Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:59 AM - Re: Waynes accident (WillUribe@aol.com)
2. 02:12 AM - Back in the air (WillUribe@aol.com)
3. 05:15 AM - Re: Waynes accident (ul15rhb@juno.com)
4. 05:33 AM - Re: Back in the air (Rusty)
5. 05:33 AM - Slingshot (dale seitzer)
6. 06:25 AM - Re: Slingshot (ul15rhb@juno.com)
7. 06:45 AM - Re: Back in the air (John Hauck)
8. 06:47 AM - Re: Slingshot (robert bean)
9. 06:57 AM - Re: Slingshot (Rusty)
10. 07:07 AM - Re: Slingshot (John Hauck)
11. 07:42 AM - Re: Back in the air (Larry Bourne)
12. 07:49 AM - Fuel Tank Vents (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
13. 08:11 AM - Fuel tank vent lines (H MITCHELL)
14. 08:43 AM - Vibration (tom sabean)
15. 09:02 AM - Re: Vibration (John Hauck)
16. 01:37 PM - Re: Slingshot (Richard Swiderwski)
17. 01:59 PM - Re: Slingshot (John Hauck)
18. 02:03 PM - Re: Slingshot (Edward Chmielewski)
19. 02:35 PM - Test results (PATRICK LADD)
20. 02:51 PM - Re: Slingshot (PATRICK LADD)
21. 02:55 PM - Re: Slingshot (John Hauck)
22. 02:59 PM - Kolb Botched Landings (John Hauck)
23. 03:02 PM - Re: Slingshot (John Hauck)
24. 03:23 PM - Re: Test results (Bob Noyer)
25. 04:56 PM - Re: Lexan Glue Wrap-Up (Ron Lee)
26. 05:24 PM - Re: Firefly flown (Beauford)
27. 05:35 PM - : Re: Lexan Glue Wrap-Up (Beauford)
28. 05:35 PM - Re: Slingshot (Denny Rowe)
29. 05:38 PM - Re: Back in the air (Denny Rowe)
30. 06:20 PM - Re: Firefly flown (herbgh@juno.com)
31. 07:13 PM - Re: Slingshot (Richard Swiderwski)
32. 07:24 PM - Re: Slingshot (John Hauck)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Waynes accident |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: WillUribe@aol.com
Good Morning Ralph,
I'll take that wager ;-) Just kidding.
Here is whats on the NTSB web site about that SlingShot I think your talking
about.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of
this accident as follows: The loss of engine power due to fuel starvation
caused by a blocked, unsecured, fuel vent line. Contributing to the accident was
the pilot's failure to maintain adequate airspeed during the forced landing
which resulted in an inadvertent stall at a low altitude.
TESTS AND RESEARCH
The engine was shipped to Leading Edge Airfoils, Lyons, Wisconsin, for a test
run and further inspection. The engine was test run on October 16, 2001, and
was witnessed by a FAA inspector and representatives of the engine
manufacture. The engine was configured with the original aircraft's fuel filter,
fuel
pump, gascolator, and pulse pump. The original propeller was damaged during the
accident and a test propeller was utilized for the test run. No carburetor jet
adjustments were made prior to the test run. The engine was mounted on a test
stand and started without any anomalies. The engine developed full power at
6,500 rpm during the full throttle test. Both ignition systems functioned
without any anomalies.
No anomalies were found with the engine or its related systems that could be
associated with any pre-impact condition.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20010803X01594&ntsbno=CHI01LA237&
akey=1
Regards,
Will Uribe
El Paso, TX but working In Oklahoma City
FireStar II N4GU
C-172 N2506U
http://home.elp.rr.com/airplane/
> Woody,
>
> A few years ago there was another 582 powered Slingshot that crashed
> killing its pilot under the same type of conditions. The guy was on his
> way to Oshkosh for his first trip in that plane. The engine quit and he
> glided for quite awhile in a hilly area with very few landing options. He
> happened to change his mind at the last minute for another landing area
> and stalled it in a sharp bank. Dove it in hard.
>
> I would almost be willing to wager that it quit when he was throttling
> back on his approach to a local airport. Two stroke's will do that if the
> idle is not set high enough or it has "loaded up" from a long descent. It
> has happened to me a few times.
Message 2
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: WillUribe@aol.com
Greetings Kolb fans,
After waiting for almost a year I finally got my Medical, it is only good
until April of next year. Then I will need my Doctor to send them a letter on
how I'm doing with half a stomach. I have no idea what that has to do with
flying but if I want to keep doing it, I have to do what they say.
I flew my FireStar the day after a got my medical and also last weekend. I
must say after a year of not flying it was a joy to go up. The FireStar is
performing just like new after 209 hours. Now I have to get an annual inspection
on my Cessna 172 so I can take it flying.
Regards,
Will Uribe
El Paso, TX but working in Oklahoma City
FireStar II N4GU
C-172 N2506U
http://home.elp.rr.com/airplane/
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Waynes accident |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ul15rhb@juno.com
Will,
The FAA found an unsecured vent line that may have caused the fuel
starvation. I doubt that was the cause of the engine quitting, because a
vent line will move around under vibration. The pilot flew it for at
least 40 hours without any problems in this area. I still think that it
was the classic 2-stroke case of the engine quitting at idle after
running in cruise for a time. A month prior to the accident, I watched
him start it up and the Ivoprop was striking the back side of the cage
because was too large a diameter for the plane. It was idling very slow.
Ralph
Original Firestar
17 years flying it
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 04:59:00 EDT WillUribe@aol.com writes:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: WillUribe@aol.com
>
> Good Morning Ralph,
> I'll take that wager ;-) Just kidding.
> Here is whats on the NTSB web site about that SlingShot I think your
> talking
> about.
>
> The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable
> cause(s) of
> this accident as follows: The loss of engine power due to fuel
> starvation
> caused by a blocked, unsecured, fuel vent line. Contributing to the
> accident was
> the pilot's failure to maintain adequate airspeed during the forced
> landing
> which resulted in an inadvertent stall at a low altitude.
>
> TESTS AND RESEARCH
>
> The engine was shipped to Leading Edge Airfoils, Lyons, Wisconsin,
> for a test
> run and further inspection. The engine was test run on October 16,
> 2001, and
> was witnessed by a FAA inspector and representatives of the engine
> manufacture. The engine was configured with the original aircraft's
> fuel filter, fuel
> pump, gascolator, and pulse pump. The original propeller was damaged
> during the
> accident and a test propeller was utilized for the test run. No
> carburetor jet
> adjustments were made prior to the test run. The engine was mounted
> on a test
> stand and started without any anomalies. The engine developed full
> power at
> 6,500 rpm during the full throttle test. Both ignition systems
> functioned
> without any anomalies.
>
> No anomalies were found with the engine or its related systems that
> could be
> associated with any pre-impact condition.
>
>
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20010803X01594&ntsbno=CHI01LA23
7&
> akey=1
>
> Regards,
> Will Uribe
> El Paso, TX but working In Oklahoma City
> FireStar II N4GU
> C-172 N2506U
> http://home.elp.rr.com/airplane/
>
>
> > Woody,
> >
> > A few years ago there was another 582 powered Slingshot that
> crashed
> > killing its pilot under the same type of conditions. The guy was
> on his
> > way to Oshkosh for his first trip in that plane. The engine quit
> and he
> > glided for quite awhile in a hilly area with very few landing
> options. He
> > happened to change his mind at the last minute for another landing
> area
> > and stalled it in a sharp bank. Dove it in hard.
> >
> > I would almost be willing to wager that it quit when he was
> throttling
> > back on his approach to a local airport. Two stroke's will do that
> if the
> > idle is not set high enough or it has "loaded up" from a long
> descent. It
> > has happened to me a few times.
>
>
>
=
>
=
>
=
>
=
>
>
>
>
>
>
Now includes pop-up blocker!
Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today!
Message 4
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rusty" <13brv3c@bellsouth.net>
After waiting for almost a year I finally got my Medical,
Will Uribe
---------------------
Hi Will,
Sorry to hear about your medical problems. I've wondered why I hadn't seen
you around the list much since I've been back on it. Glad to hear you're
back in the air.
Cheers,
Rusty
do not archive
Message 5
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: dale seitzer <dalemseitzer@yahoo.com>
Chuck Veith had an intermittent engine failure due to
fuel starvation--he had the 2 5 gallon tanks plumbed
together per plans and had a vent tube running down
the site of the tanks but it was unsecured and
periodically made contact with the neoprene the tanks
rest on and sealed the tanks not allowing fuel to
flow. According to witnesses they heard the plane
engine quit and then start again--it probably did not
die completely. I imagine the planes was jostling a
bit and it came unstuck and then became attached again
blocking air and fuel from flowing. I apologise if
this sounds too anti Kolb but I worry that the design
is not as safe as other kolbs. How many Slingshots
were built? How many crashed? How many are still
flying regularly? There are many popular planes that
do not glide well--the Wittman Tailwind is a fine
plane but the pilots know they must plan well ahead
incase of an engine out.
Regarding engine stoppage in flight, the number one
reason is fuelusually some sort of blockage some where
along the path--it does not need to be a complete
blockage to have a hazardous result.
It is unfortunate when any pilot is injured in an
rough landing--I hope he heals quickly. Slingshot
pilots should practice engine out landings to keep
sharp. They fly very differently from the MArk III
and Firestars.
Dale Seitzer
Time: 08:05:53 PM PST US
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Waynes accident
From: ul15rhb@juno.com
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ul15rhb@juno.com
Woody,
A few years ago there was another 582 powered
Slingshot that crashed
killing its pilot under the same type of conditions.
The guy was on his
way to Oshkosh for his first trip in that plane. The
engine quit and he
glided for quite awhile in a hilly area with very few
landing options.
He
happened to change his mind at the last minute for
another landing area
and stalled it in a sharp bank. Dove it in hard.
I would almost be willing to wager that it quit when
he was throttling
back on his approach to a local airport. Two stroke's
will do that if
the
idle is not set high enough or it has "loaded up" from
a long descent.
It
has happened to me a few times.
I always say, don't close the throttle on a 2-stroke
engine unless it's
on final. They say to "fly the plane", but if it quit
because of this
and
there was enough altitude, I'd be tempted to give the
starter rope a
tug.
I can't remember if he had an electric starter or not
but if it did,
I'm
sure he pushed the button a few times before giving up
maybe
distracting
him enough to use up valuable time looking for a
suitable landing area.
Ralph
Message 6
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "ul15rhb@juno.com" <ul15rhb@juno.com>
Dale,
I don't see that you are anti-kolb in your reply. The Slingshot has a lot more
wing loading with the shorter wing and I'm sure it sinks like a brick.
It's like a 20' wing Titan, if the engine quits, it's going to come down quicker.
Do you remember if Chuck had an electric start on it? Did he have a radio and
announced his approach? How far was the area he came down in from the airport?
Didn't we say that he could have glided to it?
Engine problems in a Firestar is one thing, but a lot more serious in a Slingshot.
This is why I would want a Jabiru or 912 on one.
Ralph
-- dale seitzer <dalemseitzer@yahoo.com> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: dale seitzer <dalemseitzer@yahoo.com>
Chuck Veith had an intermittent engine failure due to
fuel starvation--he had the 2 5 gallon tanks plumbed
together per plans and had a vent tube running down
the site of the tanks but it was unsecured and
periodically made contact with the neoprene the tanks
rest on and sealed the tanks not allowing fuel to
flow. According to witnesses they heard the plane
engine quit and then start again--it probably did not
die completely. I imagine the planes was jostling a
bit and it came unstuck and then became attached again
blocking air and fuel from flowing. I apologise if
this sounds too anti Kolb but I worry that the design
is not as safe as other kolbs. How many Slingshots
were built? How many crashed? How many are still
flying regularly? There are many popular planes that
do not glide well--the Wittman Tailwind is a fine
plane but the pilots know they must plan well ahead
incase of an engine out.
Regarding engine stoppage in flight, the number one
reason is fuelusually some sort of blockage some where
along the path--it does not need to be a complete
blockage to have a hazardous result.
It is unfortunate when any pilot is injured in an
rough landing--I hope he heals quickly. Slingshot
pilots should practice engine out landings to keep
sharp. They fly very differently from the MArk III
and Firestars.
Dale Seitzer
Time: 08:05:53 PM PST US
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Waynes accident
From: ul15rhb@juno.com
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ul15rhb@juno.com
Woody,
A few years ago there was another 582 powered
Slingshot that crashed
killing its pilot under the same type of conditions.
The guy was on his
way to Oshkosh for his first trip in that plane. The
engine quit and he
glided for quite awhile in a hilly area with very few
landing options.
He
happened to change his mind at the last minute for
another landing area
and stalled it in a sharp bank. Dove it in hard.
I would almost be willing to wager that it quit when
he was throttling
back on his approach to a local airport. Two stroke's
will do that if
the
idle is not set high enough or it has "loaded up" from
a long descent.
It
has happened to me a few times.
I always say, don't close the throttle on a 2-stroke
engine unless it's
on final. They say to "fly the plane", but if it quit
because of this
and
there was enough altitude, I'd be tempted to give the
starter rope a
tug.
I can't remember if he had an electric starter or not
but if it did,
I'm
sure he pushed the button a few times before giving up
maybe
distracting
him enough to use up valuable time looking for a
suitable landing area.
Ralph
Now includes pop-up blocker!
Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today!
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Back in the air |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Hi Will/Gang:
Good to hear you are back in the saddle again.
Hope all turns out well on your checkup in April. Got to be able to
fly to Monument Valley for the Third Unplanned/Unorganized Kolb Flyin
in May 2005.
Take care,
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 8
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
Truly unfortunate that Chuck had such serious injuries due to a simple
matter of venting.
While building mine, and reading some posts on the subject, I glued a
small plate on
the inside of the belly fabric below my tanks with a pipe tapped hole
in it.
There is a barb fitting screwed into it and vinyl tube up to the top of
the tank.
My only concern was having positive air pressure at the orifice. It
worked out ok.
I recommend emergency landing practice to all. When the time comes you
will be
ready. -BB do not archive
On 26, Oct 2004, at 9:23 AM, ul15rhb@juno.com wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "ul15rhb@juno.com" <ul15rhb@juno.com>
>
>
> Dale,
>
> I don't see that you are anti-kolb in your reply. The Slingshot has a
> lot more wing loading with the shorter wing and I'm sure it sinks like
> a brick.
>
> It's like a 20' wing Titan, if the engine quits, it's going to come
> down quicker.
>
> Do you remember if Chuck had an electric start on it? Did he have a
> radio and announced his approach? How far was the area he came down
> in from the airport? Didn't we say that he could have glided to it?
>
> Engine problems in a Firestar is one thing, but a lot more serious in
> a Slingshot. This is why I would want a Jabiru or 912 on one.
>
> Ralph
>
>
> -- dale seitzer <dalemseitzer@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: dale seitzer <dalemseitzer@yahoo.com>
>
> Chuck Veith had an intermittent engine failure due to
> fuel starvation--he had the 2 5 gallon tanks plumbed
> together per plans and had a vent tube running down
> the site of the tanks but it was unsecured and
> periodically made contact with the neoprene the tanks
> rest on and sealed the tanks not allowing fuel to
> flow. According to witnesses they heard the plane
> engine quit and then start again--it probably did not
> die completely. I imagine the planes was jostling a
> bit and it came unstuck and then became attached again
> blocking air and fuel from flowing. I apologise if
> this sounds too anti Kolb but I worry that the design
> is not as safe as other kolbs. How many Slingshots
> were built? How many crashed? How many are still
> flying regularly? There are many popular planes that
> do not glide well--the Wittman Tailwind is a fine
> plane but the pilots know they must plan well ahead
> incase of an engine out.
> Regarding engine stoppage in flight, the number one
> reason is fuelusually some sort of blockage some where
> along the path--it does not need to be a complete
> blockage to have a hazardous result.
> It is unfortunate when any pilot is injured in an
> rough landing--I hope he heals quickly. Slingshot
> pilots should practice engine out landings to keep
> sharp. They fly very differently from the MArk III
> and Firestars.
> Dale Seitzer
>
> Time: 08:05:53 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Waynes accident
> From: ul15rhb@juno.com
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: ul15rhb@juno.com
>
> Woody,
>
> A few years ago there was another 582 powered
> Slingshot that crashed
> killing its pilot under the same type of conditions.
> The guy was on his
> way to Oshkosh for his first trip in that plane. The
> engine quit and he
> glided for quite awhile in a hilly area with very few
> landing options.
> He
> happened to change his mind at the last minute for
> another landing area
> and stalled it in a sharp bank. Dove it in hard.
>
> I would almost be willing to wager that it quit when
> he was throttling
> back on his approach to a local airport. Two stroke's
> will do that if
> the
> idle is not set high enough or it has "loaded up" from
> a long descent.
> It
> has happened to me a few times.
>
> I always say, don't close the throttle on a 2-stroke
> engine unless it's
> on final. They say to "fly the plane", but if it quit
> because of this
> and
> there was enough altitude, I'd be tempted to give the
> starter rope a
> tug.
> I can't remember if he had an electric starter or not
> but if it did,
> I'm
> sure he pushed the button a few times before giving up
> maybe
> distracting
> him enough to use up valuable time looking for a
> suitable landing area.
>
> Ralph
>
>
> Now includes pop-up blocker!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today!
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 9
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rusty" <13brv3c@bellsouth.net>
I apologise if
this sounds too anti Kolb but I worry that the design
is not as safe as other kolbs. How many Slingshots
were built? How many crashed? How many are still
flying regularly?
Dale Seitzer
----------------------------
Hi Dale,
No need to apologize, but I would have to disagree that there's anything
significantly less safe about the SS. The stall speed is a bit higher than
the other Kolbs, but the structure is also a bit stronger. In general, I
think we could say that risk tends to go up with performance, and the SS is
a higher performance Kolb, so there may be just a bit more risk. I'm
guessing that's why Kolb makes more than one model :-)
I would sure rather have an engine failure in the SS than my RV-3.
Cheers,
Rusty (maybe the only person who's owned two SS's)
Message 10
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
|I apologise if
| this sounds too anti Kolb but I worry that the design
| is not as safe as other kolbs. How many Slingshots
| were built? How many crashed? How many are still
| flying regularly?
| It is unfortunate when any pilot is injured in an
| rough landing--I hope he heals quickly. Slingshot
| pilots should practice engine out landings to keep
| sharp. They fly very differently from the MArk III
| and Firestars.
| Dale Seitzer
Hi Dale/Gents:
Thanks for your comments.
Why do you worry about the Slingshot design not being as safe as other
Kolbs?
Airplanes do not fly below stall speeds, no matter what make, model,
or design. I have flown a few Slingshots, finding nothing, as
pertains to safety, to worry about, when compared to other Kolb
models. The most recent two accidents, you all have been discussing,
seemed to have been caused by pilot inattention to adequate airspeed.
Easiest time to get slow on airspeed is in an actual engine
out/emergency situation. Looks like both these aircraft were
stall/crash accidents. The old red Slingshot, first one Kolb brought
to Oshkosh, stalled clean at 40 mph indicated, same as my MKIII. It
had 22 foot wing span, but flew, to me, like all the rest of the Kolb
models, especially the Firefly, which is a baby Slingshot with the
same wingspan.
Not only Slingshot pilots, but ALL PILOTS, should stay current by
practicing engine out landings. No need to be surprised when the time
comes.
I have not found any of the Kolb models fly any different from each
other except for maybe weight and roll rate.
Take care,
john h
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Back in the air |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
It's good to see you back, Will. Take care, and (continuing) good luck with
the FAA. Lar. Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <WillUribe@aol.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: Back in the air
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: WillUribe@aol.com
>
> Greetings Kolb fans,
>
> After waiting for almost a year I finally got my Medical, it is only good
> until April of next year. Then I will need my Doctor to send them a
> letter on
> how I'm doing with half a stomach. I have no idea what that has to do
> with
Message 12
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
I changed the subject line.
Food for thought. Fuel tank vent lines also need to be screened to keep out
insects or have temporary plugs with remove before flight flags attached. I
had my pitot tube plugged with insects during the build process. I keep
temporary plugs in every thing that is critical that isn't covered with
screens. My fuel tank vent is in my remote fuel filler cap. The cap doesn't
lend its self to being insect plugging and it gets checked frequently.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
----- Original Message -----
From: "robert bean" <slyck@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Slingshot
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
>
> Truly unfortunate that Chuck had such serious injuries due to a simple
> matter of venting.
> While building mine, and reading some posts on the subject, I glued a
> small plate on
> the inside of the belly fabric below my tanks with a pipe tapped hole
> in it.
> There is a barb fitting screwed into it and vinyl tube up to the top of
> the tank.
> My only concern was having positive air pressure at the orifice. It
> worked out ok.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Fuel tank vent lines |
Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:10:13 -0400
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
Thanks for reminding me that the fuel vent lines on my plane should be checked
for clogging. I used the standard blue 1/4' fuel line tubing for the vents and
poked them out through the bottom fabric. They have not moved since the day they
were installed. I think I'll add this item to my preflight and consider some
kind of bug-proofing the vents.
I have had the mud-daubers build a nest in a carburetor vent hole while I had the
air filter off for cleaning. The filter was only off for a day and the nest
was flush with the surface of the carb casting. It took me a while to find that
problem. I suspect the same thing could happen to my original Kolb double tank
vent set up.
If even one vent is clogged the other tank would be sucked dry, only air would
be going to the inlet of the fuel pump. The fuel in the vent-plugged tank would
remain locked up by a vacuum caused by the lack of venting.
Keep the odds in your favor,
Duane the plane Mitchell, Tallahassee, FL, Mk3c/912UL, 16.2 hrs
Message 14
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "tom sabean" <sabean@ns.sympatico.ca>
Well, I think I found the source of my vibration. Went flying this morning and
noticed the vibration seemed more prevelant when reducing power. When pushing
up the power, the vibration seemed much less. I started looking around to see
if I could see anything out of the ordinary. As I reduced the power through 4500rpm
I happened to be looking over my shoulder and was suprised to see the flap
push-pull rod suddenly start vibrating like a loose guitar string. It was going
up and down about an inch in the center and so fast it was just a blurr.
As I moved the power up and down I could see when the vibration started and at
what point it stopped.
Next step will be to try and stop the rod from vibrating. The rod is made from
aluminium per the plans but I'm thinking steel might be better?
Any suggestions??
Thanks,
Tom Sabean
Mk3X
912/Warp
Message 15
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
is made from aluminium per the plans but I'm thinking steel might be
better?
| Any suggestions??
|
| Thanks,
| Tom Sabean
Tom S/All:
My flap P/P rods are 4130 and not vibration problem.
Take care
john h
Message 16
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderwski" <rswiderski@earthlink.net>
Dale & All,
My SlingShot glides just fine. I routinely do full engine out
landings with it, often with a 360 turn added. I did have problems on my
1st few attempts. They were good landings, just short of my projected touch
down point. I would consistently land about 50ft short. I did not have
this problem with my UltraStar or MKII. What I came to realize is that
because of the short wing span or higher wing loading, induced drag is
increased at a much quicker rate than the longer wing models. High angles
of attack make for greater induced drag. Just before touch down, when my
angle of attack was increased, the sink rate went up much faster than the
higher wing loaded Kolbs. I was having trouble accommodating to this
accelerated sink rate as I few just above stall speed,it did not seem to be
as linear. Once I saw understood the induced drag effect & kept it only
2-3mph faster, the sink rate remained linear & touch down points became very
predictable. I would assume this would similarly happen with the FireFly.
Richard Swiderski
SlingShot Glider
--> Kolb-List message posted by: dale seitzer <dalemseitzer@yahoo.com>
.......I worry that the design is not as safe as other kolbs. How many
Slingshots
were built? How many crashed? How many are still
flying regularly? There are many popular planes that
do not glide well.....
Message 17
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
|Once I saw understood the induced drag effect & kept it only
| 2-3mph faster, the sink rate remained linear & touch down points
became very
| predictable. I would assume this would similarly happen with the
FireFly.
|
| Richard Swiderski
Hi Richard/Gang:
Is all the above the same as: When the engine quits, keep your
airspeed up by increasing angle of attack, remembering to have enough
airspeed at the bottom to flare and land?
Without power it is the only way I know how to increase/maintain
airspeed. A lot of inexperienced folks that do not practice what you
do, a lot of engine out practice forced landings, come up short when
they try to fly longer and farther by coming back on the stick. Most
all Kolbs will maintain a level attitude when they are stalling,
simply by pulling back on the stick. However, the sink rate is going
to be way up there, and the ground is going to be hard when one smacks
it. Although level in attitude, the aircraft is not flying, but
simply falling. There are a bunch of us out there that have gotten
into this trap and survived, others haven't. One of the most
difficult things to do when stalled close to the ground is push the
stick forward and the nose down. But...........that is the only way
to regain flying speed.
Was it the Kasper Wing that could mush level all the way to a few feet
above the ground, execute a tiny flare and land?
Take care,
john h
Message 18
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Edward Chmielewski" <edchmiel@mindspring.com>
Hi John, all,
You may mean <decrease> angle-of-attack? ;
)
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Slingshot
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
>
> became very
> FireFly.
>
> Hi Richard/Gang:
>
> Is all the above the same as: When the engine quits, keep your
> airspeed up by increasing angle of attack, remembering to have enough
> airspeed at the bottom to flare and land?
>
(Snip)
> Take care,
>
> john h
>
Message 19
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Hi all,
Just returned from my little sojourn in the sun, looking bronzed and incredibly
handsome.
While I was in Mallorca I contacted an advertised ULM field. Couldn`t get a flight
as they were in trouble with a neighbor complaining about the noise. So whats
new?
A chat with the operator filled me in on the local rules. No ULM flying above
1000 feet. No landing at any `real` airfields. No entrance into ANY sort of of
Controlled airspace. What a pity. The place is made for a ULM on floats. Little
bays, deep, clear water, fabulous cliffs and mountains. In view of all the
restrictions I was a bit surprised to see, one evening, a ULM, something like
a Rans, with a 4 stroke engine, doing a beat up of the boats anchored in the bay
outside the hotel. Certainly he was below the 1000 Ft restriction, probably
below 500 feet. He had bags of power and pulled up from among the yacht masts
in the marina into a wing over and then flew straight at my hotel balcony, on
the 4 th floor, then soared up over the roof. The guy returned in a dive to about
25 feet and then flew all across the bay at that height until he lifted over
the low beach at the far side of the bay and disappeared.
He deserves to be stuck in jail of course but it was great fun.
Grateful thanks to all those who contributed words of wisdom in response to my
queries about landing Kolbs. In spite of comments from some that the guys who
mess up must be poor pilots, or that repairing bent undercarts is easy or that
no one takes off flap part way through a landing (Oh yes they do!) the number
of pilots who DO have to bend u/c back into shape seems to point to the fact
that a problem really exists. I know of no other type of ULM that suffers in the
same way. They all have accidents, sure, but not all in one phase of flight.
A number of pilots said that their machine `just quit flying`, or said that `when
I tried to three point it, it fell out under me`. In some case it was `it
flew right through the flare` or `with the stick right back it wouldn`t flare
out`
These all seem to me to indicate `stalling` to some degree.
What makes a wing stall? Too great an angle of attack. Thats all . At a given
angle of attack at a given weight the airflow breaks away from the airofoil section
and away she goes. The angle of attack is the angle between the plane of
the wing and `the APPARENT wind`.
The concept of APPARENT wind, although well known in sailing circles where they
also deal in low speed airflows, does not seem to be widely entertained by pilots.
Imagine a wing, parallel with the ground, going through the wind at 200
mph and you will see that for all practical purposes the wind apparently comes
from dead ahead. Now imagine the wing slowing down and gravity gradually begins
to take over. The wing ``WITHOUT CHANGING ITS ATTITUDE` begins to mush
downward. The APPARENT wind is now approaching the wing from slightly below.
The speed drops off, the `mushing` increases, the wind APPARENTLY now approaching
at a steeper angle. A wing still in the same ATTITUDE approaching the
ground vertically has the APPARENT wind coming from directly below. The wing is
still in the same ATTITUDE so what is happening? The angle of attack is increasing
as the plane begins to `mush` downward until finally it stalls.
Sure this is a function of the speed to some extent but when you pull back into
the flare the speed does not suddenly dissipate, but the angle of attack does.
Now the Kolb has the wings set at an unusually high angle of attack WHEN IT IS
AT REST. I suggest that coming down the approach, with the speed reduced, the
angle of attack has already increased and flaring to level with the ground,or
even further to a threepointer position, increases the angle of attack to very
near, in some cases over, the angle at which it stalls.To axecerbate the problem
the act of flaring i.e. changing direction, through `G` forces, increases
the weight even if only a little. This automatically increases the stalling speed
at an already critical juncture.
This would certainly explain the `refused to flare` complaint.
The answer would seem to be keep your speed up and don`t flare too violently.
I fully realise that I have got a nerve putting forward this `explanation` to a
list full of experts who have built and flown Kolbs for years when I have only
flown a 3Xtra demonstrator for an hour and have done no landings at all but
I have got around 1000 hours mainly in gliders and ulm`s and something must
have rubbed off in the process.
I shall be delighted to carry on with this, off list if it is all too boring for
the majority, with anyone with observations or conflicting theories.
Cheers
Pat
Message 20
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
<<When the engine quits, keep your
airspeed up by increasing angle of attack,>>
Oh NO!.
I have just posted my long, long post about landing difficulties when this
arrived on the screen. Putting up your airspeed does NOT increase the angle
of attack. It DECREASES it.
Increasing your airspeed will keep you flying, up to a point. Where most
pilots come unstuck when suddenly losing power is in trying to stretch the
glide by lifting the nose. This subtly inrerases the angle of attack until
the wing finally stalls and they fall out of the sky.
I have lost power, totally, twice, in my Challenger when the toothed drive
between the 503 and the prop suddenly became smooth. In each case I arrived
in a field much too fast but still flying and under control. If you have to
land suddenly make it faster rather than slower and if the field is too
small remember that it is better to stuff the machine throught the far hedge
at 30 mph than the near hedge at 50mph.
Cheers
Pat
Message 21
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
| )
|
| Ed in JXN
Hi Ed C/All:
Yup!
You got that right.
What I meant to say was push the nose over and increase dive angle.
I'm learning. ;-)
john h
Message 22
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| Subject: | Kolb Botched Landings |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Patrick L/Gang:
Great to have you back Patrick.
Again, nothing wrong in the landing department of Kolb aircraft except
the nut behind the stick.
john h
Message 23
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
| I have just posted my long, long post about landing difficulties
when this
| arrived on the screen. Putting up your airspeed does NOT increase
the angle
| of attack. It DECREASES it.
Pat/Gang:
You are absolutely right.
What I was thinking and what I wrote were entirely backwards.
Sorry about that. I'll try to do better in the future. ;-)
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Test results |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Noyer <ronoy@shentel.net>
Patrick, nice to see you're looking so T&R. Keep on with your thread,
but pls leave ol' Bernoulli and the vacuum-over-the-top-of-the-wing out
of the discussion. A few years back that was almost as acrimonious as
GUNS, Politics, and a snake-oil gumout whose name I won't use for fear
of starting it again.
regards,
Bob N.
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Lexan Glue Wrap-Up |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron Lee" <rlee468@comcast.net>
I tried the plastic pipe glue and cleaner. I broke the Lexan before the joint.
It welded it like one piece. Hard to control to keep neat though.
Ron
Tucson
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Firefly flown |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Good on ya, Herb.... another Kolb up...!
The nose cone scuff drill usually comes with taxiing across ruts, but you
can
throw in a landing variation if you really want to...
As for the excessive stiffness.... well.... you'll likely learn to
appreciate it as you get further along...
we all worry about it.... I hear there is a later design change that solves
it... not sure exactly what that means, but I don't think I like like the
sound of it... likely degrades low speed performance... and that's about
where I am at this point... anyway....
Congrats...!!!
Beauford
FF#076
Brandon FL
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: <herbgh@juno.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: Firefly flown
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: herbgh@juno.com
>
>
> Hi Group
>
> Last sun afternoon, I flew sn 0032 (new Kolb) from my strip for its
> maiden voyage. My second go at test piloting! Pretty sure that I had
> my heels on the brakes when I touched down.. My first intro to heel
> brakes. The nose cone needs some repair.:-) did someone warn me??
> :-) For now a little duct tape will suffice! Other wise a good half
> hours worth of flying. Boy!! are those ailerons stiff! Gonna fix that.
> Air speed does not work! gonna fix that also. Used both notches of
> flaperons . They do not work like my old MkIII flaps!!
>
> Herb in Ky
>
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: : Re: Lexan Glue Wrap-Up |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Thanks, Ron...
I went ahead and glued it with the stuff I got. for it ...
If she comes loose, will try the pipe solvent... (I assume you mean PVC
solvent...?)
Thankee for the input...
Beauford
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Lee" <rlee468@comcast.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Lexan Glue Wrap-Up
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron Lee" <rlee468@comcast.net>
>
> I tried the plastic pipe glue and cleaner. I broke the Lexan before the
> joint. It welded it like one piece. Hard to control to keep neat though.
> Ron
> Tucson
>
>
>
Message 28
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
Remember folks, "Maintain thy airspeed lest the earth come up and smite thee
mightily".
John H was totally correct, you can't flair a stalled wing.
Denny Rowe, Mk-3, PA
do not archive
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Back in the air |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
Will,
It's Great to hear you are back in the saddle!
Congratulations Pal!
Denny
do not archive
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Firefly flown |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: herbgh@juno.com
Thanks Beauford
I fixed the inadvertant heel brake application. The brake lever is now
on the joy stick!! :-)
Kinda pushed the nose cone around this afternoon prepatory to putting
some fiberglass/epoxy inside to get it back into shape. Coulda flown it
with some Duct tape for the rest of the season. I think I can have it
ready to fly again in a few days New cone is about 200 bucks from TNK.
Called Donnie today. Herb
do not archive
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:27:03 -0400 "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
writes:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford"
> <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
>
> Good on ya, Herb.... another Kolb up...!
> The nose cone scuff drill usually comes with taxiing across ruts,
> but you
> can
> throw in a landing variation if you really want to...
>
Message 31
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderwski" <rswiderski@earthlink.net>
John & All,
No, that's not at all what I was saying. Another way I can say it
is that with my old UltraStar or MKII, I could fly a 1 or 2mph above stall,
with the engine off & my sink rate would remain constant, about 500fpm. But
in the SlingShot, when I flew 1 or 2mph above stall, the sink rate
increased, that is to say, I lost altitude faster or the decent steepened.
Where as if I flew 1 or 2mph faster, the sink rate or the steepness of the
decent, was actually less. The result of gliding just above stall being not
a stall or hard landing, but an unexpected change in projectory which in
turn resulted in landing short of the expected touch down point. So by
increasing the speed a little, I would extend my glide distance
significantly because small change in angle of attack made a comparatively
large decrease in induced drag. Hope that makes better sense. ...Richard
Swiderski
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Slingshot
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
|Once I saw understood the induced drag effect & kept it only
| 2-3mph faster, the sink rate remained linear & touch down points
became very
| predictable. I would assume this would similarly happen with the
FireFly.
|
| Richard Swiderski
Hi Richard/Gang:
Is all the above the same as: When the engine quits, keep your
airspeed up by increasing angle of attack, remembering to have enough
airspeed at the bottom to flare and land?
Without power it is the only way I know how to increase/maintain
airspeed. A lot of inexperienced folks that do not practice what you
do, a lot of engine out practice forced landings, come up short when
they try to fly longer and farther by coming back on the stick. Most
all Kolbs will maintain a level attitude when they are stalling,
simply by pulling back on the stick. However, the sink rate is going
to be way up there, and the ground is going to be hard when one smacks
it. Although level in attitude, the aircraft is not flying, but
simply falling. There are a bunch of us out there that have gotten
into this trap and survived, others haven't. One of the most
difficult things to do when stalled close to the ground is push the
stick forward and the nose down. But...........that is the only way
to regain flying speed.
Was it the Kasper Wing that could mush level all the way to a few feet
above the ground, execute a tiny flare and land?
Take care,
john h
Message 32
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Hi Richard/All:
I got it and made an entry in my note book.
I don't think anything would fly right on the stall like my US and FS.
Amazing little airplanes.
Take care,
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
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