Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:53 AM - Re: 447 break in (Denny Rowe)
2. 04:50 AM - Wiggles (Edward Steuber)
3. 04:53 AM - wiggles (Edward Steuber)
4. 05:07 AM - Welder (Dwight.Kottke@hti.htch.com)
5. 05:29 AM - FSII vortex generators (Rex Rodebush)
6. 06:31 AM - Re: FSII vortex generators (Christopher Armstrong)
7. 06:32 AM - Re: 447 break in (Beauford)
8. 07:02 AM - Re: VAL COM 760 XNSVR WITH HARNESS (Frank Reynen)
9. 07:27 AM - Re: 447 break in (jerb)
10. 07:42 AM - Re: FSII vortex generators (Richard Pike)
11. 08:15 AM - Re: FSII vortex generators (Richard Pike)
12. 09:21 AM - Re: FSII vortex generators (Christopher Armstrong)
13. 09:58 AM - Re: Welder (Rusty)
14. 10:46 AM - Re: wiggles (Steve Garvelink)
15. 03:16 PM - Re: Welder (HShack@aol.com)
16. 04:03 PM - Re: Welder (DAquaNut@aol.com)
17. 04:26 PM - Re: 447 break in (DAquaNut@aol.com)
18. 04:28 PM - Re: Welder (Don Gherardini)
19. 09:54 PM - Re: 447 break in (jerb)
20. 09:55 PM - Re: Welder (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
21. 10:21 PM - Re: Welder (jerb)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List:447 break in |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
Ed,
I would just go with the normal 50 to 1, however I recall my old Pterodactyl
manual recomended extra oil for the break in period.
Maybe 30 or 40 to 1 for the first couple gallons if you are so inclined.
The only reason you do it with the injected engines is you may have air
pockets in the injector pump and lines.
Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: <DAquaNut@AOL.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List:447 break in
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
>
>
> List,
>
>
> In prep for breaking in my 447, I see recommendations to put oil in the
> gas along with oil in the injector tank on engines that have oil injectors
> on
> them, for the break-in process. Sounds like double oil for the first
> tank to
> me. Any one use double or extra oil to break in a 447 that does not
> have
> oil injection. I will be using Air Cooled Pennzoil but the manual doesn't
> say
> to increase the oil mixture any stronger than 50/ 1. Comments?
>
> Ed (in Hou waiting for the rain to stop.)
>
>
>
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Edward Steuber" <esteuber@rochester.rr.com>
Hey ,
Got a question for the very experienced drivers in the group !
I have been flying Ultrastars , both modified with center line sticks and
higher gear legs, and I have noticed a wiggle in the tail when I get in rough
air. I tend to fly in rougher air and wind than most UL's due to our limited
flying conditions here in Western NY and the time demands of my job. Both machines
have good tight boom connections to the frame fore and aft.....nothing loose
! The tail brace wires are also tight ! The new machine has a much longer
gear and the wiggle seems to be worse and am wondering if it can be related .
The wiggle is a sway left and right , not vertical... only when I get turbulence....I
do have a good size windshield that may be affecting airflow to the tail.
One other feature is that this Ultrastar is cruising much faster than it was
intended...75 MPH....80 if I run the Cuyuna at 5800RPM ...... at slower speeds
I do not get the problem.
The question is , have any of you experienced this in any of the Kolbs besides
the Ultrastar. I noticed in similar boom type aircraft ( Rans S-18 ) there
are extra brace wires between the wing tips and the vertical fin that would
eliminate this problem.
I have some pictures of the modified Ultrastar in the Photo share Archives
if anybody is interested.....couple years back
Ed in Western NY
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Edward Steuber" <esteuber@rochester.rr.com>
OOPS....the date on the photo share is Sept 18 2004 ... Edward Steuber...for the
photo share pictures...
Ed in Western NY
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
04/26/2005 07:06:01 AM,
Serialize complete at 04/26/2005 07:06:02 AM,
Serialize by Router on HUTMail1/HUT/HTI(Release 6.5.3|September 14, 2004)
at
04/26/2005 07:06:02 AM,
Itemize by SMTP Server on HUDOMGW1/HTI(Release 6.5.3|September 14, 2004)
at
04/26/2005 07:06:39 AM,
Serialize by Router on HUDOMGW1/HTI(Release 6.5.3|September 14, 2004) at
04/26/2005
07:06:43 AM,
Serialize complete at 04/26/2005 07:06:43 AM
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Dwight.Kottke@hti.htch.com
Hey comrades of the wild blue yonder. What is the recommended type of
welder to use for welding 4130 chrome moly? A stick welder would not be a
very good choice, so how about TIG, wire feed, or gas. What's the best
one to use?
The Flying Farmer (with broken gear sockets)
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | FSII vortex generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <rrodebush@tema.net>
Richard,
Now I'm really confused!
Take a look at the Cubcrafters web site and look under mods and parts.
They show VG's on a supercub with the VG's located forward towards the
L.E. out on the tips in front of the ailerons. They say that is to make
sure the root stalls first & that you have aileron control through the
stall. You have located them just the opposite.
I assumed that at a high angel of attack you would want the VG's located
closer to the L.E. in front of the ailerons so that they would start
working before separation. The air would already separate ahead of the
VG's at the root.
Am I thinking about this wrong? Can any of the aerodynamic guys explain
this??
Rex Rodebush
"From: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Subject: Kolb-List: FSII vortex generators
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Got the pictures on the web page of the vg placement on the FSII."
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | FSII vortex generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" <tophera@centurytel.net>
The cubcrafters website seams correct to me. I am curious to hear the
reasoning behind the pattern used by the high powered FSII guys. Your
thoughts below track mine exactly, the farther forward you put the VGs the
more they should work to delay separation (stall).
Since the Kolbs have a fairly low aspect ratio, untapered wing, they don't
have a tendency to drop a tip, so I would just place all the VGs at the
optimum location to get the aero benefits from them. If there is a pattern
it must be to make the inboard VGs less effective to make sure that the
inboard end stalls first. If you do use any staggered pattern, I think it
is something that you should thoroughly understand and carefully test, since
the pattern could very easily make the wing much worse (Like only putting
VGs inboard... that could be a disaster, which is why having VGs fall off is
actually kinda dangerous. If only a couple on one outboard wing panel came
off, you would have an auto spin machine.) It would be a shame to take the
docile Kolb stall and turn it into a stall and spinner!
Topher
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rex Rodebush
Subject: Kolb-List: FSII vortex generators
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <rrodebush@tema.net>
Richard,
Now I'm really confused!
Take a look at the Cubcrafters web site and look under mods and parts.
They show VG's on a supercub with the VG's located forward towards the
L.E. out on the tips in front of the ailerons. They say that is to make
sure the root stalls first & that you have aileron control through the
stall. You have located them just the opposite.
I assumed that at a high angel of attack you would want the VG's located
closer to the L.E. in front of the ailerons so that they would start
working before separation. The air would already separate ahead of the
VG's at the root.
Am I thinking about this wrong? Can any of the aerodynamic guys explain
this??
Rex Rodebush
"From: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Subject: Kolb-List: FSII vortex generators
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Got the pictures on the web page of the vg placement on the FSII."
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List:447 break in |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Ed:
One of the rotax mechs over at Lockwood advised me (off the record) to use a
little extra oil during my 447 break-in... that was over three years ago,
but I think I recall his saying 35 or 40 to 1. I did so, and when I pulled
the plugs afterwards, there was no excess crud on them, or visible on the
tops of the pistons.
Good luck with yours...
Do Not Archive
Beauford
----- Original Message -----
From: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List:447 break in
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
>
>
> Ed,
> I would just go with the normal 50 to 1, however I recall my old
> Pterodactyl
> manual recomended extra oil for the break in period.
> Maybe 30 or 40 to 1 for the first couple gallons if you are so inclined.
> The only reason you do it with the injected engines is you may have air
> pockets in the injector pump and lines.
>
> Denny
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <DAquaNut@AOL.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List:447 break in
>
>
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
>>
>>
>> List,
>>
>>
>> In prep for breaking in my 447, I see recommendations to put oil in the
>> gas along with oil in the injector tank on engines that have oil
>> injectors
>> on
>> them, for the break-in process. Sounds like double oil for the first
>> tank to
>> me. Any one use double or extra oil to break in a 447 that does not
>> have
>> oil injection. I will be using Air Cooled Pennzoil but the manual
>> doesn't
>> say
>> to increase the oil mixture any stronger than 50/ 1. Comments?
>>
>> Ed (in Hou waiting for the rain to stop.)
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: VAL COM 760 XNSVR WITH HARNESS |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Frank Reynen" <frank_reynen@ix.netcom.com>
John and Ed,
I also installed a Headsets Inc ANR retro kit in my 4DLX headset from
Flightcom and I am pleased with the noise reduction.
The unit can be connected to your 12 V aircraft supply system if you splice
a 9 Volt Zener diode in the powerline instead of using
9 V batteries.
This is working great for 2 years already in my MK3/912
Thanks again for distributing the flyers at Sun and Fun.
Looks like I may have sold the MK3 locally pending a test flight this week.
Frank Reynen
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Chmielewski" <edchmiel@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: VAL COM 760 XNSVR WITH HARNESS
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Edward Chmielewski"
<edchmiel@mindspring.com>
>
> Hi John & All,
>
> I know what you mean about hearing loss! My upper register is
about gone. I use ANR headsets in most of the
> aircraft I fly, and can highly recommend the Headsets, Inc., add-on ANR
system. It's about $160, takes a short evening
> to put in, is very durable, and works as well as the $1K Bose/Dave
Clarks/Sennheisers I use in corporate turboprops. I
> know Miss P'fer may be noisy, but sit in a Merlin IIIB with 2 howling
Garretts 4 feet away and you'll find they can be
> pretty noisy too. Turning the ANR on is akin to placing a large pillow
over each ear. Truly remarkable. The radio
> volume jumps 50% too, due to the noise isolation. Use the silicone
earseals also, as they seal around glasses and allow
> the ANR to work to its best.
>
> Good Luck,
>
> Ed in JXN (MI!)
> MkII/503
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Kolb-List: VAL COM 760 XNSVR WITH HARNESS
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> >
> > Hi Gang:
> >
> > Anyone out there own a VAL COM 760 XNSVR WITH HARNESS?
> >
> > My hearing is getting so bad I can not understand what is being
> > transmitted with my little ICOM A3, which I operate at max volume. I
> > believe I could do a better job of communicating if I had a radio that
> > would put out more audio power. The VAL and ICOM put out 5W audio,
> > but the VAL is about $120.00 cheaper than the ICOM.
> >
> > Another route might be Active Noise Reduction headset. Was reading an
> > ad from Lightspeed. They said by removing a lot of the noise one
> > would have a better chance of hearing what was being communicated
> > rather than all the racket. Anyone have any experience with ANR and
> > small hand held VHF rigs like my ICOM A3?
> >
> > My primary problem is when I fly with other Kolbs and small
> > experimentals and ULs. Talking to ATC facilities and GA aircraft with
> > powerful radios is not a problem for me to hear and understand.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > john h
> > MKIII
> >
> >
>
>
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List:447 break in |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
Ed,
I've had a couple of the Rotax 447's. Use the normal oil mix of
50:1. That equates to 2.56 oz of oil per gallon. (How that number is
arrived there is 128 oz in a gallon, divide the 128 by the ratio of 50
parts fuel to 1 part oil (128/50) = 2.56 oz per gallon.) Don't put to much
extra oil in or you risk gumming up the rings, you want the rings to wear
and seat into the cylinder. Use mineral based oil like Pennzoil for the
first 20 hours, it has taken about that long on both our engines to develop
full power. Had to adjust the prop pitch on our IVO 2-3 times during that
first 20 hours.
The reason they put extra oil in the oil injection engines like the 503 and
582 for the first couple hours is only for a safety measure until it can be
determined that the oil injection is properly working.
During the break in especially during the high RPM runs you will fine it
may be difficult to keep EGT's in normal range. We found temporarily
hooking up the enricher (choke) beneficial to lower the EGT's. If your
using a ground adjustable prop like an IVO, you may find you have to
increase the pitch as the break-in progresses to reduce and limit the full
throttle RPM and keep the EGT's RPM down in normal operating range. Only
takes a couple of minutes and your back running.
You'll need something to keep track of time with a seconds hand or
digits. I also suggest you have a helper while doing this. You'll need to
tie the tail of the aircraft down with some good rope. Also ear plugs are
a must. Don't do the break-in right next to your hangar neighbors, go off
some where to a more isolated area. On some other guy on our field who
didn't use good judgement I've actually seen tempers raise to the point of
actually came to blows due to the loud piercing noise . It really works on
peoples nerves over time while running at or near full throttle.
Jerb
At 01:29 AM 4/26/05 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
>
>
>List,
>
>
> In prep for breaking in my 447, I see recommendations to put oil in the
>gas along with oil in the injector tank on engines that have oil
>injectors on
>them, for the break-in process. Sounds like double oil for the first
>tank to
>me. Any one use double or extra oil to break in a 447 that does not have
>oil injection. I will be using Air Cooled Pennzoil but the manual doesn't
>say
>to increase the oil mixture any stronger than 50/ 1. Comments?
>
> Ed (in Hou waiting for the rain to stop.)
>
>
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | FSII vortex generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Here is the thinking (if such it be...) the Kolb wing reacts best (imo)
when the vg's are around 11.5 inches back from the leading edge. When I was
seeking the absolute lowest stall speed on my MKIII, I got a better
response and a slower stall speed at that distance rather than farther
forward.
That is why the inboard ones are further forward, because that gave a
higher stall speed than when the vg's were further aft, yet they do seem to
help the climb rate. Vg's help the climb rate even when you climbing
notably faster than stall.
I completely agree with your thinking, and I understand the concept that
you need to get the vg's forward and into non separated air in order to
make them work correctly and maintain an unseparated airflow across the
wing at high angles of attack, yet the testing we did does not really bear
this out. The aft mounted vg's hang on longer at slow flight and stall
later than the more forward ones, and improve the handling at slow flight
speeds. It is "common knowledge" that the Kolb airfoil is sort of unique in
how it behaves, I assume this is why?
If you think that we are really making a serious mistake, or even worse -
that we might be giving out dangerous advice, perhaps leading someone else
to make a mistake that will get them hurt, then I bow to your professional
opinion, and we will remove the 7 forward/in line vg's from the inboard
sections.
(For those of you new to the list, Topher does aerodynamics for a living...)
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (42oldPoops)
At 08:29 AM 4/26/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong"
><tophera@centurytel.net>
>
>The cubcrafters website seams correct to me. I am curious to hear the
>reasoning behind the pattern used by the high powered FSII guys. Your
>thoughts below track mine exactly, the farther forward you put the VGs the
>more they should work to delay separation (stall).
>
>Since the Kolbs have a fairly low aspect ratio, untapered wing, they don't
>have a tendency to drop a tip, so I would just place all the VGs at the
>optimum location to get the aero benefits from them. If there is a pattern
>it must be to make the inboard VGs less effective to make sure that the
>inboard end stalls first. If you do use any staggered pattern, I think it
>is something that you should thoroughly understand and carefully test, since
>the pattern could very easily make the wing much worse (Like only putting
>VGs inboard... that could be a disaster, which is why having VGs fall off is
>actually kinda dangerous. If only a couple on one outboard wing panel came
>off, you would have an auto spin machine.) It would be a shame to take the
>docile Kolb stall and turn it into a stall and spinner!
>
>Topher
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rex Rodebush
>To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Kolb-List: FSII vortex generators
>
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <rrodebush@tema.net>
>
>Richard,
>
>Now I'm really confused!
>
>Take a look at the Cubcrafters web site and look under mods and parts.
>They show VG's on a supercub with the VG's located forward towards the
>L.E. out on the tips in front of the ailerons. They say that is to make
>sure the root stalls first & that you have aileron control through the
>stall. You have located them just the opposite.
>
>I assumed that at a high angel of attack you would want the VG's located
>closer to the L.E. in front of the ailerons so that they would start
>working before separation. The air would already separate ahead of the
>VG's at the root.
>
>Am I thinking about this wrong? Can any of the aerodynamic guys explain
>this??
>
>Rex Rodebush
>
>"From: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
>Subject: Kolb-List: FSII vortex generators
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
>
>Got the pictures on the web page of the vg placement on the FSII."
>
>
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | FSII vortex generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Follow up on my previous post - forgot to mention earlier - the FSII wing
is not a constant chord, it has more chord toward the tips because of the
ailerons, and less at the root, no ailerons there. Since conventional
wisdom has vg's at 10% of the chord, I suspected that we were getting
better results in front of the ailerons because the vg's at that point were
at about 10% of the chord, and the ones further inboard are also at about
10% of the chord, even though they were further forward.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 10:41 AM 4/26/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
>
>Here is the thinking (if such it be...) the Kolb wing reacts best (imo)
>when the vg's are around 11.5 inches back from the leading edge. When I was
>seeking the absolute lowest stall speed on my MKIII, I got a better
>response and a slower stall speed at that distance rather than farther
>forward.
>
>That is why the inboard ones are further forward, because that gave a
>higher stall speed than when the vg's were further aft, yet they do seem to
>help the climb rate. Vg's help the climb rate even when you climbing
>notably faster than stall.
>
>I completely agree with your thinking, and I understand the concept that
>you need to get the vg's forward and into non separated air in order to
>make them work correctly and maintain an unseparated airflow across the
>wing at high angles of attack, yet the testing we did does not really bear
>this out. The aft mounted vg's hang on longer at slow flight and stall
>later than the more forward ones, and improve the handling at slow flight
>speeds. It is "common knowledge" that the Kolb airfoil is sort of unique in
>how it behaves, I assume this is why?
>
>If you think that we are really making a serious mistake, or even worse -
>that we might be giving out dangerous advice, perhaps leading someone else
>to make a mistake that will get them hurt, then I bow to your professional
>opinion, and we will remove the 7 forward/in line vg's from the inboard
>sections.
>
>(For those of you new to the list, Topher does aerodynamics for a living...)
>
>Richard Pike
>MKIII N420P (42oldPoops)
>
>
>At 08:29 AM 4/26/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong"
> ><tophera@centurytel.net>
> >
> >The cubcrafters website seams correct to me. I am curious to hear the
> >reasoning behind the pattern used by the high powered FSII guys. Your
> >thoughts below track mine exactly, the farther forward you put the VGs the
> >more they should work to delay separation (stall).
> >
> >Since the Kolbs have a fairly low aspect ratio, untapered wing, they don't
> >have a tendency to drop a tip, so I would just place all the VGs at the
> >optimum location to get the aero benefits from them. If there is a pattern
> >it must be to make the inboard VGs less effective to make sure that the
> >inboard end stalls first. If you do use any staggered pattern, I think it
> >is something that you should thoroughly understand and carefully test, since
> >the pattern could very easily make the wing much worse (Like only putting
> >VGs inboard... that could be a disaster, which is why having VGs fall off is
> >actually kinda dangerous. If only a couple on one outboard wing panel came
> >off, you would have an auto spin machine.) It would be a shame to take the
> >docile Kolb stall and turn it into a stall and spinner!
> >
> >Topher
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rex Rodebush
> >To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Kolb-List: FSII vortex generators
> >
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <rrodebush@tema.net>
> >
> >Richard,
> >
> >Now I'm really confused!
> >
> >Take a look at the Cubcrafters web site and look under mods and parts.
> >They show VG's on a supercub with the VG's located forward towards the
> >L.E. out on the tips in front of the ailerons. They say that is to make
> >sure the root stalls first & that you have aileron control through the
> >stall. You have located them just the opposite.
> >
> >I assumed that at a high angel of attack you would want the VG's located
> >closer to the L.E. in front of the ailerons so that they would start
> >working before separation. The air would already separate ahead of the
> >VG's at the root.
> >
> >Am I thinking about this wrong? Can any of the aerodynamic guys explain
> >this??
> >
> >Rex Rodebush
> >
> >"From: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
> >Subject: Kolb-List: FSII vortex generators
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
> >
> >Got the pictures on the web page of the vg placement on the FSII."
> >
> >
>
>
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | FSII vortex generators |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" <tophera@centurytel.net>
That is a good observation... I have nearly full span ailerons on mine so I
forgot about the hitch in the wing. I think that since the airfoil is the
same inboard and outboard the tacked on aileron doesn't really change things
much. If you actually had an airfoil that changed I would be more willing
to agree that moving aft made sense.
I don't think your giving advice, bad or good, but are giving information
and that is always good. All the information collected by careful flight
testing is great. I found it super interesting. Until you test something
you don't know... you just have a guess, educated or otherwise.
The only thing I wanted to point out is that even things that seem like
little changes require careful and complete testing. VGs put on in a
pattern could result in dangerous stall behavior, but if you get up to safe
altitude and test it, doing stalls in turns with sloppy rudder inputs to
cover the whole range of bad spin entry potential you will know how your
modification effects the plane. And when you pass on to us the results then
we all benefit.
Thanks for the data
Topher
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: FSII vortex generators
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Follow up on my previous post - forgot to mention earlier - the FSII wing
is not a constant chord, it has more chord toward the tips because of the
ailerons, and less at the root, no ailerons there. Since conventional
wisdom has vg's at 10% of the chord, I suspected that we were getting
better results in front of the ailerons because the vg's at that point were
at about 10% of the chord, and the ones further inboard are also at about
10% of the chord, even though they were further forward.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 10:41 AM 4/26/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
>
>Here is the thinking (if such it be...) the Kolb wing reacts best (imo)
>when the vg's are around 11.5 inches back from the leading edge. When I was
>seeking the absolute lowest stall speed on my MKIII, I got a better
>response and a slower stall speed at that distance rather than farther
>forward.
>
>That is why the inboard ones are further forward, because that gave a
>higher stall speed than when the vg's were further aft, yet they do seem to
>help the climb rate. Vg's help the climb rate even when you climbing
>notably faster than stall.
>
>I completely agree with your thinking, and I understand the concept that
>you need to get the vg's forward and into non separated air in order to
>make them work correctly and maintain an unseparated airflow across the
>wing at high angles of attack, yet the testing we did does not really bear
>this out. The aft mounted vg's hang on longer at slow flight and stall
>later than the more forward ones, and improve the handling at slow flight
>speeds. It is "common knowledge" that the Kolb airfoil is sort of unique in
>how it behaves, I assume this is why?
>
>If you think that we are really making a serious mistake, or even worse -
>that we might be giving out dangerous advice, perhaps leading someone else
>to make a mistake that will get them hurt, then I bow to your professional
>opinion, and we will remove the 7 forward/in line vg's from the inboard
>sections.
>
>(For those of you new to the list, Topher does aerodynamics for a
living...)
>
>Richard Pike
>MKIII N420P (42oldPoops)
>
>
>At 08:29 AM 4/26/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong"
> ><tophera@centurytel.net>
> >
> >The cubcrafters website seams correct to me. I am curious to hear the
> >reasoning behind the pattern used by the high powered FSII guys. Your
> >thoughts below track mine exactly, the farther forward you put the VGs
the
> >more they should work to delay separation (stall).
> >
> >Since the Kolbs have a fairly low aspect ratio, untapered wing, they
don't
> >have a tendency to drop a tip, so I would just place all the VGs at the
> >optimum location to get the aero benefits from them. If there is a
pattern
> >it must be to make the inboard VGs less effective to make sure that the
> >inboard end stalls first. If you do use any staggered pattern, I think
it
> >is something that you should thoroughly understand and carefully test,
since
> >the pattern could very easily make the wing much worse (Like only putting
> >VGs inboard... that could be a disaster, which is why having VGs fall off
is
> >actually kinda dangerous. If only a couple on one outboard wing panel
came
> >off, you would have an auto spin machine.) It would be a shame to take
the
> >docile Kolb stall and turn it into a stall and spinner!
> >
> >Topher
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rex Rodebush
> >To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Kolb-List: FSII vortex generators
> >
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <rrodebush@tema.net>
> >
> >Richard,
> >
> >Now I'm really confused!
> >
> >Take a look at the Cubcrafters web site and look under mods and parts.
> >They show VG's on a supercub with the VG's located forward towards the
> >L.E. out on the tips in front of the ailerons. They say that is to make
> >sure the root stalls first & that you have aileron control through the
> >stall. You have located them just the opposite.
> >
> >I assumed that at a high angel of attack you would want the VG's located
> >closer to the L.E. in front of the ailerons so that they would start
> >working before separation. The air would already separate ahead of the
> >VG's at the root.
> >
> >Am I thinking about this wrong? Can any of the aerodynamic guys explain
> >this??
> >
> >Rex Rodebush
> >
> >"From: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
> >Subject: Kolb-List: FSII vortex generators
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
> >
> >Got the pictures on the web page of the vg placement on the FSII."
> >
> >
>
>
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rusty" <13brv3c@bellsouth.net>
Greetings Welding Farmer :-)
I'm by no means a welding expert, but I would be glad to play one on TV if
there's money in it, maybe Junkyard Wars will come back on the air :-)
It's my understanding that the historically accepted method to weld 4130 is
with gas. That's still a great way to do it, particularly if that's all you
have access to. Gas welding equipment is cheap, and easy to find. It's
supposed to be easy to use as well, but I found TIG much easier personally.
MIG (higher form of wire feed) is good for professionals, but not so good
for amateurs. From what I understand, it's easy to make a nice looking
weld, that isn't strong at all, so it take a professional to do it right.
BTW, this is what they were using at the old Kolb, down in the dungeon :-)
TIG is an excellent method, and is also great for aluminum. Since I need to
weld aluminum more often than steel, I bought a TIG machine. The downside
is the cost of the equipment, and consumables. There are also those who say
you need to need to "normalize" steel with a torch after TIG or MIG welding,
to "relieve the stress". This is highly debatable, and I don't personally
believe it. Probably does more harm than good IMHO.
Cheers,
Rusty (Slingshot still sitting naked in the garage)
----------------
Hey comrades of the wild blue yonder. What is the recommended type of
welder to use for welding 4130 chrome moly? A stick welder would not be a
very good choice, so how about TIG, wire feed, or gas. What's the best
one to use?
The Flying Farmer (with broken gear sockets)
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Steve Garvelink" <link@cdc.net>
Ed,
After looking at your pictures on the list would like to know how you
make the cover piece between the wings. It looks like aluminum.
Steve Garvelink
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward
Steuber
Subject: Kolb-List: wiggles
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Edward Steuber"
<esteuber@rochester.rr.com>
OOPS....the date on the photo share is Sept 18 2004 ... Edward
Steuber...for the photo share pictures...
Ed in Western NY
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com
In a message dated 4/26/2005 8:08:12 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Dwight.Kottke@hti.htch.com writes:
Hey comrades of the wild blue yonder. What is the recommended type of
welder to use for welding 4130 chrome moly? A stick welder would not be a
very good choice, so how about TIG, wire feed, or gas. What's the best
one to use?
The Flying Farmer (with broken gear sockets)
TIG. No sparks [hardley]; won't burn the covering on your cage. Don't
remember; did you check if you have the new longer gear legs??
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
Dwight,
I would tell you how long Ive been welding, But that would make me sound
like a smart - _ _ _ _. It is my experience That Tig is the purest and
strongest form of welding if it is done properly. You just need to have the
proper filler rod. Lincoln can tell you the best rods to use there are at least
3
that are acceptable. The new kolb would probably be glad to tell you. Mig
would be an acceptable 2nd choice. If I had my way It would all be tig It
just takes more time. Hope this helps.
Ed ( in houston).
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List:447 break in |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
In a message dated 4/26/2005 9:28:32 A.M. Central Standard Time,
ulflyer@verizon.net writes:
The reason they put extra oil in the oil injection engines like the 503 and
582 for the first couple hours is only for a safety measure until it can be
determined that the oil injection is properly working.
Jerb,
Thanks for your reply. I realize the reason why injected engines put 50/1
in their fuel the first tank, But if the injector is working properly that
equates to 25/1. My thinking is that if it that wont hurt a injected engine
the first tank, how would it hurt a non-injected 447?
Ed (in Hou)
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
MR. FArmer...
Tig is the best...and easiest for me. I have a Millermatic 210 wire feed
machine which I used to repair a bent Kolb cage, So I know how tuff it is to
use a wire feed machine on such small stuff...it is possible, but more
difficult than a TIG machine.
ANy professional welder will tell you that for the most accurate work when
time in production is of no concern, that the TIG process is the way to go.
Don Gherardini
FireFly 098
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List:447 break in |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
You want some friction to get the rings to seat - too much oil may slow
that process down. You could go a little more oil but it shouldn't be
necessary. In the case of oil injection you need to run it enough to
verify that the oil injection is working - it only serves as a safe guard
in the event it proves not to be working, sometimes on initial installs
bubbles or kinked tubing can hamper oil flow. In the case of the 447,
that's not the case. Also keep in mind that only at more extreme throttle
settings would larger amounts of oil be injected and then at that higher
RPM it should blow out most of the excess oil.
jerb
At 07:20 PM 4/26/05 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
>
>
>In a message dated 4/26/2005 9:28:32 A.M. Central Standard Time,
>ulflyer@verizon.net writes:
>
>
>The reason they put extra oil in the oil injection engines like the 503 and
>582 for the first couple hours is only for a safety measure until it can be
>determined that the oil injection is properly working.
>
>
>Jerb,
> Thanks for your reply. I realize the reason why injected engines put
> 50/1
>in their fuel the first tank, But if the injector is working properly that
>equates to 25/1. My thinking is that if it that wont hurt a injected engine
>the first tank, how would it hurt a non-injected 447?
>
> Ed (in Hou)
>
>
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ElleryWeld@aol.com
Tig weld it is the best way, make sure you have the correct wire and
shielding gas for the 4130 tubing
Rebuilding Original Firestar in Maine
Cant wait till its done I need a break from this planet
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Ellery Batchelder Jr
Levant Welding
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
Miller makes a small 120VAC powered unit that works well for chrome moly
tubing. It works well for this function and is nice unit being its is
small and light weight 13.7# making it very portable. Very handy unit. It
outputs DC only so does not accommodate welding aluminum. Cost is around
$1000 bucks or less, check the internet prices.
jerb
At 06:15 PM 4/26/05 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 4/26/2005 8:08:12 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>Dwight.Kottke@hti.htch.com writes:
>Hey comrades of the wild blue yonder. What is the recommended type of
>welder to use for welding 4130 chrome moly? A stick welder would not be a
>very good choice, so how about TIG, wire feed, or gas. What's the best
>one to use?
>
>
>The Flying Farmer (with broken gear sockets)
>
>
>TIG. No sparks [hardley]; won't burn the covering on your cage. Don't
>remember; did you check if you have the new longer gear legs??
>
>Howard Shackleford
>FS II
>SC
>
>
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|