---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/23/04: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:34 AM - Report On Chris Davis (John Hauck) 2. 08:44 AM - Siphon Tank (Vic) 3. 10:17 AM - Re: vortex generators (Silver Fern Microlights Ltd) 4. 10:19 AM - Re: vortex generators (Silver Fern Microlights Ltd) 5. 10:23 AM - Group buy on poly-tanks (Bob and Jenn B) 6. 11:24 AM - Re: Vortex Generators (Ben Ransom) 7. 11:45 AM - Re: Vortex Generators (David M. Lehman) 8. 11:49 AM - Re: Vortex Generators (David M. Lehman) 9. 11:52 AM - VG's (Jeremy Casey) 10. 12:14 PM - Re: VG's (John Hauck) 11. 02:36 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Richard Pike) 12. 06:30 PM - Re: Group buy on poly-tanks (Earl & Mim Zimmerman) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:25 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Report On Chris Davis --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Good Morning All: Got some good news from Bruce Chesnut last night: | Linda at Kolb forwarded me a copy of your inquiry on the Kolb list. | Cris's wife reported that he was continuing to improve, and that they were | going to move him to Boston tommorrow or Wed. He will be close to home for | Thanksgiving. No word on his condition other than improved. He is aware | of his surroundings now, but has no memory of the accident. Was surprised | that he came to in a hospital. I would think this will come to him later. This is all I have at the moment. If I get further info, I will post to the Kolb List. Take care, john h DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:11 AM PST US From: "Vic" Subject: Kolb-List: Siphon Tank --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Vic" Siphon tank installation for Kolb Firestar The plumbing is quite simple. There are no valves. First, connect your fuel pump to the front fuel pick-up only. Seal the vent in the front tank and vent the front tank through the rear tank. Mod to Front tank: Seal the vent hole in the front tank and installed an un-vented filler cap with a sealing gasket. (My tanks came with a vent line installed using a rubber gasket. I removed the vent tube from the gasket and replaced the vent tube with a bolt to plug the hole) Install two Fuel Tank Access Elbows (CPS Part #7005 - $3.95 each) in top of the front tank. I arrange my front tank so that the fuel pickup is in the front and the two Access Elbows are on the back of the tank (one on each side of the handle) Mod to the Rear tank: Install two fuel pickup tubes in the top of the rear tank: One pickup tube comes with the tank. You will need to purchase an additional fuel pickup and rubber gasket from Kolb to modify the rear tank. Connect the two rear tank pickups via fuel line to the front tank access elbows. Make sure that the rear tank is properly vented. How it works: Because the front tank vents through the rear tank the atmospheric pressure from the vented rear tank pushes the fuel out of the rear tank into the front tank to replace any fuel drawn from the front tank. When the rear tank gets empty then it serves a vent tube for the front tank and the front tank empties normally. Originally I had only one supply line from the rear tank to the front tank but I found out the front tank would partially empty as the rear tank emptied. Adding the extra tube solved the problem. Vic Worthington ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:17:58 AM PST US From: "Silver Fern Microlights Ltd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: vortex generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Silver Fern Microlights Ltd" Hi Pat Mike is very busy getting the Xtra ready for Telford so I will reply as best I can. He does not come home until the early hours of the morning. The kits have not yet left the States. As you rightly point out the sad and unfortunate death of Norm has delayed things a bit. The factory has been closed for a couple of days. Mike will let you know more at Telford. With regards to the mods all paperwork has been submitted to Francis Donaldson and we are still waiting!!!! Hope this is ok for now. See you at Telford. Stella ----- Original Message ----- From: "PATRICK LADD" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: vortex generators > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" > > G`day Mick, > > If the two Kolbs are to be in the UK by mid December, the date which you > suggested to Mike Handley, they should be about to be put on a boat by > now. > Or already on. Is there any news? > > Is there anything which I should be looking to purchase at Telford?. I > shall be there on Saturday. Instruments, Intercoms/radio etc., They often > have special offers of which I should take advantage. > > I am going to Sun `n ` fun in April. Anything I should wait until then to > purchase? > > How are approvals going? Vortex Generators, bigger tanks, Jabiru engine > etc., I am still aiming for a flying machine up and running by Easter. > > Sad news about the Kolb pilot killing himself and putting his passenger in > hospital. Probably turn out to be a heart attack or something rather than > an > aircraft fault, but to take this to a personal and detached level, is this > going to affect the despatch dates of the kits? > > See you Saturday at Telford but I would like some comments before then.. > > Cheers > > Pat > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:19:44 AM PST US From: "Silver Fern Microlights Ltd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: vortex generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Silver Fern Microlights Ltd" Sorry chaps this was for Pat Ladd not the list!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Silver Fern Microlights Ltd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: vortex generators > Hi Pat > > Mike is very busy getting the Xtra ready for Telford so I will reply as > best I can. He does not come home until the early hours of the morning. > > The kits have not yet left the States. As you rightly point out the sad > and unfortunate death of Norm has delayed things a bit. The factory has > been closed for a couple of days. Mike will let you know more at Telford. > > With regards to the mods all paperwork has been submitted to Francis > Donaldson and we are still waiting!!!! > > Hope this is ok for now. > > See you at Telford. > > Stella > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "PATRICK LADD" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 9:41 PM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: vortex generators > > >> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" >> >> G`day Mick, >> >> If the two Kolbs are to be in the UK by mid December, the date which you >> suggested to Mike Handley, they should be about to be put on a boat by >> now. >> Or already on. Is there any news? >> >> Is there anything which I should be looking to purchase at Telford?. I >> shall be there on Saturday. Instruments, Intercoms/radio etc., They often >> have special offers of which I should take advantage. >> >> I am going to Sun `n ` fun in April. Anything I should wait until then to >> purchase? >> >> How are approvals going? Vortex Generators, bigger tanks, Jabiru engine >> etc., I am still aiming for a flying machine up and running by Easter. >> >> Sad news about the Kolb pilot killing himself and putting his passenger >> in >> hospital. Probably turn out to be a heart attack or something rather than >> an >> aircraft fault, but to take this to a personal and detached level, is >> this >> going to affect the despatch dates of the kits? >> >> See you Saturday at Telford but I would like some comments before then.. >> >> Cheers >> >> Pat >> >> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:17 AM PST US From: "Bob and Jenn B" Subject: Kolb-List: Group buy on poly-tanks --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob and Jenn B" I'd be interested into looking into a 10 gallon custom tank that can be retrofitted into a twinstar. Bob ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:24:26 AM PST US DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Xi7O6Q1WB2/dhJ0bWXMuCMAuH37+1WlNq/Gp+vE0HY0k6+aulWmptPhctokJw7/IFaNlUBkR8A0W38uPwqTq/pVLQkr0Scd2MIaIz/iOKhgBgsNCCZ1GN9/kqgiiX0MjPei/ENq4hm/WIxJ5K1tdsSMOLQ+G/2A7oufN081iUVE= ; From: Ben Ransom Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ben Ransom Richard, What is your VG spacing and distance back (% of chord)? I take it from this recent discussion that I would do well to test with more VGs (e.g. every rib valley instead of every other) and closer to LE (instead of 11" back,which is more like 20%). Sort of inspired to give this a try. -Ben --- Richard Pike wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike > > Since it sounds like Mike's experiences might parallel my own, I will > throw > in my .02$ worth. > > At 03:29 PM 11/22/2004 -0600, you wrote: > > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > > > > | They have lowered the stall speed 5Kt or approx 6mph, and we get > >off the > >| ground quicker and the landing and flare is much better. > >| > > | Mike the Kiwi. > > > >Hi Mike/Gang: > > > >6 mph stall reduction is a significant amount. > > > >Is that 6 mph reduction gained while clean or with full flaperons? > at > >altitude or in ground effect? two up or solo? > > In 20P's case, both. Indicated airspeed at stall went from 26 > indicated to > 20 - 21 indicated, actual was more like from 32 to 26 - 28, about 5 > mph > reduction. > Full flaps or clean, the only difference is the deck angle relative > to the > horizon when it breaks. > Solo you can land slower than before - no exact numbers, the airspeed > > indicator is falling constantly, but it is slower. With two up you > run out > of elevator authority when you try to land really slow, there is not > enough > air flowing over the tail to hold the nose up. > > Norm flew my airplane for about 20 minutes at the Kolb fly in, mostly > in > the slow flight mode. His analysis was that it flew better slower, > stalled > slower, but had a cleaner break when it did let go. He said he > really > liked the way it flew in slow flight, he said it felt very > comfortable. I > mentioned to him that trying to land at minimum speed with a > passenger, it > ran out of elevator authority, and he asked me what speeds I was > indicating. I told him that before the vg's I used 55 as a minimum > approach > speed, but now I could do 45 solo, and could also land at 45 two up, > but > that the elevators would no longer raise the nose to flare. Part of > what I > was asking him was his opinion of getting an improvement in elevator > authority by modifying the tail with vg's on the stab underside, gap > sealing the stab to the elevator, etc. > His reply? "Leave it alone and quit trying to land it so slow." > Good advice. I decided to take it and go on. > > As far as landing in ground effect, since I have the stock length > main > gear, it is now very easy to start dragging the tail wheel when the > mains > are still in the air. With Miss P'Fers longer legs, she might not do > that. > > > >How much quicker does the old MKIIIx levitate with the VG's? > > It comes off the ground good now, but it came off the ground good > before. I > can't tell much difference. However, at very steep angles of climb > the > airplane feels more solid. Very subjective, but also very noticeable. > > > >In what way is the flare made "much better"? > > I can't tell that the flare is any better at all, just that it will > land > slower. > > > >What do the VG's do to the normal stall characteristics of the Kolb > wing? > > I spent about an hour feeling it out after I added the vg's, here are > my > impressions- > With partial (5000 rpm) power: > With or without flaps, it will hang in there longer, you get a > steeper deck > angle, and then the break is a bit cleaner or sharper. Recovery seems > no > different than a Cessna 152, 172, or Piper, very ordinary. In a turn, > once > again you can hold a steeper deck angle, but normal when it lets go, > feels > like you would expect it to feel. No unusual or different traits > noted > either straight ahead or accelerated than from how it was before. > > With power off: > No flaps, it seems very much like before, except a bit cleaner when > it lets > go. Still not as sharp as a Cessna, more like a fat wing Piper, but > gentler. Stalling in a turn does not tend to drop a wing. Have not > tried > any really steep turn stalls, guess I ought to. > > With flaps, it seems to hang in there forever, finally you get a > nibble > around 20 -21 indicated, then it seems to go into parachute mode for > a bit > - at this point the airspeed indicator has quit decreasing, but you > can > hear the airspeed decreasing as it flows around the airframe, and you > can > tell the airplane is slowing down. Simultaneously, the aft pressure > required to hold the stick back goes away, it is almost like someone > is > trying to lift the elevators up for you. I suspect that the airplane > is > starting to parachute in a level attitude, no stall break yet, but > developing a high rate of sink. If you hold the stick steady in the > same > place, the nose starts to raise a few degrees. Within a second or two > after > this you get a good clean break, the nose will fall through about 15 > or 20 > degrees. If you release back pressure, it will recover at once. At > the > point just before the stall break where the nose starts to raise a > bit and > the pressure on the stick changes - if you ease the stick a hair > forward, > it sort of hangs there, you can tell it is right on the edge, sinking > like > a stone, but not yet breaking. If you push the stick further forward > or > add power, it returns to normal flight. > If you are turning and stall with flaps, it does not tend to drop off > on a > wing. Have not tried it in a really steep turn stall, guess I ought > to. > > > >I am interested in VG's, although I do not see a place for them on > my > >antiquated MKIIIc. Recently, while flying solo with 15 gal fuel on > >board, my MKIIIc was stalling between 30 and 35 mph in ground effect > >at 410 feet ASL. > > > >Immediately, some of you automatically decide I am "against" the use > >of VG's because I ask questions about them, and state I do not > intend > >to use them. Please do not prejudge my interests in what makes them > >work and how they will improve or degrade safety and performance of > >our Kolb airplanes. Just trying to learn. I understand Mike the > Kiwi > >has done exhaustive study and tests in order to pass British "FAA" > >folks to certify the MKIIIx in Great Britain. Hopefully, he can > pass > >some of this information along to us on the other side of the pond. > > John, after all the mods you have done to Miss P'Fer, anybody can see > that > you are not against trying anything. But I understand your attitude, > why > try something that might not work, and might just bite you? Or maybe > - if > it ain't broke, prove to me why I should fix it? > > > >Take care, > > > >john h > >MKIIIc (M3-011) > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > > > _-> === message truncated === ===== http://mae.ucdavis.edu/~ransom __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:45:16 AM PST US DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=cdn2cYyXWZ0ID8KlY2YB5EOtr553G7frBc6/19HUHcMpwR9czcJrfbzLmio8DDoSGLixwuIEw/hCg7RYfYyelwQKomweZLBnLl5670R7txh2YtJs2AxQW7emTh31/StFq3FSRcPW0RRpTvtgU4sj8fkjrOhOIMCqD5H5ZKn9hpk= ; From: " David M. Lehman" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators From": "\364\277\364 David M. Leh..."@matronics.com --> Kolb-List message posted by: " David M. Lehman" This is the VG spacing on a Super Cub... Note how close they are to the leading edge, theory being that is where the airflow is at high AOA... --- Ben Ransom wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ben Ransom > > > Richard, > What is your VG spacing and distance back (% of > chord)? I take it from > this recent discussion that I would do well to test > with more VGs (e.g. > every rib valley instead of every other) and closer > to LE (instead of > 11" back,which is more like 20%). Sort of inspired > to give this a try. > -Ben > ===== do not archive __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:49:55 AM PST US DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Jl5/VVX2Uz+nXbTf+l0B2xUavbK1UBCqCIUjloFjzjChDQuZG2rfWYIcBS+4Djbm/AcadrME0+0SP4cACzCBTKQIJt2T3fhmwzmWgG6F/NXbaeCmM6JlmqKK5x7u0eR3wcttJkasfdxX+kG9bBA/sT1Rr391sBvhiS/A8RkUWKI= ; From: " David M. Lehman" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators From": "\364\277\364 David M. Leh..."@matronics.com --> Kolb-List message posted by: " David M. Lehman" OK, guess I'm learning, can't attach pictures... --- " David M. Lehman" wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: " David M. Lehman" > > > > This is the VG spacing on a Super Cub... Note how > close they are to the leading edge, theory being > that > is where the airflow is at high AOA... > > > --- Ben Ransom wrote: > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ben Ransom > > > > > > Richard, > > What is your VG spacing and distance back (% of > > chord)? I take it from > > this recent discussion that I would do well to > test > > with more VGs (e.g. > > every rib valley instead of every other) and > closer > > to LE (instead of > > 11" back,which is more like 20%). Sort of > inspired > > to give this a try. > > -Ben > > > > > ===== > do not archive > > > > __________________________________ > http://my.yahoo.com > > > > Click on the > this > by the > Admin. > _-> > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > ===== do not archive __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:52:30 AM PST US From: "Jeremy Casey" Subject: Kolb-List: VG's --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" Hey Kolb guys, First want to say how sorry I was to hear of Norm's accident, was a truly great guy and Bruce's renaming of the field to Labhart field is a very appropriate memorial. Norm seemed to truly be passionate about flying. got my first dual time in Bruce's original Mark 3 with Norm at the controls. Some things you just can't explain. Was reading the digest version and saw all the discussion about the VG's, and since I have a fair amount of experience with them, I thought I'd chime in. First off this "experience" is in a RANS S7, but aerodynamics are aerodynamics so take it for what it's worth. On my particular plane the stall dropped 7 mph from 37 to approx. 30. I say approx. because the pitot is getting to a pretty steep angle of attack and as such the readings are getting less accurate. The spacing on my plane was about 3"1/2 apart. The VG's are a molded polycarbonate wedge type sold from Computer Certainty ( http://www.computer-certainty.com ) They are packaged in packs of 100 for about $100 dollars.yea you can make them yourself but time is money, and these look great and are indestructible. (When glued on they almost disappear on top of the wing thanks to being clear.) Anyway, the improvements of the VG's are no just in numbers.the MAJOR improvements are in HOW WELL it flies slow, not just that it flies slower. The stability is greatly improved and roll rate isn't as "sluggish" at slow speeds. If you are looking for stick force gradients and changes in Dutch roll characteristics, then sorry, I didn't go to that level of testing.try them yourself and make your own judgements. When I called Cub Crafters in Washington (who holds an STC to put the VG's on Super Cubs) to enquire about the glue they used to bond them on, the owner mentioned that they installed VG's on just about every plane that came through their shop. The package they use includes a "strake" or cuff infront of the horizontal stab that increases elevator authority at high angles of attack. Like my S7, the Supercubs become "elevator limited" meaning the elevator isn't powerful enough to pull the nose high enough to exceed the "improved" critical angle of attack. (Remember, the wing stalls when it exceeds the critical angle of attack, no matter the airspeed or attitude? Well the VG's increase the critical angle of attack by delaying flow separation on the top of the wing) In my case the S7 would "PLUNK" down about 1 out of 3 landings.you'd be holding it off to get a 3 pointer and then "PLOP"! No warning, no buffet, nothing, just PLOP! Well the VG's made the S7 so much easier to land CONSISTANTLY.squeak, squeak. They cost me $100 and 1.5 hours to install.absolutely the best $100 I've ever spent on an airplane. DOWN SIDE? Yes, the S7 which used to be so much fun to spin.and would spin every time with a good foot-full of rudder right at stall speed, either direction.became dang near impossible to make act ugly. Maybe 1 out of 5 tries will get a 1 turn spin, which never will go more than a turn even with controls completely crossed.just rolls out into a spiral turn. Oh well, had to learn other things to keep myself occupied. Speed penalty? None noticeable... I read of a Van's RV6 that was outfitted with a swivel head pitot setup and a barograph and after several test flights before and after VG installation they said that it cost them 3 mph. 3 mph on a 200 mph aircraft. I don't think the average 70-80mph Kolb will ever notice that 1-2 mph loss (if any.) Jeremy Casey KiloCharlie Drafting, Inc. jeremy@kilocharlie.us ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:31 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: VG's --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" |I don't think the | average 70-80mph Kolb will ever notice that 1-2 mph loss (if any.) | | Jeremy Casey Hi Jeremy/Gang: Guess that depends on where your average 70-80 mph Kolb is going! ;-) Take care and thanks for the info. john h DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:36:01 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike With all the discussion on vg's, I updated the webpage and added some info, it is at http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/Vortex%20Generators.html Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) At 11:24 AM 11/23/2004 -0800, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Ben Ransom > >Richard, >What is your VG spacing and distance back (% of chord)? I take it from >this recent discussion that I would do well to test with more VGs (e.g. >every rib valley instead of every other) and closer to LE (instead of >11" back,which is more like 20%). Sort of inspired to give this a try. > -Ben ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:30:42 PM PST US From: Earl & Mim Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Group buy on poly-tanks --> Kolb-List message posted by: Earl & Mim Zimmerman Bob and Jenn B wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob and Jenn B" > > I'd be interested into looking into a 10 gallon custom tank that can be > retrofitted into a twinstar. > > Bob I have a friend that retrofitted his MKIII with two 10 gallon tanks with very little modification to the cage. I think that he got the tanks from Titan Aircraft.