---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 03/18/05: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:03 AM - Test message (Jimmy) 2. 08:28 AM - Test message / FS II inquiry (Richard Pike) 3. 08:29 AM - Re: Test message (John Hauck) 4. 08:54 AM - Re: Trip to Hauck's Holler (HShack@aol.com) 5. 09:07 AM - FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison (John Hauck) 6. 09:14 AM - Re: Trip to Hauck's Holler (John Hauck) 7. 09:41 AM - Re: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison (John Williamson) 8. 10:27 AM - Re: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison (Richard Pike) 9. 10:51 AM - Re: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison (John Hauck) 10. 12:28 PM - 582 Firestar II (Domenic Perez) 11. 01:07 PM - Emailing: P3060010, P3060013 (H MITCHELL) 12. 01:56 PM - Re: 582 Firestar II (HShack@aol.com) 13. 02:41 PM - Re: 582 Firestar II (Richard Pike) 14. 02:56 PM - Monument Valley 2005 (John Williamson) 15. 03:30 PM - Re: 582 Firestar II (Denny Rowe) 16. 03:44 PM - Re: Emailing: P3060010, P3060013 (John Hauck) 17. 04:16 PM - Re: 582 Firestar II (Earl & Mim Zimmerman) 18. 07:55 PM - Re: Test message / FS II inquiry (Larry Cottrell) 19. 08:13 PM - Re: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison (Richard Pike) 20. 09:23 PM - Re: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison (John Williamson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:31 AM PST US From: "Jimmy" Subject: Kolb-List: Test message --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jimmy" Is the list working?? No messages today here JH Do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:40 AM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Kolb-List: Test message / FS II inquiry --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike I noticed that, I never got a response to a question I asked the other day either. Trying again - Flying the Firestar II feels very different from the MKIII. Is this typical? Should a correctly trimmed FS II feel similar to a MKIII or vice versa? Thanks Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) FS II N582EF http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/kolb.htm At 11:01 AM 3/18/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jimmy" > >Is the list working?? >No messages today here >JH >Do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:03 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Test message --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" | No messages today here | JH Hi Jim/Gang: Got you loud and clear at hauck's holler. You are the first to post today. Congratulations!!! ;-) Thought it was going to be a good day to fly today, but have my doubts. I need to fly over to my buddy's place across the lake and use his hose to Gunk my engine. I may have a little oil leak up front and bottom of the crankcase, or I may have spilled some oil during last oil change. I didn't have time to Gunk it then, so maybe when I do it will turn out to be a spill and not a leak. Got my fingers crossed. Little over 3 weeks until time to pack up and take off for Sun and Fun. I am ready to go now. Tired of wind and winter weather. Looking forward to seeing my old friends and making some new ones at Lakeland. Take care, john h DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:37 AM PST US From: HShack@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trip to Hauck's Holler --> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com In a message dated 3/18/2005 11:29:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, jhauck@elmore.rr.com writes: Got you loud and clear at hauck's holler. John H., what's the closest town to Hauck's Holler? Several of us were on a trip a few days ago looks like pretty good trip from western SC.........Trying to figure distance. Howard Shackleford FS II Trenton [6J6] SC ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:07:22 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" MKIII. | Is this typical? Should a correctly trimmed FS II feel similar to a MKIII | or vice versa? | Thanks | Richard Pike Morning Richard/Gang: Just came in from outside and my fingers are stiff and cold. hehehe I didn't respond to your question when you asked the first time to give others a chance to give their view on comparing flying the FSII and the MKIII. All of Homer's airplane models fly the same, feel very similar, taking into consideration the differences in weight, physical size, and power plants installed. Luckily, I got several hours in the factory FSII at the last Kolb Homecoming, Sep 04. I flew the Sport 600, then the MKIIIXtra, and finally got into the FSII. Ahhhhh! The little FSII felt right at home, like my old MKIII. I did not particularly like the way the Xtra felt, but I have a lot of hours in my MKIII. To me, airplanes are like an old pair of boots. Once you get used to them and get them broken in good, they always feel better than something different. Also, the Xtra was not one of Homer's designs, nor was the Kolbra. But........I flew Mark Seller's Kolbra and felt right at home in it. As much time as you have in your MKIII, I would think the FSII will probably feel different. I don't know what other airplanes you have been flying, or if you have previous time in a FS. Also, you have made considerable modifications to your MKIII. Maybe that is the difference. In conclusion, to me, they should both feel good, comfortable to the pilot when flying them. I doubt if that will help, but the best I can due right now. ;-) john h ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:33 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trip to Hauck's Holler --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" were on a | trip a few days ago looks like | pretty good trip from western SC.........Trying to figure distance. | | Howard Shackleford Shack/Gang: 252 deg at 237.8 nm (273.656 sm) to Wetumpka Airport 08A. Not a bad flight. I can give you coordinates to my airstrip which is 11.2 sm 020 deg from 08A. You all are welcome any time. Just call first and make sure I am going to be home. My feet are getting itchy and I feel the need to fly/travel. ;-) Take care, john h 334-567-6280 H 334-315-2621 C DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:02 AM PST US From: "John Williamson" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" Richard, John H, The Kolbra you flew at the last TNK Homecoming belongs to Mark German from Chisago City, MN. I have a little time in a 503 powered FSII and the control feel was very similar to the Kolbra. The Kolbra weighs twice as much as the FSII so the controls were proportionately heavier. It was a fun airplane to fly. John Williamson Arlington, TX Kolb Kolbra, http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:27:48 AM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike That helps a lot, because since I sent out my inquiry earlier today, I got a call from a flying buddy, you have probably met him or at least seen him, he is the one that has flown the Aircam to the Kolb homecoming several times (Says it is one of his favorite flights, he thinks Kolbers are the friendliest people around) Anyway, I mentioned it to him, and he said he thinks it is because this particular FS II has dihedral and most don't , that we have traded agility for stability. I suspect he is right, because the biggest difference is that my MKIII feels much more agile, and I would have expected the FS II to feel more agile. So now we have a FS II that flies hands off due to the dihedral, flies good, easy and comfortable to fly, but just not as agile as I expected. I was thinking about putting a bit of dihedral in my MKIII, but not now. I prefer agility to stability. We have a spare set of struts for the FS II that eliminates the dihedral, might just stick them on and see what that does. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) do not archive At 11:08 AM 3/18/2005 -0600, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > > | Trying again - Flying the Firestar II feels very different from the >MKIII. >| Is this typical? Should a correctly trimmed FS II feel similar to a >MKIII >| or vice versa? >| Thanks >| Richard Pike > > >Morning Richard/Gang: > >Just came in from outside and my fingers are stiff and cold. hehehe > >I didn't respond to your question when you asked the first time to >give others a chance to give their view on comparing flying the FSII >and the MKIII. > >All of Homer's airplane models fly the same, feel very similar, taking >into consideration the differences in weight, physical size, and power >plants installed. > >Luckily, I got several hours in the factory FSII at the last Kolb >Homecoming, Sep 04. I flew the Sport 600, then the MKIIIXtra, and >finally got into the FSII. Ahhhhh! The little FSII felt right at >home, like my old MKIII. I did not particularly like the way the Xtra >felt, but I have a lot of hours in my MKIII. To me, airplanes are >like an old pair of boots. Once you get used to them and get them >broken in good, they always feel better than something different. >Also, the Xtra was not one of Homer's designs, nor was the Kolbra. >But........I flew Mark Seller's Kolbra and felt right at home in it. > >As much time as you have in your MKIII, I would think the FSII will >probably feel different. I don't know what other airplanes you have >been flying, or if you have previous time in a FS. Also, you have >made considerable modifications to your MKIII. Maybe that is the >difference. > >In conclusion, to me, they should both feel good, comfortable to the >pilot when flying them. > >I doubt if that will help, but the best I can due right now. ;-) > >john h > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:31 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" German from | Chisago City, MN. Thanks for the correction John W. I knew I was wrong, but could not think of Mark's last name. Mark Sellers is the MKIII owner/flyer that graduated to a "real" airplane recently. Good man. He is a wealth of info on aviation law. Gonna get up that way to see him one of these days. Maybe he will make it to Homer's flyin in June. Are you planning to try and make the flyin at Homer's, John W and Richard P? Forgot about the dihedral you all had put into the FSII. I remember seeing it first glance at the photo you posted. Homer said the only reason he designed any dihedral into the Kolb aircraft wings was for aesthetic reasons only. On the ground, with no dihedral, the wings look like they are drooping. I'll give up a little stability for agility anytime in my Kolbs. john h ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:28:27 PM PST US From: "Domenic Perez" Subject: Kolb-List: 582 Firestar II --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Domenic Perez" Richard Pike, Looking over the photos of the structural mods beefing up the Firestar II cage/motor mount for the 582, it looks like you didn't have to do any welding to the existing cage parts. It looks like after the new parts were fabricated, that they just bolted on. Is that assumption correct? You mentioned 1200 fpm climb - at what base elevation is this plane being flown from? You also said the plane was heavy - what is the empty weight? How much additional weight do you think the structural mods contributed? What prop is on this 582 (brand, # blades, diameter, tip clearance to boom tube, gear box ratio)? Have there been any cooling issues with the radiator placement? Howard Shackleford, Didn't you do one one of these conversions also? I don't recall seeing any close-up photos of the structural mods you made. Did I just miss them in photoshare? Do you have pics on a websight of your own? I guess I'm directing the same questions above to you about the plane you modified. All, I've heard figures of 3.5% to 4% loss of horsepower with every 1000 feet of altitude. Does that sound right to everyone for two strokes? I live and fly at 5200' elevation (and my plane's empty weight is 385 lbs). That would mean a 52 hp Rotax 503 DCDI would have between 42.5 and 41.2 hp at 5200'. A 65 hp 582 would have between 53.2 and 51.5 hp. So basically it takes a 582 to put out the horsepower the Firestar II is designed around, at 5200'. And a 582 weighs pretty close to a 503. I trained in Tucson at 2000' with the Firestar, and the climb performance was what I'd call "exciting" and in the "hot rod" category and no thought of more horsepower entered my mind. Here at home, at 5200', the climb is what I'd call "adequate", but in the future I will probably be looking for a horsepower upgrade. Of course, the thin air up here affects performance in more ways than just engine horsepower, but I sure liked the climb in Tucson. I've been using a 66" two blade Ivo, and I just inherited a 66" three blade GSC wood prop. It needs some minor epoxy work, and then we'll see what that does. My gear box is 2.58 "B". M. Domenic Perez, FS II Vaughn, NM Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:27 PM PST US From: "H MITCHELL" Subject: Kolb-List: Emailing: P3060010, P3060013 Seal-Send-Time: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:03:58 -0500 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "H MITCHELL" I think I sent these to you last week but am concerned because they went out as three separate e-mails. I have since learned to transmit photos with the message and hope these make it to the list. 1/ Kolb list 2/ Duane Mitchell 3/ mitchmnd@msn.com 4/ Duane's Mk3/912 5/ Duane Mitchell's Mark3/912, BRS 1200, EIS, 27 Hrs. 6/ Builder with his completed Mark-3, 2 views ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:46 PM PST US From: HShack@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 582 Firestar II --> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com In a message dated 3/18/2005 3:28:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, perezmdomenic@plateautel.net writes: Howard Shackleford, Didn't you do one one of these conversions also? I don't recall seeing any close-up photos of the structural mods you made. Did I just miss them in photoshare? Do you have pics on a websight of your own? I guess I'm directing the same questions above to you about the plane you modified. We did no modifications to the airframe on our 503/582 conversion; we just took the 503 off & put the 582 on. The owner of the plane weighs close to 300 lbs. & needs the extra power [our elevation is only 610']. He is careful to use only the power necessary with no fast throttle changes.. We carefully inspect for any cracking of the engine mount area. So far, none after about 25 hrs. If I were you, at 5200 ft., I wouldn't bother with any mods for the changeout since there is no difference in hp between you at 5200 & a 503 at sea level, although they don't appear that tough. Looks real easy to put the rear one on; we will probably do that later. By the way, our 582 has a "C" box 3:1 ratio with clutch, startups are extra smooth & she will land at a nice steep angle with the prop windmilling. The prop is a 3 blade Warp, 66" dia. If I had a few extra hundred bucks, I'd put a clutch in my "C" box. Howard Shackleford FS II SC ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:41:03 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 582 Firestar II --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike At 01:27 PM 3/18/2005 -0700, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Domenic Perez" > > >Richard Pike, > Looking over the photos of the structural mods beefing up the > Firestar II cage/motor mount for the 582, it looks like you didn't have > to do any welding to the existing cage parts. It looks like after the new > parts were fabricated, that they just bolted on. Is that assumption correct? Correct, there are three pieces, a sort of "H" section for the rear of the cage, and then a strut with a flat bracket for either side attaches to the front side of the mounts. >You mentioned 1200 fpm climb - at what base elevation is this plane being >flown from? 1500' MSL >You also said the plane was heavy - what is the empty weight? 488 pounds >How much additional weight do you think the structural mods contributed? The mods for the 582 - maybe three pounds. Some of the extra weight is a Lexan floor. The owner was concerned about going down in the trees and wanted to insure nothing could come through the floor and spear him. Also the full electrical. I must admit, the advertised empty weight of 325 pounds on the Kolb web page leaves me a little puzzled. There is no way we have 163 pounds of extras on this airplane. Oh, well... >What prop is on this 582 (brand, # blades, diameter, tip clearance to boom >tube, gear box ratio)? Ivo, 68" two blade, and since this engine has an "E" box (2.62:1) with the electric starter on the bottom, the engine had to be moved back two inches so the starter would not foul the upper fuselage frame, and also it was necessary to turn the rubber motor mounts upside down (the long side points up) to get everything to fit. There is about 1.3 inches between the prop tip and the boom tube. >Have there been any cooling issues with the radiator placement? The radiator is undersized, it is off a motorcycle and is very thin, however, since it is immediately in front of the prop, it cools well. Since we have some Lexan panels blending the airflow around the upper rear of the cabin, the air seems to flow into the radiator real well. Summer may bring a different story, however. Odd side issue - there is an odd sort of growling sound that is some sort of air flow thing, and I suspect it is the prop being so close to the radiator. Will be moving the radiator a couple inches forward to see if it goes away. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:56:35 PM PST US From: "John Williamson" Subject: Kolb-List: Monument Valley 2005 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" Here is what folks have sent to me: People Airplane John Williamson kolbrapilot@comcast.net 1 Yes John Hauck jhauck@elmore.rr.com 1 Yes Larry Bourne biglar@gogittum.com 1 George E. Thompson eagle1@commspeed.net 1 Jim Hefner hefner_jim@msn.com 1 Yes Dave & Eve Pelletier pelletier@cableone.net 2 Yes Gary Haley ghaley@wt.net 1 Yes Tim Gherkins rp3420@freescale.com 1 Yes Craig Nelson vitalfx0@msn.com 1 Yes Rick & Martha Neilsen NeilsenRM@comcast.net 2 Robert Mason masonclan@sbcglobal.net 1 Yes Bob Dalton wiserguy@comcast.net 1 Larry & Karen Cottrell lcottrel@kfalls.net 2 Yes Boyd & Karen Young by0ung@brigham.net 1 Erich Weaver & family Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com 3 Yes John Jung jrjungjr@yahoo.com 1 Yes Don & Kathleen Martin kolbdriver@hotmail.com 2 Jim & John Clayton james.clayton@bluecoat.com 2 Roger Lee ssadiver1@yahoo.com 1 Yes Wayne Boyter boyter@mcsi.net 1 Here is the link to Goulding Lodge and Campground at Monument Valley: http://www.gouldings.com/english/index.htm or call (435) 727-3231. If your name and finfor isn't on the list, please send it to me. If your info is incorrect, please let me know. John Williamson Arlington, TX Kolb Kolbra, http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:46 PM PST US From: "Denny Rowe" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 582 Firestar II --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Pike" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 582 Firestar II > >>You also said the plane was heavy - what is the empty weight? > > 488 pounds Wowsa! thats a little more than my Mk-3 weighs, and there are a few places I can take some more weight out if I ever get motivated. Of course, I wish I had aluminum or Lexan seat pans under my seats also. Someday. Denny Rowe do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:44:04 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Emailing: P3060010, P3060013 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Duane/Gang: Why not use Kolb List Photo Share? http://www.matronics.com/photoshare john h DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:16:59 PM PST US From: Earl & Mim Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 582 Firestar II --> Kolb-List message posted by: Earl & Mim Zimmerman > All, > I've heard figures of 3.5% to 4% loss of horsepower with every 1000 feet of altitude. Does that sound right to everyone for two strokes? I live and fly at 5200' elevation (and my plane's empty weight is 385 lbs). That would mean a 52 hp Rotax 503 DCDI would have between 42.5 and 41.2 hp at 5200'. A 65 hp 582 would have between 53.2 and 51.5 hp. So basically it takes a 582 to put out the horsepower the Firestar II is designed around, at 5200'. And a 582 weighs pretty close to a 503. > I trained in Tucson at 2000' with the Firestar, and the climb performance was what I'd call "exciting" and in the "hot rod" category and no thought of more horsepower entered my mind. Here at home, at 5200', the climb is what I'd call "adequate", but in the future I will probably be looking for a horsepower upgrade. Of course, the thin air up here affects performance in more ways than just engine horsepower, but I sure liked the climb in Tucson. I've been using a 66" two blade Ivo, and I just inherited a 66" three blade GSC wood prop. It needs some minor epoxy work, and then we'll see what that does. My gear box is 2.58 "B". > Domenic, From our experience I don't think that you will find any more all out performance than with the 66" Ivo that you have with a 503/2.58 B gearbox. ~ Earl -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:26 PM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Test message / FS II inquiry --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Pike" Subject: Kolb-List: Test message / FS II inquiry . > > Trying again - Flying the Firestar II feels very different from the MKIII. > Is this typical? Should a correctly trimmed FS II feel similar to a MKIII > or vice versa? Hi, I bought a used Mark III and flew it for one summer letting my Firestar languish in its trailer. I kept meaning to sell it, but couldn't seem to actually advertise it. After flying the Mark for about 30 hours I pulled out the firestar to show it to a guy that thought he was interested. The difference blew me away. The Firestar is much more agile and flies much better. I ended up selling the Mark III and keeping the Firestar. To sum it up, the Mark flew a lot more like a "real airplane", and apparently that was not what I enjoyed the most. I compare it with the difference that you would notice in driving a Station Wagon and a sports car. I had a 582 engine on the Mark III. If the engine had been a 912, I would have kept it. My FS has a 447, my altitude is 4100 feet. I thought my FS was heavy at 350 lbs. If I load it up to max then it flies like the Mark III did. Hope this helps Richard. Larry, Oregon ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:18 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike At 12:52 PM 3/18/2005 -0600, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > Are you planning to try and make the flyin >at Homer's, John W and Richard P? Don't know yet. Would like to. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) do not archive >john h > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:23 PM PST US From: "John Williamson" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" > Are you planning to try and make the flyin >at Homer's, John W and Richard P? I have commitments out in Washington State that weekend but sure would like to make it. John Williamson Arlington, TX Kolb Kolbra, http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot do not archive