---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/15/04: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:05 AM - Center of Lift and CG (David L. Bigelow) 2. 03:02 AM - Re: UltraStar weight and balance (Daniel Walter) 3. 04:37 AM - Re: mo CG (Thom Riddle) 4. 04:53 AM - Kolb-List Digest: - 12/14/04, John's W/B numbers? (Jim Gerken) 5. 06:18 AM - Re: mo CG (GeoR38@aol.com) 6. 06:39 AM - Re: 503 losing power (Mhqqqqq@aol.com) 7. 07:48 AM - Re: Center of Lift and CG (Richard Pike) 8. 07:52 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: - 12/14/04, John's W/B numbers? (John Hauck) 9. 07:55 AM - cg (boyd young) 10. 08:08 AM - Re: cg (John Hauck) 11. 08:33 AM - Pitching moment? (Jeremy Casey) 12. 11:33 AM - Re: 503 losing power (Steve Kroll) 13. 03:02 PM - First flight in my Kolb (Carl Trollope) 14. 03:02 PM - FS II construction (curtis groote) 15. 04:45 PM - Re: First flight in my Kolb (Larry Bourne) 16. 05:08 PM - Re: First flight in my Kolb (robert bean) 17. 05:31 PM - Re: First flight in my Kolb (Beauford) 18. 06:16 PM - Re: First flight in my Kolb (Richard Harris) 19. 06:38 PM - Re: 503 losing power (Wayne T. McCullough) 20. 06:47 PM - Re: FS II construction (John Hauck) 21. 06:48 PM - Re: First flight in my Kolb (John Hauck) 22. 06:59 PM - First Flight After Unprepared Year's Storage (John Hauck) 23. 07:03 PM - Re: 503 losing power (John Hauck) 24. 07:25 PM - 'Chutes .... (artdog1512) 25. 07:25 PM - Re: First flight in my Kolb (Larry Bourne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:05:58 AM PST US From: "David L. Bigelow" Subject: Kolb-List: Center of Lift and CG --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow" I disagree with some of what you say below, Richard. ******************* --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike "The lift applied by the wing is not symmetrical with respect to the surface area of the wing. When you look at a cross section of an airfoil showing the distribution of lift, the front fourth generates very little lift, and the rear two thirds (roughly) most of the lift. And depending on how the back fourth of the airfoil is shaped, you can have big changes in the pitching moment of the wing. If you look at airfoils used for flying wings, they generally have a lot of reflex in the back end of the airfoil to act like a "mini-elevator" to control the angle of attack of the wing, counteract the rotation of the lifting moment around the cg, and prevent pitch over. But the trade off is that flying wing airfoils are less efficient than "standard" airfoils." ***************************** The center of lift of most airfoils falls in the range of 25%-35% of the chord measured from the front. This depends on the particular airfoil and the angle of attack of the airfoil. The further aft the maximum thickness point of the airfoil, the further aft the center of lift is located. For a conventional tailed aircraft, the center of gravity should be kept forward of the wing's center of lift to maintain pitch stability. As the CG moves backward towards the center of lift, the aircraft will become less pitch stable and be more "twitchy" in pitch. A very pitch stable tailed aircraft will be designed so that the horizontal stabilizer is at or near zero degrees angle of attack when the wing is at a stall angle of attack (12-15 degrees). As the designer decrease the angle of attack of the horizontal stabilizer in relation to the wing angle of attack, pitch stability decreases. Measuring from the plans on my FS, the difference between wing chord angle and horizontal stabilizer is 6 degrees. This will produce an aircraft that can be expected to have only slightly positive pitch stability. This tracks with my own Kolb flying experience, i.e. bump the stick and let it go after trimming pitch neutral. The Kolb makes quite a few pitch oscillations before returning to trimmed level flight. If the aircraft has a CG too far rearward, the aircraft will not return to trimmed level flight when the pitch is disturbed. Another clue whether or not the aircraft CG is correct is to look back at the elevator when flying at cruise speed. The elevator should be pretty close to being faired with the horizontal stabilizer. Luckily for all , the Kolb line is pretty well designed and very forgiving - ideal for us home builders. Dave Bigelow FS2 Kamuela, HI ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:02:36 AM PST US From: "Daniel Walter" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: UltraStar weight and balance --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Daniel Walter" Dale, I had a nice fellow with a auto wrecker with an extendable boom lift my Ultrastar for the W&B. He wanted pictures for his most unusual recovery album. Do Not Archive Dan Walter Ultrastar Ul202, 230 hours Palmyra Pa. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Sellers" Subject: Kolb-List: UltraStar weight and balance > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dale Sellers" > > While you guys are on the subject of weight and balance, I have a question. I don't have any techical info on my US so I don't know how to do a weight and balance on it. I have about 10 hours on it now and have wiped out one set of gear on a paved runway and bent another. Unless I fly it on at a pretty high speed, I've found that I can't get the nose up on flair. I suspect a nose heavy problem. Someone told me once to lift the plane by the main spar attach point but I don't have a way to lift it and if I did, I don't know what the angle of the boom should be. Anybody know hou to do a true weight and balance on a US? > > Dale Sellers > Georgia UltraStar > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:16 AM PST US From: Thom Riddle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: mo CG --> Kolb-List message posted by: Thom Riddle 4.6 Pitching moment When using the Foilsim aerofoil flight test simulation program the dynamic and static pressures around the aerofoil are given in the output plot which shows the pressure distribution pattern changing with the aoa. For convenience it is usual to sum that distribution and represent it as one lift force vector acting from the centre of pressure of the aerofoil or wing. The plot on the left is a representation of the changing centre of pressure position with aoa. The cp position is at a distance from the leading edge expressed as a percentage of the chord. At very small aoa (high speed) the cp is located around 60% chord; as aoa increases (speed decreases) cp moves forward reaching its furthest forward position around 30% chord at 10=B0 - 12=B0 aoa; which is usually around the aoa for Vx, the best angle of climb speed. With further aoa increases the cp now moves rearward; the rate of movement accelerating as the stalling aoa, about 16=B0, is passed. Most normal flight operations are conducted at angles between 2=B0 and 8=B0 thus the cp is normally positioned between 35% and 45% of chord. A moment is a force =D7 distance so the movement of the cp of the lift force changes the pitching moment, applied about the centre of gravity; which results in a potential change in the aircraft's attitude in pitch, i.e. the aircraft's nose wants to move up or down. There is a point in an aerofoil called the aerodynamic centre where the pitching moment (lift force by arm length) about that point remains constant as angle of attack changes. For the simple cambered aerofoils that we are interested in, the aerodynamic centre is always forward of the cp and, for most light aircraft wings, located around 25% of the chord distance aft of the wing leading edge. The concept of the aerodynamic centre is useful to designers because it means the centre of application of lift can be assumed fixed and only the lift force changes with aoa. However we, being simple folk, will stick with the concept of both the cp location of the lift vector and the lift force changing as aoa changes. This is from www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/umodule4.html#aerofoils Thom in Buffalo =A0 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:08 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb-List Digest: - 12/14/04, John's W/B numbers? From: Jim Gerken 12/15/2004 06:51:13 AM --> Kolb-List message posted by: Jim Gerken >Pat/Gang: >I am sure my MKIII is within its CG limits, not what the factory publishes. >It has been thoroughly tested over more than 2,000 hours, demonstrating no tendancies >for being set up beyond safe aft cg limits (for my airplane). >Take care, >john h John H: For clarity, could you please expand on the above statements? Specifically, if you've done W/B measurements and calculations since adding that new swiveling tailwheel, what numbers did you get (either in inches or percentage of wing cord)? I would like to improve my tailwheel also, but cannot imagine adding even one pound to the tail, because of current W/B considerations. The moment arm to the tail is so long that adding a pound back there makes it necessary to add about 6 in the nose. I would guess your Maule tailwheel weighs maybe 5 pounds more than the stock setup I am using. I cannot imagine where I'd find room for 30 pounds in the nose! My battery is already in the nose, slightly ahead of the tubular structure. There is nothing left to move forward, to counter a tailwheel upgrade. Engine weight is all behind the center of lift, and my engine weighs less than any of the Rotax four strokes, by 20 pounds or so! The plane is built to plans. I am working to current Kolb-published (from my plans) limits of 37% aft max limit. Obviously, I am wondering how you did it. Are you using a car battery up front or what??!! Thanks. Jim G ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:59 AM PST US From: GeoR38@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: mo CG --> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com In a message dated 12/14/2004 10:00:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, beauford@tampabay.rr.com writes: Ray... Outrage, Sir...! I must take exception to your jocular reference to Lar's reference to "nose heavy tendencies..." I feel your petty personal attack on a seasoned Kolb builder of Lar's reputation to be totally unwarranted, Sir..... Just because Lar is currently best known as the premier constructor of Kolb non-flying southwestern-motif lawn and porch furniture for the past half-decade, does not give you, good sir, license to take cheap shots at my close personal friend.... He's certainly doing the best he can under the outrageously difficult circumstances he has been forced to cope with over the past two...er three... well, mebbe four years..... and I, for one, have a child-like faith that whatever the hell that thing is he is building / has built on his front porch will eventually shake off the years of accumulated desert pigeon crap and mount to the skies as on the wings of eagles... well, mebbe starlings.... or whatever..... Anyway.... I'm absolutely sure he has, at a minimum, read a book somewheres about flying Kolbs.... and he is, therefore, deserving of your full respect when opining about how is is that Kolbs might actually come to fly, taxi real fast, or sit stationary on a dusty front porch .....in a nose-heavy condition. So there....! Beauford FF#076 Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "ray anderson" > Hi Lar, > "I knew you would be contributing sooner or later.What `nose heavy > tendency?` I don't know what you said, but how eloquent it was stated, Beaufort George Randolph firestar driver from the Villages, Fl ps...if there really IS some porch furniture that Lar would disseminate to the world...I NEED some...even if it looks a little like a plane ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:34 AM PST US From: Mhqqqqq@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 503 losing power --> Kolb-List message posted by: Mhqqqqq@aol.com check the points, I had this problem and found my points were not opening far enough mark s.e. minnesota twinstar ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:24 AM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Center of Lift and CG --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike Thanks for drawing my attention to my screwed up explanation. I guess what I was trying to say, (and still may not get it right,) is that most of the wing's lift lies behind the cg, (which is normally around the high point of the airfoil) or the rear two thirds of the wing, which makes the wing want to rotate forward/nose down. If you take a toy glider and take the tail off, keep it balanced as it was when it flew good, and toss it, it usually does an instant nose down tuck, which to me is a good illustration of how the majority of the wing's lift is behind the cg. But if you then take that airfoil and reflex the rear part, eventually you can make it stable again. And on our Kolb airfoils, when the flaps come down, it takes more up elevator to hold the nose up as the center of pressure moves aft. Here's a website I like that explains it so I can understand it - http://www.pilotsweb.com/principle/lift.htm#result Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) do not archive At 12:04 AM 12/15/2004 -1000, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow" > >I disagree with some of what you say below, Richard. > >******************* >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike >"The lift applied by the wing is not symmetrical with respect to the surface >area of the wing. When you look at a cross section of an airfoil showing >the distribution of lift, the front fourth generates very little lift, and >the rear two thirds (roughly) most of the lift. And depending on how the >back fourth of the airfoil is shaped, you can have big changes in the >pitching moment of the wing. If you look at airfoils used for flying wings, >they generally have a lot of reflex in the back end of the airfoil to act >like a "mini-elevator" to control the angle of attack of the wing, >counteract the rotation of the lifting moment around the cg, and prevent >pitch over. But the trade off is that flying wing airfoils are less >efficient than "standard" airfoils." >***************************** > >The center of lift of most airfoils falls in the range of 25%-35% of the >chord measured from the front. This depends on the particular airfoil and >the angle of attack of the airfoil. The further aft the maximum thickness >point of the airfoil, the further aft the center of lift is located. For >a conventional tailed aircraft, the center of gravity should be kept >forward of the wing's center of lift to maintain pitch stability. As the >CG moves backward towards the center of lift, the aircraft will become >less pitch stable and be more "twitchy" in pitch. > >A very pitch stable tailed aircraft will be designed so that the >horizontal stabilizer is at or near zero degrees angle of attack when the >wing is at a stall angle of attack (12-15 degrees). As the designer >decrease the angle of attack of the horizontal stabilizer in relation to >the wing angle of attack, pitch stability decreases. > >Measuring from the plans on my FS, the difference between wing chord angle >and horizontal stabilizer is 6 degrees. This will produce an aircraft >that can be expected to have only slightly positive pitch stability. This >tracks with my own Kolb flying experience, i.e. bump the stick and let it >go after trimming pitch neutral. The Kolb makes quite a few pitch >oscillations before returning to trimmed level flight. > >If the aircraft has a CG too far rearward, the aircraft will not return to >trimmed level flight when the pitch is disturbed. Another clue whether or >not the aircraft CG is correct is to look back at the elevator when flying >at cruise speed. The elevator should be pretty close to being faired with >the horizontal stabilizer. > >Luckily for all , the Kolb line is pretty well designed and very forgiving >- ideal for us home builders. > >Dave Bigelow >FS2 >Kamuela, HI > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:28 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb-List Digest: - 12/14/04, John's W/B numbers? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Morning Jim G/Gang: | For clarity, could you please expand on the above statements? Would like to, but have no current numbers. We always had problems, since day one, to get the weight and balance to work on the my MKIII. I have done enough flight testing to prove to myself that the aircraft is flying safely within "its" CG range. It will not agree with old or new Kolb's numbers, but it will the manufacturer of my aircraft, me. | I would like to improve my tailwheel also, butcannot imagine adding even one pound to the tail, because of current W/B | considerations. The major difference in configuration of my airplane and "normal" plans built MKIII's is the placement of the main gear and the structure that carries it. Moving the main gear forward eight inches has helped off set the heavy tailwheels I have always used, but not significantly, considering where they are located just forward of the middle bulkhead. I am also using 800X6 McQuery Airtrac tires and tubes, heavier than normal wheels, brakes, and axles, but not that much. | I would guess | your Maule tailwheel weighs maybe 5 pounds more than the stock setup I am | using. Jim, probably more than 5 pounds. It is about 5 pounds more than the 6" solid Maule tailwheel I replaced. The 8" Maule Tundra Tailwheel weighs about 10.5 lbs. I figured 11 lbs with hardware. BTW, I have the battery in the normal location just in front of the bulkhead. | I am working to current Kolb-published (from my plans) limits | of 37% aft max limit. I am not working to "current Kolb-published limits". Obviously, I am wondering how you did it. Are you | using a car battery up front or what??!! | Jim G Basically, I bolted that big sucker up and went flight testing. No big a__ car battery or anything else in the nose of Miss P'fer. I will share with you that I had a little apprehension on take off and was extremely careful until I got plenty altitude to start my testing. Pitch attitude changed slightly, with the tail flying a little lower at really slow speeds. However, made the overall feel of the aircraft much better, does not required nearly as much nose up trim in cruise. I put the MKIII through every kind of stall scenario I could think of. Could not get her to drop the tail first or show me any nasty responses. She flew just like she and all the rest of the Kolbs I have flown over the years fly. Well behaved and ready to do my bidding. I am well pleased with the outcome. Wish I had had this set up prior to my last flight to Alaska. Would have been a lot easier on the MKIII with the big pneumatic tire, and on the pilot trying to land a heavy MKIII on pavement. Miss P'fer has turned back into the docile baby on pavement, instead of a tiger. Have much more control keeping her on the pavement. It started during the flight to Monument Valley last May. I was having a terrible time trying to control her landing on pavement. Then I started having problems getting her off the pavement at MV. Thought I was losing my touch. The new Maule with tapered roller bearings on the pivot shaft, instead of the old, sticky, bronze bushing, plus the struts on the lower tailpost, have really tightened up the old gal and made her the sweet flying little airplane she should be. Sorry I can not give you numbers. Never have been good with them. I have experiemented a bit over the years, usually knowing what my airplane will and will not do. I have very little experience with other fixed wing aircraft. Have specialized in Kolbs and glad I did. Did not do that intentionally either. It just happened. I have said this many many time in the past on the List and other places. Kolb aircraft do things that make the aircraft engineers scratch their head, look puzzled, and wonder why their numbers don't agree with what the Kolb is/will do. I learned a long time ago that some things in life happen and I will never be able to tell you why they do what they do. I simple accept a good thing and enjoy it. Take care, john h ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:58 AM PST US From: "boyd young" Subject: Kolb-List: cg --> Kolb-List message posted by: "boyd young" Patrick and others, The center of gravity in all stable conventional aircraft is in front of the wing so there is always a forward pitching moment that the tail must overcome. Denny Rowe, Mk-3, PA ------------------------------- Denny you may have the corect concept but the wrong wording..... the center of gravity should be infront of the center of lift. thus making the plane stable... and forcing the tail surfaces to have a downward thrust..... that said i have had a problem with another concept, can anyone help? i have been told that the center of lift is usually around the 25% portion of the wing. or the thickest part, the main spar. if that is so and the rear cg limit is at 35% then the tail surface would have to be a lifting surface...... so in my feeble mind the center of lift would have to be a percentage of the wing greater than the % of the wing in relation to the cg. what am i missing? i know that the center of lift changes to the rear as the aircraft increases in speed. but in the small speed changes the kolbs fly how much does it change? and where is it in reality? boyd ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:21 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: cg --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" i know that the center of lift changes to the rear as the aircraft increases in speed. but in the small speed changes the kolbs fly how much does it change? and where is it in reality? | | boyd Morning Boyd/Gang: As I said in my last post. Some things I can not explain, so I accept and enjoy. Kolb aircraft is one of the things I accept in my life. Take care, john h DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:23 AM PST US From: "Jeremy Casey" Subject: Kolb-List: Pitching moment? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" Ladies and Gentlemen=85 Got to clarify one point that has been mismashed pretty bad in the recent discussion on stability and airfoils and desert pigeon crap=85 (huh?) Anyway there are 2 different terms beings intertwined here that are in fact very different critters. 1.Cg limits. Yes the center of gravity is always in FRONT of the center of lift of the wing and the tail is actually producing DOWN force to counteract the off balance. If the CG ever gets back to the actual center of lift then the plane does what Richard Pike described about his model and the Hummer with the light weight pilot=85it acts like the plane is balanced on the head of a pin and will not even remotely act =93stable=94 (i.e. remove hands from stick and it semi-stays put=85) This is called having no =93static margin=94 The further the CG moves in front of the Center of lift then the greater the =93static margin=94 and the more =93stable=94 the plane feels. This works right up until the point where you move the CG forward so far that the tail cannot generate enough =93downforce=94 to pick up the nose when you get slow (I.e. landing) 2.The second term that is being thrown around is =93pitching moment=94. This is a tendency for an airfoil to generate a torque about the center of lift (which is usually at the =BC chord point=85i.e. 4 ft chord wing, it would be 1=92 back from the leading edge) This is usually a function of how much camber the airfoil has. I highly cambered airfoil has a large tendancy to rotate nose down at higher airspeeds, while a symmetrical airfoil does not. This is as deep as this explanation needs to go here=85just know that there are 2 different causes for the tendency for the plane to pitch nose up or down and they both contribute to deciding what the CG =93limits=94 are for stable, controllable flight at all airspeeds. You can set these limits by careful calculation and testing or by a lucky guess. Either way can work and either way can fail=85you be the judge. If you have a big curiousity as to why your airplane of choice behaves like it does then get a couple of books from EAA or Aircraft Spruce. A few good ones are GA airfoils by Harry Riblett, Airfoil Selection by Barnaby Wainfan, and if you have some old copies of Sport Aviation or the 50 year CDROM compilation then go back to around 90-91 and read the series of articles on aircraft design by John Roncz. Jeremy Casey KiloCharlie Drafting, Inc. jeremy@kilocharlie.us ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:10 AM PST US DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ISO9Q6TxvR/l89D5PxuVCpWQ9aZvdtiK4kzC8BpBFxMf04Ss4gjLje/nSetgQwPcaHwQ4aMfdZqnHjwmGWU4XR9bmmH0q0azIAn2/agmM/Uo2f2Roc9euwX+8GUkqIbuaesEK5HAi5rbJ8Zis6vxqrJRzrYA3gm6wv1G2Wt/rw4= ; From: Steve Kroll Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 503 losing power --> Kolb-List message posted by: Steve Kroll Thanks Will for the suggestion....I'll give that a shot too. With regard to the loop, are you suggesting that the fuel line comes out of the carb and makes this loop above or below the carb? I have noticed bubbles in the line before. I have the same experience as you with the dead stick landing in the Kolb. Fortunately for me, I was within easy reach of the field and I have plenty of experience with dead stick as I learned to fly in a Sweitzer 2-33 and have probably 400 hours or so in all kinds of gliders. My Mk-2 is no glider as the glide angle without power "looks" like 40 degrees at 50 MPH (that was a bit of a shock). Some of the boys in here with Mk-3's probably have a little better penetration than I do with the extra weight they carry but I expect their airplanes come down in a hurry too without power. Since my engine out, I tend to fly much higher than I used to, remembering that 40 degree glide angle and constantly looking down that angle at the possibilities for a safe dead stick landing. It is lodged firmly in my mind now that it is not IF, but WHEN the engine quits and it is always on my mind while in flight. And hey, the view from 2000 AGL is even more beautiful than from 500 :-) Steve --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:48 PM PST US From: "Carl Trollope" Subject: Kolb-List: First flight in my Kolb --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Carl Trollope" Hi, Just a few words to say that I have now flown my Kolb MkIII...... I completed my conversion from weightshift a couple of weeks ago in 5 hours in an AX3... wow what an awful flying creation.... As soon as I had weather it was in the Kolb and away...... I had been concerned about landing it as I had had quite an exciting experience on the delivery flight with its previous owner flying it.... Landing was proceeded by those Australian words of foreplay... brace yourself....!! Anyway with lots of words of advice from the list... I strapped in and away we went.. I need not have worried as the landings were quite uneventful.... and the approach to my field is very tricky....... She flies very nicely indeed and has an impressive rate of climb compared to my 447 powered Flash II...... Carl ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:48 PM PST US DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=xI3ZiejJf2zL+DAbHSLAI75gvukdCYKgW9Psh3wijbhO0kBd7HhAmBb4qruRsIZlRIn4E/Q3YYBkN2RGHgJ4dsu7BZyoScPgwAoLrVY8Xl+eytWLhO7nCi2sl6dQwjachQ0UDC1dHrqJ5xhk7oxTzcWIYnTbMKGQLqLz2yctvNQ= ; From: curtis groote Subject: Kolb-List: FS II construction --> Kolb-List message posted by: curtis groote I have the individual tail pieces, wings, and ailerons assembled. Two questions: 1)The order in the manual for temporary attachment of the tailfeathers to the cage and fuselage tube is: attach tailfeathers to the tube; insert fuselage tube into cage; align tail to cage, drill the 3/8" holes in fuselage tube for H-section; remove fuselage tube; install H-section. Would it be easier to insert tube into cage and temporarily secure it; mark for the 3/8"holes; remove tube and install H-section; reinsert and then attach and align tailfeathers? 2)I'll need room in my workspace to do all the above so I'll need to dismantle the 4'x12' worktable I built the pieces on. Is there any further reason I'd need the table at this point in construction? There doesn't appear to be unless I'm missing something. Thanks a lot. Curt Groote ===== __________________________________ Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:45:49 PM PST US From: "Larry Bourne" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: First flight in my Kolb --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" Congratulations, Carl, good on you. You've got lots of room down there to play with a toy like that, for sure. Lar. Do not Archive. Larry Bourne Palm Springs, CA Building Kolb Mk III N78LB Vamoose www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Trollope" Subject: Kolb-List: First flight in my Kolb > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Carl Trollope" > > > Hi, > > Just a few words to say that I have now flown my Kolb MkIII...... > > I completed my conversion from weightshift a couple of weeks ago in 5 > hours > in an AX3... wow what an awful flying creation.... > > As soon as I had weather it was in the Kolb and away...... > > I had been concerned about landing it as I had had quite an exciting > experience on the delivery flight with its previous owner flying it.... > > Landing was proceeded by those Australian words of foreplay... brace > yourself....!! > > Anyway with lots of words of advice from the list... I strapped in and > away > we went.. > > I need not have worried as the landings were quite uneventful.... and the > approach to my field is very tricky....... > > She flies very nicely indeed and has an impressive rate of climb compared > to > my 447 powered Flash II...... > > Carl > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:27 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: First flight in my Kolb --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean Well done Carl. Now some of us will have to see what an AX3 is. I imagine you will have a lot of fun demonstrating your Kolb to local aviation. -BB do not archive On 15, Dec 2004, at 6:01 PM, Carl Trollope wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Carl Trollope" > > > > Hi, > > Just a few words to say that I have now flown my Kolb MkIII...... > > I completed my conversion from weightshift a couple of weeks ago in 5 > hours > in an AX3... wow what an awful flying creation.... > > As soon as I had weather it was in the Kolb and away...... > > I had been concerned about landing it as I had had quite an exciting > experience on the delivery flight with its previous owner flying it.... > > Landing was proceeded by those Australian words of foreplay... brace > yourself....!! > > Anyway with lots of words of advice from the list... I strapped in and > away > we went.. > > I need not have worried as the landings were quite uneventful.... and > the > approach to my field is very tricky....... > > She flies very nicely indeed and has an impressive rate of climb > compared to > my 447 powered Flash II...... > > Carl > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:55 PM PST US From: "Beauford" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: First flight in my Kolb --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" Good on 'ya, Carl...... Welcome to the Kolb whatever the-hell-this is...... brotherhood, I reckon.... (now you sisters out there, that was just a figure of speech...) Here's wishing you countless fun-filled and safe hours in your machine... Beauford, the aluminum butcher of chilly Brandon, Florida... FF #076 P.S. Just wonderin'... do you need RIGHT rudder on takeoff....? I mean... being down there and all.... just wonderin'.... b. do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Trollope" Subject: Kolb-List: First flight in my Kolb > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Carl Trollope" > > > Hi, > > Just a few words to say that I have now flown my Kolb MkIII...... > > I completed my conversion from weightshift a couple of weeks ago in 5 > hours > in an AX3... wow what an awful flying creation.... > > As soon as I had weather it was in the Kolb and away...... > > I had been concerned about landing it as I had had quite an exciting > experience on the delivery flight with its previous owner flying it.... > > Landing was proceeded by those Australian words of foreplay... brace > yourself....!! > > Anyway with lots of words of advice from the list... I strapped in and > away > we went.. > > I need not have worried as the landings were quite uneventful.... and the > approach to my field is very tricky....... > > She flies very nicely indeed and has an impressive rate of climb compared > to > my 447 powered Flash II...... > > Carl > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:16:53 PM PST US From: "Richard Harris" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: First flight in my Kolb --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Harris" > > Congratulations, Carl, good on you. Hello, Kolb list ..I am back after almost a year of being out of the country,( I work for a chemical company that has holdings in the middle East and that's all I willl say about that) not being on the list or flying my MK3.. It's Interesting to me that the list has not changed much, ( like watching a soap on TV ) Everyone is still resenting John H. for his vast experancince and knowledge of Kolb aircraft and willingness to help ANYONE, Big Lar still has not got Vamoose in the air ( not much surprise there, hi Lar. buddy ) , but most of all everyone is really enjoying their Kolb flying machine, or soon to be flying maching ...and all subjects are getting really good advice and discussion and a lot of help being offered. I may need some help myself trying to get my MK 111 back in the air. I left it just as it was when I landed the last time, left in a hurry, so no prep for long time storage. John, Big Lar, Yall come back to Arkansas and help and I will put you up and feed you again. Treat you in so many ways you got to like some of them.. Richard Harris Arkansas MK3 ser.# 233 N912RH P.S. That CG thing is covered in all the stuff you get from the FAA, Kolb,EAA, and the local club.. He, He.. sorry ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:02 PM PST US From: "Wayne T. McCullough" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 503 losing power --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Wayne T. McCullough" Hey guys, I read this board every day sometime a lot.....Still building on Kolbra Kit #4 ......John Williamson , I will e-mail pics as work progresses, and thanks to Paul Petty for the disc......Yep, its great to be on here with so much experience and knowledge. In Springfield, GA right above Savannah.....Yep, its cold here too.....Good grief at all the pictures of Kolbs...Must come up with an outstanding paint scheme to beat all of you....LOL......33 years in auto collision and wife retired from corporate aviation...... Stay tuned..... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Kroll" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 503 losing power > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Steve Kroll > > Thanks Will for the suggestion....I'll give that a shot too. With regard > to the loop, are you suggesting that the fuel line comes out of the carb > and makes this loop above or below the carb? I have noticed bubbles in > the line before. > > I have the same experience as you with the dead stick landing in the Kolb. > Fortunately for me, I was within easy reach of the field and I have plenty > of experience with dead stick as I learned to fly in a Sweitzer 2-33 and > have probably 400 hours or so in all kinds of gliders. My Mk-2 is no > glider as the glide angle without power "looks" like 40 degrees at 50 MPH > (that was a bit of a shock). Some of the boys in here with Mk-3's > probably have a little better penetration than I do with the extra weight > they carry but I expect their airplanes come down in a hurry too without > power. > > Since my engine out, I tend to fly much higher than I used to, > remembering that 40 degree glide angle and constantly looking down that > angle at the possibilities for a safe dead stick landing. It is lodged > firmly in my mind now that it is not IF, but WHEN the engine quits and it > is always on my mind while in flight. And hey, the view from 2000 AGL is > even more beautiful than from 500 :-) > > Steve > > > --------------------------------- > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:53 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FS II construction --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" | temporarily secure it; mark for the 3/8"holes; remove | tube and install H-section; reinsert and then attach | and align tailfeathers? Hi Curt/Gang: I don't know about the manual, but all three of my Kolbs were built: 1-Tail boom to fuselage. 2-Tail feathers to boom tube. Seems like it was easier for me to square the tail section to the tail boom already attached to a level fuselage, than it would have been rigging a tail boom with tail section to the fuselage. Don't reckon it matters either way, as far as I am concerned. Whatever works best for you. john h hauck's holler, alabama 28F and falling.............. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:32 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: First flight in my Kolb --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" | Just a few words to say that I have now flown my Kolb MkIII...... | Carl Hi Carl/Gang: Congratulations!!! Welcome to the Kolb List. john h MKIII/912ULS DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:01 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: First Flight After Unprepared Year's Storage --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" air. I left | it just as it was when I landed the last time, left in a hurry, so no prep | for long time storage. Richard/Gang: Well...........welcome home!!! Wondered where you had gotten off to, or whether or not you were PO'd at me and did not want to answer the phone or return my calls. Tried to contact you on my flight to Monument Valley last May, and again on my return flight to Alabama. In fact, flew right over your house at the lake, and the air strip. Thought I had been divorced or somthing. Takes clean fuel to make a 912 go. I'd make sure everything was cleaned out good, especially the float bowls, idle and main jets. If you use mickey mouse "I can see my fuel" fuel line, I'd change it out for some real old fashioned black neoprene Gates fuel hose. Then you won't have to worry about the bubbles in the fuel lines. Maybe a new set of NGK plugs also. If I were going to be the initial test pilot, I'd tie it down securely, fire it up, and insure it was going to run well at full power and cruise settings. Not just for a minute or two, but much longer. Any problems from sitting in that old hanger of yours for a year undisturbed by humans will probably surface during that static test. Make sure you run out all the coon, possums, squirrels, spiders, and rats, before you try to fly it. Richard and his wife know how to take care of us out of town folks. I had the pleasure to RON at Richard's two years ago on the way to Monument Valley. We had a good time. Wish I could have stayed a week. I don't know if Richard could have put up with me for that long or not. Glad to have you back, Richard. Take care, johnh ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:07 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 503 losing power --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Kolbra Kit | #4 ...... | Hi Wayne/All: Welcome aboard! Good to have another Kolbra builder. One of my favorite Kolb aircraft, although I don't get to fly them very often. Take care, john h DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:04 PM PST US DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=f7EPKVraVK96aprpjxlIpZqKXn2ya4dHhft8+LwUZpmRqaqyporsJmSNp1oVyG6RxeSqM9uOlh7NmaVSi9aTL1tCz9mflqav7xkiFEosfAO3vgGoNfC87yQA3kNU19Uot8vTs05MJ9KURaAm/fd67NeBgixyMdNhqAMtNm6s0Bc= ; From: artdog1512 Subject: Kolb-List: 'Chutes .... --> Kolb-List message posted by: artdog1512 here's a question for "the list".... i have a Second Chantz chute that's about 15 or 20 years old that's never been deployed, is it still good? ..tim __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:57 PM PST US From: "Larry Bourne" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: First flight in my Kolb --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" Man, you baaaaaaad ! ! ! I..uh..don't think QUITE ever'body resents ol' John - I know I sure don't, and we'd sure miss him if he quit participating. Speaking of which, I've wondered why we haven't heard from you in so long, so now we know. I thoroughly enjoyed my visit with you & Charlotte 2 summers ago, and hope for another visit. Maybe next summer, as I'll be coming that general direction again, but not sure yet by which route. Done the southern coast 3 times now..........yawn.........it's getting sooooo old, ya know ?? Good luck with your plane, I hope it's all OK. I imagine you'll have a major mowing job on that enormous grass runway of yours, eh ?? Jaded Lar. Do not Archive. Larry Bourne Palm Springs, CA Building Kolb Mk III N78LB Vamoose www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Harris" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: First flight in my Kolb > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Harris" > > >> >> Congratulations, Carl, good on you. > > Hello, Kolb list ..I am back after almost a year of being out of the > country,( I work for a chemical company that has holdings in the middle > East > and that's all I willl say about that) not being on the list or flying my > MK3..