Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:51 AM - Re: Forced Landings (Richard Pike)
2. 05:16 AM - Re: Forced Landings (Thom Riddle)
3. 05:34 AM - Re: Forced Landings (Thom Riddle)
4. 06:55 AM - Wooden Wheels (Doug Lawton)
5. 08:07 AM - Re: Forced Landings (Jack & Louise Hart)
6. 09:12 AM - Re: Forced Landings (PATRICK LADD)
7. 09:14 AM - Re: Forced Landings (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
8. 10:09 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 08/27/04 (Vic)
9. 10:47 AM - Broken plane (Airgriff2@aol.com)
10. 12:44 PM - Re: Broken plane (robert bean)
11. 03:39 PM - static charge (Charles & Meredith Blackwell)
12. 05:29 PM - YAHOO, She Flew! (Dave & Eve Pelletier)
13. 05:57 PM - Re: YAHOO, She Flew! (Dave & Eve Pelletier)
14. 06:07 PM - Re: Fuel transfer (John Hauck)
15. 07:13 PM - Re: YAHOO, She Flew! (Denny Rowe)
16. 07:23 PM - Re: Mk3/912 flight test (John Hauck)
17. 07:26 PM - Re: Forced Landings (John Hauck)
18. 07:30 PM - Re: Forced Landings (John Hauck)
19. 08:15 PM - Re: Fuel transfer/fly in (Dan Charter)
20. 08:19 PM - Re: Forced Landings (Jack & Louise Hart)
21. 09:19 PM - Re: Forced Landings (John Hauck)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Forced Landings |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
In a MKIII, you always shoot your approach at least 15 - 20 mph faster than
stall because at too slow a speed, you can't get it to rotate for flare, it
will mush out the bottom. Also, the stall speed is not very different with
flaps than without, however with flaps, the float down the runway in ground
effect is drastically reduced. So stalling when you retract the flaps is
not much of a worry unless you are shooting the approach too slow. But I
wouldn't retract them at 5' off the runway, more like 100' up.
I had an oil line get blocked a couple years ago and seized an engine, had
a passenger, used Rick's method and it worked great.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
At 01:39 AM 8/29/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "garvelink" <link@cdc.net>
>
>I would like to clarify something. I am a pivate pilot with about 120 hrs
>of time just enought to be dangerous. I recall in traning that to take your
>flaps off could be very dangerous close to the ground at least in a 150 or
>172.. the reason being is that the plane will fly at a slower speed with
>flaps on and when you talk them off you could induce a stall.
>
>Steve Garvelink
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride@comcast.net>
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Forced Landings
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Duncan McBride"
><duncanmcbride@comcast.net>
> >
> > The key is to make the emergency landing just like every other landing you
> > have been making for the last few years. If you work the flaps on the
> > approach and retract them when you have made the spot, then an emergency
> > landing should follow the same routine. Richard's successful outcome
>proves
> > this method.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
> > To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Kolb-List: Forced Landings
> >
> >
> > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen"
> > <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
> > >
> > > Duncan asked why I retracted the flaps just before my forced landing and
>I
> > never responded.
> > >
> > > My theory is that most of us normally carry some power all the way into
> > landing. In a forced situation the no flap landing is closer to a normal
> > flaps with power landing. Yes as we you get more proficient it might be
>best
> > to all our normal landings with flaps and no power? I figure it is best to
> > do your forced landing as close to normal as possible. Also it takes a
> > really deft hand to rotate at the right split second to get a good landing
> > with no power and some/full flaps. In a forced landing situation most of
>us
> > are already stressed and don't need to add to it the need for such precise
> > timing for rotation. The idea is that with no flaps you will have some
>float
> > time so that you can grease it in with the tail touching just before the
> > main gear. You do have a slightly higher landing speed but in a my forced
> > landing situation I think I was able to slow the plane down more than I
> > would have been able to if I had left the flaps on.
> > >
> > > Again my technique is use flaps to make the field or landing spot then
> > retract them all the way for landing. Hey it worked for me!
> > >
> > > My $.02 worth
> > >
> > > Rick Neilsen
> > > Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Forced Landings |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
This is certainly true in many aircraft, such as Kolbs which cannot be landed at
stall angle of attack without hitting the tail hard first.
However, there are many aircraft which are configured in such a way that they can
be landed at stall AOA with full flaps. I routinely land our Cherokee with
full flaps, idle power, and stall AOA when doing "short field" landings. I also,
use a high hot approach with no power(idle) all the way down final and slip
if necessary in the FireStar (no flaps available), but of course round out in
three point stance well above stall speed and wait for the speed to burn off
as the runway slips on and on behind me. So far, I've not had an engine failure
but just so I'd know what it glided like w/o power, I killed the engine on final
above the numbers on a long (for Kolb) runway. The glide was only a little
steeper than at idle, but the silence was a bit shocking for a none glider pilot
used to the confidence inspiring Rotax hum.
do not archive
Thom in Buffalo
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Forced Landings |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
Stall is a function of angle of attack(AOA) and airspeed is just a proxy for AOA.
If you are in a good landing AOA for a Kolb, you are not near stall AOA, with
or without flaps. Conversely, if you are anywhere near stall AOA(w/ or w/o
flaps) near the ground you are going to land tail wheel first, and probably hard.
C-150s and most tricycle gear GA airplanes are not configured like this, so what
you said about the C-150 is indeed valid for those types of planes. This is
reason enough for a GA pilot (no matter how many hours logged) to get transition
training or at lest some very good coaching and guidance before soloing a Kolb.
Blindly applying GA style TO/landing techniques to Kolbs or other UL type
aircraft can be hazardous. Neither is difficult but they are just different.The
more different kinds of aircraft one flies the better able he is able to quickly
and safely transition from one to another.
Thom in Buffalo
Message 4
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Doug Lawton" <skyrider2@earthlink.net>
Ouch.......
Doug
Do Not Archive
Now if 'ol what's-his-name, out west there... can get HIS act together... we
may have yet another MkIII flying... I heard the set of tires he had on it
dry rotted off and he is presently waiting for new ones... and it gets worse
because 'ya gotta realize that the rotten set were replacements for the
original wooden wheels that Kolb was putting on 'em back when he ordered his
kit...
Beauford
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Forced Landings |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
At 08:16 AM 8/29/04 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>
>This is certainly true in many aircraft, such as Kolbs which cannot be landed
at stall angle of attack without hitting the tail hard first.
>
Thom, & FireFlyers
From my one bean field engine out landing experience, it was not a bad thing
that the tail wheel hit first. You want to spill off as much speed as
possible before touching down. By touching the FireFly tail wheel first you
off load about sixty pounds from the main gear and the wing. With small
wheels this can make a difference between the wheels floating or digging
into soft dirt.
Modification of the FireFly flaperon activation lever and de dent system
allows the setting of any desired flaperon angle. I have found that 4-5
degrees of flaperon lets the FireFly three point. It rotates nicely and
gives sufficient ground effect float time to get it on down before the speed
spills to where the mush starts.
IMHO - If one practices high energy approaches to and low energy landings
through ground effect, you can minimize the landing gear loads. This may
not be so important on improved landing strips, but it can prevent or reduce
damage from landing on unimproved strips. One can lower the landing speed
by touching the tail wheel first.
You can check this out for your self by using a long runway on a calm wind
day. On take off and with no flaperons, hold the stick back against the
stop, and slowly advance the throttle. Watch the airspeed indicator. At
some point the wing will generate sufficient lift for the plane to fly in
ground effect. Note the airspeed. Then reduce the throttle a little and
pull back on the stick until the tail wheel is on the runway. Note the
airspeed. While maintaining the stick back against the stop, reduce the
throttle a little more and watch the airspeed. Keep doing this until the
wing can no longer maintain the weight. You will find you can fly the
FireFly at a slower speed with the tail wheel planted than when it lifted
off.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Forced Landings |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
<<The key is to make the emergency landing just like every other landing you
have been making for the last few years. If you work the flaps on the
approach and retract them when you have made the spot, then an emergency
landing should follow the same routine.>>
Hi All,
I agree with the first part of this. The problem is that from 1000 or 1500
ft, which is the usual cruise level, you are under pressure.
First there are the few seconds of utter disbelief when silence falls, then
the frantic pushing the nose down as the speed decays and the recovery to
best glide speed. Then pick your field. I forget the mnemonic now but size,
surface and slope come into it then wind direction. If you have time,
cattle, which will eat an unattended a/c ( they love the dope), access, in
case you have to trailer out. Habitation, in case you roll it into a ball
and have to be retrieved from the wreck.
Of course in theory one should always have an emergency field picked out,
but how many of us actually do so?
If you can get the flaps down and therefore cut your landing speed so much
the better, but the difference in stalling speed is only likely to be around
5 knots so it is not crucial.
Playing with the flaps to position yourself on the approach is something I
am going to have to learn when I get my Kolb. My Challenger will sideslip
like a banshee and if you are high just crossing the controls will take care
of it.Recovery is automatic by centreing the controls. ( A requirement with
our section `S`) Because of the lack of side windage this won`t work with a
Kolb.
Twice I have lost power in the Challenger because the toothed belt drive
between the Rotax and the prop suddenly shed its teeth. This left the engine
screaming, a smooth belt and a rapidly reducing airspeed. The first time I
was at around 800ft and plonked her down much too fast but safe. The second
time I was already suspicious that something was going wrong and I was about
3 fields out at about 250 ft on the approach when it let go. No time for
thought. The field on the nose has GOT to be the one. Very rough field, full
of cows but again, safely down with nothing broken.
I don`t think that playing with the flaps in the last few feet in an option.
You will generally be too busy.
Safe flying
Pat
pj.ladd@btinternet.com
---
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Forced Landings |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
garvelink/all
When you reduce the amount of flaps you effectively decrease the angle of
attack of the wing. In most airplanes the decreased angle of attack is
enough that the wing will not stall because of the higher stall speed even
if you are close to stall. Remember it isn't just air speed that causes the
stall it is angle of attack. Reducing flaps feels like you are adding power
but watch out as you reduce flaps, you will get a pitch up trim change which
could lead to a stall. I don't remember exactly what I did but as some one
pointed out you want to raise the flaps at 100 ft or more so that you will
be able to stabilize you approach. Also you really don't want to be close to
stall on you approach to landing anyway. Again set it up so that you land
just like you always do. If you do all you landings full flaps with zero
power then disregard this advise.
I didn't plan it this way but when I got the tail wheel down first I felt
the beans grabbing the tail like a arresting hook on a carrier.
Again my $.02 worth.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
----- Original Message -----
From: "garvelink" <link@cdc.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Forced Landings
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "garvelink" <link@cdc.net>
>
> I would like to clarify something. I am a pivate pilot with about 120 hrs
> of time just enought to be dangerous. I recall in traning that to take
your
> flaps off could be very dangerous close to the ground at least in a 150 or
> 172.. the reason being is that the plane will fly at a slower speed with
> flaps on and when you talk them off you could induce a stall.
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 08/27/04 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Vic" <vicw@vcn.com>
I might be full of it but the way I fuel my Kolb is by placing the supply
can on an aluminum ladder and connecting a ground from the frame of the kolb
(bare metal) to the aluminum ladder. The problem with plastic is that it
will easily take a charge, especially when it is cold, but doesn't release
it well. This way the ladder is connected to ground, the Kolb is connected
to ground through the ladder and both tanks are connected to ground.
Reslults - no sparks.
I have seen fires started when people put plastic gas cans in the back of a
pickup with a liner and when they touch the fuel nozzle to the can a spark
jumps.
Do not archive
Message 9
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Airgriff2@aol.com
Went out to our small field in the Catskill mts to fly on Sunday and found a
broken Rans S 12 in one of the hangars. When I asked around , as to what had
happened, I found out that it belonged to a group flying up from VA. to a
fly-in at Edenburg NY. This plane had fueled up and was taking off and at 45 mph
(when it normally left the ground) the tail section started flexing up & down
and it didn't seem to want to fly. Thank God he was only about 4' up when the
boom broke off where it connects to the rear of the cage. The first also that
I've seen Warp drive blades sheared off. This plane had a little over 1100
hrs. on it. Myself, flying a MK3 which also has a boom configuration was very
interested as to what caused this failure. I took some photos and looked very
close. Having built my plane, I know how that area is reinforced with the "h
section" at that point. It appeared the S12 had a totally different set up. It
looked like one tube went from behind the seats to the rear of the cage and the
tail boom itself slid over top of that tube 4 or 5" as it entered the rear of
the cage and stopped at that point. Then there were some external brackets
which secured it. It seems that using 2 tubes which joined together at at some
point would always have stress at that point ? I'm glad we have a strong "h
section" at that point and also one tube from the tail to the socket behind the
seats. If you know anyone with a Rans S12, Please have them check this point
for any signs of cracking or stress.
Fly Safe
Bob Griffin
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Broken plane |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
The idea of telescoping one tube within another is ok as long as
the juncture is tapered. The end of at least one of them would have
to be cut at a double angle, preferably with a rounded-off end.
(durn electrical storms approaching again, time to unplug)
-BB. MkIII, N3851E, VERY low time, covered with pigeon resistant tarps
On 29, Aug 2004, at 1:47 PM, Airgriff2@aol.com wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Airgriff2@aol.com
>
> Went out to our small field in the Catskill mts to fly on Sunday and
> found a
> broken Rans S 12 in one of the hangars. When I asked around , as to
> what had
> happened, I found out that it belonged to a group flying up from VA.
> to a
> fly-in at Edenburg NY. This plane had fueled up and was taking off and
> at 45 mph
> (when it normally left the ground) the tail section started flexing up
> & down
> and it didn't seem to want to fly. Thank God he was only about 4' up
> when the
> boom broke off where it connects to the rear of the cage. The first
> also that
> I've seen Warp drive blades sheared off. This plane had a little over
> 1100
> hrs. on it. Myself, flying a MK3 which also has a boom configuration
> was very
> interested as to what caused this failure. I took some photos and
> looked very
> close. Having built my plane, I know how that area is reinforced with
> the "h
> section" at that point. It appeared the S12 had a totally different
> set up. It
> looked like one tube went from behind the seats to the rear of the
> cage and the
> tail boom itself slid over top of that tube 4 or 5" as it entered the
> rear of
> the cage and stopped at that point. Then there were some external
> brackets
> which secured it. It seems that using 2 tubes which joined together at
> at some
> point would always have stress at that point ? I'm glad we have a
> strong "h
> section" at that point and also one tube from the tail to the socket
> behind the
> seats. If you know anyone with a Rans S12, Please have them check this
> point
> for any signs of cracking or stress.
> Fly Safe
> Bob Griffin
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 11
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charles & Meredith Blackwell <wozani@optonline.net>
Slightly Kolb related.
The television show "Myth Busters" tried to set off a gas vapor filled booth
with a cell phone and had no luck, the nylon rubbing thing did not seem to work
either, but the gapped spark generator blew it up nicely. Fun to watch if
you catch the re-runs.
Also they looked into the myth of rapid decompression from firing a gun through
a pressurized plane wall, pretty uneventful even when it was a 12gauge shotgun
blast. I wouldn't worry about any of the 17 pistol packing pilots the FAA
allowed firing on terrorists during a flight.
Then they experimented on the myth of frozen geese at altitude breaking plane
windshields....
An air gun launched a 10lb. frozen chicken through the new plexiglass windshield
of a Cherokee at 120 mph.. Bam, right through. Then they tried a thawed chicken
and Bam, even bigger hole. They even got it to exit through the aluminum
of the body after the windshield strike. Don't know how the big cuisinart blade
out front would affect the results.
In my opinion they did not prove anything because how often do we encounter
chickens at any altitudes? Would have been more impressive if they used seagulls
or turkey vultures or even deer which have been my only near misses.
Charlie in NJ, MKII 503
Do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | YAHOO, She Flew! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" <pelletier@cableone.net>
Gang,
Many thanks for the advice I received from you guys on the list. Lots and
lots of great advice and help. I'm not gonna name names cuz surely will miss
someone, but you know who you are. Just Thanks.
On a sadder note, we lost two great guys yesterday. Mike Corradi and Bob Sweginnis
were killed practicing formation flying in American Champion stunt planes.
Both pilots had thousands of hours of experience and were instructor pilots
at Embry Riddle AU. Mike was a Master-Chief Flight Instructor with an Aerobatic
Designation and Bob was an Aircraft Accident Investigation and Safety
Educator as well as a Systems Safety Engineer. Mike was to be the Air Boss at
the Prescott Air Fair in October and I talked to him Thursday evening about how
he wanted to handle the Ultralight fly bys. Great guys now gone!
AzDave
Do Not Archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: YAHOO, She Flew! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" <pelletier@cableone.net>
?????
Dunno why the first part of this message didn't print, but here is the gist
of what I said: I've been re-covering the wings, flaps, ailerons and tail
feathers for the past six months. Took the MK III out yesterday and today.
Taxiied slow, then high speed taxi, then crow hops, then a few times around
the pattern shooting touch and gos, and finally at altitude with stalls and
stress testing stuff, all with inspections between each phase. Checked out
back in the air after six months. A total of four hours in the air for the
past two days. :-)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" <pelletier@cableone.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: YAHOO, She Flew!
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave & Eve Pelletier"
<pelletier@cableone.net>
>
> Gang,
>
>
> Many thanks for the advice I received from you guys on the list. Lots
and lots of great advice and help. I'm not gonna name names cuz surely will
miss someone, but you know who you are. Just Thanks.
>
> On a sadder note, we lost two great guys yesterday. Mike Corradi and
Bob Sweginnis were killed practicing formation flying in American Champion
stunt planes. Both pilots had thousands of hours of experience and were
instructor pilots at Embry Riddle AU. Mike was a Master-Chief Flight
Instructor with an Aerobatic Designation and Bob was an Aircraft Accident
Investigation and Safety Educator as well as a Systems Safety Engineer.
Mike was to be the Air Boss at the Prescott Air Fair in October and I talked
to him Thursday evening about how he wanted to handle the Ultralight fly
bys. Great guys now gone!
>
> AzDave
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel transfer |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
| people fueling have a fire extinguisher real handy along side the
plane I
| don't. But we're supposed to. Dan Charter
| > Should we also carry this ground rod around with us when we fly
Xcountry
| > like John H. does and pound it in the ground at every fuel stop?
Kirk
Hi Dan/Kirk (Snuffy)/All:
Have had a Halon fire extinguisher on board my airplanes since 1987,
when I first flew my Firestar. There is also one on board my MKIII,
and has been since her first flight Mar 1992.
I don't use any type ground wire system when I fuel my airplane out of
plastic 5 gal cans, which I have done since Ultrastar days in 1984.
With all the clamps, wiring, rods, and other paraphernalia you all are
talking about, seems you may be creating more spark hazard that way
than using the system most of us use. That is, dumping the gas in the
plane. Hope mine does not blow up next time I add 5 or 10 gals.
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: YAHOO, She Flew! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
> Gang,
>
>
> Many thanks for the advice I received from you guys on the list. Lots
and lots of great advice and help. I'm not gonna name names cuz surely will
miss someone, but you know who you are. Just Thanks.
>
> On a sadder note, we lost two great guys yesterday. Mike Corradi and
Bob Sweginnis were killed practicing formation flying in American Champion
stunt planes. Both pilots had thousands of hours of experience and were
instructor pilots at Embry Riddle AU. Mike was a Master-Chief Flight
Instructor with an Aerobatic Designation and Bob was an Aircraft Accident
Investigation and Safety Educator as well as a Systems Safety Engineer.
Mike was to be the Air Boss at the Prescott Air Fair in October and I talked
to him Thursday evening about how he wanted to handle the Ultralight fly
bys. Great guys now gone!
>
> AzDave
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> Dave,
Congratulations on your first flight, how about some details?
Sorry to hear about the tragedy. :-( This flying stuff is serious!
You all be careful out there!
Denny Rowe
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Mk3/912 flight test |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
This flight was also gave me a chance to see if she could be made to
fly hands-off. At 4400 rpm using the Kolb pitch trim, the John H.
rudder tab and the bungy aileron trim she would do it for a while but
still needed an occasional nudge. 'Need to try it again after the prop
pitch is increased.
FireFly/enclosed trailer for sale
Duane/All:
If your MKIII is built according to plans, she will never fly hands
off for more than a few seconds at a time. It is an unstable aircraft
and must be flown all the time. I like that way. Would have a hard
time staying awake is I could set my MKIII up and let it fly on
course, hands off.
When I trimmed out, I am looking for neutral stick pressure only,
flying straight and level.
Take care,
john h
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Forced Landings |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
The glide was only a little steeper than at idle, but the silence was
a bit shocking for a none glider pilot used to the confidence
inspiring Rotax hum.
| Thom in Buffalo
Thom/All:
Seems your airplane flies differently than most of the Kolbs I have
flown dead stick. Normally, glide is greatly increased with dead
stick over gliding with engine and prop turning at idle rpm.
Doesn't the idling prop act similar to a very large disc being pulled
through the air? acting like a big air brake?
Take care,
john h
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Forced Landings |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
| You will find you can fly the
| FireFly at a slower speed with the tail wheel planted than when it
lifted
| off.
|
| Jack B. Hart FF004
Jack/All:
Don't you lose pitch control once the tail wheel is on the ground?
If you have the mains in the air and the tail wheel on the ground
during landing, don't the wings stall and plop the mains down pretty
hard?
john h
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel transfer/fly in |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dan Charter" <lndc@fnbcnet.com>
You're right about the grounding thing. I don't know anybody who does, But
someone asked. I did drive the 200+ miles to the fly in. Ran into Oly,Mark
and got to meet Ralph also. Good to see Oly got that plane up. I missed the
172 show. You guy's really know how to have fun. We stopped out at pork chop
ridge to look at a j-3 kitten that was supposed to be 103 legal as far as
weight goes. Lots of miles. Loads of fun. Sure is a nice set up there. I
don't think I could fly the Firestar there and back in one day though. Do
not archive.
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel transfer
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> | How many
> plane I
>
> Xcountry
> Kirk
>
> Hi Dan/Kirk (Snuffy)/All:
>
> Have had a Halon fire extinguisher on board my airplanes since 1987,
> when I first flew my Firestar. There is also one on board my MKIII,
> and has been since her first flight Mar 1992.
>
> I don't use any type ground wire system when I fuel my airplane out of
> plastic 5 gal cans, which I have done since Ultrastar days in 1984.
> With all the clamps, wiring, rods, and other paraphernalia you all are
> talking about, seems you may be creating more spark hazard that way
> than using the system most of us use. That is, dumping the gas in the
> plane. Hope mine does not blow up next time I add 5 or 10 gals.
>
> john h
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Forced Landings |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
At 09:30 PM 8/29/04 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
>
>| You will find you can fly the
>| FireFly at a slower speed with the tail wheel planted than when it
>lifted
>| off.
>|
>| Jack B. Hart FF004
>
>Jack/All:
>
>Don't you lose pitch control once the tail wheel is on the ground?
>
>If you have the mains in the air and the tail wheel on the ground
>during landing, don't the wings stall and plop the mains down pretty
>hard?
>
>john h
>
John, & FireFlyers
With the tail wheel touching and spilling off or maintaining speed with the
FireFly in ground effect, one does not have to worry about pitch control.
There is plenty of aileron control, and with the tail wheel touching there
is no problem keeping it straight. Pitch is controlled by speed/throttle
position. If the nose gets a little higher than your liking, you can let
the stick go forward and bring the tail up into ground effect too, or you
can back off the throttle a little. If you don't, the FireFly will
accelerate like crazy. On deceleration, the mains may drop at most a foot,
but the wing is still providing some lift so the wheels do not hit hard. The
VG's may be helping some too. Adding about four to five degrees of flaperon
gets rid of the plop.
If you have access to a hard surface runway, you should try it out on a low
wind day. With a little practice, you should be able to fly the length of
the runway in ground effect with the tail wheel on the runway. It gives you
a super feel of how your plane reacts in and the importance of ground effect.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Forced Landings |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
on a low
| wind day. With a little practice, you should be able to fly the
length of
| the runway in ground effect with the tail wheel on the runway. It
gives you
| a super feel of how your plane reacts in and the importance of
ground effect.
|
| Jack B. Hart FF004
Jack/All:
I would like to see this flight maneuver demonstrated. Do not think I
have ever seen anything like it done before.
How does this maneuver improve the quality of a forced landing if it
is done with power in the demonstration and the forced landing is done
with dead stick?
I know the tail wheel has a lot of braking power when landing in deep
soft sand, as I recently did on the Arctic Ocean. Felt like a drag
chute being deployed. I also remember landing on a baseball diamond
in Bradford, NY, with the Firestar, in 1989, while attending the
Ultralight Flight Farm Flyin in Monterey, NY. The weeds were high
right up to the edge of the ball diamond. As soon as the tail wheel
got down in them, the FS stopped. Would do the same thing on takeoff
should the tail wheel in caught in the weeds after take off roll on
the ball diamond. BTW: Bert Howland and I had breakfast and coffee
every monring at the little service station/cafe by the ball diamond.
Bert landed his H2 Honey Bee right behind me.
Flying the factory Firefly at Sun and Fun and Oshkosh for several
years, I find that most of my landings are tailwheel first. Almost
impossible for me to do any kind of flare without hitting the
tailwheel first. However, as soon as the wing stalled, the mains
would plop down rather sharply. Really do not know whether or not I
was getting much braking effect out of the tail wheel. I do know it
was hard to get the Firefly to stop flying in the gusty wind
conditions we usually have at Lakeland. I normally flew it without
flaperons. I found the flaperons to be only slightly effective, and
decreased aileron control somewhat in windy conditions. Now I am talk
ing about rather gusty, strong cross winds, and turbulence created by
Mother Nature and also the multitude of other single and two place ULs
and light planes that are constantly landing and taking off at Sun and
Fun's Paradise City. If you have flown down at Sun and Fun when the
traffic gets heavy, you know what I mean. I much prefer the flap
system on my MKIII.
Take care,
john h
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