Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:47 AM - Re: Prop Calculations (Jerry Curtin)
2. 10:16 AM - Re: Harley's and Kolbs .... (George E. Thompson)
3. 10:43 AM - Re: Airport Access (PATRICK LADD)
4. 11:02 AM - Re: Hull insurance on non flying MKIII (jerb)
5. 11:08 AM - Re: Airport Access (dama@mindspring.com)
6. 01:17 PM - Re: Airport Access (PATRICK LADD)
7. 01:31 PM - Re: Airport Access (kfackler)
8. 02:01 PM - Re: Airport Access (Kirk Smith)
9. 02:24 PM - Re: Harley's and Kolbs .... (HShack@aol.com)
10. 03:00 PM - Re: Hull insurance on non flying MKIII (Larry Bourne)
11. 03:56 PM - harley (Paul Petty)
12. 04:55 PM - Re: harley (Kirk Smith)
13. 06:42 PM - Re: Hurricane (Richard Swiderwski)
14. 11:51 PM - Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Calculations |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jerry Curtin" <jcurtin@cableone.net>
George, Thank you for your email. For the first time, I totally understand
why and how we determine the proper size prop for an application. This will
help me greatly in my decisions on my project. Jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Bass" <gtb@commspeed.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Prop Calculations
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "George Bass" <gtb@commspeed.net>
>
> Since there is always some discussion, from
> time-to-time, regarding propellers & their
> performance & sizes, I thought I should pass
> this along (copied from another e-mail list).
>
> I hope it doesn't cloud the air anymore, but,
> may actually help some of us to understand
> more about some of the equipment we use.
>
> ---------------- Begin forwarded message ------------------
> I "borrowed" this post, made by Robert
> Metzler to the Engines-UL group. It is
> very good. I am trying to determine the
> absolute best prop for my MZ 202 on the
> Tiger Cub right now.
>
> BlueMax
>
> --- In engines-ul@yahoogroups.com,
> Robert Metzler <sleepy6@a...> wrote:
>
> Generally, the larger the diameter of the prop, the more
> efficient it will be. As airspeed increases, efficiency
> loss becomes less, but, at UL & SP speeds it is very
> important to use as large a diameter as possible. Of
> course, you still need clearance at the prop tips, so we
> have a physical limitation to consider.
>
> Be very cautious if a prop supplier recommends a
> smaller diameter prop.
>
> Next, we have to consider the gearbox ratio. As prop
> tip speed increases, the efficiency gets lower & the prop
> gets noisier. For reasonable efficiency we want to limit
> the maximum speed of the prop tips to about 750-800
> feet per second, depending on which expert you listen
> to. Lets be conservative & figure 750 fps X 60 seconds
> = 45,000 feet per minute. For a 68" prop to turn once,
> the tips will travel 68" X 3.1417 = 213.6356 inches.
>
> 213.6356 inches divided by 12 = 17.803 feet. If we
> divide 45,000 by 17.803 = 2527.66 maximum prop RPM.
> If the maximum engine RPM is 6,800, we can divide that
> by 2527.66 to get a desired gear ratio of 2.69:1. Rotax
> offers ratios of 2.62:1, 3.00:1, 3.47:1 & 4.00:1 for their
> "C" box, so we'd choose 2.62:1. Change those figures
> above to fit your prop diameter.
>
> Be very cautious of a supplier that recommends a ratio
> different from what you calculated.
>
> The "C" box has a maximum allowable mass moment of
> inertia of 6000 KGCM2, which may limit the size of the
> prop you can use. Ask the prop supplier, what the
> mass moment of inertia figure is for the prop that he is
> recommending. Then, ask him if you can return the
> prop if his figure is wrong. There have been cases of
> that happening.
>
> The prop has to convert the engine HP to thrust by twist-
> ing the blade so that the blade forces air to the rear. The
> more twist to the blade (called pitch), the more HP it takes
> to turn the blade to max speed. The amount of pitch that
> is required, is determined by the airspeed of the plane.
> A powered parachute is really slow, so the proper pitch
> on that prop would be very slight. A Titan, on the other
> hand, is pretty fast, so it would use more pitch on the prop.
> If both props were the same dia, the powered parachute
> engine would over rev, because of the light engine load.
> More blades would be required to prevent over reving at
> very low air speeds, very small prop dia, or very large
> engines. Generally, the fewer the blades on the prop,
> the more efficient it is. Look around at other ULs.
>
> Be very cautious if a prop supplier suggests more blades
> than you see on similar plane/engine combinations.
>
> Some other factors that will affect efficiency of a pusher
> prop include the amount of the prop disk blocked by the
> fuselage & the disturbed air flow into the prop from the
> fuselage & wings.
>
> UL prop manufacturers don't publish much info on their
> props, so we have no way of determining &/or compar-
> ing the efficiency of their props. We are somewhat at
> their mercy with their recommendation.
>
> They supposedly base their recommendations on past
> experience with your plane/engine combination, but,
> sometimes I wonder about that. Ask if you can return
> their prop if their recommendation is wrong.
>
> ---------------- End forwarded message ------------------
>
> I really do hope this is helpful. Sorry about length.
> Any comments from persons more experienced than
> I would be appreciated.
>
> George Bass
> P. O. Box 770
> Camp Verde, AZ
> 86322
>
> USUA #30899
>
>
> ---
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Harley's and Kolbs .... |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "George E. Thompson" <eagle1@commspeed.net>
That has to be a misprint. Thats more than a whole bike costs.
Az. Bald Eagle
----- Original Message -----
From: <HShack@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Harley's and Kolbs ....
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 9/30/2004 9:17:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> nazz57@yahoo.com writes:
> i was just at the Hog-Air website.. i wonder if
> one of those HD engines would work on a MK3? seems
> like they're loaded with torque and plenty of HP.
> weight wise, i figure if you can put a 912 or Jab on a
> MK3 why not a HD engine? ....... tim
>
> In "Ultraflight Magazine" [last issue], it said the weight was 214 lbs. I
> think it's too heavy.
>
> Said the cost will be $22,000 to $24,000. Too much for me.
>
> Howard Shackleford
> FS II
> SC
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Airport Access |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
<< We had 4 "ultralights" on the field. >>
Hi,
I would have thought that you come under the same rules, assuming USA and UK
laws are similar, as a shopkeeper who does not HAVE to sell his goods to any
particular customer.
The shopkeeper has goods on display, your airfield manager has space to
sell. In each case it is an`offer to trade` and if the seller does not wish
to oblige any particular customer, that is his prerogative.
I know that your are a litigious mob on that side of the pond but trying to
prove a discrimination case I suspect will only make the lawyers fat. It
would be cheaper to move.
In the early days here we had the problem that some airfields would not
allow ultralights to land. Often that was based on ignorance sometimes on
the fact that the discrepamcy in approach speed played hob with circuits,
and sometimes because ultralights pilots were not up to speed with radio
procedures and had not bothered to phone ahead for landing instructions
where fields allowed non radio a/c.
This problem has almost disappeared as ultralight speeds have increased and
the pilots have become more professional.
Cheers
Pat
pj.ladd@btinternet.com
Do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Hull insurance on non flying MKIII |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
This is an area I think the EAA is doing poorly in for its
membership. There should be an affordable insurance for some one to insure
just their kit value for loss in event of fire, storm, vandalism while
under construction. Theft might cost a little more.
I think if you subscribe to hull not in motion you'll find your going to
pay some noticeable percentage of the value plus they will force you to
take some liability coverage in case some one cuts there finger on it or
stubs their toe while looking at it.
jerb
At 04:29 PM 9/30/04 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: N27SB@aol.com
>
>Sorry to bring this question up again but,
>Bryan Melborn sold a used MKIII to someone that is not acurrent pilot but
>wants to insure it while it is under repair in a hanger and not being flown.
>Any ideas?
>
>Steve B
>do not archive
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Airport Access |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: dama@mindspring.com
The big difference here is that our "shopkeepers" are getting federal funding and
therefore they cannot be discriminatory as a public airport to who uses the
facilities.
Regards,
Kip
-----Original Message-----
From: PATRICK LADD <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Airport Access
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
<< We had 4 "ultralights" on the field. >>
Hi,
I would have thought that you come under the same rules, assuming USA and UK
laws are similar, as a shopkeeper who does not HAVE to sell his goods to any
particular customer.
The shopkeeper has goods on display, your airfield manager has space to
sell. In each case it is an`offer to trade` and if the seller does not wish
to oblige any particular customer, that is his prerogative.
I know that your are a litigious mob on that side of the pond but trying to
prove a discrimination case I suspect will only make the lawyers fat. It
would be cheaper to move.
In the early days here we had the problem that some airfields would not
allow ultralights to land. Often that was based on ignorance sometimes on
the fact that the discrepamcy in approach speed played hob with circuits,
and sometimes because ultralights pilots were not up to speed with radio
procedures and had not bothered to phone ahead for landing instructions
where fields allowed non radio a/c.
This problem has almost disappeared as ultralight speeds have increased and
the pilots have become more professional.
Cheers
Pat
pj.ladd@btinternet.com
Do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Airport Access |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
our "shopkeepers" are getting federal funding >>
Yes Kip,
I can see that would make a difference.
Cheers
Pat
Do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Airport Access |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "kfackler" <kfackler@ameritech.net>
Perhaps, but I believe that only applies to OPERATIONS at the airport, and
not to hangar space. As someone else rightly mentions, the rental of hangar
space is a business proposition over which the FAA has no say.
----- Original Message -----
From: <dama@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Airport Access
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: dama@mindspring.com
>
> The big difference here is that our "shopkeepers" are getting federal
funding and therefore they cannot be discriminatory as a public airport to
who uses the facilities.
> Regards,
> Kip
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PATRICK LADD <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Airport Access
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>
> << We had 4 "ultralights" on the field. >>
>
> Hi,
> I would have thought that you come under the same rules, assuming USA and
UK
> laws are similar, as a shopkeeper who does not HAVE to sell his goods to
any
> particular customer.
> The shopkeeper has goods on display, your airfield manager has space to
> sell. In each case it is an`offer to trade` and if the seller does not
wish
> to oblige any particular customer, that is his prerogative.
> I know that your are a litigious mob on that side of the pond but trying
to
> prove a discrimination case I suspect will only make the lawyers fat. It
> would be cheaper to move.
>
> In the early days here we had the problem that some airfields would not
> allow ultralights to land. Often that was based on ignorance sometimes on
> the fact that the discrepamcy in approach speed played hob with circuits,
> and sometimes because ultralights pilots were not up to speed with radio
> procedures and had not bothered to phone ahead for landing instructions
> where fields allowed non radio a/c.
>
> This problem has almost disappeared as ultralight speeds have increased
and
> the pilots have become more professional.
>
> Cheers
>
> Pat
>
> pj.ladd@btinternet.com
>
> Do not archive
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Airport Access |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
I can certainly understand an airport operators concerns in this matter.
Sometimes I wonder if I'll get sued one day.
Do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Harley's and Kolbs .... |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com
In a message dated 10/1/2004 1:16:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
eagle1@commspeed.net writes:
That has to be a misprint. Thats more than a whole bike costs.
Probably is the cost of the whole PPC it comes on.
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Hull insurance on non flying MKIII |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
I carry Avemco's builders' insurance, which is moderately priced and gives
good coverage.........assuming they pay off if needed. The policy cancels
when I achieve engine start. This may be a gray area in my case, since I
*have* started the engine, but couldn't allow it to run because of the huge
oil leak from the redrive.
Big Lar............about to pull Vamoose outa the
trailer, since Palm Springs temps are down into the 80's finally and it's
time to get back at it and wrap it up.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerb" <ulflyer@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Hull insurance on non flying MKIII
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
>
> This is an area I think the EAA is doing poorly in for its
> membership. There should be an affordable insurance for some one to
> insure
> just their kit value for loss in event of fire, storm, vandalism while
> under construction. Theft might cost a little more.
> I think if you subscribe to hull not in motion you'll find your going to
> pay some noticeable percentage of the value plus they will force you to
> take some liability coverage in case some one cuts there finger on it or
> stubs their toe while looking at it.
> jerb
>
>
> At 04:29 PM 9/30/04 -0400, you wrote:
>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: N27SB@aol.com
>>
>>Sorry to bring this question up again but,
>>Bryan Melborn sold a used MKIII to someone that is not acurrent pilot but
>>wants to insure it while it is under repair in a hanger and not being
>>flown.
>>Any ideas?
>>
>>Steve B
>>do not archive
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 11
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <Lynnp@c-gate.net>
Kolbers,
The Hog-air engine complete with redrive cost $8250.00. http://www.hog-air.com/motor-page.htm It is a twincam "B" engine used on the rigid mounted models. I has internal counterbalancers. Before I sold my last bike so I could build my Kolb I had a lot of spare time and a engine that came off one of my older Harleys. It was the EVO 80 cid version. I made a redrive for it and ran it up several times with a wood prop. Was a lot of fun and kept me busy and out of jail but proved they are to heavy and have too much vibration at certain rpms. Guess I just had a hard time letting go......The "B" engine however would be great anything say Piper Cub on up. They even put one on a Wright Flyer!
Paul Petty
Building Ms. Dixie
Kolbra/912UL/Warp
do not archive
Message 12
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
The engine is only about 50 lbs heavier than a 912. Would be like flying
with a kid in the right seat all the time or like my buddy from Ray flying
solo in my plane. They got a nice torque and hp curve and lots of it. I
wonder about fuel consumption and what is the max rpm you could run the
engine at continuous? Shouldn't have any cooling problems as it would get
better air than on the bike I would think. I think a Kolb could handle the
extra weight better than say a Kitfox as the weight is basically over the
wheels and not out on the nose where it would have more leverage on rough
landings. That baby would sure sound sweet with straight pipes........snuf
Do not archive
Message 13
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderwski" <rswiderski@earthlink.net>
John,
Thanks for your concern. "Fortunate and blessed" I am indeed... I
have an Insurance Provider that is out of this world!
Richard Swiderski
SlingShot in waiting
Do not archive
Richard,
Sounds like you were very fortunate and blessed. Glad to hear the damage was
minor.
John Cooley
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Richard
Swiderwski
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Hurricane
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderwski"
<rswiderski@earthlink.net>
Kolbers,
We got electricity & phone back. George's FS & my SS survived #4!
Had some minor damage to the shop & will spend the next several weekends
picking up. County has been declared a disaster area.
Richard Swiderski
Ocala FL
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of H MITCHELL
Subject: Kolb-List: Hurricane
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
The big four have come and gone and we were lucky here in Tallahassee.
Jeanne passed through as a windy rain storm. My Mk3 sat snug in her hangar
and we didn't loose a single shingle from our house. Sure hope you boys down
south and west did as well and that the balance of this season is more
gentle to us all.
I am planning to go to my hangar on Wednesday morning for more stall testing
if the weather gets just a little better.
Duane the plane Mitchell, Tallahassee, FL
do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] |
DNA: do not archive
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Lister,
Please read over the Kolb-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Kolb-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kolb-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Kolb-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
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Failure to use the Kolb-List in the manner described below may result
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