---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 06/19/04: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:29 AM - Re: Re: Drag, HP, Thrust Data From Flight Data (GeoR38@aol.com) 2. 04:33 AM - space (GeoR38@aol.com) 3. 04:50 AM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (bryan green) 4. 06:24 AM - Re: Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (jhauck@elmore.rr.com) 5. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Bob Bean) 6. 07:26 AM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Chiocchio, Stanley) 7. 07:28 AM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Chiocchio, Stanley) 8. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Chiocchio, Stanley) 9. 07:38 AM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Chiocchio, Stanley) 10. 09:02 AM - Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Don Gherardini) 11. 09:07 AM - Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (David Paule) 12. 09:41 AM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Kirk Smith) 13. 10:25 AM - Re: Amsoil new formulation. (Jim Gerken) 14. 11:53 AM - Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 15. 01:34 PM - aft cg (Charles & Meredith Blackwell) 16. 03:52 PM - FOR SALE ROTAX 503 DCDI , prop,etc. (Robert Doebler) 17. 04:49 PM - thrust (Bob Bean) 18. 07:05 PM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Edward Chmielewski) 19. 08:37 PM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Richard Swiderski) 20. 09:28 PM - Re: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix (Don Gherardini) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:29:18 AM PST US From: GeoR38@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Drag, HP, Thrust Data From Flight Data --> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com http://www.mmaa-modelairplanes.org/fun_stuff.htm Jack....what a great website this MMAA is .....I went to paper airplanes and was astounded. Um savin that puppy! George Randolph Firestar Driver from The Villages, Fl ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:37 AM PST US From: GeoR38@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: space --> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1087596610974&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724 Here is a lead to space travel for the average man.....er....kinda average millionaire, anyway. there seems to be a race going on between the good ol USA and Canadian private people. GeorgeRandolph Firestar driver from The Villages do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:21 AM PST US From: "bryan green" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: RE: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix --> Kolb-List message posted by: "bryan green" Bryan Green (Elgin SC) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Armstrong" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: RE: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix What I don't understand and maybe you could explain for me is. If this is a Firestar 2 built to specs why is the CG so far aft? ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:16 AM PST US Subject: Re: Re: Kolb-List: RE: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix From: jhauck@elmore.rr.com --> Kolb-List message posted by: jhauck@elmore.rr.com ------------------------------------------------ Browse the web by email! mailto:www@web2mail.com adding the web page you want as the subject line e.g. get CNN headlines with the subject: cnn.com ------------------------------------------------ > What I don't understand and maybe you could explain for me is. > If this is a Firestar 2 built to specs why is the CG so far aft? Good Morning Bryan G/Gang: Bryan G said in two lines what it took me a page not to say yesterday. Why the cg problem, if built anywhere near standard? I guess if anybody should have an aft cg problem, it should have been me. The FS had an 18 gal fuel tank behind the cg, 3 gal of oil, tent, sleeping bag, airmatress, and my clothes. My MKIII has 25 gal fuel tank behind the cg, a case of MRE's (28 lbs), 3 liters of water, tent, sleeping bag, air mattress, clothes, arctic survival gear, and on and on. Forgot, it has flown, quite well, with a Maule 8" diameter pneumatic tail wheel that weighed more than 10 lbs. Flying with a Maule 6" diameter solid rubber tail wheel at present. It weighs 6 or 8 lbs. What I am saying is, Kolbs do not normally have a cg problem. I am not saying, don't sweep the wings, reflex the ailerons, or whatever you want to experiment with on your own particular Kolb. It is your airplane and you have the priviledge to do what you want to do. However, it probably is not necessary to change, drastically, from the designer's configuration. Take care, john h ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:47 AM PST US From: Bob Bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: RE: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean What John is saying is that if'n he rolled miss p'fer onto the bathroom scales just before departure on one of his big adventures, ther'd be a crunching sound, springs a'poppin resulting in a coupla junk walmart scales. I think it's the mighty 912 that keeps the tail up. :) -BB do not archive jhauck@elmore.rr.com wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: jhauck@elmore.rr.com > >------------------------------------------------ >Browse the web by email! mailto:www@web2mail.com >adding the web page you want as the subject line >e.g. get CNN headlines with the subject: cnn.com >------------------------------------------------ > > > > What I don't understand and maybe you could explain for me is. > > >>If this is a Firestar 2 built to specs why is the CG so far aft? >> >> > >Good Morning Bryan G/Gang: > >Bryan G said in two lines what it took me a page not to say yesterday. Why the cg problem, if built anywhere near standard? > >I guess if anybody should have an aft cg problem, it should have been me. The FS had an 18 gal fuel tank behind the cg, 3 gal of oil, tent, sleeping bag, airmatress, and my clothes. My MKIII has 25 gal fuel tank behind the cg, a case of MRE's (28 lbs), 3 liters of water, tent, sleeping bag, air mattress, clothes, arctic survival gear, and on and on. Forgot, it has flown, quite well, with a Maule 8" diameter pneumatic tail wheel that weighed more than 10 lbs. Flying with a Maule 6" diameter solid rubber tail wheel at present. It weighs 6 or 8 lbs. > >What I am saying is, Kolbs do not normally have a cg problem. I am not saying, don't sweep the wings, reflex the ailerons, or whatever you want to experiment with on your own particular Kolb. It is your airplane and you have the priviledge to do what you want to do. However, it probably is not necessary to change, drastically, from the designer's configuration. > >Take care, > >john h > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:07 AM PST US Subject: RE: Kolb-List: RE: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix From: "Chiocchio, Stanley" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chiocchio, Stanley" UGxlYXNlIGRlbGV0ZSBtZSBmcm9tIHlvdXIgbGlzdC4gVGhhbmsgWW91LCBTdGFuDQoNCgktLS0t LU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLSANCglGcm9tOiBvd25lci1rb2xiLWxpc3Qtc2VydmVyQG1h dHJvbmljcy5jb20gb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIEJvYiBCZWFuIA0KCVNlbnQ6IFNhdCA2LzE5LzIwMDQg OToxNyBBTSANCglUbzoga29sYi1saXN0QG1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20gDQoJQ2M6IA0KCVN1YmplY3Q6 IFJlOiBLb2xiLUxpc3Q6IFJFOiBGU0lJIEFmdCBDRyBwcm9ibGVtIGFuZCBhIEZpeA0KCQ0KCQ0K DQoJLS0+IEtvbGItTGlzdCBtZXNzYWdlIHBvc3RlZCBieTogQm9iIEJlYW4gPHNseWNrQGZyb250 aWVybmV0Lm5ldD4NCgkNCglXaGF0IEpvaG4gaXMgc2F5aW5nIGlzIHRoYXQgaWYnbiBoZSByb2xs ZWQgbWlzcyBwJ2ZlciBvbnRvIHRoZSBiYXRocm9vbQ0KCXNjYWxlcyBqdXN0IGJlZm9yZSBkZXBh 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L3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL2FyY2hpdmVzDQoJXy09ICBQaG90byBTaGFyZTogICAgaHR0cDov L3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL3Bob3Rvc2hhcmUNCglfLT0gIExpc3QgU3BlY2lmaWM6ICBodHRw Oi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20va29sYi1saXN0DQoJXy09ICBPdGhlciBMaXN0czogICAgaHR0 cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL2VtYWlsbGlzdHMNCglfLT0gIFRyb3VibGUgUmVwb3J0ICBo dHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vdHJvdWJsZS1yZXBvcnQNCglfLT0gIENvbnRyaWJ1dGlv bnM6ICBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vY29udHJpYnV0aW9uDQoJXy09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT0NCgkNCgkNCgkNCgkNCgkNCg0K ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:16 AM PST US From: "Don Gherardini" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" HIya Gang... I finished up the FireFly repairs last nite....paint is dry and insurments reinstalled!....WAHOOO...now.....if the dang wind would just lat a bit...I am ready to get re-born...oops..I mean Air-born!!!! I have been following this thread that D.Paule started about the aft cg on that FSII with alot of interest....and I will tell you what I think, all the suggestions make perfect sense to me...and none are probably really un-safe. But the most drastic is obviously the sweep change....and I'll tell ya what Dave....I believe I would likely make theother changes first....so you can get the feel of the bird. here is a suggestion for a (possible) test program itenary... 1st....add the necessary ballast to the front of the bird and fly it before you make any structural changes. slowly remove the ballast a bit at a time and see if the handleing is affected as you suspect... I'll bet you a buck you will find that the specified "CG limits" are written very conservatively...as Hauck suggests...it is very hard to get that Kolb into an unsafe CG situation....regardless of what the scales say. This has been my exact experience with my FireFly. I have had it way out of CG 2nd...test the trim of those Flaperons and just what effect they have on the inflight "balance"...it will suprise you as to how good it works. 3rd...If you decide changes are warranted still...now you will have a much better idea of just what you need to accomplish if none of the above is satisfactory. And a sweep change after gathering the above experience might be attempted...it is a very interesting idea...and one I would love to hear the results of. BAsically This seems like the "safest way".....and of course...as long as we all proced in a safe method when attempting changes to out homebuilt flying machines..the results can be very satisfiying Good Luck DAve! Don Gherardini FireFly 098 http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:07 AM PST US From: "David Paule" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Paule" Several folks have in one manner or another asked why the cg is aft of the limits. The Firestar II currently includes these items: oil injection, inlet silencer, exhaust silencer, "C" gearbox, prop balancing disk, fuel tank gauge, one 5 gallon tank and strobes. It has the 7-rib wings and mechanical brakes and cockpit carpet. The plans that came with it specify a chord of 64" and limits of 20% to 37%. In terms of inches aft of the leading edge, that's 12.8" to 23.68". That weight and balance page is marked 1993, Rev 0. I also own a slightly more recent set of plans that specifies a chord of 61" and limits of 20% to 37%. In terms of inches aft of the leading edge, that's 12.2" to 21.35". This weight and balance page is marked 1993, Rev 8-96. Both of these are from the old Kolb company. It is this aft limit that is the concern here. The empty weight and cg position is currently 357 pounds at 36.90 inches aft of the leading edge. I weighed it myself. With me, 5 gallons of fuel and a gallon of oil in the oil tank (total capacity is unknown) and no ballast, the weight is 550 pounds and the center of gravity is at 23.52". That includes me at 155 pounds and while I'm not quite there yet, I usually am in the summer. This is currently the aft cg condition. I would like to add the second five gallon tank and the second seat eventually, but those are not in the weight and balance (or on the airplane) at this time. Regarding the physical change to sweep the wings one or two degrees aft, I'll need to build one bracket. It will be held on by two existing clevis pins. No other change is anticipated except those I've previously mentioned. While I have not discussed first-flight protocol, I can borrow a ballast pad that will suffice for the first few hours. Some people have given the impression that the center of gravity position is primarily a trim issue. That's incorrect. The forward cg limit is usually based upon control power available for take-off. The aft cg limit is based upon stability. Trim devices, covered well in the archives, are used to correct out-of-trim situations. I did realize that this sweepback will very slightly reduce the lift-curve slope. That changes the effective tail volume and very slightly increases it, partially offsetting the reduction in tail volume due to the reduced arm. Dave Paule FSII Boulder, CO ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:09 AM PST US From: "Kirk Smith" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" > The Firestar II currently includes these items: oil injection, inlet > silencer, exhaust silencer, "C" gearbox, prop balancing disk, fuel tank > gauge, one 5 gallon tank and strobes. It has the 7-rib wings and mechanical > brakes and cockpit carpet. A battery in the nose for radio, GPS, etc? Kirk ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:52 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Amsoil new formulation. From: Jim Gerken 12:25:22 PM --> Kolb-List message posted by: Jim Gerken >Time: 12:39:07 PM PST US >Subject: Kolb-List: Amsoil new formulation. >From: "Gray, Mark" >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Gray, Mark" >I know this is going to open a can of worms but........ >I have been running Amsoil 100:1 for 5 years and am well on the way to >my second rebuild at over 450 hrs. >I was going to order a new case of oil and found they no longer offer >the Amsoil ATC 100:1 premix. It has been replaced with a new formula >with a flash point of less than half what it was. Not being a >chemical/lubricant engineer I am not sure if I am willing to try this >new blend. >Has anyone been running the new mix at 100:1? >Until I feel comfortable with the new formula I think I will switch to >50:1 Pennzoil. >Let the arguments begin! >Mark I ran the Amsoil Premix 100:1 oil, Mark. I did try it at 100:1 ratio and did not like the noise and roughness of the 582 under full load conditions, so increased the ratio, progressively thru experimentation to 70:1, and ran it there for a couple seasons. When torn down for inspection, there was no detectable wear, but there was a buildup problem. Amsoil was contacted by phone several times and by mail too, and offered absolutely no good help at all. Speaking with their technical people, I asked for the name of a solvent which could be used to remove the deposits. They suggested several, all were tried, for days at a time each in some cases, with poor results. Eventually, only mechanical means could remove these deposits. The fact that Ams has LOWERED the flash point may be a good thing. Maybe the stuff will burn up better. Or maybe I don't have a clue. Again, the oil did protect from wear very well. At the last inspection at 170 hours total time just before I sold the engine, the cylinders still had virtually new measurements, and cross hatching still clearly evident everywhere. You did not say which engine you are running it in. I have a theory that the smaller engines are run harder and hotter than the larger ones, and so buildup sometimes occurs in the 582 and 618 since they are actually throttled back for cruise, and run cooler from the liquid cooling jacket. Again, this is a theory. I have not tried the new formulation, and probably won't since the 582 went down the road and the BMW is running like a swiss watch on my Mkiii. Good luck. Jim G ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:02 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Wow This has been fun to listen too. There have been some real good ideas. The wing sweep idea sounds neat but changes a design that that is safe and strong. I don't know anything about aircraft structural design but I would stay away from it. Some one already suggested it but I moved my starter battery to the nose cone of my airplane and now I'm within the published CG limits. Dennis Souder told me once that Kolbs fly quite well with the CG further aft but the FAA kind of forced then into the published limits. This is probably why JH's airplane flies so well with a aft CG. I have read that as the CG moves aft that pitch stability suffers. For a while I flew with a weight clamped to the tail wheel spring to counter the higher than normal thrust line of my VW. I have lowered the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer and removed the tail weight. I now feel that pitch excursions in rough air are much less pronounced. Rick Neilsen Reduive VW powered MKIIIc ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:45 PM PST US From: Charles & Meredith Blackwell Subject: Kolb-List: aft cg --> Kolb-List message posted by: Charles & Meredith Blackwell Dave, Others probably know more about the problem, but would moving the seat forward be an easier fix than messing with the wings? It isn't huge, but I remember when my instructor had both of us lean forward in the seats it threw the trim all out of whack. And solo I have noticed a difference when I secure some weights on the other seat vs. on the floor. The MKII is a drain on the arm to fly solo without some compensating weight, probably dangerous too because letting go of the stick causes a slow nose up to an eventual stall. The difference of securing the 40lbs just about a foot forward makes a huge difference. If yours is slightly out, maybe a 3" cushion could move you forward enough to help and still allow you to use the seatbelts safely. And out of curiosity, what caused your bird to fall out of tolerances? Have you flown it with added weight to learn how it flies and tried decreasing it as you go? Seems like a shame to change something if you haven't tried flying it yet. Charlie in NJ, MKII 503, 3rd owner ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:30 PM PST US From: Robert Doebler Subject: Kolb-List: FOR SALE ROTAX 503 DCDI , prop,etc. --> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Doebler I'm selling a Rotax 503DCDI with: electric start/oil injection/b-gear box/remote choke/throttle & choke cables/Rotax oil tank with low oil sensor, and indicator/3 blade Ivoprop, ground adjustable, 62" prop/lord mounts/muffler/shielded ignition wires/ignition switch/kill switch/upgraded regulator/2-5 gallon fuel tanks/solid-state fuel sensor with gauge/dual EGT/dual CHT/mini tach& hour meter/gel battery/manuals. Total hours are 51. I haven't flown in a couple of years, so decided to part out firestar II. No crash damage or abuse.It is still on ultralight, so come see and hear it run. Local only, too heavy to ship. Appoximately 35 miles NorthWest of Los Angeles, Ca. Bob Doebler 66 Dapplegray Rd. Bell Canyon, Ca. 91307 1-818-348-7075 doebler@sbcglobal.net ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:40 PM PST US From: Bob Bean Subject: Kolb-List: thrust --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Bean I was enjoying that neat prop selector program put up recently. -A question: How much thrust would a generic MkIII, solo, need to fly straight and level at 1000'msl, standard day, at 65mph? A hp number would be good too. The selector shows hp in and out in addition to an efficiency number. -BB do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:54 PM PST US From: "Edward Chmielewski" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: RE: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Edward Chmielewski" Dave P./All, This FSII was weighed in the flight attitude, not tail-low, correct? Seems awfully far aft on CG for a plans-built bird. Ed in JXN MkII/503 Do not archive. > remember, > all. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:02 PM PST US From: "Richard Swiderski" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderski" David, Regarding your below post, you say 37% of the 64" chord is 23.68" which is what my calculator says. But then you said that 37% of a 61" chord is 21.35". My calculator says its 22.57". You presently are 23.52" which, if yow have the 61" chord would put you at less than 1/2 of 1% (0.42%) out of range. Homer told me personally that 39% aft cg is safe. This seems to bear out the experience of some on this list. If you went with the 39%, then you would be allowed 23.79", which is acceptable. It's late & my eyes are bleary, maybe yow might want to punch the numbers again yourself. Sure couldn't hurt to put that ballast & slowly remove it to see if it is a real or theoretical concern. ...Richard Swiderski -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Paule Subject: Kolb-List: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Paule" Several folks have in one manner or another asked why the cg is aft of the limits. The Firestar II currently includes these items: oil injection, inlet silencer, exhaust silencer, "C" gearbox, prop balancing disk, fuel tank gauge, one 5 gallon tank and strobes. It has the 7-rib wings and mechanical brakes and cockpit carpet. The plans that came with it specify a chord of 64" and limits of 20% to 37%. In terms of inches aft of the leading edge, that's 12.8" to 23.68". That weight and balance page is marked 1993, Rev 0. I also own a slightly more recent set of plans that specifies a chord of 61" and limits of 20% to 37%. In terms of inches aft of the leading edge, that's 12.2" to 21.35". This weight and balance page is marked 1993, Rev 8-96. Both of these are from the old Kolb company. It is this aft limit that is the concern here. The empty weight and cg position is currently 357 pounds at 36.90 inches aft of the leading edge. I weighed it myself. With me, 5 gallons of fuel and a gallon of oil in the oil tank (total capacity is unknown) and no ballast, the weight is 550 pounds and the center of gravity is at 23.52". That includes me at 155 pounds and while I'm not quite there yet, I usually am in the summer. This is currently the aft cg condition. I would like to add the second five gallon tank and the second seat eventually, but those are not in the weight and balance (or on the airplane) at this time. Regarding the physical change to sweep the wings one or two degrees aft, I'll need to build one bracket. It will be held on by two existing clevis pins. No other change is anticipated except those I've previously mentioned. While I have not discussed first-flight protocol, I can borrow a ballast pad that will suffice for the first few hours. Some people have given the impression that the center of gravity position is primarily a trim issue. That's incorrect. The forward cg limit is usually based upon control power available for take-off. The aft cg limit is based upon stability. Trim devices, covered well in the archives, are used to correct out-of-trim situations. I did realize that this sweepback will very slightly reduce the lift-curve slope. That changes the effective tail volume and very slightly increases it, partially offsetting the reduction in tail volume due to the reduced arm. Dave Paule FSII Boulder, CO ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:28:45 PM PST US From: "Don Gherardini" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FSII Aft CG problem and a Fix --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" DAvid... One more thing....make sure you measure your wing for the chord...I remember that on the weight and balance chart that came with my plans...the chord was stated at something different than the actual measurement...cannot remember just what..but it was a couple of inches difference than actual...never did understand what that was all about...I made the wing correctly...as the print called for...but that W&B caculation page had a chord number already there that didnt match my bird.... Don Gherardini FireFly 098 http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm