---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/22/04: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:45 AM - The LOC... (Matt Dralle) 2. 06:32 AM - Re: differential brakes and fuel (Giovanni Day) 3. 07:10 AM - tanks (robert bean) 4. 07:34 AM - Re: differential brakes and fuel (Richard Pike) 5. 12:07 PM - Re: differential brakes and fuel (Giovanni Day) 6. 12:26 PM - Re: differential brakes and fuel (robert bean) 7. 12:41 PM - tnk (robert bean) 8. 01:14 PM - Re: tnk (John Hauck) 9. 01:16 PM - group-buy on poly tanks (Jim Gerken) 10. 01:21 PM - Re: vortex generators (Ben Ransom) 11. 01:28 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (John Hauck) 12. 01:30 PM - Re: Firestar For Sale (woody) 13. 01:30 PM - Re: London strip (woody) 14. 01:37 PM - Re: FireFly Flight Milestone (John Hauck) 15. 01:41 PM - Re: vortex generators (PATRICK LADD) 16. 01:45 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (John Hauck) 17. 02:03 PM - tankage (PATRICK LADD) 18. 02:10 PM - apologies (PATRICK LADD) 19. 02:11 PM - Re: group-buy on poly tanks (Giovanni Day) 20. 02:36 PM - Ten Gallon Tanks (Vic) 21. 02:36 PM - Differential Braking (Vic) 22. 02:46 PM - Re: vortex generators (Richard Pike) 23. 02:55 PM - Re: group-buy on poly tanks (Richard Pike) 24. 03:01 PM - Re: vortex generators (possums) 25. 03:02 PM - Re: group-buy on poly tanks (Jerry Curtin) 26. 03:03 PM - Re: Ten Gallon Tanks (Giovanni Day) 27. 04:38 PM - Re: Differential Braking (Dave & Eve Pelletier) 28. 04:38 PM - Re: Ten Gallon Tanks (kfackler) 29. 05:08 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Richard Pike) 30. 05:44 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Richard Pike) 31. 05:44 PM - Ultrastar for sale (terry) 32. 06:17 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (John Hauck) 33. 07:08 PM - 5 Rib Firestar Wings (Ken korenek) 34. 08:14 PM - Re: 5 Rib Firestar Wings (Chuck Riley) 35. 08:32 PM - Re: 5 Rib Firestar Wings (Ken korenek) 36. 08:55 PM - Re: 5 Rib Firestar Wings (Chuck Riley) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:05 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kolb-List: The LOC... --> Kolb-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Hi Listers, The List of Contributors (LOC) is just around the corner! On December 1st I post a list of everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its sort of my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation for the Lists. Won't you take a moment and assure that your name is on that List of Contributors? As a number of people have pointed out, the List seems at least, if not a whole lot more, as valuable as a building/flying/recreating tool as a typical your magazine subscription. We won't even talk about a newsstand price... :-) Won't you take minute and assure that your name is on the upcoming LOC? Tell others that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your Visa or M/C on the SSL Secure Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or by popping a personal check in the mail to: Matronics Email Lists c/o Matt Dralle PO Box 347 Livermore CA 94551-0347 I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus far in this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps these Lists going and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about how the Lists have helped you! I love to feel the love... :-) Best regards, Matt Dralle Email List Administrator Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:39 AM PST US From: "Giovanni Day" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: differential brakes and fuel --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Giovanni Day" Herb et. al., The titan is a special made tank and not a chemical tank. At least it has no handle and a real filler cap. The original 10gal tank on the "ranger" was 12x12x15 and may work with minimal modification. I may have the name wrong. Giovanni MKIII/912 80566 Three days of IFR weather so still 36.4 hours Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of herbgh@juno.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: differential brakes and fuel --> Kolb-List message posted by: herbgh@juno.com Giovanni I do not yet know what my range is in the Firfly. I would like to fly 120 miles one way. Rough River State EAA flyin is about 90 odd miles , the BUG flyin at Bardstown is about 94. LeeLand Stantons flyin is 100 plus at Nancy Ky. I would also like to fly to the Kolb Factory . My thought is to add a tank behind the current one if CG considerations allow. Other wise a taller tank in place of the current one . I suspect that the 10 gal challenger and titan tanks are off the shelf items? Herb do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:16 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Kolb-List: tanks --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean (string title change) Early in the construction of my MkIII I went through all the sources, boat tanks, race car tanks, etc. I think the 19 gal plastic boat tank once offered by kolb is still being sold somewhere. Finally threw in the towel because of too many other things to worry about. The twin plastic jugs won out. The pluses: very available, easy to remove for access, can run one only for local flights, no gage necessary, easy to pipe up, no problems with sloshing. the minuses: doesn't look "airplaney", not a great location for flammable liquid when I hit an obstruction. I don't like drilling holes in the bottom so put in dip tubes. The vent fitting in the cap swivels so I can leave the hose on when I unscrew it for filling. -Since this design is a generic, several manufacturers have made them so even though they look the same they vary by wall thickness and cap thread pitch (annoying, eh?) The little suzuki burns between 2, 2 1/2 gph so capacity is just right for me. -BB do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:12 AM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: RE: Kolb-List: differential brakes and fuel --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike I have 15 gallon capacity in the MKIII, and for my uses, mostly local with an occasional 100 mile cross country, it is about right. It is almost impossible to tell the difference between flying with it full and with it half full. The tanks are made out of fiberglass and the header tank has a sump drain in the very bottom, however I have yet to get any water out of it. Is it possible that Fiberglass does not produce condensate like aluminum does? Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) At 10:29 PM 11/21/2004 -0600, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Giovanni Day" > >Herb et. al., > > I have spoke to a guy the other day who organized a group of ranger >owner to have a blow molded tank to their liking make. They split the >cost of the mold and every one got a tank with the feature they wanted >for a fair price. Seems to me that if we wanted, we could do the same. >IMHO the 10 gallons on my MKIII are enough as long as I am flying around >the county. Problem is when I want to go XC. I have not done this but >will next summer. Do you plan on any XC in your FF? What is your range >now? What would you be willing to pay for added capacity? One added >issue to added capacity is fuel contamination of water. If you have a >larger tank you will need to keep them full to prevent condensation. >This means your fuel is more likely to go bad if you do not fly enough >each week. This also means flying around with more wt. than is needed >when not going XC. I personal like having smaller tanks for local flying >but would like to have some sort of replacement tank for XC. > >Giovanni >MKIII/912 80566 >36.4 hours > >Do not archive > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >herbgh@juno.com >To: kolb-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: differential brakes and fuel > > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: herbgh@juno.com > >Group > > Wonder why we cannot prevail on TNK to offer a single 10gal tank. >Surely they kow where to buy it? Their 5 gal was less than 20 dollars a >couple of years ago. 10 gal would be in the 20's by that measure. I >have a 9 gal that I want to use on the Firefly but it is too large to >fit and I do not want to do any cutting. Herb > >do not archive >On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:14:00 -0600 jerb writes: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb > > > > At 01:05 PM 11/21/04 -0500, you wrote: > > >"Bob and Jenn B" > > > > Bob, sent this to you direct. > > You can get a nice light weight 10 Gallon Poly tank from Quad > > Aircraft, > > manufacturer of the Challenger. If I recall right it cost me $104 > > plus > > shipping. > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:07:33 PM PST US From: "Giovanni Day" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: differential brakes and fuel --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Giovanni Day" Richard, "Is it possible that Fiberglass does not produce condensate like aluminum does?" Very good question. Seems that the thermal properties of plastic will be different than al. I wonder if we could ask Jack to perform a test on the subject. Maybe weigh two container with equal surface area and then reweigh after a week or so of sitting outside. I know a physics prof. who flies, so maybe if Jack doesn't have time I could get him to help me with it. I am finishing a BSN degree in December, maybe I will do a masters in physics and make this my thesis project. NOT! Better yet maybe someone on the list has the answer? Giovanni MKIII/912 80566 Waiting for the dew point drop another 2.5 degrees below the temp so I can fly again. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:26:43 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: differential brakes and fuel --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean On 22, Nov 2004, at 3:07 PM, Giovanni Day wrote: > > "Is it possible that Fiberglass does not produce condensate like > aluminum does?" > > The thermal conductivity of fiberglass is lower than most metals but the rate of change shouldn't be a factor. Aside from the moisture content already present in the gas the remaining variable is water from replacement air. -too much and the fuel reaches saturation and water condenses out. If you keep the tanks close to full then less air is admitted. Most of the problems I've witnessed were from aircraft parked outside, eventually those flown least frequently gathered the most sump water. Parking under cover saves more than paint and fabric. Some investigation needs to be done on which refineries stick ethanol in their gas and how much. -BB do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:06 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Kolb-List: tnk --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean Has anyone heard how Norm's passenger is doing? do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:14:09 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: tnk --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Hi BB/Gang: I got home a couple hours ago. Departed London, KY, about dark Friday afternoon, after having a suprise dinner with List Member Wil Uribe. Was good to see Wil and catch up on old and new times a bit. Looking forward, both of us, already, for next year's UnPlanned/UnOrganized Kolb Flyin, Monument Valley, Utah. The latest info I have on Chris Davis was from Bruce Chesnut. It was valid as of Thur evening. Chris had been upgraded from critical to serious and was not conscious. I know that is old news, but that is the best I have as of now. If I find out anything new, I will post it to the Kolb List post haste. The trip to London was sad but also rewarding. I gave me a chance to share my sorrow with friends and family, and make closure with Norm. I have no further information on the accident. Speculation would be futile and unfair. I don't intend to try to figure out what went wrong. From top to bottom, TNK personnel are taking Norm's loss very hard. Bruce announced at a get together Friday, his first reaction after Norm's accident, was to plow up the air strip. Then after some thought, decided that was not the right thing to do. Instead, he is naming the air strip LABHART FIELD, in honor of Norm. Chesnut Knolls Aviation Foundation will remain the same. Future sectionals will indicate the air strip at CKAF as LABHART FIELD. Good to be home. I am still buzzing from being on the road for so long behind the old Cummins Diesel. The highways are crowded and a hostile environment to try and survive in. I prefer to fly my little Kolb MKIIIc, rather than dice it out with a bunch of novice NASCAR drivers that have no respect of a truck and 5th wheel. :-) Time to get ready for Thanksgiving. Need to go check on my bird. Weather in not conducive to flying at the present time. Haven't looked at the weather to see when I can get my dose of aviating. Take care, john h hauck's holler, alabama ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:16:44 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: group-buy on poly tanks From: Jim Gerken 11/22/2004 03:16:35 PM --> Kolb-List message posted by: Jim Gerken Sorry, I forgot who proposed the group-buy on molded poly fuel tanks, but, GOOD IDEA! I would participate assuming: It would fit into a stock MKiii, and increased fuel capacity by 25% or greater. One tank or two, either way would work. Does anyone have any contacts in the poly tank molding business so we might understand the costs per tank and the mold cost to split up amongst participants? I think ideally we'd have two 7.5 gallon tanks, built like the stock five gallon tanks, but taller. I don't know if they'd go into the MKiii cage or not. I guess someone will have to do some experiments. Jim Gerken ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:37 PM PST US DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=W5ZTgAgtXjgtenZfoC1I8nm60eHIrDcndmGYKWE+Ap26BuqY6XDMOUj7kzRCeNMtF3Ky4g0S+uNsIRIzQUhgoRm8M0qqQgViD/7JPgd8ovukshmVQcJQQQ2AfoEpiZg0GofQRUjS31v70yFaazxMzguTTRPCJtyjhMwgWluZZqc= ; From: Ben Ransom Subject: RE: Kolb-List: vortex generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ben Ransom Hi all, First off, I got a heads up from Rusty on the terrible news of the crash and loss at TNK. This is real hard news to hear. I thought I'd jump in on the VG thing cuz it is somewhat of an unresolved but back burner interest item to me. I installed VGs on my FS KXP but got no detectable difference in performance. (I imagined that I got a wing drop at stall, but that is uncertain.) I made VGs along the lines of that used by Jack Hart here. However, I used fewer of them. I put one every other rib valley (includes false rib valleys) -- about 12 total per wing if I recall correctly -- and placed them 11" back from LE. I also used carpet dbl stick tape, and after the one and only 30 min test flight at least 2 VGs had chosen an early departure from the flight. :) What I may have done wrong: I decided to put a coat of car wax on my wings before putting on the VGs, because a) this was maybe 6 months after completion of rebuild and the wings had never been washed or waxed, and b) one must work around VGs when washing/waxing. Anyway, I suppose this was part of the easily departing vgs. Note-- standard polytone/stits covering. From other's experience, I probably didn't put enf VGs on to get an effect. Guessing back, I'd say the spacing was about 12" between them. Someday I'll give it another whirl, but I find my Kolb time is usually "i wanna go fly", as my build/tinker time is already pretty taken by my other project. ===== http://mae.ucdavis.edu/~ransom __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:57 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" off the | ground quicker and the landing and flare is much better. | Hi Mike/Gang: 6 mph stall reduction is a significant amount. Is that 6 mph reduction gained while clean or with full flaperons? at altitude or in ground effect? two up or solo? How much quicker does the old MKIIIx levitate with the VG's? In what way is the flare made "much better"? What do the VG's do to the normal stall characteristics of the Kolb wing? I am interested in VG's, although I do not see a place for them on my antiquated MKIIIc. Recently, while flying solo with 15 gal fuel on board, my MKIIIc was stalling between 30 and 35 mph in ground effect at 410 feet ASL. Immediately, some of you automatically decide I am "against" the use of VG's because I ask questions about them, and state I do not intend to use them. Please do not prejudge my interests in what makes them work and how they will improve or degrade safety and performance of our Kolb airplanes. Just trying to learn. I understand Mike the Kiwi has done exhaustive study and tests in order to pass British "FAA" folks to certify the MKIIIx in Great Britain. Hopefully, he can pass some of this information along to us on the other side of the pond. Take care, john h MKIIIc (M3-011) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:53 PM PST US From: "woody" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar For Sale --> Kolb-List message posted by: "woody" Where is he located? I have an old Twinstar that could be part of a swap. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" Subject: Kolb-List: Firestar For Sale > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" > > Guys, > > I have a friend who has a Kolb Firestar and a Mini-Max for sale. His wife wants to fly and he's gonna get something with two seats - I think a Kitfox. Ennerway, he's promised me a steak dinner if I can find him a buyer for both, or a Big Mac if I can only find him a buyer for one. Details are below: > > 1989 Firestar, approximately 100 flight hours, Stits covering, standard instruments with dual EGT and CHT, Brakes, Rotax 377 with balance kit, 83 hours since overhaul, Powerfin Prop plus an extra IVO prop, $5,800. (Trailer Avilable) > > 1996 Mini-Max 1100R Standard instruments with dual EGT & CHT, Brakes, Curved windshield, Fiberglass head rest, Rotax 377, Tennessee Propeller (60-34) $2,100. Would consider selling less engine and propeller. Cover needs to be removed, inspected and recovered. > > Contact Ben at bhmram@c2i2.com or call at 520 803-0630 > > C'MON SOMEBODY, BUY THE PLANES - I NEED THE STEAK DINNER!!! > > AzDave > > Do Not Archive > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:57 PM PST US From: "woody" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: London strip --> Kolb-List message posted by: "woody" I first f lew at London with John and Mspfer. There is an optical delusion as you come in where the side of the hill looks like a flat part of the runway. Surprised me but would not affect a regular user of the strip ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Kolb-List: London strip > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "ul15rhb@juno.com" > > > I have learned that TNK's London KY strip is on plateau and a few feet before the threshold drops off down a hill. Is this true? > > While landing at that end, if there isn't sufficient altitude to make the strip, it looks like the side of a hill (before the threshold) is the only choice. Is this true? > > One would think that anyone flying out of a strip like this would always have enough altitude to make it, then slip it in as a general practice. > > Is there is an alternate choice for a pilot if the threshold isn't made instead of going into the side of that hill or the trees? > > There would be a strong desire to "stretch the glide" should the engine want to quit when the throttle is closed. > > Ralph Burlingame > Original Firestar > > Sign up for Juno Today at http://www.juno.com! > Look for special offers at Best Buy stores. > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:29 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FireFly Flight Milestone --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" FireFly has | passed the 500th take off and landing. On average it has flown about two | times per week since the first flight. | | It is still great fun. | | Jack B. Hart FF004 Jack H/Gang: Congratulations! Make sure you keep the take off and landing column equal. Sounds like you are flying the wings off the little FF. Take care, john h DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:41:54 PM PST US From: "PATRICK LADD" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: vortex generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" G`day Mick, If the two Kolbs are to be in the UK by mid December, the date which you suggested to Mike Handley, they should be about to be put on a boat by now. Or already on. Is there any news? Is there anything which I should be looking to purchase at Telford?. I shall be there on Saturday. Instruments, Intercoms/radio etc., They often have special offers of which I should take advantage. I am going to Sun `n ` fun in April. Anything I should wait until then to purchase? How are approvals going? Vortex Generators, bigger tanks, Jabiru engine etc., I am still aiming for a flying machine up and running by Easter. Sad news about the Kolb pilot killing himself and putting his passenger in hospital. Probably turn out to be a heart attack or something rather than an aircraft fault, but to take this to a personal and detached level, is this going to affect the despatch dates of the kits? See you Saturday at Telford but I would like some comments before then.. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:29 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" They work fantastic on fabric covered wings. | | In fact I just recently got a report from a fellow that did very accurate takeoff-distance tests and after installing my VGs he consistently got 25% - 30% shorter takeoffs. | | Joa Joa/Gang: That is an amazing improvement. Any better and he would be hovering. ;-) What kind of aircraft are we talking about? If it is not a Kolb aircraft, how does it compare to our Kolbs' performance? Do you have any other information about this test other than "fantastic" results? Take care, john h ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:24 PM PST US From: "PATRICK LADD" Subject: Kolb-List: tankage --> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" Hi, this all reminds me of a story. My Challenger is pretty thirsty, 16 litres per hour. Once when flying some distance with my 10 US Gall tanks I took a spare 25 litre tank on the back seat. I have no side filler to the tank so I have to use a pump, which I also have to take with me. Sitting on my spare tank pumping away a couple wandered up and said that they dont see many Challengers in England, but there were a lot in Florida where they had lived for some time. Further conversation followed and it turned out that they knew a guy with whom I had stayed near Lake Wales sevetral years before when I wanted to fly an amphibian for which this chap was the dealer. Not only that but they had the guy staying with them in the UK only the weekend before. Another coincidence. Many years ago I diverted while on holiday in France to visit the factory and to fly an amphibian biplane called a `Petrel`. it was quite an experience, dropping down onto the waters of the Gulf de Morbihan and then landing on the airfield at Vannes/Mucon. Visiting Sun `n `Fun a couple of years later I was having a drink in the bar of the hotel while waiting for a table for dinner. The guy drinking next to me was the pilot of the Petrel who had flown with me in France. Small aviating world, aint it? Pat ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:39 PM PST US From: "PATRICK LADD" Subject: Kolb-List: apologies --> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" Hi everyone, sorry that my last post about kit deliveries was anadvertently sent to the list instead of to Kiwimick personally. This list works the opposite way round to other lists which I am on and hitting `reply` goes to the whole list instead of the individual. Sorry Pat ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:37 PM PST US From: "Giovanni Day" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: group-buy on poly tanks --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Giovanni Day" Jim, I ran across another experimental group who had done this. I do not know the particulars but have contact info and will check into it. I do remember the other project ended up with a 22 gal tank. If we had enough interest we might also get TNK involved. I would think if we could get enough orders together, it would be a no brainer. Even more so if the design would work for more than the MKIIIC and extra. I would be willing to spear head such a project and collaborate on a design if there is enough interest. I could even put up a web site for the project. Those on the list just need to let me know. So lets make it official. Any MKIII owner interested in investing in such a project say "I". Also, if it were possible to make a tank/s that could serve other Kolb owners also, signify your interest by stating "I" and your model. At this point cost is impossible to calculate so I am just looking for interested owners who do have a need for more fuel on board. Giovanni MKIII/912 80566 -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Gerken Subject: Kolb-List: group-buy on poly tanks --> Kolb-List message posted by: Jim Gerken Sorry, I forgot who proposed the group-buy on molded poly fuel tanks, but, GOOD IDEA! I would participate assuming: It would fit into a stock MKiii, and increased fuel capacity by 25% or greater. One tank or two, either way would work. Does anyone have any contacts in the poly tank molding business so we might understand the costs per tank and the mold cost to split up amongst participants? I think ideally we'd have two 7.5 gallon tanks, built like the stock five gallon tanks, but taller. I don't know if they'd go into the MKiii cage or not. I guess someone will have to do some experiments. Jim Gerken ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:36:26 PM PST US From: "Vic" Subject: Kolb-List: Ten Gallon Tanks --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Vic" On my Firstar I have two tandem 5 gallon tanks. I have them plumbed so that the rear tank empties first and when it is empty, the front tank supplies the gas. This way, if I want to take a short trip, I just fill the front tank. If I want to take a long trip I fill both tanks. Also by having the rear tank empty completely before using gas from the front tank, the center of gravity moves closer to the center as the gas is used up. I believe the tanks in the MK II are side-by-side so I don't know if the special plumbing would be an advantage on the MK II. Vic ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:36:26 PM PST US From: "Vic" Subject: Kolb-List: Differential Braking --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Vic" I mounted two brake handles on my control stick in an attempt to have differential braking. I used bicycle brake parts and some home-made parts to make the handles. I have drum brakes but the drum brakes are "a false sense of security". I am in the process of building a set of disk brakes to replace the drums. Hope to have them installed this week. The disk brakes will same me 12 pounds. Without a break-away tail wheel, I am not sure the differential braking is worth the trouble but I may find the disk brakes are effective enough to assist in turning the Kolb. Right now I need a Wal-Mart parking lot to do a 180. If anybody else is working on disk brakes, I would like to exchange ideas. Vic ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:19 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: RE: Kolb-List: vortex generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike I tried them at first with 11 per wing and they didn't do much. Once I loaded it up with one per rib/false rib I got great results. They might do better in the valleys, but they do work great atop the ribs. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) At 01:21 PM 11/22/2004 -0800, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Ben Ransom > >Hi all, >First off, I got a heads up from Rusty on the terrible news of the >crash and loss at TNK. This is real hard news to hear. > >I thought I'd jump in on the VG thing cuz it is somewhat of an >unresolved but back burner interest item to me. I installed VGs on my >FS KXP but got no detectable difference in performance. (I imagined >that I got a wing drop at stall, but that is uncertain.) > >I made VGs along the lines of that used by Jack Hart here. However, I >used fewer of them. I put one every other rib valley (includes false >rib valleys) -- about 12 total per wing if I recall correctly -- and >placed them 11" back from LE. I also used carpet dbl stick tape, and >after the one and only 30 min test flight at least 2 VGs had chosen an >early departure from the flight. :) > >What I may have done wrong: >I decided to put a coat of car wax on my wings before putting on the >VGs, because a) this was maybe 6 months after completion of rebuild and >the wings had never been washed or waxed, and b) one must work around >VGs when washing/waxing. Anyway, I suppose this was part of the easily >departing vgs. Note-- standard polytone/stits covering. > > >From other's experience, I probably didn't put enf VGs on to get an >effect. Guessing back, I'd say the spacing was about 12" between them. > Someday I'll give it another whirl, but I find my Kolb time is usually >"i wanna go fly", as my build/tinker time is already pretty taken by my >other project. > >===== >http://mae.ucdavis.edu/~ransom > > >__________________________________ >http://my.yahoo.com > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:20 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: group-buy on poly tanks --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike With just a few minor mods, (welded a couple small steel tube braces in the tank area) I was able to fit in two 6 gallon red outboard boat tanks like Wal Mart sells. And since they were in at an angle, each held about 6.5 - 6.7gallons. I went to the present system having 15 gallons more to increase baggage space than to have extra fuel. Anyway, the 13 gallon capacity was about enough for most things. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) At 03:16 PM 11/22/2004 -0600, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jim Gerken > > >Sorry, I forgot who proposed the group-buy on molded poly fuel tanks, but, >GOOD IDEA! I would participate assuming: It would fit into a stock MKiii, >and increased fuel capacity by 25% or greater. One tank or two, either way >would work. Does anyone have any contacts in the poly tank molding >business so we might understand the costs per tank and the mold cost to >split up amongst participants? I think ideally we'd have two 7.5 gallon >tanks, built like the stock five gallon tanks, but taller. I don't know if >they'd go into the MKiii cage or not. I guess someone will have to do >some experiments. > > Jim Gerken > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:39 PM PST US From: possums Subject: RE: Kolb-List: vortex generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums At 04:21 PM 11/22/2004, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Ben Ransom > >I thought I'd jump in on the VG thing cuz it is somewhat of an >unresolved but back burner interest item to me. I installed VGs on my >FS KXP but got no detectable difference in performance. (I imagined >that I got a wing drop at stall, but that is uncertain.) > >I made VGs along the lines of that used by Jack Hart here. However, I >used fewer of them. I put one every other rib valley (includes false >rib valleys) -- about 12 total per wing if I recall correctly -- and >placed them 11" back from LE. ----------------------------------------------- From www.landshorter.com Q: It's obvious that all those little "wings" must add some drag, why don't they slow you down? A: Good question. Without going into too much crazy aerodynamic theory just visualize how the little micro VG spins the air and keeps it "attached" to the airfoil. Along the aft portion of the airfoil the air is turbulent and causes drag. By keeping the air attached the turbulent flow at the aft portion of the wing is thinned and offsets the drag caused by the VG itself. Now here's the scoop: any nasty rumors you may have heard about VG's slowing you down a few mph was probably the result of the user placing the VG's too far forward on the airfoil. You will see a lot of installations where the VG's are way up front. In our experience (and a lot of others too) you want to keep them back a little ways (usually around 10% of chord) so you won't reduce your cruise speed. The design of the VG is also extremely important for reducing drag- our VG's are just the right size and shape to provide optimum performance with the minimal amount of drag. This is based on thorough wind tunnel testing as well as considerable "field experience" from happy users. ---------------------------------------------- The instructions say put them on 10 to 12% of the wing cord (including the ailerons) back from the leading edge. Too far forward and they will slow down the cruise speed, too far back and they become ineffective. I put mine about 11% or 6 1/2 inches back from the leading edge as measured through the middle of the cord of the wing. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:57 PM PST US From: "Jerry Curtin" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: group-buy on poly tanks --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jerry Curtin" Hello all, If you look in sport pilot issue for April, on page 31 it shows two 13.5 gallon tanks that are in the Ikarus C42. It also names the US supplier. These tanks look as if they would fit it the Kolbs with no problem. They may be able to be bought separately through the US distributor. Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Gerken" Subject: Kolb-List: group-buy on poly tanks > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Jim Gerken > > > Sorry, I forgot who proposed the group-buy on molded poly fuel tanks, but, > GOOD IDEA! I would participate assuming: It would fit into a stock MKiii, > and increased fuel capacity by 25% or greater. One tank or two, either way > would work. Does anyone have any contacts in the poly tank molding > business so we might understand the costs per tank and the mold cost to > split up amongst participants? I think ideally we'd have two 7.5 gallon > tanks, built like the stock five gallon tanks, but taller. I don't know if > they'd go into the MKiii cage or not. I guess someone will have to do > some experiments. > > Jim Gerken > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:05 PM PST US From: "Giovanni Day" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Ten Gallon Tanks --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Giovanni Day" Vic, How is your plumbing arranged? Do you have to turn a valve? Giovanni MKIII/912 80566 Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vic Subject: Kolb-List: Ten Gallon Tanks --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Vic" On my Firstar I have two tandem 5 gallon tanks. I have them plumbed so that the rear tank empties first and when it is empty, the front tank supplies the gas. This way, if I want to take a short trip, I just fill the front tank. If I want to take a long trip I fill both tanks. Also by having the rear tank empty completely before using gas from the front tank, the center of gravity moves closer to the center as the gas is used up. I believe the tanks in the MK II are side-by-side so I don't know if the special plumbing would be an advantage on the MK II. Vic ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:40 PM PST US From: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Differential Braking --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" Yo Vic, Hope to be seeing you soon. Anyway, in answer to your comment, my differential braking system worked real well on my Firestar. In fact, it probably worked a bit too well because I was 'skidding' the tail wheel around. I didn't worry about it too much since I was skidding on dirt, but the wheel rigging (for lack of a better word) broke - couldn't stand the side stresses. I ordered a new one from Kolb and welded a gusset at the stress point. Didn't have any more problems. AzDave Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vic" Subject: Kolb-List: Differential Braking > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Vic" > > I mounted two brake handles on my control stick in an attempt to have > differential braking. I used bicycle brake parts and some home-made parts > to make the handles. I have drum brakes but the drum brakes are "a false > sense of security". I am in the process of building a set of disk brakes > to > replace the drums. Hope to have them installed this week. The disk > brakes > will same me 12 pounds. > > Without a break-away tail wheel, I am not sure the differential braking > is > worth the trouble but I may find the disk brakes are effective enough to > assist in turning the Kolb. Right now I need a Wal-Mart parking lot to do > a > 180. > > If anybody else is working on disk brakes, I would like to exchange ideas. > > Vic > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:40 PM PST US From: "kfackler" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Ten Gallon Tanks --> Kolb-List message posted by: "kfackler" > I believe the tanks in the MK II are side-by-side so I don't know if the > special plumbing would be an advantage on the MK II. They are side-by-side, and at least in my case, they are cross-connected so that they empty evenly. -Ken Fackler Kolb Mark II / A722KWF Rochester MI ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:10 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike Since it sounds like Mike's experiences might parallel my own, I will throw in my .02$ worth. At 03:29 PM 11/22/2004 -0600, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > > | They have lowered the stall speed 5Kt or approx 6mph, and we get >off the >| ground quicker and the landing and flare is much better. >| > | Mike the Kiwi. > >Hi Mike/Gang: > >6 mph stall reduction is a significant amount. > >Is that 6 mph reduction gained while clean or with full flaperons? at >altitude or in ground effect? two up or solo? In 20P's case, both. Indicated airspeed at stall went from 26 indicated to 20 - 21 indicated, actual was more like from 32 to 26 - 28, about 5 mph reduction. Full flaps or clean, the only difference is the deck angle relative to the horizon when it breaks. Solo you can land slower than before - no exact numbers, the airspeed indicator is falling constantly, but it is slower. With two up you run out of elevator authority when you try to land really slow, there is not enough air flowing over the tail to hold the nose up. Norm flew my airplane for about 20 minutes at the Kolb fly in, mostly in the slow flight mode. His analysis was that it flew better slower, stalled slower, but had a cleaner break when it did let go. He said he really liked the way it flew in slow flight, he said it felt very comfortable. I mentioned to him that trying to land at minimum speed with a passenger, it ran out of elevator authority, and he asked me what speeds I was indicating. I told him that before the vg's I used 55 as a minimum approach speed, but now I could do 45 solo, and could also land at 45 two up, but that the elevators would no longer raise the nose to flare. Part of what I was asking him was his opinion of getting an improvement in elevator authority by modifying the tail with vg's on the stab underside, gap sealing the stab to the elevator, etc. His reply? "Leave it alone and quit trying to land it so slow." Good advice. I decided to take it and go on. As far as landing in ground effect, since I have the stock length main gear, it is now very easy to start dragging the tail wheel when the mains are still in the air. With Miss P'Fers longer legs, she might not do that. >How much quicker does the old MKIIIx levitate with the VG's? It comes off the ground good now, but it came off the ground good before. I can't tell much difference. However, at very steep angles of climb the airplane feels more solid. Very subjective, but also very noticeable. >In what way is the flare made "much better"? I can't tell that the flare is any better at all, just that it will land slower. >What do the VG's do to the normal stall characteristics of the Kolb wing? I spent about an hour feeling it out after I added the vg's, here are my impressions- With partial (5000 rpm) power: With or without flaps, it will hang in there longer, you get a steeper deck angle, and then the break is a bit cleaner or sharper. Recovery seems no different than a Cessna 152, 172, or Piper, very ordinary. In a turn, once again you can hold a steeper deck angle, but normal when it lets go, feels like you would expect it to feel. No unusual or different traits noted either straight ahead or accelerated than from how it was before. With power off: No flaps, it seems very much like before, except a bit cleaner when it lets go. Still not as sharp as a Cessna, more like a fat wing Piper, but gentler. Stalling in a turn does not tend to drop a wing. Have not tried any really steep turn stalls, guess I ought to. With flaps, it seems to hang in there forever, finally you get a nibble around 20 -21 indicated, then it seems to go into parachute mode for a bit - at this point the airspeed indicator has quit decreasing, but you can hear the airspeed decreasing as it flows around the airframe, and you can tell the airplane is slowing down. Simultaneously, the aft pressure required to hold the stick back goes away, it is almost like someone is trying to lift the elevators up for you. I suspect that the airplane is starting to parachute in a level attitude, no stall break yet, but developing a high rate of sink. If you hold the stick steady in the same place, the nose starts to raise a few degrees. Within a second or two after this you get a good clean break, the nose will fall through about 15 or 20 degrees. If you release back pressure, it will recover at once. At the point just before the stall break where the nose starts to raise a bit and the pressure on the stick changes - if you ease the stick a hair forward, it sort of hangs there, you can tell it is right on the edge, sinking like a stone, but not yet breaking. If you push the stick further forward or add power, it returns to normal flight. If you are turning and stall with flaps, it does not tend to drop off on a wing. Have not tried it in a really steep turn stall, guess I ought to. >I am interested in VG's, although I do not see a place for them on my >antiquated MKIIIc. Recently, while flying solo with 15 gal fuel on >board, my MKIIIc was stalling between 30 and 35 mph in ground effect >at 410 feet ASL. > >Immediately, some of you automatically decide I am "against" the use >of VG's because I ask questions about them, and state I do not intend >to use them. Please do not prejudge my interests in what makes them >work and how they will improve or degrade safety and performance of >our Kolb airplanes. Just trying to learn. I understand Mike the Kiwi >has done exhaustive study and tests in order to pass British "FAA" >folks to certify the MKIIIx in Great Britain. Hopefully, he can pass >some of this information along to us on the other side of the pond. John, after all the mods you have done to Miss P'Fer, anybody can see that you are not against trying anything. But I understand your attitude, why try something that might not work, and might just bite you? Or maybe - if it ain't broke, prove to me why I should fix it? >Take care, > >john h >MKIIIc (M3-011) Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:13 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike At 08:05 PM 11/22/2004 -0500, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike > > >In what way is the flare made "much better"? > >I can't tell that the flare is any better at all, just that it will land >slower. Thinking about this some more, I had forgotten that before the vg's, if you got too slow and tried to flare, sometimes the MKIII would mush through the flare like the wing wasn't biting. You flare, and it sort of falls on through. Not any more. I guess if I flared too high, it would fall through eventually, but the mush out through the flare that it sometimes it had before the vg's is gone. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:29 PM PST US From: terry Subject: Kolb-List: Ultrastar for sale --> Kolb-List message posted by: terry I have a friend that is selling his UltraStar after many good years of flying it. He recently acquired a FireStar II and can't fly both. He still loves the way his UltraStar flies, but wanted the extra room and seating capacity of the FireStar II UltraStar with 1400 TT hr.'s., 2SI engine with 140 hr.'s. with 2SI belt drive, 3 blade IVO prop, nose pod, tundra tires, strobe, BRS, Airspeed, VSI, CHT, EGT & Tack Asking $4500 OBO. Wilmer Zimmerman, Lancaster County, PA Phone: (717) 354-9351 Terry - FireFly # 95 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:14 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" vg's, if you | got too slow and tried to flare, sometimes the MKIII would mush through the | flare like the wing wasn't biting. You flare, and it sort of falls on | through. Not any more. I guess if I flared too high, it would fall through | eventually, but the mush out through the flare that it sometimes it had | before the vg's is gone. | Richard Pike | MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Richard/Gang: With or without VG's, mush/stall is the same thing in ground effect or out of it, for that matter. Would depend on airspeed, loading, temp, etc. Would it not? Once the wing quits flying, it is going to head south. Course, I can not comment on what one does with VG's because I have never flown a Kolb equipped with them. What always amazes me is the difference in perception between stalling a Kolb at 1,000 feet agl and 100 feet agl. Either altitude they stall the same, but the perception at the higher altitude is that the aircraft is falling very slowly and recovers instantly. Get into a full stall in a Kolb at 100 feet and it is falling fast and may or may not recover. I am pretty much satisfied with the performance of what I fly. A lot of mods have been done to my MKIII, but none that affect any of the control or flying surfaces, other than reduction of aileron and flap cord, and lowering of the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizers. Most of my mods were made to give me a better shot at accomplishing a flight around the country and up to Alaska in 1994, e.g., more fuel capacity, different seats, changing main gear, dual controls (first ever in a Kolb), 912 (first installed on a Kolb), parachute in the center section, and a lot of little structural changes to increase strength and crash survivability (a lot of these changes are included in the aircraft you all are now flying). I have never messed with Homer's wing, air foil, etc. Don't feel I need to. If I can get touch down speed close to 30 mph, I think I can crash successfully and walk away. For sure, have a good chance to ground loop if I am going to run into a wall or building, rock or some other hard object. I think the little bit of flying I did in the factory FS II is pretty indicative of how well these aircraft fly in their standard configuration. I did not experience any adverse flight characteristics despite the heavy bending of that little airplane. Flew like a well behaved Kolb should. Take care, john h john h ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:13 PM PST US From: Ken korenek Subject: Kolb-List: 5 Rib Firestar Wings --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ken korenek Kolbers: I've got a PERFECT set of 5 rib wings for a Firestar with only 30 hrs flight time. Lift struts and aileron push-pull tubes to go with 'em. Stored in a hangar on a protected storage dolly. Immaculate condition. yellow. They'll bolt right up to a fuselage with little difficulty. The new Titan "S" is moving into my hangar in 2 weeks and I want the wings out of there. I'll take just about any $$ offer and if they are still here in 2 weeks, I'll stuff 'em in a dumpster. Last call. This is a helluva deal for someone smart enough to see it. Somebody come get 'em! Ken Korenek 817-657-6500 daily 817-483-8054 home ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:55 PM PST US From: "Chuck Riley" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 Rib Firestar Wings --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chuck Riley" What part of the country are you located. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken korenek" Subject: Kolb-List: 5 Rib Firestar Wings > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ken korenek > > Kolbers: > > I've got a PERFECT set of 5 rib wings for a Firestar with only 30 hrs > flight time. Lift struts and aileron push-pull tubes to go with 'em. > Stored in a hangar on a protected storage dolly. Immaculate > condition. yellow. > > They'll bolt right up to a fuselage with little difficulty. > > The new Titan "S" is moving into my hangar in 2 weeks and I want the > wings out of there. > > I'll take just about any $$ offer and if they are still here in 2 weeks, > I'll stuff 'em in a dumpster. > > Last call. > > This is a helluva deal for someone smart enough to see it. > > Somebody come get 'em! > > Ken Korenek > 817-657-6500 daily > 817-483-8054 home > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:38 PM PST US From: Ken korenek Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 Rib Firestar Wings --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ken korenek I'd like $1000 for 'em, but I'd settle for $750 in green money. you pick 'em up. I'm in the Dallas/Fort Worth area of north Texas. Call me and we can talk. Ken Korenek 817-483-8054 home 817-657-6500 cell Chuck Riley wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chuck Riley" > >What part of the country are you located. >Chuck >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ken korenek" >To: >Subject: Kolb-List: 5 Rib Firestar Wings > > > > >>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Ken korenek >> >>Kolbers: >> >>I've got a PERFECT set of 5 rib wings for a Firestar with only 30 hrs >>flight time. Lift struts and aileron push-pull tubes to go with 'em. >>Stored in a hangar on a protected storage dolly. Immaculate >>condition. yellow. >> >>They'll bolt right up to a fuselage with little difficulty. >> >>The new Titan "S" is moving into my hangar in 2 weeks and I want the >>wings out of there. >> >>I'll take just about any $$ offer and if they are still here in 2 weeks, >>I'll stuff 'em in a dumpster. >> >>Last call. >> >>This is a helluva deal for someone smart enough to see it. >> >>Somebody come get 'em! >> >>Ken Korenek >>817-657-6500 daily >>817-483-8054 home >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:54 PM PST US From: "Chuck Riley" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 Rib Firestar Wings --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chuck Riley" Ken thanks for the quick reply. However I'm way out here in California. I see you're taking delivery of a Titan 2-S. If you will be considering the spring nose gear mod I have several in stock. I build the Panos spring nose gear now. Thanks to Kimberly. The Titan dealer here in Fresno is talking to client about 2-S with Jabaru 3300. If we can put the package together I'm being considered for its construction. I helped a customer finish his Titan-2 this summer. Good luck and if your building have fun. Chuck Riley http://chucksfalcon.tripod.com riley.nancy@comcast.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken korenek" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 Rib Firestar Wings > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ken korenek > > I'd like $1000 for 'em, but I'd settle for $750 in green money. you > pick 'em up. > > I'm in the Dallas/Fort Worth area of north Texas. > > Call me and we can talk. > > Ken Korenek > 817-483-8054 home > 817-657-6500 cell > >