Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:11 AM - Re: MV (PATRICK LADD)
2. 05:01 AM - Re: MV (Kirk Smith)
3. 07:22 AM - Re: MV (W Boyter)
4. 07:40 AM - Re: MV (John Hauck)
5. 06:54 PM - Firestar 2 Vortex Generator Tests (David L. Bigelow)
6. 07:40 PM - Re: Firestar 2 Vortex Generator Tests (Richard Pike)
Message 1
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Today I went round and round with the bosses at work, and they flat refuse
to give me the time off >
Hard luck Lar,
sounds as though it is time to try the ploy of the guy who called in sick so
many times they finally refused to give him time off.
So he called in `dead`.
Cheers
Pat
--
Message 2
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
----- > Today I went round and round with the bosses at work, and they flat
refuse
> to give me the time off >
>
> Hard luck Lar,
I know the frustration. I was once scheduled for a week vacation in
Australia from a crappy job I had overseas. Then I absorbed a piece of
metalic material in my leg, then got bit by a bug that dern neer kilt me. By
the time I got out of the hospital the Australia thing was gone with the
wind. Life is like a box of chocolates..........;>)
Do not archive
Message 3
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "W Boyter" <boyter@mcsi.net>
I will will fill that empty left seat?
Wayne
kolb mark 111
400 hrs.
Roseburg, OR
P.S. I will be plane less.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: MV
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> | I sure hate to send this email.
> | Larry Bourne
>
> Larry B/Gang:
>
> Always next year.
>
> Gonna miss ya. And..............I had an empty left seat too! ;-)
>
> john h
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
|
| Wayne
Hi Wayne/Gang:
Great!
There is never any trouble getting folks to fly with at MV. I think
John Williamson holds a record on number of different passengers flown
there, but I plan to give him a run for his money this year if we can
keep the MKIII from running out of fuel. ;-)
I checked the weather, best I could, and it looks good for MV, plus
flying planned for after MV.
Hope to be there by Thursday, 19 May, exactly one week from today.
Guess I better get my bag packed.
Take care,
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 5
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| Subject: | Firestar 2 Vortex Generator Tests |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow" <dlbigelow@verizon.net>
Just finished a morning's test flying with a set of Harrison Designs VG's installed
on my Firestar. They definitely work - the stall speed is noticeably reduced.
I installed them at 3 inch intervals at the 11% chord position (6 5/8 inches from
LE). It took a total of 48 for each wing.
The aircraft with VG's can be flown precisely right up to the stall. The stall
speed without VG's was 35 mph, and with VG's is 30 mph. The Firestar wing without
VG's doesn't really have a pronounced break at the stall. It ends up in
a mush mode, and you run out of back stick trying to hold the nose up. It flies
pretty sloppy near the stall, and is pretty "bullet proof" as to inadvertently
entering a spin.
With VG's, the stall is more conventional, and has a pronounced break - much like
laminar flow airfoil sailplanes. I did straight ahead and 30 degree banked
stalls, power on and off. With power on, there is a bit of prop burbling just
before the stall. Power off does not have any warning. When it reaches the
stall speed, it just breaks. Straight ahead stalls break cleanly without any
tendency to fall off on a wing. When banked (left or right), and the break occurs,
there is a mild rolloff in the direction opposite to the original bank.
I got the distinct impression that you could get it to spin pretty easily, but
did not explore that realm of flight.
The overall handling with VG's is improved. The aircraft feels more stable and
solid. I was able to do controlled slow flight at 32 mph with gentle turns.
I have not previously been able to fly precisely that near the stall with my
Firestar. At cruise speed near 50 mph, it appears to take an extra 100-200 rpm
from the Rotax 503 compared to without the VG's. That's not much difference,
but guess you can't get something for nothing.
Take off distance is very little changed, but that is because the angle of attack
is geometry limited by the main gear length and tail wheel height. I didn't
notice much difference in climb rate, but did not measure it before and after
VG's precisely. I did notice a positive difference on approach and landing.
The air was still, and I flew approach at 40 mph. On flare, it appears to float
more, and I believe the "Kolb Kuit (quit)" is much reduced. Also, the Firestar
with VG's is easier to control precisely during the landing. You are able
to touch down with the tailwheel first if you hold it off just above the runway.
My overall impression is a plus, and I'm going to leave the VG's on the wings.
I'd recommend that low time pilots not install VG's on the Firestar until getting
50 or 100 hours of time in the aircraft. After installation, do a lot of
slow flight and stalls. Realize that you will have to pay closer attention to
your airspeed in the traffic pattern than before. A Firestar with VG's is not
as forgiving as the stock airplane.
Hope this is helpful to Firestar drivers,
Dave Bigelow
FS2
Kamuela, HI
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar 2 Vortex Generator Tests |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Excellent analysis, that is the sort of pilot report that is worth a lot.
Thank you.
Since our FSII is pretty heavy, our results are a bit different than yours
in a couple areas - our stall speed is 5 mph higher across the board. The
overall impression of the airplane is that it is more "precise" at slow
speeds. It does not feel as vague just prior to the stall, it remains
precise right up until it is ready to let go. Like you, we get a real
break, it flies better in slow flight until it is all done, and then when
it it quits, it quits.
Unlike yours, when we stall in a bank, it falls off in the direction you
are already going, there is no tendency to go back the other way. No idea
why the difference. In our later tests, we did notice that if you only put
vg's on the outboard half of each wing, although you get a higher stall
speed, you do get a very "safe" stall, the center section always stalls
first, and the tips always keep flying after the center section is stalled.
Also, without vg's on the inboard section, the prop burble is much more
pronounced, it is a stall warning that you would have to be deaf and
unconscious to miss.
We did not notice needing extra power at cruise, but since we are using a
582, who knows?
We picked up about 200'/minute climb with vg's, but that may be because we
are now flying at a slower and steeper angle of attack than before?
I am not sure I agree with your idea that low time pilots hold off on vg's
- assuming that a low time pilot is unconscious about stalls and unaware
of inadvertently getting close to a stall on final, then yes. But if the
pilot is already able to focus on airspeed control on final and maintain a
proper airspeed, then vg's are a plus all around.
I was the first one to fly our FSII, and initially, I did not care for it.
Compared to my MKIII, it was vague and sort of "clumsy", it felt
comparatively unwieldy. It was ok, but not anything I really enjoyed
flying. In it's current configuration, with vg's and properly trimmed (it
wanted to nose up a lot, to counter act that, we had to droop the ailerons.
We ended up raising the leading edge of the horizontal stab 3/4" and that
allowed us to get rid of the droop of the ailerons) it is precise and
agile, and I enjoy it. I wish there was some way to define how much of that
is an actual improvement in the airplane and how much is me getting used to
it. Subjective impressions are very deceptive and not always to be trusted.
That is why Norm's evaluation of my MKIII at last year's Kolb homecoming
was so important to me. Hopefully I can get one of the Kolb professionals
to fly our FSII at this years homecoming and give us an objective opinion.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
At 03:53 PM 5/12/2005 -1000, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow" <dlbigelow@verizon.net>
>
>
>Just finished a morning's test flying with a set of Harrison Designs VG's
>installed on my Firestar. They definitely work - the stall speed is
>noticeably reduced.
>
>I installed them at 3 inch intervals at the 11% chord position (6 5/8
>inches from LE). It took a total of 48 for each wing.
>
>The aircraft with VG's can be flown precisely right up to the stall. The
>stall speed without VG's was 35 mph, and with VG's is 30 mph. The
>Firestar wing without VG's doesn't really have a pronounced break at the
>stall. It ends up in a mush mode, and you run out of back stick trying to
>hold the nose up. It flies pretty sloppy near the stall, and is pretty
>"bullet proof" as to inadvertently entering a spin.
>
>With VG's, the stall is more conventional, and has a pronounced break -
>much like laminar flow airfoil sailplanes. I did straight ahead and 30
>degree banked stalls, power on and off. With power on, there is a bit of
>prop burbling just before the stall. Power off does not have any
>warning. When it reaches the stall speed, it just breaks. Straight ahead
>stalls break cleanly without any tendency to fall off on a wing. When
>banked (left or right), and the break occurs, there is a mild rolloff in
>the direction opposite to the original bank. I got the distinct
>impression that you could get it to spin pretty easily, but did not
>explore that realm of flight.
>
>The overall handling with VG's is improved. The aircraft feels more
>stable and solid. I was able to do controlled slow flight at 32 mph with
>gentle turns. I have not previously been able to fly precisely that near
>the stall with my Firestar. At cruise speed near 50 mph, it appears to
>take an extra 100-200 rpm from the Rotax 503 compared to without the
>VG's. That's not much difference, but guess you can't get something for
>nothing.
>
>Take off distance is very little changed, but that is because the angle of
>attack is geometry limited by the main gear length and tail wheel
>height. I didn't notice much difference in climb rate, but did not
>measure it before and after VG's precisely. I did notice a positive
>difference on approach and landing. The air was still, and I flew
>approach at 40 mph. On flare, it appears to float more, and I believe the
>"Kolb Kuit (quit)" is much reduced. Also, the Firestar with VG's is
>easier to control precisely during the landing. You are able to touch
>down with the tailwheel first if you hold it off just above the runway.
>
>My overall impression is a plus, and I'm going to leave the VG's on the
>wings. I'd recommend that low time pilots not install VG's on the
>Firestar until getting 50 or 100 hours of time in the aircraft. After
>installation, do a lot of slow flight and stalls. Realize that you will
>have to pay closer attention to your airspeed in the traffic pattern than
>before. A Firestar with VG's is not as forgiving as the stock airplane.
>
>Hope this is helpful to Firestar drivers,
>Dave Bigelow
>FS2
>Kamuela, HI
>
>
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