---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 11/19/04: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:05 AM - Re: Sad Times (GeoR38@aol.com) 2. 06:40 AM - Test: do not answer (W8IRQ@aol.com) 3. 08:42 AM - FS Hirth 65 hp 2706 (W8IRQ@aol.com) 4. 08:46 AM - Vortex Generators (Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL) 5. 08:52 AM - FS Kiev Hot Prop (W8IRQ@aol.com) 6. 09:08 AM - Firestar For Sale (Dave & Eve Pelletier) 7. 09:47 AM - off topic (ron wehba) 8. 10:08 AM - London strip (ul15rhb@juno.com) 9. 10:43 AM - Re: Vortex Generators (Silver Fern Microlights Ltd) 10. 11:25 AM - Re: off topic aka moving xmas decorations (Bob N.) 11. 01:17 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Jack & Louise Hart) 12. 01:34 PM - FireFly Flight Milestone (Jack & Louise Hart) 13. 03:44 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Bob N.) 14. 04:33 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (HShack@aol.com) 15. 04:37 PM - Re: FS Kiev Hot Prop (HShack@aol.com) 16. 05:19 PM - Re: off topic aka moving xmas decorations (ron wehba) 17. 05:32 PM - The Sentinel write up on Norm (WillUribe@aol.com) 18. 05:40 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Larry Cottrell) 19. 07:50 PM - Rotax 447 on Orig FireStar (WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com) 20. 09:04 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (possums) 21. 09:07 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Land Shorter) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:00 AM PST US From: GeoR38@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Sad Times --> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com In a message dated 11/18/2004 10:11:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, jhauck@elmore.rr.com writes: Good morning all: For your info, here is the obituary for Norm. I especially like this picture. A good way to remember a flying friend: http://www.londonfuneralhome.com/obituary_2.htm Got out of the woods last night. Am loading the rig and heading for London this morning. Talked to Dana Labhart last night when I got home. She is doing well considering the current situation. Dana is a wonderful lady. She was my right hand "gal" during my failed flight to Alaska in 2000. Could not have gotten along without her. This whole situation does not seem real, especially when we lose a good friend. Take care, john h MKIIIc Titus, Alabama John, thank you for this post. yours in aviation, George Randolph, Firestar driver at The Villages, Fl do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:14 AM PST US From: W8IRQ@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: Test: do not answer MIME_HTML_MOSTLY@matronics.com, BODY:, Multipart@matronics.com, message@matronics.com, mostly@matronics.com, text/html@matronics.com, MIME@matronics.com --> Kolb-List message posted by: W8IRQ@aol.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:48 AM PST US From: W8IRQ@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: FS Hirth 65 hp 2706 --> Kolb-List message posted by: W8IRQ@aol.com I have a Hirth 2706, with less than 4 hours run in time, since new, $2600.00. I am located near Cleveland,Ohio, and would prefer a local pick up, or will meet you within a 100 mile radius. It is fan cooled, hand start, complete with latest style muffler. Ill health forces sale. Phone Nick at 330-225-7499, or cell # 216-402-4566 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:35 AM PST US From: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL Subject: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL Kolb Friends - I'm thinking of installing VGs on my Mark-3. This has been discussed several times on the List in the past, and there is a great wealth of info in the archives for me to follow. However, I have one question: For VGs on the wing, should they be installed on the ribs or in the valleys? I've seen posts in favor of each. I'm leaning toward "on the ribs," as this would allow me to attach the VG with a single 3/32" rivet, in addition to the tape. Makes for a more secure installation this way. Any recommendations? Many thanks - Dennis Kirby Verner-powered in Cedar Crest, NM ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:07 AM PST US From: W8IRQ@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: FS Kiev Hot Prop --> Kolb-List message posted by: W8IRQ@aol.com I have for sale a Kiev "HOT PROP", in like new condition, $475.00,plus actual shipping. It came off a Trike with a Rotax 503. I am located near Cleveland, Ohio.Ill health forces sale. Call Nick at 330-225-7499, or cell # 216-402-4566. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:08:24 AM PST US From: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" Subject: Kolb-List: Firestar For Sale --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" Guys, I have a friend who has a Kolb Firestar and a Mini-Max for sale. His wife wants to fly and he's gonna get something with two seats - I think a Kitfox. Ennerway, he's promised me a steak dinner if I can find him a buyer for both, or a Big Mac if I can only find him a buyer for one. Details are below: 1989 Firestar, approximately 100 flight hours, Stits covering, standard instruments with dual EGT and CHT, Brakes, Rotax 377 with balance kit, 83 hours since overhaul, Powerfin Prop plus an extra IVO prop, $5,800. (Trailer Avilable) 1996 Mini-Max 1100R Standard instruments with dual EGT & CHT, Brakes, Curved windshield, Fiberglass head rest, Rotax 377, Tennessee Propeller (60-34) $2,100. Would consider selling less engine and propeller. Cover needs to be removed, inspected and recovered. Contact Ben at bhmram@c2i2.com or call at 520 803-0630 C'MON SOMEBODY, BUY THE PLANES - I NEED THE STEAK DINNER!!! AzDave Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:47:46 AM PST US From: "ron wehba" Subject: Kolb-List: off topic --> Kolb-List message posted by: "ron wehba" this is off topic,,,but does anyone know where I can find plans for moving christmas yard decoration? thanks ron w in west tx. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:08:18 AM PST US From: "ul15rhb@juno.com" Subject: Kolb-List: London strip --> Kolb-List message posted by: "ul15rhb@juno.com" I have learned that TNK's London KY strip is on plateau and a few feet before the threshold drops off down a hill. Is this true? While landing at that end, if there isn't sufficient altitude to make the strip, it looks like the side of a hill (before the threshold) is the only choice. Is this true? One would think that anyone flying out of a strip like this would always have enough altitude to make it, then slip it in as a general practice. Is there is an alternate choice for a pilot if the threshold isn't made instead of going into the side of that hill or the trees? There would be a strong desire to "stretch the glide" should the engine want to quit when the throttle is closed. Ralph Burlingame Original Firestar Sign up for Juno Today at http://www.juno.com! Look for special offers at Best Buy stores. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:43:21 AM PST US From: "Silver Fern Microlights Ltd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Silver Fern Microlights Ltd" Hi Dennis, I have fitted the little perspex VG's from the VG Guy, 'Harrison Designs'. I have conducted a full flight test schedule with them on our Xtra for UK approval and they are simply amazing, small light and inexpensive and you can hardly see them. They are fitted 2 in each valley at a 3 inch spacing and stuck to the fabric. They come with full fitting instructions etc. They have lowered the stall speed 5Kt or approx 6mph, and we get off the ground quicker and the landing and flare is much better. I think that they need to be fitted in the valley as the air flows over the wing and takes the shortest route which means the flow will be from the rib into the valley. Hope this helps. Mike the Kiwi. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL" Subject: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL > > > Kolb Friends - > > I'm thinking of installing VGs on my Mark-3. > > This has been discussed several times on the List in the past, and there > is > a great wealth of info in the archives for me to follow. However, I have > one question: For VGs on the wing, should they be installed on the ribs or > in the valleys? > > I've seen posts in favor of each. I'm leaning toward "on the ribs," as > this > would allow me to attach the VG with a single 3/32" rivet, in addition to > the tape. Makes for a more secure installation this way. > > Any recommendations? > > Many thanks - > > Dennis Kirby > Verner-powered in > Cedar Crest, NM > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:25:53 AM PST US From: "Bob N." Subject: Re: Kolb-List: off topic aka moving xmas decorations --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob N." Ron, Two things come to mind(?) 1) try Ryder Rents--they have trucks that you can move anything in. 2) use actual animals--lay some wires with volts on the ground where they are tethered. Put a pneumatic tube switch in street, so that passing cars "light-up" the critters. Bob N. always helpful do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:50 PM PST US From: Jack & Louise Hart Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart At 04:46 PM 11/19/04 -0000, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL ....................................> >I've seen posts in favor of each. I'm leaning toward "on the ribs," as this >would allow me to attach the VG with a single 3/32" rivet, in addition to >the tape. Makes for a more secure installation this way. > >Any recommendations? > >Many thanks - > >Dennis Kirby >Verner-powered in >Cedar Crest, NM > Dennis, The VG,s that I put on the FireFly are located in between the ribs. They were attached with very thin double sided tape, and some electricians tape was used to prevent the front of the VG's from lifting. They have been on the wing for over four years and none have come loose during 139 hours in the air. From initial testing, I found that VG's worked better in the hollows between the ribs. By using the double sided tape, one is not adding more holes in the ribs, and if you change your mind as to where you want to locate them, they can easily be removed and placed in a new location. The nice thing about the double fin trapezoidal shaped base VG's is that they provide a broad contact base between the VG and the fabric. This keeps the VG from working the fabric around the attachment area as much as with the single fin VG's. Also, they are easy and inexpensive to make. If you decide to use one of the larger (wider, taller, and longer) double fin VG designs, it may be necessary to use the rivet and to place them on the ribs. Jack B. Hart FF004 Jackson, MO Jack & Louise Hart jbhart@ldd.net ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:40 PM PST US From: Jack & Louise Hart Subject: Kolb-List: FireFly Flight Milestone --> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart FireFlyers & Kolbers, Again this morning it was raining so I decided to drive up to K02 and work on the FireFly. By the time I was done the rain had quit and the clouds were high enough to be able to fly. Flew for twenty minutes in an old sweat shirt before the chill put me back on the ground. As I logged the flight into the computer, I realized that the FireFly has passed the 500th take off and landing. On average it has flown about two times per week since the first flight. It is still great fun. Jack B. Hart FF004 Jackson, MO do not archive Jack & Louise Hart jbhart@ldd.net ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:44:22 PM PST US From: "Bob N." Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob N." I use the little AL trapezoid VGs mounted with double-sided rug tape. Dang near impossible to remove them. Been on several years. Oh yeah, they are each mounted in the valleys between the ribs, and certainly do reduce stall/landing speeds. Bob N. FireFly 070 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:33:57 PM PST US From: HShack@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com In a message dated 11/19/2004 11:47:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil writes: Kolb Friends - I'm thinking of installing VGs on my Mark-3. This has been discussed several times on the List in the past, and there is a great wealth of info in the archives for me to follow. However, I have one question: For VGs on the wing, should they be installed on the ribs or in the valleys? I've seen posts in favor of each. I'm leaning toward "on the ribs," as this would allow me to attach the VG with a single 3/32" rivet, in addition to the tape. Makes for a more secure installation this way. Any recommendations? I designed my VG's to go on the rib; I figured they would work better with the support under them. If you are using my design, you can attach with "Goop" instead of tape. They will be permanent, though. If you do the above, I would suggest first cutting the VG's in two, then trim the bottom width to 1/2" & glue them on using a cardboard "jig" to properly space the two halves. Howard Shackleford FS II SC ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:53 PM PST US From: HShack@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FS Kiev Hot Prop --> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com In a message dated 11/19/2004 11:52:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, W8IRQ@aol.com writes: I have for sale a Kiev "HOT PROP", in like new condition, $475.00,plus actual shipping. It came off a Trike with a Rotax 503. I am located near Cleveland, Ohio.Ill health forces sale. Call Nick at 330-225-7499, or cell # 216-402-4566. Maybe if you told us diameter, # of blades, direction of rotation, etc. you'd more likely get a response. Howard Shackleford FS II SC ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:08 PM PST US From: "ron wehba" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: off topic aka moving xmas decorations --> Kolb-List message posted by: "ron wehba" WOW, great idea, now just need to find a big boat and go to africa and gettum big animals ,,cheers,ronw ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob N." Subject: Re: Kolb-List: off topic aka moving xmas decorations > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob N." > > Ron, > Two things come to mind(?) > > 1) try Ryder Rents--they have trucks that you can move anything in. > > 2) use actual animals--lay some wires with volts on the ground where > they are tethered. Put a pneumatic tube switch in street, so that > passing cars "light-up" the critters. > > Bob N. always helpful > > do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:32:58 PM PST US From: WillUribe@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: The Sentinel write up on Norm --> Kolb-List message posted by: WillUribe@aol.com http://www.sentinel-echo.com/content/current/front/front.pdf http://www.sentinel-echo.com/content/current/front/front.pdf Will Uribe El Paso, TX FireStar II N4GU C-172 N2506U http://home.elp.rr.com/airplane/ Do not Archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:45 PM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL > > > Kolb Friends - > > I'm thinking of installing VGs on my Mark-3. > > This has been discussed several times on the List in the past, and there > is > a great wealth of info in the archives for me to follow. However, I have > one question: For VGs on the wing, should they be installed on the ribs or > in the valleys? > Dennis, I can't tell you which is best- valleys or ribs, but I can tell you that mine are on the ribs and they have been there for two years with just the sticky tape. I don't believe that I would use a rivet, appears to be unnecessary. Of course my Firestar doesn't go all that fast. :-( Larry Oregon ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:28 PM PST US From: WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: Rotax 447 on Orig FireStar --> Kolb-List message posted by: WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com Ralph B. & Other Kolbers Ralph, Thanks again for the advice to cut the wire on the tach to make it work properly. I've been flying my Original Firestar for ten and a half years now and have put 460 hours on it and the Rotax 377 engine. Recently I checked for carbon and its getting a build up, so instead of decarboning this time, I decided to swap for a used 447 engine I had bought several years ago. Wow! What a difference those extra 5 hp make. Not only does it climb greater (as if I really need that) but at 5000 RPM I am getting about 60 to 65 MPH airspeed, whereas with the 377 I was getting 50 to 55. Although the two engines are very similar, the 447 seems to be slightly rougher and louder. The 377 was a smoother, quieter, sweeter running engine. I'm still getting used to the difference in sound and vibes. Bill Varnes Original FireStar Audubon, NJ ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:35 PM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums At 01:43 PM 11/19/2004, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Silver Fern Microlights Ltd" > > >Hi Dennis, >I have fitted the little perspex VG's from the VG Guy, 'Harrison Designs'. >I have conducted a full flight test schedule with them on our Xtra for UK >approval and they are simply amazing, small light and inexpensive and you >can hardly see them. >They are fitted 2 in each valley at a 3 inch spacing and stuck to the >fabric. >They come with full fitting instructions etc. >They have lowered the stall speed 5Kt or approx 6mph, and we get off the >ground quicker and the landing and flare is much better. I did the same thing with about the same results. - actually 44 on each wing - that is what the template called for - two between each false rib - so I just followed the instructions. They are pretty small and don't have any sharp pointed edges like the "homemade" ones do. ....But they cost a dollar apiece - airplane stuff cost more - right? Here's what they look like. http://possums.photosite.com/vgs/ ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:35 PM PST US DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Lpo6wE28kqisQG1jbc1RVoJ++HLvWXy0hTQhRHZZZPF4H0EBqqKHYPyDzphyCcUKetF3l9mrlMHmauLgCYwk5xyPxsFOpPA8PeE17orcrUe9f0ZVr2KSUbvfEL33C4bhGMr1LXMy33VjkXP0V1QMdQMcEjiNR4zFk5ip/B3ssnI= ; From: Land Shorter Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: Land Shorter Yes, our best success has been to place the VGs in the "valleys" . They work fantastic on fabric covered wings. In fact I just recently got a report from a fellow that did very accurate takeoff-distance tests and after installing my VGs he consistently got 25% - 30% shorter takeoffs. Joa www.landshorter.com Silver Fern Microlights Ltd wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Silver Fern Microlights Ltd" Hi Dennis, I have fitted the little perspex VG's from the VG Guy, 'Harrison Designs'. I have conducted a full flight test schedule with them on our Xtra for UK approval and they are simply amazing, small light and inexpensive and you can hardly see them. They are fitted 2 in each valley at a 3 inch spacing and stuck to the fabric. They come with full fitting instructions etc. They have lowered the stall speed 5Kt or approx 6mph, and we get off the ground quicker and the landing and flare is much better. I think that they need to be fitted in the valley as the air flows over the wing and takes the shortest route which means the flow will be from the rib into the valley. Hope this helps. Mike the Kiwi. ---------------------------------