with my FireFly. I have had it way out of CG
2nd...test the trim of those Flaperons and just what effect they have on the
inflight "balance"...it will suprise you as to how good it works.
3rd...If you decide changes are warranted still...now you will have a much
better idea of just what you need to accomplish if none of the above is
satisfactory. And a sweep change after gathering the above experience might
be attempted...it is a very interesting idea...and one I would love to hear
the results of.
BAsically This seems like the "safest way".....and of course...as long as we
all proced in a safe method when attempting changes to out homebuilt flying
machines..the results can be very satisfiying
Good Luck DAve!
Don Gherardini
FireFly 098
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Paule" <dpaule@frii.com>
Several folks have in one manner or another asked why the cg is aft of the
limits.
The Firestar II currently includes these items: oil injection, inlet
silencer, exhaust silencer, "C" gearbox, prop balancing disk, fuel tank
gauge, one 5 gallon tank and strobes. It has the 7-rib wings and mechanical
brakes and cockpit carpet.
The plans that came with it specify a chord of 64" and limits of 20% to 37%.
In terms of inches aft of the leading edge, that's 12.8" to 23.68". That
weight and balance page is marked 1993, Rev 0.
I also own a slightly more recent set of plans that specifies a chord of 61"
and limits of 20% to 37%. In terms of inches aft of the leading edge,
that's 12.2" to 21.35". This weight and balance page is marked 1993, Rev
8-96. Both of these are from the old Kolb company. It is this aft limit that
is the concern here.
The empty weight and cg position is currently 357 pounds at 36.90 inches aft
of the leading edge. I weighed it myself.
With me, 5 gallons of fuel and a gallon of oil in the oil tank (total
capacity is unknown) and no ballast, the weight is 550 pounds and the center
of gravity is at 23.52". That includes me at 155 pounds and while I'm not
quite there yet, I usually am in the summer. This is currently the aft cg
condition.
I would like to add the second five gallon tank and the second seat
eventually, but those are not in the weight and balance (or on the airplane)
at this time.
Regarding the physical change to sweep the wings one or two degrees aft,
I'll need to build one bracket. It will be held on by two existing clevis
pins. No other change is anticipated except those I've previously mentioned.
While I have not discussed first-flight protocol, I can borrow a ballast pad
that will suffice for the first few hours.
Some people have given the impression that the center of gravity position is
primarily a trim issue. That's incorrect. The forward cg limit is usually
based upon control power available for take-off. The aft cg limit is based
upon stability. Trim devices, covered well in the archives, are used to
correct out-of-trim situations.
I did realize that this sweepback will very slightly reduce the lift-curve
slope. That changes the effective tail volume and very slightly increases
it, partially offsetting the reduction in tail volume due to the reduced
arm.
Dave Paule
FSII
Boulder, CO
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
> The Firestar II currently includes these items: oil injection, inlet
> silencer, exhaust silencer, "C" gearbox, prop balancing disk, fuel tank
> gauge, one 5 gallon tank and strobes. It has the 7-rib wings and
mechanical
> brakes and cockpit carpet.
A battery in the nose for radio, GPS, etc? Kirk
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Amsoil new formulation. |
12:25:22 PM
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jim Gerken <gerken@us.ibm.com>
>Time: 12:39:07 PM PST US
>Subject: Kolb-List: Amsoil new formulation.
>From: "Gray, Mark" <Mark.Gray@Takata.com>
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Gray, Mark" <Mark.Gray@Takata.com>
>I know this is going to open a can of worms but........
>I have been running Amsoil 100:1 for 5 years and am well on the way to
>my second rebuild at over 450 hrs.
>I was going to order a new case of oil and found they no longer offer
>the Amsoil ATC 100:1 premix. It has been replaced with a new formula
>with a flash point of less than half what it was. Not being a
>chemical/lubricant engineer I am not sure if I am willing to try this
>new blend.
>Has anyone been running the new mix at 100:1?
>Until I feel comfortable with the new formula I think I will switch to
>50:1 Pennzoil.
>Let the arguments begin!
>Mark
I ran the Amsoil Premix 100:1 oil, Mark. I did try it at 100:1 ratio and
did not like the noise and roughness of the 582 under full load conditions,
so increased the ratio, progressively thru experimentation to 70:1, and ran
it there for a couple seasons. When torn down for inspection, there was no
detectable wear, but there was a buildup problem. Amsoil was contacted by
phone several times and by mail too, and offered absolutely no good help at
all. Speaking with their technical people, I asked for the name of a
solvent which could be used to remove the deposits. They suggested
several, all were tried, for days at a time each in some cases, with poor
results. Eventually, only mechanical means could remove these deposits.
The fact that Ams has LOWERED the flash point may be a good thing. Maybe
the stuff will burn up better. Or maybe I don't have a clue. Again, the
oil did protect from wear very well. At the last inspection at 170 hours
total time just before I sold the engine, the cylinders still had virtually
new measurements, and cross hatching still clearly evident everywhere. You
did not say which engine you are running it in. I have a theory that the
smaller engines are run harder and hotter than the larger ones, and so
buildup sometimes occurs in the 582 and 618 since they are actually
throttled back for cruise, and run cooler from the liquid cooling jacket.
Again, this is a theory. I have not tried the new formulation, and
probably won't since the 582 went down the road and the BMW is running like
a swiss watch on my Mkiii. Good luck.
Jim G
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
Wow
This has been fun to listen too. There have been some real good ideas. The
wing sweep idea sounds neat but changes a design that that is safe and
strong. I don't know anything about aircraft structural design but I would
stay away from it. Some one already suggested it but I moved my starter
battery to the nose cone of my airplane and now I'm within the published CG
limits.
Dennis Souder told me once that Kolbs fly quite well with the CG further aft
but the FAA kind of forced then into the published limits. This is probably
why JH's airplane flies so well with a aft CG. I have read that as the CG
moves aft that pitch stability suffers. For a while I flew with a weight
clamped to the tail wheel spring to counter the higher than normal thrust
line of my VW. I have lowered the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer
and removed the tail weight. I now feel that pitch excursions in rough air
are much less pronounced.
Rick Neilsen
Reduive VW powered MKIIIc
Message 15
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charles & Meredith Blackwell <wozani@optonline.net>
Dave,
Others probably know more about the problem, but would moving the seat forward
be an easier fix than messing with the wings? It isn't huge, but I remember
when my instructor had both of us lean forward in the seats it threw the trim
all out of whack. And solo I have noticed a difference when I secure some
weights on the other seat vs. on the floor. The MKII is a drain on the arm to
fly solo without some compensating weight, probably dangerous too because letting
go of the stick causes a slow nose up to an eventual stall. The difference
of securing the 40lbs just about a foot forward makes a huge difference. If
yours is slightly out, maybe a 3" cushion could move you forward enough to help
and still allow you to use the seatbelts safely.
And out of curiosity, what caused your bird to fall out of tolerances? Have
you flown it with added weight to learn how it flies and tried decreasing it
as you go? Seems like a shame to change something if you haven't tried flying
it yet.
Charlie in NJ, MKII 503, 3rd owner
Message 16
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| Subject: | FOR SALE ROTAX 503 DCDI , prop,etc. |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Doebler <doebler@sbcglobal.net>
I'm selling a Rotax 503DCDI with: electric start/oil injection/b-gear box/remote
choke/throttle & choke cables/Rotax oil tank with low oil sensor, and indicator/3
blade Ivoprop, ground adjustable, 62" prop/lord mounts/muffler/shielded
ignition wires/ignition switch/kill switch/upgraded regulator/2-5 gallon fuel
tanks/solid-state fuel sensor with gauge/dual EGT/dual CHT/mini tach& hour meter/gel
battery/manuals. Total hours are 51. I haven't flown in a couple of years,
so decided to part out firestar II. No crash damage or abuse.It is still on
ultralight, so come see and hear it run. Local only, too heavy to ship.
Appoximately 35 miles NorthWest of Los Angeles, Ca.
Bob Doebler
66 Dapplegray Rd.
Bell Canyon, Ca. 91307
1-818-348-7075
doebler@sbcglobal.net
Message 17
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
I was enjoying that neat prop selector program put up recently.
-A question: How much thrust would a generic MkIII, solo, need to fly
straight and level at 1000'msl, standard day, at 65mph? A hp number
would be good too. The selector shows hp in and out in addition to
an efficiency number. -BB do not archive
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: RE: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Edward Chmielewski" <edchmiel@mindspring.com>
Dave P./All,
This FSII was weighed in the flight attitude, not tail-low, correct?
Seems awfully far aft on CG for a
plans-built bird.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
Do not archive.
> remember,
> all.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderski" <swiderski@isp.com>
David,
Regarding your below post, you say 37% of the 64" chord is 23.68"
which is what my calculator says. But then you said that 37% of a 61" chord
is 21.35". My calculator says its 22.57". You presently are 23.52" which,
if yow have the 61" chord would put you at less than 1/2 of 1% (0.42%) out
of range. Homer told me personally that 39% aft cg is safe. This seems to
bear out the experience of some on this list. If you went with the 39%, then
you would be allowed 23.79", which is acceptable. It's late & my eyes are
bleary, maybe yow might want to punch the numbers again yourself. Sure
couldn't hurt to put that ballast & slowly remove it to see if it is a real
or theoretical concern. ...Richard Swiderski
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Paule
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Paule" <dpaule@frii.com>
Several folks have in one manner or another asked why the cg is aft of the
limits.
The Firestar II currently includes these items: oil injection, inlet
silencer, exhaust silencer, "C" gearbox, prop balancing disk, fuel tank
gauge, one 5 gallon tank and strobes. It has the 7-rib wings and mechanical
brakes and cockpit carpet.
The plans that came with it specify a chord of 64" and limits of 20% to 37%.
In terms of inches aft of the leading edge, that's 12.8" to 23.68". That
weight and balance page is marked 1993, Rev 0.
I also own a slightly more recent set of plans that specifies a chord of 61"
and limits of 20% to 37%. In terms of inches aft of the leading edge,
that's 12.2" to 21.35". This weight and balance page is marked 1993, Rev
8-96. Both of these are from the old Kolb company. It is this aft limit that
is the concern here.
The empty weight and cg position is currently 357 pounds at 36.90 inches aft
of the leading edge. I weighed it myself.
With me, 5 gallons of fuel and a gallon of oil in the oil tank (total
capacity is unknown) and no ballast, the weight is 550 pounds and the center
of gravity is at 23.52". That includes me at 155 pounds and while I'm not
quite there yet, I usually am in the summer. This is currently the aft cg
condition.
I would like to add the second five gallon tank and the second seat
eventually, but those are not in the weight and balance (or on the airplane)
at this time.
Regarding the physical change to sweep the wings one or two degrees aft,
I'll need to build one bracket. It will be held on by two existing clevis
pins. No other change is anticipated except those I've previously mentioned.
While I have not discussed first-flight protocol, I can borrow a ballast pad
that will suffice for the first few hours.
Some people have given the impression that the center of gravity position is
primarily a trim issue. That's incorrect. The forward cg limit is usually
based upon control power available for take-off. The aft cg limit is based
upon stability. Trim devices, covered well in the archives, are used to
correct out-of-trim situations.
I did realize that this sweepback will very slightly reduce the lift-curve
slope. That changes the effective tail volume and very slightly increases
it, partially offsetting the reduction in tail volume due to the reduced
arm.
Dave Paule
FSII
Boulder, CO
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
DAvid...
One more thing....make sure you measure your wing for the chord...I remember
that on the weight and balance chart that came with my plans...the chord was
stated at something different than the actual measurement...cannot remember
just what..but it was a couple of inches difference than actual...never did
understand what that was all about...I made the wing correctly...as the
print called for...but that W&B caculation page had a chord number already
there that didnt match my bird....
Don Gherardini
FireFly 098
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
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