Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:03 AM - Test message (Jimmy)
2. 08:28 AM - Test message / FS II inquiry (Richard Pike)
3. 08:29 AM - Re: Test message (John Hauck)
4. 08:54 AM - Re: Trip to Hauck's Holler (HShack@aol.com)
5. 09:07 AM - FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison (John Hauck)
6. 09:14 AM - Re: Trip to Hauck's Holler (John Hauck)
7. 09:41 AM - Re: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison (John Williamson)
8. 10:27 AM - Re: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison (Richard Pike)
9. 10:51 AM - Re: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison (John Hauck)
10. 12:28 PM - 582 Firestar II (Domenic Perez)
11. 01:07 PM - Emailing: P3060010, P3060013 (H MITCHELL)
12. 01:56 PM - Re: 582 Firestar II (HShack@aol.com)
13. 02:41 PM - Re: 582 Firestar II (Richard Pike)
14. 02:56 PM - Monument Valley 2005 (John Williamson)
15. 03:30 PM - Re: 582 Firestar II (Denny Rowe)
16. 03:44 PM - Re: Emailing: P3060010, P3060013 (John Hauck)
17. 04:16 PM - Re: 582 Firestar II (Earl & Mim Zimmerman)
18. 07:55 PM - Re: Test message / FS II inquiry (Larry Cottrell)
19. 08:13 PM - Re: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison (Richard Pike)
20. 09:23 PM - Re: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison (John Williamson)
Message 1
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jimmy" <jhankin@planters.net>
Is the list working??
No messages today here
JH
Do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Test message / FS II inquiry |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
I noticed that, I never got a response to a question I asked the other day
either.
Trying again - Flying the Firestar II feels very different from the MKIII.
Is this typical? Should a correctly trimmed FS II feel similar to a MKIII
or vice versa?
Thanks
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
FS II N582EF
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/kolb.htm
At 11:01 AM 3/18/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jimmy" <jhankin@planters.net>
>
>Is the list working??
>No messages today here
>JH
>Do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Test message |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
| No messages today here
| JH
Hi Jim/Gang:
Got you loud and clear at hauck's holler.
You are the first to post today. Congratulations!!! ;-)
Thought it was going to be a good day to fly today, but have my
doubts. I need to fly over to my buddy's place across the lake and
use his hose to Gunk my engine. I may have a little oil leak up front
and bottom of the crankcase, or I may have spilled some oil during
last oil change. I didn't have time to Gunk it then, so maybe when I
do it will turn out to be a spill and not a leak. Got my fingers
crossed.
Little over 3 weeks until time to pack up and take off for Sun and
Fun. I am ready to go now. Tired of wind and winter weather.
Looking forward to seeing my old friends and making some new ones at
Lakeland.
Take care,
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Trip to Hauck's Holler |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com
In a message dated 3/18/2005 11:29:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jhauck@elmore.rr.com writes:
Got you loud and clear at hauck's holler.
John H., what's the closest town to Hauck's Holler? Several of us were on a
trip a few days ago looks like
pretty good trip from western SC.........Trying to figure distance.
Howard Shackleford
FS II
Trenton [6J6]
SC
Message 5
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| Subject: | FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
MKIII.
| Is this typical? Should a correctly trimmed FS II feel similar to a
MKIII
| or vice versa?
| Thanks
| Richard Pike
Morning Richard/Gang:
Just came in from outside and my fingers are stiff and cold. hehehe
I didn't respond to your question when you asked the first time to
give others a chance to give their view on comparing flying the FSII
and the MKIII.
All of Homer's airplane models fly the same, feel very similar, taking
into consideration the differences in weight, physical size, and power
plants installed.
Luckily, I got several hours in the factory FSII at the last Kolb
Homecoming, Sep 04. I flew the Sport 600, then the MKIIIXtra, and
finally got into the FSII. Ahhhhh! The little FSII felt right at
home, like my old MKIII. I did not particularly like the way the Xtra
felt, but I have a lot of hours in my MKIII. To me, airplanes are
like an old pair of boots. Once you get used to them and get them
broken in good, they always feel better than something different.
Also, the Xtra was not one of Homer's designs, nor was the Kolbra.
But........I flew Mark Seller's Kolbra and felt right at home in it.
As much time as you have in your MKIII, I would think the FSII will
probably feel different. I don't know what other airplanes you have
been flying, or if you have previous time in a FS. Also, you have
made considerable modifications to your MKIII. Maybe that is the
difference.
In conclusion, to me, they should both feel good, comfortable to the
pilot when flying them.
I doubt if that will help, but the best I can due right now. ;-)
john h
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Trip to Hauck's Holler |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
were on a
| trip a few days ago looks like
| pretty good trip from western SC.........Trying to figure distance.
|
| Howard Shackleford
Shack/Gang:
252 deg at 237.8 nm (273.656 sm) to Wetumpka Airport 08A.
Not a bad flight.
I can give you coordinates to my airstrip which is 11.2 sm 020 deg
from 08A.
You all are welcome any time. Just call first and make sure I am
going to be home. My feet are getting itchy and I feel the need to
fly/travel. ;-)
Take care,
john h
334-567-6280 H
334-315-2621 C
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 7
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| Subject: | FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot@comcast.net>
Richard, John H,
The Kolbra you flew at the last TNK Homecoming belongs to Mark German from
Chisago City, MN.
I have a little time in a 503 powered FSII and the control feel was very
similar to the Kolbra. The Kolbra weighs twice as much as the FSII so the
controls were proportionately heavier. It was a fun airplane to fly.
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolb Kolbra,
http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot
do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
That helps a lot, because since I sent out my inquiry earlier today, I got
a call from a flying buddy, you have probably met him or at least seen him,
he is the one that has flown the Aircam to the Kolb homecoming several
times (Says it is one of his favorite flights, he thinks Kolbers are the
friendliest people around)
Anyway, I mentioned it to him, and he said he thinks it is because this
particular FS II has dihedral and most don't , that we have traded agility
for stability. I suspect he is right, because the biggest difference is
that my MKIII feels much more agile, and I would have expected the FS II to
feel more agile. So now we have a FS II that flies hands off due to the
dihedral, flies good, easy and comfortable to fly, but just not as agile as
I expected.
I was thinking about putting a bit of dihedral in my MKIII, but not now. I
prefer agility to stability.
We have a spare set of struts for the FS II that eliminates the dihedral,
might just stick them on and see what that does.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
At 11:08 AM 3/18/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> | Trying again - Flying the Firestar II feels very different from the
>MKIII.
>| Is this typical? Should a correctly trimmed FS II feel similar to a
>MKIII
>| or vice versa?
>| Thanks
>| Richard Pike
>
>
>Morning Richard/Gang:
>
>Just came in from outside and my fingers are stiff and cold. hehehe
>
>I didn't respond to your question when you asked the first time to
>give others a chance to give their view on comparing flying the FSII
>and the MKIII.
>
>All of Homer's airplane models fly the same, feel very similar, taking
>into consideration the differences in weight, physical size, and power
>plants installed.
>
>Luckily, I got several hours in the factory FSII at the last Kolb
>Homecoming, Sep 04. I flew the Sport 600, then the MKIIIXtra, and
>finally got into the FSII. Ahhhhh! The little FSII felt right at
>home, like my old MKIII. I did not particularly like the way the Xtra
>felt, but I have a lot of hours in my MKIII. To me, airplanes are
>like an old pair of boots. Once you get used to them and get them
>broken in good, they always feel better than something different.
>Also, the Xtra was not one of Homer's designs, nor was the Kolbra.
>But........I flew Mark Seller's Kolbra and felt right at home in it.
>
>As much time as you have in your MKIII, I would think the FSII will
>probably feel different. I don't know what other airplanes you have
>been flying, or if you have previous time in a FS. Also, you have
>made considerable modifications to your MKIII. Maybe that is the
>difference.
>
>In conclusion, to me, they should both feel good, comfortable to the
>pilot when flying them.
>
>I doubt if that will help, but the best I can due right now. ;-)
>
>john h
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
German from
| Chisago City, MN.
Thanks for the correction John W.
I knew I was wrong, but could not think of Mark's last name. Mark
Sellers is the MKIII owner/flyer that graduated to a "real" airplane
recently. Good man. He is a wealth of info on aviation law. Gonna
get up that way to see him one of these days. Maybe he will make it
to Homer's flyin in June. Are you planning to try and make the flyin
at Homer's, John W and Richard P?
Forgot about the dihedral you all had put into the FSII. I remember
seeing it first glance at the photo you posted. Homer said the only
reason he designed any dihedral into the Kolb aircraft wings was for
aesthetic reasons only. On the ground, with no dihedral, the wings
look like they are drooping.
I'll give up a little stability for agility anytime in my Kolbs.
john h
Message 10
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Domenic Perez" <perezmdomenic@plateautel.net>
Richard Pike,
Looking over the photos of the structural mods beefing up the Firestar II cage/motor
mount for the 582, it looks like you didn't have to do any welding to
the existing cage parts. It looks like after the new parts were fabricated,
that they just bolted on. Is that assumption correct? You mentioned 1200 fpm climb
- at what base elevation is this plane being flown from? You also said the
plane was heavy - what is the empty weight? How much additional weight do you
think the structural mods contributed? What prop is on this 582 (brand, # blades,
diameter, tip clearance to boom tube, gear box ratio)? Have there been
any cooling issues with the radiator placement?
Howard Shackleford,
Didn't you do one one of these conversions also? I don't recall seeing any
close-up photos of the structural mods you made. Did I just miss them in photoshare?
Do you have pics on a websight of your own? I guess I'm directing the
same questions above to you about the plane you modified.
All,
I've heard figures of 3.5% to 4% loss of horsepower with every 1000 feet of
altitude. Does that sound right to everyone for two strokes? I live and fly
at 5200' elevation (and my plane's empty weight is 385 lbs). That would mean a
52 hp Rotax 503 DCDI would have between 42.5 and 41.2 hp at 5200'. A 65 hp 582
would have between 53.2 and 51.5 hp. So basically it takes a 582 to put out
the horsepower the Firestar II is designed around, at 5200'. And a 582 weighs
pretty close to a 503.
I trained in Tucson at 2000' with the Firestar, and the climb performance was
what I'd call "exciting" and in the "hot rod" category and no thought of more
horsepower entered my mind. Here at home, at 5200', the climb is what I'd call
"adequate", but in the future I will probably be looking for a horsepower
upgrade. Of course, the thin air up here affects performance in more ways than
just engine horsepower, but I sure liked the climb in Tucson. I've been using
a 66" two blade Ivo, and I just inherited a 66" three blade GSC wood prop. It
needs some minor epoxy work, and then we'll see what that does. My gear box is
2.58 "B".
M. Domenic Perez, FS II
Vaughn, NM
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Emailing: P3060010, P3060013 |
Seal-Send-Time: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:03:58 -0500
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd@msn.com>
I think I sent these to you last week but am concerned because they went out as
three separate e-mails. I have since learned to transmit photos with the message
and hope these make it to the list.
1/ Kolb list
2/ Duane Mitchell
3/ mitchmnd@msn.com
4/ Duane's Mk3/912
5/ Duane Mitchell's Mark3/912, BRS 1200, EIS, 27 Hrs.
6/ Builder with his completed Mark-3, 2 views
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 582 Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com
In a message dated 3/18/2005 3:28:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
perezmdomenic@plateautel.net writes:
Howard Shackleford,
Didn't you do one one of these conversions also? I don't recall seeing
any close-up photos of the structural mods you made. Did I just miss them in
photoshare? Do you have pics on a websight of your own? I guess I'm directing
the same questions above to you about the plane you modified.
We did no modifications to the airframe on our 503/582 conversion; we just
took the 503 off & put the 582 on.
The owner of the plane weighs close to 300 lbs. & needs the extra power [our
elevation is only 610']. He is careful to use only the power necessary with
no fast throttle changes.. We carefully inspect for any cracking of the engine
mount area. So far, none after about 25 hrs.
If I were you, at 5200 ft., I wouldn't bother with any mods for the changeout
since there is no difference in hp between you at 5200 & a 503 at sea level,
although they don't appear that tough. Looks real easy to put the rear one
on; we will probably do that later.
By the way, our 582 has a "C" box 3:1 ratio with clutch, startups are extra
smooth & she will land at a nice steep angle with the prop windmilling. The
prop is a 3 blade Warp, 66" dia. If I had a few extra hundred bucks, I'd put a
clutch in my "C" box.
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 582 Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
At 01:27 PM 3/18/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Domenic Perez"
><perezmdomenic@plateautel.net>
>
>Richard Pike,
> Looking over the photos of the structural mods beefing up the
> Firestar II cage/motor mount for the 582, it looks like you didn't have
> to do any welding to the existing cage parts. It looks like after the new
> parts were fabricated, that they just bolted on. Is that assumption correct?
Correct, there are three pieces, a sort of "H" section for the rear of the
cage, and then a strut with a flat bracket for either side attaches to the
front side of the mounts.
>You mentioned 1200 fpm climb - at what base elevation is this plane being
>flown from?
1500' MSL
>You also said the plane was heavy - what is the empty weight?
488 pounds
>How much additional weight do you think the structural mods contributed?
The mods for the 582 - maybe three pounds. Some of the extra weight is a
Lexan floor. The owner was concerned about going down in the trees and
wanted to insure nothing could come through the floor and spear him. Also
the full electrical. I must admit, the advertised empty weight of 325
pounds on the Kolb web page leaves me a little puzzled. There is no way we
have 163 pounds of extras on this airplane. Oh, well...
>What prop is on this 582 (brand, # blades, diameter, tip clearance to boom
>tube, gear box ratio)?
Ivo, 68" two blade, and since this engine has an "E" box (2.62:1) with the
electric starter on the bottom, the engine had to be moved back two inches
so the starter would not foul the upper fuselage frame, and also it was
necessary to turn the rubber motor mounts upside down (the long side points
up) to get everything to fit. There is about 1.3 inches between the prop
tip and the boom tube.
>Have there been any cooling issues with the radiator placement?
The radiator is undersized, it is off a motorcycle and is very thin,
however, since it is immediately in front of the prop, it cools
well. Since we have some Lexan panels blending the airflow around the
upper rear of the cabin, the air seems to flow into the radiator real well.
Summer may bring a different story, however. Odd side issue - there is an
odd sort of growling sound that is some sort of air flow thing, and I
suspect it is the prop being so close to the radiator. Will be moving the
radiator a couple inches forward to see if it goes away.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Message 14
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| Subject: | Monument Valley 2005 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot@comcast.net>
Here is what folks have sent to me: People Airplane
John Williamson kolbrapilot@comcast.net 1 Yes
John Hauck jhauck@elmore.rr.com 1 Yes
Larry Bourne biglar@gogittum.com 1
George E. Thompson eagle1@commspeed.net 1
Jim Hefner hefner_jim@msn.com 1 Yes
Dave & Eve Pelletier pelletier@cableone.net 2 Yes
Gary Haley ghaley@wt.net 1 Yes
Tim Gherkins rp3420@freescale.com 1 Yes
Craig Nelson vitalfx0@msn.com 1 Yes
Rick & Martha Neilsen NeilsenRM@comcast.net 2
Robert Mason masonclan@sbcglobal.net 1 Yes
Bob Dalton wiserguy@comcast.net 1
Larry & Karen Cottrell lcottrel@kfalls.net 2 Yes
Boyd & Karen Young by0ung@brigham.net 1
Erich Weaver & family Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com 3 Yes
John Jung jrjungjr@yahoo.com 1 Yes
Don & Kathleen Martin kolbdriver@hotmail.com 2
Jim & John Clayton james.clayton@bluecoat.com 2
Roger Lee ssadiver1@yahoo.com 1 Yes
Wayne Boyter boyter@mcsi.net 1
Here is the link to Goulding Lodge and Campground at Monument Valley:
http://www.gouldings.com/english/index.htm
or call (435) 727-3231.
If your name and finfor isn't on the list, please send it to me. If your
info is incorrect, please let me know.
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolb Kolbra,
http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot
do not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: 582 Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Pike" <richard@bcchapel.org>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 582 Firestar II
>
>>You also said the plane was heavy - what is the empty weight?
>
> 488 pounds
Wowsa! thats a little more than my Mk-3 weighs, and there are a few places I
can take some more weight out if I ever get motivated.
Of course, I wish I had aluminum or Lexan seat pans under my seats also.
Someday.
Denny Rowe
do not archive
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Emailing: P3060010, P3060013 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Duane/Gang:
Why not use Kolb List Photo Share?
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: 582 Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Earl & Mim Zimmerman <emzi@supernet.com>
> All,
> I've heard figures of 3.5% to 4% loss of horsepower with every 1000 feet
of altitude. Does that sound right to everyone for two strokes? I live and fly
at 5200' elevation (and my plane's empty weight is 385 lbs). That would mean
a 52 hp Rotax 503 DCDI would have between 42.5 and 41.2 hp at 5200'. A 65 hp
582 would have between 53.2 and 51.5 hp. So basically it takes a 582 to put out
the horsepower the Firestar II is designed around, at 5200'. And a 582 weighs
pretty close to a 503.
> I trained in Tucson at 2000' with the Firestar, and the climb performance
was what I'd call "exciting" and in the "hot rod" category and no thought of
more horsepower entered my mind. Here at home, at 5200', the climb is what I'd
call "adequate", but in the future I will probably be looking for a horsepower
upgrade. Of course, the thin air up here affects performance in more ways than
just engine horsepower, but I sure liked the climb in Tucson. I've been using
a 66" two blade Ivo, and I just inherited a 66" three blade GSC wood prop.
It needs some minor epoxy work, and then we'll see what that does. My gear box
is 2.58 "B".
>
Domenic,
From our experience I don't think that you will find any more all out
performance than with the 66" Ivo that you have with a 503/2.58 B
gearbox. ~ Earl
--
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Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Test message / FS II inquiry |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrel@kfalls.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Pike" <richard@bcchapel.org>
Subject: Kolb-List: Test message / FS II inquiry
.
>
> Trying again - Flying the Firestar II feels very different from the MKIII.
> Is this typical? Should a correctly trimmed FS II feel similar to a MKIII
> or vice versa?
Hi,
I bought a used Mark III and flew it for one summer letting my Firestar
languish in its trailer. I kept meaning to sell it, but couldn't seem to
actually advertise it. After flying the Mark for about 30 hours I pulled out
the firestar to show it to a guy that thought he was interested. The
difference blew me away. The Firestar is much more agile and flies much
better. I ended up selling the Mark III and keeping the Firestar. To sum it
up, the Mark flew a lot more like a "real airplane", and apparently that
was not what I enjoyed the most. I compare it with the difference that you
would notice in driving a Station Wagon and a sports car. I had a 582 engine
on the Mark III. If the engine had been a 912, I would have kept it. My FS
has a 447, my altitude is 4100 feet. I thought my FS was heavy at 350 lbs.
If I load it up to max then it flies like the Mark III did.
Hope this helps Richard.
Larry, Oregon
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
At 12:52 PM 3/18/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
<snip>
> Are you planning to try and make the flyin
>at Homer's, John W and Richard P? <snip>
Don't know yet. Would like to.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
>john h
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot@comcast.net>
<snip>
> Are you planning to try and make the flyin
>at Homer's, John W and Richard P? <snip>
I have commitments out in Washington State that weekend but sure would like
to make it.
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolb Kolbra,
http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot
do not archive
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