Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:24 AM - Matronics 2004 Email List Fund Raiser [PLEASE READ] (Matt Dralle)
2. 05:23 AM - Re: Considering to buy second hand Kolb MK3: Where to watch out (Thom Riddle)
3. 05:54 AM - prebuy check (Charles & Meredith Blackwell)
4. 06:50 AM - Ms. Dixie report (Paul Petty)
5. 07:36 AM - Re: best lift to drag speed. (boyd young)
6. 07:47 AM - Re: Considering to buy second hand Kolb MK3: Where to watch out for? (John Jung)
7. 07:52 AM - Re: Re: best lift to drag speed. (PATRICK LADD)
8. 08:08 AM - Re: Considering to buy second hand Kolb MK3: Where to watch out for? (PATRICK LADD)
9. 08:19 AM - Re: Ms. Dixie report (John Williamson)
10. 08:51 AM - Best climb... (Jeremy Casey)
11. 09:06 AM - Las Vegas (James, Ken)
12. 02:20 PM - Re: Re: best lift to drag speed. (John Hauck)
13. 04:06 PM - my Firestar's longest trip w/o leaving the ground! (Jon Croke)
14. 04:46 PM - Re: best lift to drag speed. (David Paule)
15. 05:03 PM - Re: my Firestar's longest trip w/o leaving the ground! (Larry Bourne)
16. 05:53 PM - Re: my Firestar's longest trip w/o leaving the (jerb)
17. 07:07 PM - Re: Best climb... (Larry Cottrell)
18. 07:11 PM - Re: Re: best lift to drag speed. (John Williamson)
19. 07:21 PM - Re: my Firestar's longest trip w/o leaving the ground! (tj brown)
20. 07:21 PM - Re: Best climb... (John Hauck)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Matronics 2004 Email List Fund Raiser [PLEASE READ] |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
Each November I hold a PBS-like Fund Raiser to support the continued
operation and upgrade of the Email List servers at Matronics. The Lists
sponsored here are supported solely though the direct contributions of its
members each year during the Fund Raiser. As you have likely noticed,
there is no commercial advertising on any of the Lists or on any of the
List-related web sites such as the List Browser and List Search Engine.
That doesn't mean they're free to operate, however. To run a first class,
high-performance, highly-available service such as the Forums at Matronics,
its take resources. These resources fall into the categories of financial
and personnel. As far as "personnel" is concerned, its a one-man show and
I perform all of the work required to operate and upgrade the Lists without
being directly compensated for my work. But that's a labor of love. The
financial resources required, on the other hand, are covered primarily
though the generous contributions of the List members.
Direct costs include, for example, a commercial-grade T1 line Internet
connection dedicated primarily to serving the Lister Community. This T1
Internet connection provides a high-performance, dedicated connection to
the Archive and Browsing Tools and assures the quickest, most reliable
delivery of List messages. It seems like there's always an upgrade
required and this year I've added an all new online backup system to
automatically backup all of the Lists Archives as well as provide for
complete system disaster recovery. This new system would enable me to
restore the email and/or web server systems to 100% in only a couple of
hours if one of them were to blow up.
The number of messages processed by the Matronics Forums continues to
increase as well. In the last 12 months, there have been over 70,000
unique messages posted across the various lists, amounting to well over 32
MILLION messages that have been redistributed to List members in that same
period! The List web site also sees an equally high level of traffic with
some 148,000 Archive searches performed last year and a staggering 13
million web site hits!
During the month of November, I will be sending out a Fund Raiser reminder
message a couple of times a week and I ask for your patience and
understanding during this time. The Fund Raiser is the sole means of
support for the Lists, and the existence and longevity of the Lists hinges
directly its success.
This year once again, Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore has provided a
number of great incentive gifts during the Fund Raiser. Andy provides
these items to me at a substantial discount and they have proven to be very
popular among the Listers. Thank you Andy for your extraordinary
generosity and support of the Lists again this year! Please visit Andy's
web site, the Builder's Bookstore:
http://www.buildersbooks.com
If you use the Matronics Email Lists and enjoy the quick and easy access to
one of the best resources on the Internet for Homebuilt and General
aviation discussion forums, please make a Contribution today to support the
continued operation. Remember, its *your* Contribution that keeps these
Lists running.
The Contribution web site is freshly updated with a list of all new
incentive gifts! Transactions are SSL secured and you can make your
Contribution using a credit card, Paypal, or a personal check. The
Contribution web site can be found at:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you for your support!!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Considering to buy second hand Kolb MK3: Where to watch |
out
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
Pollus,
Welcome to the Kolb world. I had an early FireStar but it has been sold and I have
no first hand experience with the MkIII. However, I do have some experience
with the 582 in a Zenith 701. Although the 2-stroke engines are not as reliable
as the 4-stroke engines the 582 is one of the best of the Rotax 2-strokes.
Mine had the HAC(high altitude compensation) carb kit and oil injection which
made it very convenient. Unless you plan to fly a long way from home into the
mountains the HAC would not be much of a benefit to you in the lowlands.
The primary reason I'm responding to your inquiry though is that my wife and I
spent a year in your beautiful country, from July 1990 - June 1991 on an engineering
contract and traveled throughout your delightful country, including Enschede.
I lived in Amstelveen, a suburb of Amsterdam. It was a sad day when my
contract expired.
Goed geluk with your Kolb acquisition efforts.
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, New York
Message 3
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charles & Meredith Blackwell <wozani@optonline.net>
Pollus,
You have made an excellent choice of an airplane. I fly a MKII, the earlier
version of the same design with 5 inch tubes instead of the stronger 6 inch
on the MKIII. It was easy for me to buy the plane because it belonged to my flight
instructor and he pointed out the weaknesses and strengths to me and luckily
he was an honest man. I will share some of that insight with you and what
I have gained from my ownership. Keep checking the Kolb-list because the builders
are very helpful and will have more information.
The steel parts can rust if not properly treated and maintained. Check the
hinge line for the ailerons and the elevators. The hinge can be replaced with
a minimum of effort and time if needed. Also the tail has an "H" shaped bracket
tying the tail boom to the rudder and the tail wheel. Some have found cracks
on the angle tube going to the tail wheel, but that is extremely rare and
a sign of a hard landing or interior rust through.
The steel of the cockpit cage can rust if not sealed when welded. It will
look like streaks of rust at the weld lines showing through the paint. If the
paint is cracked or spiderwebbed on the cage, then that can be a sign of bending
from rough treatment. Where the tailboom enters the cage in the rear, the
supports should all be straight and symettrical, no signs of bending and cracking.
While looking there, look at the tail boom, there should be no dents, especially
on the top where the propeller may have struck the boom during an accident.
All planes have slight dimples on the tail boom, but not hard creases
or more than a few millimeters deep spread out over a space the size of a few
fingers. The aluminum is fragile and dents during shipping and storage do occur.
All fabric planes like ours hate the sun and if stored outside you may have
fabric that needs replacing. The UV radiation breaks down the fabric. Some
flying clubs have a testing tool to check fabric strength. If you can't find
one then poke gently with your finger in the back near the propeller on the cage
fabric. With light pressure it should give a little but feel like a drum.
The paint should not flake off when you do this. Most older planes have rub
marks in the fabric where it gets handled or bumped in the hangar. They should
be limited, without large tears or spreading lines. This happens especially
where you get in and out of the plane, on the tail surfaces and the wing tips.
The propellor should not have cracks or holes in it. The engine should not
leak excessive oil or any coolant. Most two sroke engines leave a little bit
of oil from the exhaust on the plane, but not any real leaks or drips. The exhaust
system should have no cracks in it, the springs should be strong that hold
it together if they use that method. The exhaust gas temperature gauges should
be connected and you can check the factory book against the rpm, the EGT
and the cylinder head temperature figures during idle and warm up on the ground.
You can check the compression of the cylinders to see if they are worn and
need to be fixed. There should be minimal movement where the propeller connects
to the gearbox, no sloppiness.
You don't want rust where the tires connect to the landing gear legs. That
is a stressed part and should be strong. There should be tread left on the tires,
no threads showing through. Test the brakes.
The leading edge of the wing should be straight and true, no bending or warping
or sagging.
The BRS parachute has a time limit on when it needs to be repacked or the propellant
needs to be replaced. You can check the dates on the canister or soft
pack case.
If you find any faults, you can check on the price to fix them and see if it
is worth it. Because most of the plane is visible, you can do a check easily.
Try to get some time flying with an instructor in a Kolb MKIII before you fly
your own. Good luck with your new bird.
Charlie, MKII in NJ
Message 4
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| Subject: | Ms. Dixie report |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@c-gate.net>
Morning Kolbers,
Yesterday was an exciting day in the Kolbra shop! Ms. Dixie stood on her gear for
the first time.
http://www.c-gate.net/~ppetty/photos/PA310011.JPG
Future Kolbra Pilot Charley makes first hanger flight.
http://www.c-gate.net/~ppetty/photos/PA310007.JPG
I think he approved.
http://www.c-gate.net/~ppetty/photos/PA310008.JPG
I wonder at this point if Travis gave me the correct tail boom. This thing looks
40 feet long!
http://www.c-gate.net/~ppetty/photos/PA310009.JPG
Mark has finished the fuel cell and is making her radiator/oil tank mount and as
soon as it arrives
it's on to the floor panels and panel. This is really starting to get interesting!
Paul Petty
Building Ms. Dixie
Kolbra/912UL/Warp
www.c-gate.net/~ppetty
Message 5
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"Kolb-List Digest Server" <kolb-list-digest@matronics.com>
| Subject: | Re: best lift to drag speed. |
0.07 FORGED_OUTLOOK_TAGS Outlook can't send HTML in this format
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "boyd young" <by0ung@brigham.net>
Boyd,
You are implicitly assuming that the prop has a constant efficiency for all speeds.
Unfortunately, especially for fixed-pitch props, they don't.
Their efficency varies significantly with speed - that's why a climb prop and a
cruise prop have such different performance characteristics.
Aircraft climb is essentially the power delivered by the prop minus the power required
by the aircraft. Both must be considered, not just the aircraft side of
the equation.
Regards,
Dave Paule
Boulder, CO
FSII
dave
ok I see what you are getting at..... but I think you need to take into consideration
2 graphs.
1. there is a graph for the climb rate over different speeds. at the best L/D speed
for the airplane, that graph will max out.
2. the graph for prop efficiencies plotted over the range of speeds that we fly.
and you could have a different graph for different props or pitches on the same
prop.
if you had a prop that has significantly better efficiency, faster or slower, than
the best L/D speed then you would have a point..... but I think that any prop
efficiency in the range of speed that we fly ( L/D speed + or - 20 ) do not
change significantly enough to overcome the additional drag induced by the faster
or slower speeds.
boyd
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Considering to buy second hand Kolb MK3: Where to watch |
out for?
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Jung <jrjungjr@yahoo.com>
Pollus and Group,
When I have evaluated a plane to buy, I considered two
things: the design and the workmanship.
Kolbs are all well designed, so that part is easy.
Workmanship is fairly easy, too. Get one that you are
satisfied with. I consider workmanship important with
other designs because it is an indication of how
thorough the builder was. Even and expert can see
everything and must rely to a large extent on
workmanship to evaluate a plane. After building my
Kolb, I decided that a builder would really have to
screw up to build an unsafe one.
Now that I've said that let me add one caution. If I
were you, I would avoid of any Kolb where the builder
made changes to the flight structure. Not that all
changes are bad, it's just that they would need an
expert to evaluate them.
John Jung
_______________________________
Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: best lift to drag speed. |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
<<that's why a climb prop and a cruise prop have such different performance
characteristics.>>
This is all very true but this started out by talking about the way an a/c
behaves after the engine stopped and the efficiency of the prop is
irrelevant. In fact the prop is a darned nuisance as it degrades the gliding
performance.
There are only 2 speeds which the pilot should remember 1) the speed which
will keep him in the air for the longest TIME. and 2) The speed which will
keep him in the air for the longest DISTANCE.
Cheers
Pat
pj.ladd@btinternet.com
do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Considering to buy second hand Kolb MK3: Where to watch |
out for?
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
<<I am whise enough not to try to fool around with the thing without a
proper instruction, >>
Hi Pollus,
I cannot help with tips on possible weak spots in an existing plane. Nearly
everyone on this list has more experience than I .
However, regarding flying.You show good sense in not trying to fly without
instruction.
Suggestion. Come to England for a holiday and contact the UK and European
dealer Mike Moulai on www.sfmicrolights.com and see if he can arrange some
instruction for you. You may want to wait for some reasonable weather of
course.!
Good luck
Pat
pj.ladd@btinternet.com
Do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Ms. Dixie report |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot@comcast.net>
Hi Paul,
Great update on Ms. Dixie.
They do look extremely long until you get the wings on them.
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolb Kolbra, Rotax 912ULS, 698 hours
http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot
Zenith CH701 Project
http://home.comcast.net/~stol_airplane
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/stol_airplane
do not archive
Message 10
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0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" <n79rt@kilocharlie.us>
I know what David P. is talking about. Basically best glide speed is
the speed at which the airframe has the least TOTAL amount of drag.
What David is saying (I think) is that depending on prop/engine
configuration the best climb rate is not necessarily the same speed as
best glide speed (in defense of several earlier posts by myself and John
Williamson, we said "usually" is the same.)
Case in point, consider your typical VW powered speedster,
Sonex/Sonerai, etc. Climb is generated by excess thrust, not excess
lift, so best climb is at a speed somewhere between the lowest TOTAL
airframe drag speed and the speed at which the engine/prop make the most
thrust. In other words the speed where the engine/prop combination make
the most excess thrust over what is required to overcome that TOTAL
airframe drag. In the case of VW powered planes with short prop
diameters, they are terribly inefficient at converting torque to thrust
at low airspeeds, so if lowest TOTAL airframe drag is at 65 but the prop
doesn't really start to "hook up" till 85 then your best climb will
obviously be higher then the lowest drag speed (which will be Best Glide
speed)
NOW! If anyone is still awake I will again state that USUALLY Best glide
is pretty close to best climb on the airspeed indicator FOR TYPICAL
ULTRALIGHTS/CESSNA'S/PIPER'S/etc. Obvious exceptions being planes like
VW powered stuff with ridiculous short props, and most anything powered
with a jet of anykind. F15/F16/Su-37/etc. ;-)
Jeremy Casey
KiloCharlie Drafting, Inc.
jeremy@kilocharlie.us
Message 11
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "James, Ken" <KDJames@berkscareer.com>
Hey I'm going out to Las Vegas for a training seminar and have a weekend
free Dec 4-5 any "air activities I should see/ do"
Ken
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: best lift to drag speed. |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
speed which
| will keep him in the air for the longest TIME. and 2) The speed
which will
| keep him in the air for the longest DISTANCE.
|
| Cheers
|
| Pat
Hi Pat/All:
I think the most important speed is the speed that keeps one flying
and not stalling. Usually, in my case anyhow, I am too low to worry
about best glide distance and minimum rate of decent.
Our speed envelope is pretty small on our Kolbs, so I don't get
wrapped around the axle too much on either best glade or minimum rate
of decent. Usually, pretty busy trying to make the forced landing.
Take care,
john h
Message 13
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| Subject: | my Firestar's longest trip w/o leaving the ground! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
Dear fellow Kolbers,
I have a unique story of woe and intrigue that I would like to share with you...
providing a potential lesson in one of the dangers of Kolb ownership, or more
accurately -- just some light entertainment. The story just ended its journey
this last weekend. So here goes..
Back in August I got an inquiry on my Firestar, which I put up for sale to in order
to help fund my new aircraft project. This gentleman, who we will call Joe,
lives in Florida, and asked a bunch of questions about the plane's condition,
history, etc. He satisfied himself to the degree that he sent me a postal
money order for $500 as a deposit until he drove up here (I live near Green Bay,
Wisconsin) to inspect the plane and decide whether to purchase. Well, the
hurricanes started to hit Florida, one after another.. and our Joe could not make
it up here for inspection. Of coure, I told him not to worry, he could take
as long as needed, as I had his deposit and knew he was serious. And -- the
plane was as described in my pictures and descriptions. After a few months,
the hurricanes were done and Joe prepared himself for the journey up here. I
had turned down at least 3 serious callers that wanted me to sell them my plane
in the meantime, but I told them that the deposit from Joe precluded me from
offering it to anyone else. Joe finally was ready to make his journey to visit
the plane, and advised me via email of his departure.
Then, I got the following email about 10 hours after he left:
"Jon,
traveling up RT 75 towards Atlata Georga I decided I can't do it. I give up
on my dream to own and fly my own plane.Its just too much for this 65 year old
man. All I could think of is trailering it home, thats a long way 1400 miles
towing a trailer with a plane on it. I thought of so many things that could go
wrong. I'm driveing a 19 year old truck ( in very good shape ) but anything going
wrong would delay me, I would not leave my plane on a open trailer unguarded.
I sold my last airplane in 1993 and have not flown since, thats 11 years ago.
I still dream of flying but I have to be realisic.The closest airport is 35
miles away, no instruction there. I would need to get current, closest airport
about 50 miles 6000 ' paved strip, not my kind of place.
I guess its just a imposible dream, keep the deposit, sell it to someone else.
I will not try again ! SORRY for delaying you. Joe "
Well, poor Joe, I didnt want to lose the sale of the plane if it was just the long
journey that troubled him, plus I didnt want to keep his deposit although
I knew I lost several buyers during those months that went by. So, I sent him
an email offering to bring him the plane on my own nickel, (about 1600 miles each
way with 2.5 days travel time) -- if he was still interested. One of the
many emails from him responding to my offer inlcude this one:
"Jon you are too kind ! tell me the details on bringing it down and how we can
work it out ( details ). I'm sorry if I'm a little short, I'm still upset about
my 5th wheel. You know I am interested and want your Kolb firestar ll. Thank
You ... Joe"
and the evening before I left, this email:
" Hi Jon,
I will be ready and waiting, give me a call along the way collect is
fine ! I will be home most of the time. We can make final directions so we
can hook up. Don't forget plans, manuals, spare parts ,anything, as now is
the time to put them in that trailer. See you soon.... Joe "
Well, I started my long journey with Firestar in tow... realizing I was only getting
10 miles per gallon pulling that trailer (enclosed) and taking the long
route around the Smoky mountains to make the journey smoother. After a couple
of long days I arrived close to his home and called hom from my motel room. We
agreed to meet at Zepherhills airport at 11:00 AM where the plane would be kept.
Now here is where the story takes a turn.
Joe arrived at the airport and we together walked into the FBO to rent a tie down
area where the plane would live. I pulled the trailer onto that grass spot
to start the process of unloading (which is an involved process of undoing the
packing, ramps, etc) Well, I suspected something strange when Joe stopped me
from starting the unpacking and requested we get a soft drink from the FBO first.
I agreed and we chit chatted about nothing much while we finished our drinks.
I was starting to get nervous, but wasnt sure why! Well, we then went
back to the trailer, he took a quick look thru the trailer and I started to remove
the first ramp. He stopped me at the back end of the trailer, told me to
STOP and jammed $500 in bills into my hand. He said "Jon, I dont want the plane"
I am getting old, I cannot handle what it takes to put this together, I
have so many projects to finish, I am REALLY sorry, but I cannot deal with the
plane"
Well... that was about it.... but since I really didnt want to bring the plane
all the way home, and lose the sale, I sat Joe down, and presented him with a
sheet of paper with some figures on it. I offered to reduce the price by $2000
+ another $1000 credit for the money he had given me so far (deposit) no questions
asked, just to get him to take the plane. No thanks was his answer.
I made that long slow trip home, with the plane in tow, and my tail between...
(wherever your tail goes)!
What lessons should I learn from all of this?? I was mad about the fact that I
had wasted 5 days of my life driving across the country... The $1000 I got from
Joe just barely covered my gas and 5 days of hotels (3200 mi and $2 gal for
gas), I should be lucky for that, tho. I guess I'm glad that Joe is not a fellow
Kolb owner, we dont need his kind! (I'm still a little bitter). Maybe I
should have read between the lines in his original letter when he turned back
on his journey. I am not a good judger of situations, I suppose.
What remains now is a Firestar for sale, the flying season is virtually over for up here... so if anyone would like to take advantage of an end of season sale, I'm willing to deal.... and if you would like me to bring the plane to your door for inspection...... well......better have a strong drink for me... http://joncroke.com for pics and details.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 14
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"Kolb-List Digest Server" <kolb-list-digest@matronics.com>
| Subject: | Re: best lift to drag speed. |
0.00 THE_BEST_RATE BODY: The best Rates
0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO
0.07 FORGED_OUTLOOK_TAGS Outlook can't send HTML in this format
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Paule" <dpaule@frii.com>
Okay students, please get out a piece of graph paper, a ruler, and a black, a blue,
and a red pencil, and we'll look at an imaginary airplane. Why not? Great
Hallow's Eve has passed and the air is still full of magic.
Let's assume that this magic airplane has two perfect power settings: full power
and idle power, and that it'll happily run all day at either of these.
Please pick up your black pencil. In the middle of the page, draw a horizontal
line across the page. Label this line "speed," and number it from 0 at the left
to 100 at the right. We'll call these speeds mph.
At the 0 mark on the line, draw a vertical line the full height of the page. Since
it's already labeled 0 at the crossing, mark it to 1,000 feet per minute at
the top of the page, and -1,000 feet per minute at the bottom.
Draw a vertical line at 32 mph. This is the stall speed.
Please pick up the red pencil for our idling motor, and make three dots at these
points:
a) Stall speed and -500 feet per minute,
b) 38 mph and -250 feet per minute,
c) 70 mph and -700 feet per minute.
Draw a parabola through these points.
Now kindly use the blue pencil, for the full-power case, and make three dots at
these points:
a) Stall speed and 250 feet per minute up,
b) 42 mph and 750 feet per minute up,
c) 70 mph and 0 feet per minute.
And draw a blue parabola through these.
Both parabolas should not hold water.
Next, get the black pencil again and draw these lines:
1. From the origin to a tangency with the blue parabola. That speed is Vx.
2. A vertical line through the maximum part of the blue parabola. That's the best
rate of climb speed, probably at 42 mph, and it's called Vy.
3. From the origin to the tangency of the red parabola. This speed is the best
L/D speed. The reciprocal of the slope of the line is the best L/D.
4. A vertical line through the highest point of the red parabola. This is the speed
for the minimum rate of sink, probably at 38 mph.
5. There's a final point worth noting - where the blue line crosses the speed axis,
that's the top speed.
Now, if you wish, you can draw another arc. This one - any yes, certainly, you
can use another color. In fact, I recommend it - is the rate of climb from the
blue line minus the rate of sink from the red line. This line is called the "excess
power available" curve. If your graph looks at all like mine, the shape
of this curve is a smooth parabola. Its peak value is at about 50 mph, for good
all-around performance. It's not centered on the L/D point.
Obviously all this varies for different weights, props, etc. A myriad of factors.
The thing is that our measurements are of a whole plane, not just the airframe.
It has a motor and a prop. And rate of climb is only due to the excess power
available. No excess power and you'd simply have a wide car.
Now, unfortunately, I must go off on an errand, so this lesson is ended for tonight.
Enjoy,
Dave Paule
Boulder, CO
FSII
+++++
----- Original Message -----
From: boyd young
To: David Paule ; Kolb-List Digest Server
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: best lift to drag speed.
Boyd,
You are implicitly assuming that the prop has a constant efficiency for all speeds.
Unfortunately, especially for fixed-pitch props, they don't.
Their efficency varies significantly with speed - that's why a climb prop and
a cruise prop have such different performance characteristics.
Aircraft climb is essentially the power delivered by the prop minus the power
required by the aircraft. Both must be considered, not just the aircraft side
of the equation.
Regards,
Dave Paule
Boulder, CO
FSII
dave
ok I see what you are getting at..... but I think you need to take into consideration
2 graphs.
1. there is a graph for the climb rate over different speeds. at the best L/D
speed for the airplane, that graph will max out.
2. the graph for prop efficiencies plotted over the range of speeds that we fly.
and you could have a different graph for different props or pitches on the
same prop.
if you had a prop that has significantly better efficiency, faster or slower,
than the best L/D speed then you would have a point..... but I think that any
prop efficiency in the range of speed that we fly ( L/D speed + or - 20 ) do
not change significantly enough to overcome the additional drag induced by the
faster or slower speeds.
boyd
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: my Firestar's longest trip w/o leaving the ground! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Jon, I'm amazed. I can't believe the patience and effort you expended for
this guy. I guess you did get a free sightseeing trip out of it all, but
what a pain in the ........., and you've gotta start all over to sell the
plane. Good Luck. Lar. Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: my Firestar's longest trip w/o leaving the ground!
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
>
> Dear fellow Kolbers,
>
> I have a unique story of woe and intrigue that I would like to share with
> you... providing a potential lesson in one of the dangers of Kolb
> ownership, or more accurately -- just some light entertainment. The story
> just ended its journey this last weekend. So here goes..
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: my Firestar's longest trip w/o leaving the |
ground!
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net> ground!
Jon,
Sorry to hear of your recent experience. Want to sell it post it on
Barnstormer.com - they work on donations if you sell it. (I figure its
worth the amount it would cost to publish in the UL Flying magazine or our
local metro paper) - it will be snatched up quicker than you think. A good
plane at a fair price will not last long.
Got to admit your pretty brave taking a trip on condition of a sight unseen
purchase facing there is a high risk that the potential buyer could back
out and not have much to loose in the process. Did this happen this last
week - you know they had the Sport Aviation Expo in Sebring FL Thursday
through Sunday.
Repost the info regarding your plane to the Kolb site.
Here's a heads up of a scam some sellers have bit on. It goes down like
this. Someone contacts you wanting to purchase your plane. They then
propose that another party who owes them a sum being more than the purchase
price will send you a check. They ask that you cash the check, withhold
the amount due you and then forward the difference to them. Some cases
they get you to send the check, in others they pickup the plane and the
check. You soon learn that the check send to you is worthless. You will
not see your money nor the plane again.
jerb
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Best climb... |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrel@kfalls.net>
> > NOW! If anyone is still awake I will again state that USUALLY Best glide
> is pretty close to best climb on the airspeed indicator FOR TYPICAL
> ULTRALIGHTS/CESSNA'S/PIPER'S/etc.
You guys are getting a bit technical for me, but for what it is worth I did
some experimenting with my Firestar in the desert where landing was not a
problem. It was pretty simple and of course primitive, but my objective was
to see what speed would give me the longest distance. I climbed 3000 ft
above the ground and shut the motor off, kept the plane as close to 45 as I
could. I might mention the I was 6 miles by gps from camp. Noted how close
to camp I managed to land. Next I went to the same altitude and distance and
did it again this time at 55. There was no appreciable difference in
distance, I just got there sooner. Probably did something wrong??? Any way I
was a bit surprised and decided that I would just pick the best spot and
make sure that I either got there or picked another one that I could get to.
If I am not mistaken it is generally trying to stretch the glide that causes
the most serious problems. Besides all that stuff makes my brain hurt. Its
too old for all that exercise.
Larry, Oregon
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: best lift to drag speed. |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot@comcast.net>
David,
I'm sorry but you seem to have lost sight of what has been said.
L/D max gives you minimum rate of descent when power is reduced.
L/D max gives you best rate of climb with power applied.
L/D max is based on the airfoil not on the engine/prop configuration.
L/D max is determined by flight testing and varies with several variables.
Any speed above the stall speed is good, but the speed that gives you L/D
max (minimum sink) is a good number to remember.
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolb Kolbra, Rotax 912ULS, 698 hours
http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot
Zenith CH701 Project
http://home.comcast.net/~stol_airplane
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/stol_airplane
do not archive
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: my Firestar's longest trip w/o leaving the ground! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: tj brown <mrclean9588@sbcglobal.net>
Try putting your plane on www.ultralighthomepage.com
Its free and you can even put a free photo up. TJ
jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>, UNEXPECTED_DATA_AFTER_ADDRESS@.SYNTAX-ERROR. wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb ground!
Jon,
Sorry to hear of your recent experience. Want to sell it post it on
Barnstormer.com - they work on donations if you sell it. (I figure its
worth the amount it would cost to publish in the UL Flying magazine or our
local metro paper) - it will be snatched up quicker than you think. A good
plane at a fair price will not last long.
Got to admit your pretty brave taking a trip on condition of a sight unseen
purchase facing there is a high risk that the potential buyer could back
out and not have much to loose in the process. Did this happen this last
week - you know they had the Sport Aviation Expo in Sebring FL Thursday
through Sunday.
Repost the info regarding your plane to the Kolb site.
Here's a heads up of a scam some sellers have bit on. It goes down like
this. Someone contacts you wanting to purchase your plane. They then
propose that another party who owes them a sum being more than the purchase
price will send you a check. They ask that you cash the check, withhold
the amount due you and then forward the difference to them. Some cases
they get you to send the check, in others they pickup the plane and the
check. You soon learn that the check send to you is worthless. You will
not see your money nor the plane again.
jerb
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Best climb... |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
that causes
| the most serious problems. Besides all that stuff makes my brain
hurt. Its
| too old for all that exercise.
| Larry, Oregon
Hi Larry/Gang:
I understand you completely. :-)
Looking forward to the day I can join you all and fly Alvord.
Take care,
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
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