Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:56 AM - Re: elt requirements (Airgriff2@aol.com)
2. 07:13 AM - Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions (Jim Gerken)
3. 08:30 AM - Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions (N27SB@aol.com)
4. 08:40 AM - Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions (John Hauck)
5. 09:21 AM - Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions (N27SB@aol.com)
6. 09:22 AM - Re: just enough knowledge to scare you (Billie Futrell)
7. 09:31 AM - Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions (PATRICK LADD)
8. 01:20 PM - Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions (HShack@aol.com)
9. 01:31 PM - Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions (HShack@aol.com)
10. 04:03 PM - Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
11. 04:06 PM - Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions (N27SB@aol.com)
12. 04:13 PM - Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions (N27SB@aol.com)
13. 05:20 PM - Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions (bryan green)
14. 06:02 PM - Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions (Richard Pike)
15. 06:21 PM - Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions (Larry Bourne)
16. 06:42 PM - Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions (John Hauck)
17. 07:53 PM - Re: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison (Don Martin)
18. 08:26 PM - Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions (Jim Baker)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: elt requirements |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Airgriff2@aol.com
http://www.avweb.com/news/avionics/183228-1.html
Here is the site for info on ELT's and the new requirements.
Fly Safe
Bob Griffin
Message 2
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| Subject: | Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions |
Jason Omelchuck" <jason@acuityinc.com>
03/22/2005 09:13:08 AM
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jim Gerken <gerken@us.ibm.com>
Guys, I am wondering about the clutch that is made for the Rotax "C"
gearbox, and it's possible application to the BMW R100 with "C" box.
Is there only one model clutch available, the one I see advertised as the
RK400 or something like that?
Any bad experiences with this clutch? (Hans, I remember your other clutch
disintigrated in flight, but that was not the Rotax part, correct?)
For those of you willing to think about it for a munute: Imagine the
out-of-concentricity-allowance the rubber hardy disk allows, then imagine
replacing the rubber with this clutch assembly. Now with the two shafts
(engine output and geabox input) more rigidly coupled, except for the
movement inside the clutch itself, how much shaft-to-shaft misalignment
would the clutch allow? Or am I missing something? I ask this because
even though I used all possible care in machining the driveline components
that adapt the "C" box to my BMW block, there is no way to measure the
alignment of these two shafts. I can only assume they are very very close,
and the rubber disk is in there today for any small takeup radially. I am
very quickly talking myself out of this idea.
Thanks!
Jim G
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: N27SB@aol.com
In a message dated 3/22/05 9:14:38 AM Central Standard Time,
gerken@us.ibm.com writes:
> Guys, I am wondering about the clutch that is made for the Rotax "C"
> gearbox, and it's possible application to the BMW R100 with "C" box.
> Is there only one model clutch available, the one I see advertised as the
> RK400 or something like that?
> Any bad experiences with this clutch? (Hans, I remember your other clutch
> disintigrated in flight, but that was not the Rotax part, correct?)
>
Hi Jim,
The clutch is made by www.air-techinc.com . You can buy it from them direct
and you can call them and ask for Beaver for tech info. I am going to try one
on the Firefly Floatplane. We need a way to get rid of the thrust at idle. A
friend of mine in Key West has used one on his 582 Quicksilver Two place for
years and says he would not do without it.
Steve b
Firefly 007
do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Good Morning Jim G/Gang:
I am not going to get involved in the engineering concept of mating
clutches to engines.
However, I would like to know what the advantages as well as the
disadvantages of the clutch are when used in our applications with
Kolb aircraft.
I do not have a clutch, nor have I flown an aircraft with a clutch
installed. The only info I have is what I read and specifically a
first hand report from a close friend who is just now recovering from
a broken back. Major contributing factor to the accident was the
clutch installed on a 582. During a test flight over his private
grass strip at 1,000 feet, an approaching thunderstorm convinced him
to lose altitude quickly and land. At this time "Murphy" decided to
hook up with him and compounded his problems. During a steep
spiraling decent, with throttle closed at slow idle, the clutch
disconnected, and the 582 quit running. The battery was in need of a
charge, which was not done prior to this test flight, so the engine
could not be restarted. On the edge of the thunderstorm, the
anticipated wind direction changed and wind increased. The wind
milling effect of the prop created a huge air brake, effectively
killing glide speed. With only a small back yard to shoot for, as his
last and only option, he came up short and crashed.
From the above I can see two disadvantages of the clutch:
1. Engine quitting at idle after clutch disengages (primarily two
strokes).
2. Loss of glide speed and distance.
Advantages of the clutch are:
1. Easier starting.
2. Better idling on the ground.
What am I missing here? Those of you that fly with clutches, or have
personal experience with clutches, please add your comments on the
pros and cons of clutches.
My own personal opinion is not fly with a clutch. To overcome gear
box chatter and poor slow speed idle, idle the engine, two strokes,
above 2,000 rpm and get a good set of brakes.
When practicing emergency landings for engine failures, one will
quickly understand the difference in glide between an engine idling
and a dead stick. A dead stick glides much better than an idling
engine. What happens with the clutch equipped engine? Does the prop
speed increase as airspeed increases when gliding with a dead engine?
Seems to me, in this situation, we have turned our windmilling props
into rotary wings producing a lot of aft lift (drag).
john h
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: N27SB@aol.com
In a message dated 3/22/05 10:41:31 AM Central Standard Time,
jhauck@elmore.rr.com writes:
> What happens with the clutch equipped engine? Does the prop
> speed increase as airspeed increases when gliding with a dead engine?
> Seems to me, in this situation, we have turned our windmilling props
> into rotary wings producing a lot of aft lift (drag).
>
John/All
Just got off the phone with Air Tech, Your predictions are correct, the
windmilling prop will produce more drag than a stopped blade or a spinning blade
at
Idle. Hope this does not bring that old thread about drag related to
airspeed. My friend with the quicksilver says he cant't tell much difference but
I
can tell you from flying his plane that clutch or no clutch or engine idle or
off the quicksilver two place comes down real quick. I don't think I would
consider a clutch on a land plane but in a floatplane that you stay mostly over
water it has advantages. Air Tech does not think that the clutch promotes an
engine to quit at idle but I can see that it could ,however, spinning a 2 stroke
in a fast decent with power pulled sure runs lean.
Steve
do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: just enough knowledge to scare you |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: " Billie Futrell" <bill_joe@bellsouth.net>
Mike,
I have mine mounted under the passenger seat mounted to the floor.
Bill Futrell MK111xtra
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Pierzina" <planecrazzzy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: just enough knowledge to scare you
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Mike Pierzina <planecrazzzy@yahoo.com>
>
> Hey Guys,
> I guess I'll write to some EAA guys and find out if they
know something about the ELT's.....don't wanna just throw money away....
>
> I would think the ELT would come with mounting
suggestions...From what I'm understanding from you guys on the list is, the
"nose" is NOT the place for it....I've got room under my front seat ???
>
> If anybody finds info about them becoming obsolete, let me know where
to read up on it...
>
> I don't "Have to have it" until my 40 hrs are flown off.....So their isn't
a rush....
>
> Thanks Guys!
> Gotta Fly...
> Mike in
MN (snows melting fast now)
>
>
> SNIP<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com
>
> I have vague memories of reading something awhile back about future
changes
> in the kind or type of signal from ELTs that would be monitored. Cant
> recall the details, but I believe that if the changes were to go into
> effect, that some of the more inexpensive ELTs would essentially be
> obsolete. Dont recall exactly what the proposed changes were, nor the
> schedule for implementation, and have no idea if this impacts the 450
> Ameri-King/ELT. Perhaps someone has a little more info on this than me?
>
>
> regards
> Erich Weaver
>
>
> My Web Site:
> http://www.geocities.com/planecrazzzy/Planecrazzzy.html
>
>
> Sometimes you just have to take the leap and build your wings on the way
down...
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
friend of mine in Key West has used one on his 582 Quicksilver Two place for
years >>
Hi Steve,
I shall be going out towards Key West after Sun `n Fun. What do you rate my
chances of bumming a ride?
Does a 200lb passenger put a crimp in the performance of a Quicksilver?.
I have flown in the Stearman they have at Key West and would love to do it
in an ultralight.
Cheers
Pat
--
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com
Get the clutch & install it, and, if it doesn't work, sell it to me for half
price.
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com
In a message dated 3/22/2005 1:13:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, N27SB@aol.com
writes:
Just got off the phone with Air Tech, Your predictions are correct, the
windmilling prop will produce more drag than a stopped blade or a spinning
blade at idle.
In addition to the very smooth starts [yes, my idle is already set to 2300 &
there's still a lot of engine shake on startup], I will install one BECAUSE
of the increased drag when the prop dis-engages; looks to be better than flaps
for short-field landings. Just takes some getting used to.
If you need to glide long distances, don't install it.
Almost a necessity on a float plane.
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
I'm not going to do it again but when my reduction drive broke on my VW
powered MKIIIc I had what amounts to a declutched wind milling prop. I
couldn't really detect any increased drag but I was a bit distracted. I
would think there would also be just a bit of thrust just as I was touching
down.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
----- Original Message -----
From: <HShack@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 3/22/2005 1:13:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> N27SB@aol.com
> writes:
> Just got off the phone with Air Tech, Your predictions are correct, the
> windmilling prop will produce more drag than a stopped blade or a spinning
> blade at idle.
>
>
> In addition to the very smooth starts [yes, my idle is already set to 2300
> &
> there's still a lot of engine shake on startup], I will install one
> BECAUSE
> of the increased drag when the prop dis-engages; looks to be better than
> flaps
> for short-field landings. Just takes some getting used to.
>
> If you need to glide long distances, don't install it.
>
> Almost a necessity on a float plane.
>
>
> Howard Shackleford
> FS II
> SC
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: N27SB@aol.com
In a message dated 3/22/2005 4:32:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, HShack@aol.com
writes:
>
> In addition to the very smooth starts [yes, my idle is already set to 2300 &
> there's still a lot of engine shake on startup], I will install one BECAUSE
>
> of the increased drag when the prop dis-engages; looks to be better than
> flaps
> for short-field landings. Just takes some getting used to.
>
> If you need to glide long distances, don't install it.
>
> Almost a necessity on a float plane.
>
>
> Howard Shackleford
> FS II
> SC
>
>
Hi Howard, Talked again to my friend in Key Wst. In regard to the question of
does the clutch help the chances of an engine quitting at Idle, He remarked,
Never had one quit at Idle. He flies almost every day several hours. I will
have some first hand experience in a couple of months.
Steve
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: N27SB@aol.com
In a message dated 3/22/2005 7:04:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
NeilsenRM@comcast.net writes:
> really detect any increased drag but I was a bit distracted
Thanks Rick, funny you would say that, cause even though my friend in Key
West has not had one quit at idle he has lost power while throttled up. I asked
him if he notice more drag. He said that he did not, but "He was a bit
distracted" (-:
Steve
do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: bryan green <lgreen1@sc.rr.com>
Hi guys just started reading this post and if I recall correctly when I
was practicing dead stick landing in my Original Firestar it seemed to
have better glide with the engine off then with the prop turning at idle.
Bryan Green Elgin SC
N27SB@aol.com wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: N27SB@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 3/22/2005 7:04:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>NeilsenRM@comcast.net writes:
>
>
>
>>really detect any increased drag but I was a bit distracted
>>
>>
>
>Thanks Rick, funny you would say that, cause even though my friend in Key
>West has not had one quit at idle he has lost power while throttled up. I asked
>him if he notice more drag. He said that he did not, but "He was a bit
>distracted" (-:
>
>Steve
>do not archive
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Just to add my two cents worth to the drag/less drag with clutch/stopped
prop issue -
Had a friend locally put a clutch on his Titan Tornado because he was
flying it in and out of a very short strip. He claimed that with the engine
at idle it made a good air brake.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 08:19 PM 3/22/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: bryan green <lgreen1@sc.rr.com>
>
>Hi guys just started reading this post and if I recall correctly when I
>was practicing dead stick landing in my Original Firestar it seemed to
>have better glide with the engine off then with the prop turning at idle.
>Bryan Green Elgin SC
>
>N27SB@aol.com wrote:
>
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: N27SB@aol.com
> >
> >In a message dated 3/22/2005 7:04:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> >NeilsenRM@comcast.net writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >>really detect any increased drag but I was a bit distracted
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Thanks Rick, funny you would say that, cause even though my friend in Key
> >West has not had one quit at idle he has lost power while throttled up.
> I asked
> >him if he notice more drag. He said that he did not, but "He was a bit
> >distracted" (-:
> >
> >Steve
> >do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Pat, if you go to Key West, be sure to take the floatplane ride out to Fort
Jefferson on the Dry Tortugas, about 75 miles west of Key West. I went on
the Cessna Caravan with amphib floats last July, and it was a terrific
flight........but most definitely not a Kolb. :-) If you like, I can send
you some pics of it off List. Seems to me it was $128.00 for the ride, and
you get 3 hours there. Plenty of time for a good walk thru, but not enuf
for snorkeling. For that you need to go on the catamaran, but then miss the
aerial perspective. Wonderful trip. I also went fishing with Lady Bug
Charters on Key Largo. Great folks and good fishing. (tell 'em Lar sent
ya) I'm working very hard right now on getting enuf time off next summer to
do it again. Lar. Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>
> friend of mine in Key West has used one on his 582 Quicksilver Two place
> for
> years >>
>
> Hi Steve,
> I shall be going out towards Key West after Sun `n Fun. What do you rate
> my
> chances of bumming a ride?
> Does a 200lb passenger put a crimp in the performance of a Quicksilver?.
> I have flown in the Stearman they have at Key West and would love to do it
> in an ultralight.
>
> Cheers
>
> Pat
>
>
> --
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
was
| flying it in and out of a very short strip. He claimed that with the
engine
| at idle it made a good air brake.
|
| Richard Pike
Richard/All:
Good example.
A couple more examples of props that increase drag are:
1. Gyroplane main rotor blades. They are windmilling and providing
lift.
2. A helicopter in autorotation is windmilling and providing lift.
Some folks have a hard time understanding why a windmilling prop
creates a lot more drag than a dead stick. I remember one gentleman
on this List who stated his Kolb glided further with less drag at idle
rpm than with dead stick. Never did find out how he had it rigged to
do that. ;-)
Take care,
john h
PS: With a dead stick I can have a lot more choice on where I am
going to land than with a windmilling prop that is acting like a drag
chute. Course, with 40 degs of flaps on the old MKIII, I can have the
best of both.
Message 17
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| Subject: | FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Martin" <kolbdriver@hotmail.com>
John,
What part of Washington State will you be in, and what date? If around
Seattle, I'd be glad to squire you around.
Enjoyed meeting you and Ken in Arlington.
Don
>From: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot@comcast.net>
>Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Kolb-List: FSII/MKIII Flight Control/Feel Comparison
>Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:22:49 -0600
>
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson"
><kolbrapilot@comcast.net>
>
><snip>
>
> > Are you planning to try and make the flyin
> >at Homer's, John W and Richard P? <snip>
>
>I have commitments out in Washington State that weekend but sure would like
>to make it.
>
>
>John Williamson
>Arlington, TX
>
>Kolb Kolbra,
>http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot
>
>do not archive
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Clutch in "C" box questions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@telepath.com>
> Just to add my two cents worth to the drag/less drag with
> clutch/stopped prop issue - Had a friend locally put a clutch on his
> Titan Tornado because he was flying it in and out of a very short
> strip. He claimed that with the engine at idle it made a good air
> brake.
EAA/CAFE have done extensive testing of prop induced drag by
investigation of zero-thrust point end-play of a crankshaft when it
loads or unloads from thrust. Interesting reading....
http://members.eaa.org/home/flight_reports/technology.html
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
'71 SV, 492TC
Elmore City, OK
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