Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:40 AM - Re: fall flight No. 2 (PATRICK LADD)
2. 04:33 AM - Re: fall flight No. 2 (Richard Pike)
3. 05:09 AM - Re: fall flight No. 2 (PATRICK LADD)
4. 06:17 AM - Re: fall flight No. 2 (Larry Bourne)
5. 07:20 AM - Re: fall flight No. 2 (Dan Charter)
6. 08:37 AM - Re: fall flight No. 2 (PATRICK LADD)
7. 09:47 AM - VG's (possums)
8. 11:11 AM - Re: fall flight No. 2 (PATRICK LADD)
9. 12:02 PM - Challengers (John Hauck)
10. 12:03 PM - Re: genetrators (possums)
11. 12:25 PM - Re: Challengers (J.D. Stewart)
12. 12:31 PM - Re: Challengers (possums)
13. 05:57 PM - First flight in a used Firestar II (David Paule)
14. 06:08 PM - FIRESTAR II WANTED (HShack@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: fall flight No. 2 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
<<My flying buddy and myself took off about 10 am to a place called Zim MN.
It's about a half an hour flight. The air was great>>
Hi All,
I am glad you had a great flight. This is what happened to me.
Sunday morning, 9 o clock. Beginning of October. UK. There was a fly in at
Henstridge, about 30 miles away.The main wind indicator in the area is the
smoke from the cement factory chimney about 8 miles away across the valley
from my home . Known as `Smoky Joe`. The smoke was going straight up. Great!
I rang Henstridge for joining instructions. Direction of circuit, QFE etc.,
and was told viz. was poor, ceiling around 800ft suggest ringing later.
Rang around mid day. Viz. 7 miles, ceiling 1500 ft. Its on! Quick look at
Smoky Joe en route to my strip. Smoke now at 45 degrees. Hmmmmm???
Pulled my Challenger from its hangar (my Kolb will be despatched soon??) The
hangar had its back to the wind so I was in the lee. DI`d it, pulled the
string and the 503 sprang into life. Settled to idle rather too fast.
Decided that I had better try to drop the revs a bit. Firkled with the carbs
for about 45 minutes but still running pretty quick. Decided to do a quick
circuit and if all OK.I would go.
Taxied out and as I left the shelter of the hangar she sort of wriggled a
bit. I suspected a flat tyre. Checked from the cockpit and all seemed
alright. Wind? Didn`t occur to me.
Lined up with the wind at 90 degrees to the strip, a fairly normal
situation, set the flaps, opened the throttle, took off.
Jeez! I was snatched straight up in the air and kicked through about 45
degrees as the wind hit like a torrent. I went up the climb, flying
sideways, like a salmon trying to get up a weir. Up, down, flung sideways,
up in the straps, down into the seat.
At 1000 feet things were a little quieter and from that height I could see
the top of Smokey Joe. The smoke was now horizontal, steaming away from the
chimney at a rate of knots, with great curly lumps in it.Oh Hell!
I struggled round half a circuit and tried to line up to land, crabbing
into wind. Thrown up and down, at 400 feet I decided to go round and try
landing from the other end of the strip which is sheltered by high hedges.
These usually provide protection from cross wind and produce a pool of quiet
air to land in. Opening the throttle I lurched back to about 900 ft and
tried to line up again. With the wind straight across the strip the
direction of approach made no difference, it was equally hellish. I made
five attempts to land, each one calling for a full throttle go round.
Finally I got too low to go round again. There was no option, I had to land.
I dropped into my usual pool of quiet, sheltered air. It was a maelstrom!
The curl over from hedges bounced me onto the ground and the sudden change
of wind direction jumped me about 25 yards off my line. Then I was back in
the air again.Bump, down again! Ruddering hard from one side to the other
to try to keep straight. Another bounce and rebound, a burst of throttle as
the supporting air seemed to vanish from beneath my wings and I was down.
I carefully taxied back into the lee of my hangar. Switched off and waited
for my knees to stop knocking. What was that smell. Fuel!
I look down and there is fuel swilling round my boots. Where did that come
from?. A fuel line must have shaken loose. Good job the engine didn`t stop.
I checked. Nothing loose. All fuel lines secure, fuel tank top screwed up
tight. I can only think that the fuel came back up up from the tank through
the breather hole while I was being put through natures tumble dryer. I have
flown in bumpy conditions but that had never happened before.
I considered driving to Henstridge instead of flying, but I just couldn`t
face it. I went home.
I am glad you had a pleasant flight.
Cheers
Pat
pj.ladd@btinternet.com
Do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: fall flight No. 2 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
I trust you will take this in the spirit it is given - (snicker)
(The Insidious Preacher strikes again)
But if you had been in church Sunday morning, hopefully
it wouldn't have been the wind that scared hell out of you... <grin>
Glad you got down without incident
Richard Pike
Pastor, Blountville Community Chapel
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
FSII N582EF under construction
do not archive
At 11:38 AM 10/10/2004 +0100, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>
><<My flying buddy and myself took off about 10 am to a place called Zim MN.
>It's about a half an hour flight. The air was great>>
>
>Hi All,
>I am glad you had a great flight. This is what happened to me.
>Sunday morning, 9 o clock. Beginning of October. UK. There was a fly in at
>Henstridge, about 30 miles away.The main wind indicator in the area is the
>smoke from the cement factory chimney about 8 miles away across the valley
>from my home . Known as `Smoky Joe`. The smoke was going straight up. Great!
>I rang Henstridge for joining instructions. Direction of circuit, QFE etc.,
>and was told viz. was poor, ceiling around 800ft suggest ringing later.
>Rang around mid day. Viz. 7 miles, ceiling 1500 ft. Its on! Quick look at
>Smoky Joe en route to my strip. Smoke now at 45 degrees. Hmmmmm???
>Pulled my Challenger from its hangar (my Kolb will be despatched soon??) The
>hangar had its back to the wind so I was in the lee. DI`d it, pulled the
>string and the 503 sprang into life. Settled to idle rather too fast.
>Decided that I had better try to drop the revs a bit. Firkled with the carbs
>for about 45 minutes but still running pretty quick. Decided to do a quick
>circuit and if all OK.I would go.
>Taxied out and as I left the shelter of the hangar she sort of wriggled a
>bit. I suspected a flat tyre. Checked from the cockpit and all seemed
>alright. Wind? Didn`t occur to me.
>Lined up with the wind at 90 degrees to the strip, a fairly normal
>situation, set the flaps, opened the throttle, took off.
>Jeez! I was snatched straight up in the air and kicked through about 45
>degrees as the wind hit like a torrent. I went up the climb, flying
>sideways, like a salmon trying to get up a weir. Up, down, flung sideways,
>up in the straps, down into the seat.
>At 1000 feet things were a little quieter and from that height I could see
>the top of Smokey Joe. The smoke was now horizontal, steaming away from the
>chimney at a rate of knots, with great curly lumps in it.Oh Hell!
>I struggled round half a circuit and tried to line up to land, crabbing
>into wind. Thrown up and down, at 400 feet I decided to go round and try
>landing from the other end of the strip which is sheltered by high hedges.
>These usually provide protection from cross wind and produce a pool of quiet
>air to land in. Opening the throttle I lurched back to about 900 ft and
>tried to line up again. With the wind straight across the strip the
>direction of approach made no difference, it was equally hellish. I made
>five attempts to land, each one calling for a full throttle go round.
>Finally I got too low to go round again. There was no option, I had to land.
>I dropped into my usual pool of quiet, sheltered air. It was a maelstrom!
>The curl over from hedges bounced me onto the ground and the sudden change
>of wind direction jumped me about 25 yards off my line. Then I was back in
>the air again.Bump, down again! Ruddering hard from one side to the other
>to try to keep straight. Another bounce and rebound, a burst of throttle as
>the supporting air seemed to vanish from beneath my wings and I was down.
>I carefully taxied back into the lee of my hangar. Switched off and waited
>for my knees to stop knocking. What was that smell. Fuel!
>I look down and there is fuel swilling round my boots. Where did that come
>from?. A fuel line must have shaken loose. Good job the engine didn`t stop.
>I checked. Nothing loose. All fuel lines secure, fuel tank top screwed up
>tight. I can only think that the fuel came back up up from the tank through
>the breather hole while I was being put through natures tumble dryer. I have
>flown in bumpy conditions but that had never happened before.
>I considered driving to Henstridge instead of flying, but I just couldn`t
>face it. I went home.
>
>I am glad you had a pleasant flight.
>
>Cheers
>
>Pat
>
>pj.ladd@btinternet.com
>
>Do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: fall flight No. 2 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
<<But if you had been in church Sunday morning, hopefully
it wouldn't have been the wind that scared hell out of you.>>
Absolutely right. I wished I was in church and not 1000 ft up in the air.
Pat pj.ladd@btinternet.com
Do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: fall flight No. 2 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Don't let'm hurt your feelings, Pat. I'd rather have an adrenaline ride
like that than be in any church anytime. Lar. Do
not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: fall flight No. 2
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>
> <<My flying buddy and myself took off about 10 am to a place called Zim
> MN.
> It's about a half an hour flight. The air was great>>
>
> Hi All,
> I am glad you had a great flight. This is what happened to me.
> Sunday morning, 9 o clock. Beginning of October. UK. There was a fly in at
> Henstridge, about 30 miles away.The main wind indicator in the area is the
> smoke from the cement factory chimney about 8 miles away across the valley
> from my home . Known as `Smoky Joe`. The smoke was going straight up.
> Great!
> I rang Henstridge for joining instructions. Direction of circuit, QFE
> etc.,
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: fall flight No. 2 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dan Charter" <lndc@fnbcnet.com>
I'm glad you made it down without bending your plane. I've seen 3 Challenger
nose wheels get folded back with not much of a bounce(not mine). I had 17
hrs in a clipped wing Challenger before I started flying a Kolb. I think
you'll like the Kolb allot more. Do not archive.
Dan Charter FS 1
----- Original Message -----
From: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: fall flight No. 2
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>
> <<My flying buddy and myself took off about 10 am to a place called Zim
MN.
> It's about a half an hour flight. The air was great>>
>
> Hi All,
> I am glad you had a great flight. This is what happened to me.
> Sunday morning, 9 o clock. Beginning of October. UK. There was a fly in at
> Henstridge, about 30 miles away.The main wind indicator in the area is the
> smoke from the cement factory chimney about 8 miles away across the valley
> from my home . Known as `Smoky Joe`. The smoke was going straight up.
Great!
> I rang Henstridge for joining instructions. Direction of circuit, QFE
etc.,
> and was told viz. was poor, ceiling around 800ft suggest ringing later.
> Rang around mid day. Viz. 7 miles, ceiling 1500 ft. Its on! Quick look at
> Smoky Joe en route to my strip. Smoke now at 45 degrees. Hmmmmm???
> Pulled my Challenger from its hangar (my Kolb will be despatched soon??)
The
> hangar had its back to the wind so I was in the lee. DI`d it, pulled the
> string and the 503 sprang into life. Settled to idle rather too fast.
> Decided that I had better try to drop the revs a bit. Firkled with the
carbs
> for about 45 minutes but still running pretty quick. Decided to do a quick
> circuit and if all OK.I would go.
> Taxied out and as I left the shelter of the hangar she sort of wriggled a
> bit. I suspected a flat tyre. Checked from the cockpit and all seemed
> alright. Wind? Didn`t occur to me.
> Lined up with the wind at 90 degrees to the strip, a fairly normal
> situation, set the flaps, opened the throttle, took off.
> Jeez! I was snatched straight up in the air and kicked through about 45
> degrees as the wind hit like a torrent. I went up the climb, flying
> sideways, like a salmon trying to get up a weir. Up, down, flung sideways,
> up in the straps, down into the seat.
> At 1000 feet things were a little quieter and from that height I could see
> the top of Smokey Joe. The smoke was now horizontal, steaming away from
the
> chimney at a rate of knots, with great curly lumps in it.Oh Hell!
> I struggled round half a circuit and tried to line up to land, crabbing
> into wind. Thrown up and down, at 400 feet I decided to go round and try
> landing from the other end of the strip which is sheltered by high hedges.
> These usually provide protection from cross wind and produce a pool of
quiet
> air to land in. Opening the throttle I lurched back to about 900 ft and
> tried to line up again. With the wind straight across the strip the
> direction of approach made no difference, it was equally hellish. I made
> five attempts to land, each one calling for a full throttle go round.
> Finally I got too low to go round again. There was no option, I had to
land.
> I dropped into my usual pool of quiet, sheltered air. It was a maelstrom!
> The curl over from hedges bounced me onto the ground and the sudden change
> of wind direction jumped me about 25 yards off my line. Then I was back in
> the air again.Bump, down again! Ruddering hard from one side to the other
> to try to keep straight. Another bounce and rebound, a burst of throttle
as
> the supporting air seemed to vanish from beneath my wings and I was down.
> I carefully taxied back into the lee of my hangar. Switched off and
waited
> for my knees to stop knocking. What was that smell. Fuel!
> I look down and there is fuel swilling round my boots. Where did that come
> from?. A fuel line must have shaken loose. Good job the engine didn`t
stop.
> I checked. Nothing loose. All fuel lines secure, fuel tank top screwed up
> tight. I can only think that the fuel came back up up from the tank
through
> the breather hole while I was being put through natures tumble dryer. I
have
> flown in bumpy conditions but that had never happened before.
> I considered driving to Henstridge instead of flying, but I just couldn`t
> face it. I went home.
>
> I am glad you had a pleasant flight.
>
> Cheers
>
> Pat
>
> pj.ladd@btinternet.com
>
> Do not archive
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: fall flight No. 2 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
<< I'd rather have an adrenaline ride
like that than be in any church anytime.>>
Hi,
at that particular moment, I would rather have been in church.( I think.)
Pat
pj.ladd@btinternet.com
Do not archive
Message 7
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
I put 90 of these little things on my wings and flew yesterday.
I didn't expect them to do a lot - so I put them on with the double
stick tape so I could remove them later. They're clear lexan
and the tape matches my wing color - so you don't really notice
them.
I was very impressed - and am going to leave them on.
On take off I can point the nose up almost 35 degrees
and hold the air speed just over 30 mph and it seems to just hang
on the prop, and it really does knock about 4 or 5 miles off your
stall speed.
Impressed Possum
possums <possums@mindspring.com> wrote:
Would like to order a set of you generators.
How do I do it??
Harrison Designs, LLC
Thanks, I look forward to your order! You're going to LOVE my VGs!
Joa
<http://www.landshorter.com>www.landshorter.com
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: fall flight No. 2 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Hi Dan,
<< I've seen 3 Challenger
nose wheels get folded back with not much of a bounce>>
I have always landed the Challenger as if it was a tail dragger, when I have
been in control of the landing that is. I think that has protected the
potentially weak nose wheel as I have had no trouble.
Looking forward to the Kolb. Apparently it is almost ready for despatch from
the States but I am waiting for the dealer to get 2 more orders so that 3
a/c can be despatched in one crate. Otherwise the transport charges are
horrendous. Even split 3 ways it is not cheap.
Cheers
Pat
pj.ladd@btinternet.com
Do not archive
Message 9
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
| I think that has protected the
| potentially weak nose wheel, as I have had no trouble.
Hi Pat/All:
Generally, in the US, one can always tell a Challenger pilot by the
cast, on the right leg, left leg, or both legs, that extends from his
toes to his waist.
Does Challenger still attach the nose gear to the fuselage with two
stainless hose clamps? Seems that in most instances where a hard
landing is involved, the nose of the aircraft is wiped off back to the
pilots knees.
Do they still use the cable between the gear legs to keep them from
over extending?
Does that have an adverse affect on landing in an unimproved area,
i.e., tall grass, weeds, and small brush? or is the aircraft
restricted to improved grass strips?
Take care,
john h
Message 10
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
At 01:11 PM 10/10/2004, you wrote:
>Hi,
> Did you really put 90 on the wings??????????? Must have been a tongue
> in cheek typo. Did you also order them rather than make them? The ones
> that I have were made by the shackelford instructions. Although I only
> have them on the ribs, there are only 8 per wing. It seems to accomplish
> the same thing.
>Larry
Yes I did - actually 44 on each wing - that is what the template called for -
two between each false rib - so I just followed the instructions.
They are pretty small and don't have any sharp pointed edges like the
"homemade"
ones do. ....But they cost a dollar apiece - airplane stuff cost more - right?
http://possums.photosite.com/vgs/
Message 11
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "J.D. Stewart" <jstewart@inebraska.com>
> Hi Pat/All:
>
> Generally, in the US, one can always tell a Challenger pilot by the
> cast, on the right leg, left leg, or both legs, that extends from his
> toes to his waist.
>
> Does Challenger still attach the nose gear to the fuselage with two
> stainless hose clamps? Seems that in most instances where a hard
> landing is involved, the nose of the aircraft is wiped off back to the
> pilots knees.
>
> Do they still use the cable between the gear legs to keep them from
> over extending?
>
> Does that have an adverse affect on landing in an unimproved area,
> i.e., tall grass, weeds, and small brush? or is the aircraft
> restricted to improved grass strips?
>
> Take care,
>
> john h
>
>
Message 12
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
At 03:03 PM 10/10/2004, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
>Hi Pat/All:
>
>Generally, in the US, one can always tell a Challenger pilot by the
>cast, on the right leg, left leg, or both legs, that extends from his
>toes to his waist.
>
>Does Challenger still attach the nose gear to the fuselage with two
>stainless hose clamps? Seems that in most instances where a hard
>landing is involved, the nose of the aircraft is wiped off back to the
>pilots knees.
>
>
>Take care,
>
>john h
Nasty ........ but all in fun
--Do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | First flight in a used Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Paule" <dpaule@frii.com>
Well, I finally flew the Firestar II that I bought from Ed Babovec last May.
The plane is a product of the Old Kolb Company. He'd built the Firestar
(nicely, I should add) and put the first 52 hours on the plane before I
bought it.
In case you wonder why I hadn't flown it before this, about all I can say is
that between my work, which is irregular and demanding, the fickle weather,
and the short sailing season here in Colorado, it was finally time now.
The plane has a 503, with the intake and exhaust silencers. It still has the
mechanical brakes and the steerable but not full-swiveling tailwheel. It
also has a 2-blade wooden prop, 66" in diameter.
As recounted earlier on these pages, the airplane is tail-heavy. I weighed
160 pounds, including my helmet and knee board, and still needed 45 pounds
of lead ballast to get the center of gravity to 20.62 inches, which works
out to 33.8% of the 61" chord length. The aft CG limit is 21.35", according
to the plans I bought in 1966, so that gave me a slight bit of margin. I put
this lead under the seat cushion, lashing it on securely with some marine
cord that I'd actually gotten for my sailboat.
According to the earlier plans that came with the plane, the CG aft limit is
23.68". Evidently, somewhere along the way, the aft CG limit changed rather
drastically. In any case, my actual center of gravity location was a good
one for this flight.
As mentioned previously some months ago, I plan to sweep the wings back
about 2 degrees with a simple bracket. This will shift the aerodynamic
center aft and I won't need the lead ballast any more. My gross weight was
right at about 600 pounds.
The day was calm and gorgeous. Real pretty.
I took off and climbed to 2,700 feet above the airport, did a little
familiarization airwork and stalls, and landed.
The airplane's airspeed indicator certainly read low most of the flight. I
didn't carry a GPS along on this first flight, and didn't bother timing my
path over the ground. But I really doubt that the stall speed is 10 mph at
full power, or 18 mph at idle. At 50 mph indicated it wouldn't climb. That
brought up another issue: climb performance seemed fairly dismal regardless
of the speed I flew. Of course, I was relying on the tach, but it reached
redline at full throttle and 45 IAS, which is reasonable.
The maximum rate of climb I observed (didn't time it) was about 450 feet to
the minute. Please bear in mind that my density altitude was probably about
7,500 feet here in Boulder, Colorado. The local airport is at 5,300 feet.
And yes, I felt that this was quite poor climb in these conditions. What do
you think?
It will be interesting to evaluate different props, as well as correct the
airspeed indicator.
I had heard this airplane in the air before I bought it, and it was
relatively quiet. From the cockpit, it was noisier than I'd like. A bit of a
surprise: the intake and exhaust silencers help me to be a good neighbor but
don't help me directly. Still, maybe they do; I've never flown one of these
without those silencers. Maybe it's worse. Next time I'll wear hearing
protection.
As for its flying characteristics, about all I can say is that it's a lot
different than my Cessna 180 Skywagon, Big Hammer. A lot different. The
controls give good feedback as to the airspeed, but there's little warning
before the gentle stalls. Visibility up and out to the sides is blocked by
the leading edge of the wing. That and the center of gravity would have been
improved if the cockpit had been moved forward, a non-trivial factory
change. The visibility was reduced considerably by various reflections on
the inside of the full windshield. I found that the rudder pedals were a bit
farther forward than fits me, and the heel brake pedals were very awkward.
My Firestar does have speed stability, as well as large pitch changes with
power changes. I didn't make turns tight enough to explore the maneuvering
stability, and didn't try any of the standard lateral-directional maneuvers
except for gentle turns. The airplane flew fine, and seemed entirely
adequate, as far as I took it.
To properly give thanks, I'd need to list names from here to some place past
the end of your patience. Ed, of course, and Gregg Waligroski deserve
special thanks. Dave Dooley, not on this email forum and not a Kolb pilot,
does too. Many of the regular contributors to this have helped out immensely
with their advice, sent here and thereby broadcast generally. They didn't
know that they were helping me, but they did. To everyone, many, many
thanks.
Dave Paule
FS II (that I've finally flown)
Cessna Skywagon, Big Hammer
Boulder, CO
Message 14
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| Subject: | FIRESTAR II WANTED |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com
A friend is looking for a clean, well built, flying Firestar II with a low
time 503 DCDI. We are near Edgefield, SC & would like something no more than
250 miles from there.
Please email details & price. Photos would be good, too.
Howard Shackleford
hshack@aol.com
[803]359-1136
FS II
SC
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