Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:36 AM - Re: Sport Pilot, Preventive Maintenance & FAR's (bryan green)
2. 03:51 AM - Re: Sport Pilot, Preventive Maintenance & FAR's (bryan green)
3. 04:26 AM - Re: Sun-N-Fun (Airgriff2@aol.com)
4. 04:30 AM - Re: Sun-N-Fun (Billie Futrell)
5. 05:47 AM - Re: Sport Pilot, Preventive Maintenance & FAR's (John Williamson)
6. 05:57 AM - Re: Sport Pilot, Preventive Maintenance & FAR's (John Hauck)
7. 06:16 AM - Re: Sport Pilot, Preventive Maintenance & FAR's (ul15rhb@juno.com)
8. 06:25 AM - Re: Sport Pilot, Preventive Maintenance & FAR's (ul15rhb@juno.com)
9. 08:01 AM - Re: Sport Pilot, Preventive Maintenance & FAR's (bryan green)
10. 01:13 PM - Re: Sport Pilot, Preventive Maintenance & FAR's (Charlie England)
11. 03:04 PM - Re: Sun-N-Fun's 2nd Annual Great Kolb Hanger Flying Event (Richard Swiderwski)
12. 04:00 PM - Re: Sun-N-Fun's 2nd Annual Great Kolb Hanger Flying Event (John Hauck)
13. 04:13 PM - Re: Sport Pilot, Preventive Maintenance & FAR's 19fc19 (John Williamson)
14. 04:49 PM - Chicago Area Pilots (Michael Sharp)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Sport Pilot, Preventive Maintenance & FAR's |
19fc19
--> Kolb-List message posted by: bryan green <lgreen1@sc.rr.com>
While we are on the subject of class time. While attending Ala. Aviation
Tech. Many years ago I completed the generals and power plant portion of
the A&P program but withdrew during airframes (due to a divorce). I
wonder if this time could count in place of the course and who would know.
Bryan Green Elgin SC do not archive
Ray Anderson wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
>
>Ralph,
> I read it the way you do. In fact, I'm going to take the 16 hr. course
as soon as one of our Universities near by, who have an extensive aeronautical
program, get it organized.
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Sport Pilot, Preventive Maintenance & FAR's |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: bryan green <lgreen1@sc.rr.com>
You bring to mind a whole new question John. I am about ready to start
the process of registering my rebuilt aircraft and would like to sell it
sometime in the future in hopes of buying a two hole Kolb. Since I will
be flying with a PPL anyway would it be better to register as EAB or ELSA?
Bryan Green Elgin SC
Firestar 447 BRS Powerfin
John Williamson wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot@comcast.net>
>
>Ralph and Ray,
>
>You have expanded the discussion to the area of ELSA. This is the category
>for that the "Illegal Ultralights" have a chance to become legal through.
>As the owner/operator of them, you can do the maintenance and inspections if
>you have completed the 16 or 120 hour courses yet to be set up.
>
>As the manufacturer of an Experimental-Amateur Built aircraft, you can do
>all maintenance and after you get the repairman certificate for your
>aircraft, you can do the annual inspection.
>
>Just because the aircraft is a Kolb does not make it an ELSA. ELSA is the
>temporary category that our illegal folks will have to use to get legal.
>
>If you are not the holder of the repairman certificate for the particular
>Kolb aircraft you own/operate, and it is not a factory built LSA, it
>requires a private pilot or better or a mechanic rating to make the return
>to service log book entry.
>
>As the owner/operator of an Experimental-Amateur Built aircraft, you can do
>all the maintenance you want to on it even if you did not build it. If you
>are not the builder of the aircraft and don't have the repairman certificate
>for that aircraft, then a person with the A&P rating is required to sign the
>log book for major alterations and repairs and the annual condition
>inspection.
>
>
>John Williamson
>Arlington, TX
>
>Kolb Kolbra,
>http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot
>
>do not archive
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Airgriff2@aol.com
Count me in for Sun & Fun. I will be camping at the main camp ground. As in
the past, I think the idea of wearing a name tag is a good idea if you want to
meet others around the Kolb display. Mabey a little sign can be put up on
their trailer to announce when and where for a gathering, or we can plan ahead
of
time for one? Actually today I'm putting a new radiator in my car so I can
make it down and back.
Bob Griffin
near Albany NY
Message 4
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: " Billie Futrell" <bill_joe@bellsouth.net>
Rick ,I will be there and I will be looking to bum a ride with some one.
Bill Futrell
Brooksville Fla
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: Sun-N-Fun
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen"
<NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>
> I have heard that a few of you will be going to Sun-N-Fun. I will be there
> on April 12-13 then I need to head back to Michigan. Who from the Kolb
> group will be attending. Has anyone planned a place and time for group
> gathering? I will be driving so I can take up to three people with me if
> anyone needs transportation for a restaurant gathering.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Sport Pilot, Preventive Maintenance & FAR's |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot@comcast.net>
Bryan,
If you can register as EAB, do it. That way you can get the repairman
certificate and don't have to attend the 16 or 120 hour courses to work on
or inspect the ELSA.
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolb Kolbra,
http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot
do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Sport Pilot, Preventive Maintenance & FAR's |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
repairman
| certificate and don't have to attend the 16 or 120 hour courses to
work on
| or inspect the ELSA.
|
|
| John Williamson
Morning John W/All:
You lost me with all the acronyms.
I don't know much, if anything, about the Sport Pilot thing, but I
like the idea of going experimental/home built. As I understand the
system, I can fly it with private ticket or SP, depending on my choice
and physical condition, as long as I do not flunk a flight physical.
john h
Message 7
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| Subject: | Sport Pilot, Preventive Maintenance & FAR's |
19e419
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "ul15rhb@juno.com" <ul15rhb@juno.com>
John,
"As the owner/operator of an Experimental-Amateur Built aircraft, you can do all
the maintenance you want to on it even if you did not build it. If you are not
the builder of the aircraft and don't have the repairman certificate for that
aircraft, then a person with the A&P rating is required to sign the log book
for major alterations and repairs and the annual condition inspection."
I think what you are saying here, is if you did go the Experimental AB route and
got it N-numbered, then sold it, the buyer would need an A&P to "sign the log
book for major alterations and repairs and the annual condition inspection."
If, however, you decide to not register your aircraft as an Experimental AB, you
can apply for N-numbers within the ELSA category and still maintain it if you
take the 16-hour course.
The ELSA category is the way to go for any Kolb that has not applied for N-numbers,
because the resale value will be more when it's time to sell. Why? Because
all the buyer needs is the 16-hour course instead of an A&P rating to maintain
it.
The ELSA category, I believe, is for all transitioning aircraft (one or two seat)
if it is not N-numbered. You could be building a Kolb right now and have time
to register it into the ELSA category. The FAA is allowing this temporary category
until January 31st, 2008.
Ralph
-- "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot@comcast.net> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot@comcast.net>
Ralph and Ray,
You have expanded the discussion to the area of ELSA. This is the category
for that the "Illegal Ultralights" have a chance to become legal through.
As the owner/operator of them, you can do the maintenance and inspections if
you have completed the 16 or 120 hour courses yet to be set up.
As the manufacturer of an Experimental-Amateur Built aircraft, you can do
all maintenance and after you get the repairman certificate for your
aircraft, you can do the annual inspection.
Just because the aircraft is a Kolb does not make it an ELSA. ELSA is the
temporary category that our illegal folks will have to use to get legal.
If you are not the holder of the repairman certificate for the particular
Kolb aircraft you own/operate, and it is not a factory built LSA, it
requires a private pilot or better or a mechanic rating to make the return
to service log book entry.
As the owner/operator of an Experimental-Amateur Built aircraft, you can do
all the maintenance you want to on it even if you did not build it. If you
are not the builder of the aircraft and don't have the repairman certificate
for that aircraft, then a person with the A&P rating is required to sign the
log book for major alterations and repairs and the annual condition
inspection.
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolb Kolbra,
http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot
do not archive
Now includes pop-up blocker!
Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today!
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Sport Pilot, Preventive Maintenance & FAR's |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "ul15rhb@juno.com" <ul15rhb@juno.com>
-- "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
repairman
| certificate and don't have to attend the 16 or 120 hour courses to
work on
| or inspect the ELSA.
|
|
| John Williamson
Morning John W/All:
You lost me with all the acronyms.
I don't know much, if anything, about the Sport Pilot thing, but I
like the idea of going experimental/home built. As I understand the
system, I can fly it with private ticket or SP, depending on my choice
and physical condition, as long as I do not flunk a flight physical.
john h
John, there is nothing for you to be concerned about unless you think that you
can't pass the flight physical. At that point don't take it. If you do and flunk
it, you won't be able to fly again, unless you want to go back to flying an
Ultrastar. When you get up in years, you can transition your PPL to an SP ticket
using your drivers license in place of your medical.
Ralph
Now includes pop-up blocker!
Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today!
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Sport Pilot, Preventive Maintenance & FAR's |
19e419
--> Kolb-List message posted by: bryan green <lgreen1@sc.rr.com>
ul15rhb@juno.com wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "ul15rhb@juno.com" <ul15rhb@juno.com>
>
>Ralph wrote
>
>If, however, you decide to not register your aircraft as an Experimental AB, you
can apply for N-numbers within the ELSA category and still maintain it if you
take the 16-hour course.
>
>The ELSA category is the way to go for any Kolb that has not applied for N-numbers,
because the resale value will be more when it's time to sell. Why? Because
all the buyer needs is the 16-hour course instead of an A&P rating to maintain
it.
>
>The ELSA category, I believe, is for all transitioning aircraft (one or two seat)
if it is not N-numbered. You could be building a Kolb right now and have time
to register it into the ELSA category. The FAA is allowing this temporary
category until January 31st, 2008.
>
>Ralph
>
>I am thinking this might be the way for me to go. 1. I think it would be easier
to sell. 2. Even though I am totally rebuilding the plane I would not have to
worry about the building log to prove I built it and would only need a afidavit
of ownership instead of a bill of sale.
>
>
Bryan (thinking hard)
Do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Sport Pilot, Preventive Maintenance & FAR's |
19fc19
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
ul15rhb@juno.com wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "ul15rhb@juno.com" <ul15rhb@juno.com>
>
>
>John and others,
>
>My understanding of any maintenance done under ELSA (which could include all Kolbs)
would require only the 16-hour maintenance course. You can then perform
any work done on your own plane and inspect it. There is no need to have an A&P
inspect it even if you sell it. The new owner would have to take the 16-hour
course to become eligible to maintain it.
>
>Under Experimental AB, you are the repairman (and the manufacturer as you built
over 51% of it), and can do any repairs and mods without an A&P, until you sell
it. The new owner would then need an A&P to inspect it after the repairs or
mods.
>
>An A&P inspection (or 120-hour maintenance course) is required for SLSA (Special
LSA) which is an entirely different class than the above two categories. This
is for manufactured "ready to fly" aircraft.
>
>Ralph
>
>
>-- "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot@comcast.net> wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot@comcast.net>
>
>Hi Gang,
>
>Just killing time waiting for parts to get here for the Kolbra and ran
>across a possible problem for folks that are flying their Kolb as a Light
>Sport Aircraft.
>
>If the Kolb is registered as Experimental-Amateur Built, FAR 43.7 requires
>an A&P or the manufacturer or a person with at least a Private Pilot
>certificate to make the logbook entry for return to service after
>maintenance has been performed on the Kolb.
>
>A person with a Sport Pilot certificate can only make the return to service
>entry for an aircraft owned or operated by that pilot and issued a special
>airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category after performing
>preventive maintenance under the provisions of 43.3 (g).
>
>Just some things to think about. Here is the FAR paragraph that got my
>attention.
>
>Sec. 43.7
>
>Persons authorized to approve aircraft, airframes, aircraft engines,
>propellers, appliances, or component parts for return to service after
>maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.
>
>(a) Except as provided in this section and Sec. 43.17, no person, other than
>the Administrator, may approve an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine,
>propeller, appliance, or component part for return to service after it has
>undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.
>(b) The holder of a mechanic certificate or an inspection authorization may
>approve an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or
>component part for return to service as provided in Part 65 of this chapter.
>(c) The holder of a repair station certificate may approve an aircraft,
>airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part for
>return to service as provided in Part 145 of this chapter.
>(d) A manufacturer may approve for return to service any aircraft, airframe,
>aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part which that
>manufacturer has worked on under Sec. 43.3(j). However, except for minor
>alterations, the work must have been done in accordance with technical data
>approved by the Administrator.
>(e) The holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating
>certificate issued under Part 121, 127, or 135, may approve an aircraft,
>airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part for
>return to service as provided in Part 121 or 135 of this chapter, as
>applicable.
>(f) A person holding at least a private pilot certificate may approve an
>aircraft for return to service after performing preventive maintenance under
>the provisions of Sec. 43.3(g).
>[(g) The holder of a repairman certificate (light-sport aircraft) with a
>maintenance rating may approve an aircraft issued a special airworthiness
>certificate in light-sport category for return to service, as provided in
>part 65 of this chapter.
>(h) The holder of at least a sport pilot certificate may approve an aircraft
>owned or operated by that pilot and issued a special airworthiness
>certificate in the light-sport category for return to service after
>performing preventive maintenance under the provisions of 43.3 (g).]
>
>Amdt. 43-39, Eff. 9/1/2004
>
>John Williamson
>Arlington, TX
>
>Kolb Kolbra,
>http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot
>
>do not archive
>
I can't speak with any authority about sport pilot/light sport category,
but I might have a little good news for you on the Experimental
homebuilt front. Anyone, repeat, anyone can do Any work on an
experimental homebuilt category a/c. The FAR's are pretty convoluted so
it can be easy to miss, but the info is hiding in plain sight in the 1st
section of FAR 43, 43.1b.
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/pdf/14cfr43.1.pdf
Part 43 doesn't apply. (Except at annual condition inspection time. The
operating limitations for the a/c specify that the inspection be done on
concordance with part 43. Go figure.)
The only thing any certificate is needed for is signing off the annual
condition inspection. For that, the signer must possess either the
repairman's certificate for that *particular a/c* (meaning the builder
of that particular plane) or at least an A&P ticket or better (A&P with
IA). Remember, this is just for the *inspection*, not doing any of the
work related to the inspection. Anyone can do the work (oil change,
plugs, fabric, welding, you name it).
You can find the same info with different wording on the EAA website or
by calling them.
No certificate of any kind is needed to do major mods on experimental
homebuilts. Been there, done that, with the FAA's blessing on two
different homebuilts that I've owned but didn't build. No cert. holder
is needed to sign off a major mod. The procedure varies with when the
operating limitations were issued, but current ones simply require that
the owner/operator notify the FAA of the mod (not ask but notify),
propose a flight test area for a 5 hour test period, get FAA concurrence
for the test area, & make appropriate log book entries describing the
mod & putting the plane into 'phase one' testing, fly the 5 hour test
period, & make a log entry describing the successful test & returning
the a/c to 'phase two' normal flight status.
My annual condition inspections were/are signed off by whatever A&P or
IA that's handy & willing to sign. Be aware that some A&P's & IA's are
reluctant to sign off condition inspections on homebuilts because they
aren't familiar with experimentals & are afraid they will overlook
something & be held liable. I've never had that problem, but others
have. It helps if you aren't in a major metro area where all they see
are turbines. :-) Finding the guys that maintain Ag planes is a good
place to start.
I *think* the EAA info says that the higher level of training for 'light
sport' or whatever the new class is called will allow the cert. holder
to sign off 'annuals' on that class a/c. A perusal of the EAA website
should give a definite answer to that one.
If I had an unregistered 'fat UL' it would present a hard question which
way to register if I had the option. One way, I could do all the work
but might need an A&P to sign the 'annual', the other way I'd need the
training to do any work at all but might be able to get qualified to
sign off the 'annual'.
All clear now? ;-)
Charlie
RV-4 flying, RV-7 under construction, wishing for a Kolb to fly this
evening.
Message 11
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|
| Subject: | Sun-N-Fun's 2nd Annual Great Kolb Hanger Flying Event |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderwski" <rswiderski@earthlink.net>
News Flash: Sun-N-Fun's 2nd Annual Great Kolb Hanger Flying Event is taking
shape!
Kolbers:
Last year George Randolph & I hosted a this gathering at my trailer
& it proved the highlight of the week for some of us. The wonderful
stories, jokes, technical information exchange & camaraderie was priceless.
We plan on being there Wed thru Sat. We will be setup in the UL Trailer
field immediately adjacent & south of UL Camping area. Our game plan was to
provide a time & place for Kolbers to meet without a lot of complications or
unnecessary work. Everyone was asked to bring a chair & a smile, we'd
provide some hot drinks or facilities to cook your supper. George surprised
us with his infamous beans which if I recall correctly, only John Hauck was
man enough to eat.
We need to select a nite that is best for most people. I would
suggest we do not compete with the evening pyrotechnic flight program which
I assume is taking place again this year & I obviously don't know the day if
it is. If the group is set on going out to eat, then it should not be on
that nite either.
I'll bring my laptop with pics & info on my turbo Geo Metro
conversion. Maybe John could bring some of his awesome travel pics & other
possibilities are exciting! We'll have a mini campfire, a few extra chairs,
ice, water, coffee & tea, & a generator to charge your laptop. You all can
bring snacks or whatever you need to get rid of, or just yourself.
So let's hear some feedback on your choice of which nite to gather
or which nite not to gather.
Richard Swiderski
SlingShot
Turbo Suzuki Conversion
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Sun-N-Fun's 2nd Annual Great Kolb Hanger Flying Event |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Richard/George/Gang:
Sounds good to me.
Not much I can bring to the feast, but will be glad to make a cash
donation to help off set expenses.
I will bring my lap top DVD with the same pics I shared during my
briefing at last years Kolb Home Coming. Once I get started, it'll
take a couple hours to shut me up. ;-)
My lap top does a better job of picture presentation if it is running
on 110 rather than battery. Photos are much brighter with the
additional power.
I'll try and cut my DVD down in size some more. Would be nice to have
it around an hour. It is so easy to burn up time, because most every
picture sparks another story to share.
Wish I had a real good map of the North American Continent, with route
of flight depicted. Then we could keep track of where the photos were
taken during the flight. I could put one on another CD, use Richard's
laptop to show it while we are looking at the photos. We'll work
something out.
Looking forward to the flight down and the time spent at Sun and Fun.
John Williamson and Gary Haley are going to RON at hauck's holler
Sunday night, 10 Apr. Hopefully, we can get them into Gantt
International Airport, 750 ft, and 5 minutes away, rather than
Wetumpka Airport, 3,000 ft and an hour away. We will fly down to
Lakeland Monday, 11 Apr. Will be setting up camp in the UL/Lt Plane
tie down area.
Take care,
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Swiderwski" <rswiderski@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Sun-N-Fun's 2nd Annual Great Kolb Hanger
Flying Event
| --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderwski"
<rswiderski@earthlink.net>
|
| News Flash: Sun-N-Fun's 2nd Annual Great Kolb Hanger Flying Event is
taking
| shape!
|
| Kolbers:
| Last year George Randolph & I hosted a this gathering at my
trailer
| & it proved the highlight of the week for some of us. The wonderful
| stories, jokes, technical information exchange & camaraderie was
priceless.
| We plan on being there Wed thru Sat. We will be setup in the UL
Trailer
| field immediately adjacent & south of UL Camping area. Our game
plan was to
| provide a time & place for Kolbers to meet without a lot of
complications or
| unnecessary work. Everyone was asked to bring a chair & a smile,
we'd
| provide some hot drinks or facilities to cook your supper. George
surprised
| us with his infamous beans which if I recall correctly, only John
Hauck was
| man enough to eat.
| We need to select a nite that is best for most people. I
would
| suggest we do not compete with the evening pyrotechnic flight
program which
| I assume is taking place again this year & I obviously don't know
the day if
| it is. If the group is set on going out to eat, then it should not
be on
| that nite either.
| I'll bring my laptop with pics & info on my turbo Geo Metro
| conversion. Maybe John could bring some of his awesome travel pics
& other
| possibilities are exciting! We'll have a mini campfire, a few extra
chairs,
| ice, water, coffee & tea, & a generator to charge your laptop. You
all can
| bring snacks or whatever you need to get rid of, or just yourself.
| So let's hear some feedback on your choice of which nite to
gather
| or which nite not to gather.
|
| Richard Swiderski
| SlingShot
| Turbo Suzuki Conversion
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Message 13
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| Subject: | Sport Pilot, Preventive Maintenance & FAR's 19fc19 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot@comcast.net>
Charlie,
>>>>I can't speak with any authority about sport pilot/light sport category,
but I might have a little good news for you on the Experimental
homebuilt front. Anyone, repeat, anyone can do Any work on an
experimental homebuilt category a/c. The FAR's are pretty convoluted so
it can be easy to miss, but the info is hiding in plain sight in the 1st
section of FAR 43, 43.1b.
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov
/cfr_2003/pdf/14cfr43.1.pdf
Part 43 doesn't apply. (Except at annual condition inspection time. The
operating limitations for the a/c specify that the inspection be done on
concordance with part 43. Go figure.)
>>>>>
Excellent research Charlie, I had forgot all about 43.1.
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolb Kolbra,
http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot
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Message 14
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| Subject: | Chicago Area Pilots |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Michael Sharp <kolbdriver@mlsharp.com>
Not really Kolb related but...
If there are any Kolb pilots in the Chicago Joliet Area??
Please Contact me off list. michael@mlsharp.com
I have a job offer in Joliet and need some information..
and sorry guys for the non flying post... ;-)
Thanks,
Mike
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