Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:18 AM - D-Day (Kirk Smith)
2. 08:40 AM - The Arch (Doug Wetzel)
3. 10:48 AM - Re: parts (Dwight.Kottke@hti.htch.com)
4. 02:22 PM - Father's Day Fly In at Homer's (Bob Pongracz)
5. 02:22 PM - Re: D-Day (Denny Rowe)
6. 02:54 PM - Re: ultrastar fatality photo (ray anderson)
7. 02:58 PM - Re: Father's Day Fly In at Homer's (John Hauck)
8. 03:08 PM - 1st Fly (Bob Pongracz)
9. 03:33 PM - Re: ultrastar fatality photo (Christopher Armstrong)
10. 05:00 PM - Re: ultrastar fatality photo (ray anderson)
11. 05:36 PM - Re: ultrastar fatality photo (robert bean)
12. 06:12 PM - Flying Car (possums)
13. 09:53 PM - Re: D-Day (Flycrazy8@aol.com)
Message 1
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
On this day I salute you brave men of my Father's generation that hit the the beaches
of Normandy, France. ' Je Me Souvien ' I will remember............
Do not archive
Message 2
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Doug Wetzel" <dougwe@comcast.net>
The arch in question in John's pix of Arches National Park is called
Delicate Arch. It's the one on the Utah Centennial license plates.
I've been threatening to come down and camp with you guys since the MV trips
started and haven't quite made it yet. Disneyland got in the way this
year....bad planning on my part...
Doug Wetzel
SLC, Utah.
Message 3
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12:47:09 PM,
Serialize complete at 06/06/2005 12:47:09 PM,
Itemize by SMTP Server on HUDOMGW1/HTI(Release 6.5.4|March 27, 2005) at
06/06/2005
12:47:24 PM,
Serialize by Router on HUDOMGW1/HTI(Release 6.5.4|March 27, 2005) at 06/06/2005
12:47:27 PM,
Serialize complete at 06/06/2005 12:47:27 PM
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Dwight.Kottke@hti.htch.com
Herb, please supply me with more information. Its time for some fresh
pistons.
Dwight Kottke
do not archive
Herb Gayheart <herbgh@juno.com>
Sent by: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
06/03/2005 09:36 AM
Please respond to
kolb-list@matronics.com
To
kolb-list@matronics.com
cc
Subject
Re: Kolb-List: parts
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb Gayheart <herbgh@juno.com>
Group
Not Olenik---but I have some std , green dot 377 pistons and rings and
head gaskets for sale. New. Also extra set of std 377 rings. 503
head and base gaskets also. Herb in Ky
Message 4
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| Subject: | Father's Day Fly In at Homer's |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob Pongracz" <pongoflyer@myway.com>
Terry, Just confirming my arrival to Homer's (and the spelling on my name).do
not archive Bob PongraczFogelsville, PAFirefly project
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web - http://dell.myway.com
Message 5
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
This day, and every day.
SALUTE! and God Bless all of you Vets.
Denny Rowe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: D-Day
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
>
> On this day I salute you brave men of my Father's generation that hit the
> the beaches of Normandy, France. ' Je Me Souvien ' I will
> remember............
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> --
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: ultrastar fatality photo |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
To all,
I have just returned, with another very experienced home builder,
from viewing and examining close up the wreckage of the UltraStar. I can say emphatically,
there was no in flight wing fold. Both attachment points were still
securely welded to the proper point on the cage. The left one still had half
of the strut attached, with no evidence of fracture anywhere around the weld
. The strut had broken in two about half way up. The strut attach bolt was still
in place on the right fitting but the strut end had pulled out of the fitting,
with the flat end of the strut sheared straight out of the fitting. The
bolt make a nice clean shear path through the flat end. The split or sheared path
in the end was clean and quite obviously came from an enormous tearing force
pulling straight out. The entire wreckage exhibits the sign of an unbelievably
tremendous impact with the ground. It seems to have exploded into many pieces.
It had to have come in with high engine power. C
ontrary
to some first reports, most weld joints seemed to still be intact. They may not
have had the finished cosmetic appearance that some of the purist welders create,
but I didn't see anything that would have kept me from flying it. As to
the landing gear fix that seems to have upset some. I saw it Sat. morning when
I attended the flyin. It was what some would call a quick and dirty fix. Yes
it was just that, but I would have felt comfortable landing it with this temporary
fix . Mr.Pimm had had a bad landing just a couple of days before and had
planned to fly to the flyin with the Kolb and didn't have time or chance to
make the accepted weld repair. He and an experienced friend made the temporary
quick fix in a manner and with materials they felt comfortable with as standing
regular landing forces and a trip to the flyin and return. There was nothing
about it that posed an in flight structural failure or any thing that could
get into a prop. The heavy steel "splint" was secure
ly
bolted to the cage and the three heavy stainless screw clamps were more than capable
of handling the landing loads. Sure, it was ugly and was a good point for
criticism by someone not knowing the particulars of the fix and why. Cut the
guy some slack on that.
I believe there are quite a few of you out there who have demolished Kolb
landing gear, including UltraStars. I believe one high time Kolb driver confessed
to making a quick and dirty fix on a muffler with either safety wire or
was it baling wire, so he could proceed to his destination. What do you think
the comments would have been if he had dropped in on this flyin and some had
looked at it not knowing the circumstances?
The lack of a center section cover undoubtedly increased stall speed,
but some guys fly them that way. I won't. The consensus now around here generally
is pilot error. Inattention and perhaps unawareness of the UltraStar's propensity
to fall of and spin in a power on stall. At 200 ft. an inexperienced pilot
( just a few hours in the Kolb) really didn't have a chance to correct. I
feel confident the Kolb record of never having had inflight failures still stands.
Larry Bourne <biglar@gogittum.com> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne"
General disregard for condition...............?? That guy did that "repair"
?? To an airplane ?? Then flew it ?? Migawd ! ! ! It boggles me mind, it
does. Astonished Lar. Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Perkins" <2scott@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: ultrastar fatality photo
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Scott Perkins <2scott@bellsouth.net>
>
>
> regarding the structural failure resulting in death last week, here is
> an image I was able to carve out of a photo of the specific plane
> illustrating a general disregard for condition...
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Father's Day Fly In at Homer's |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Terry/Gang:
Will have to take a rain check on Homer's Flyin this year. Maybe
next.
Hope all have a safe flight and a beautiful day to share with the
gentleman that started all this.
john h
MKIII/912ULS
Titus, Alabama
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 8
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob Pongracz" <pongoflyer@myway.com>
Hi all, I had noticed some time ago a discussion on Kolb serial numbers...so I
though I'd check the number on the FF project that I'm trying to get together.
Needless to say, I was a bit surprised to see "UL 001" stamped onto the rear
of the fuselage! I bought the plane from Dennis Souder, who had told me that it
was a factory demo plane, but I had no idea it was the first Firefly. It's a
bit intimidating - a small piece of Kolb history. It had made the airshow circuits
as the Firefly was introduced. Originally, I was hoping to fly it to Homer's
on the 18th, but life has to go on it's still airframe pieces in the hangar.
Hopefully, by the end of the summer, it will be airborne with a new lease
on life. I'll keep the list posted when the first flight happens.do not archive
Regards,Bob PongraczFogelsville, PAFF #001 project
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web - http://dell.myway.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | ultrastar fatality photo |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" <tophera@centurytel.net>
The strut attach bolt was still in place on the right fitting but the strut
end had pulled out of the fitting, with the flat end of the strut sheared
straight out of the fitting. The bolt make a nice clean shear path through
the flat end. The split or sheared path in the end was clean and quite
obviously came from an enormous tearing force pulling straight out.
This sounds exactly like what I would expect from an in flight failure of
the lift strut end... a purely tension failure, and not what I would
generally expect from ground impact forces, where the wing would be thrown
forward and down relative to the fuselage if the fuselage hit first (which
would break the lift strut in half due to compression just like described
for the left wing.)
If the right wing hit first while in a diving right spiral and you landed on
the right wing tip then you could drive the wing aft and up, which could
result in a nearly pure shear failure of the lift strut end.
How are you determining the cause of the right wing strut end failure based
on a post flight examination? You need to look at how the rest of the
aircraft structure failed, then you may be able to determine the attitude
and rates that the plane was experiencing on impact, and the order in which
the failures occurred.
Very well may be a stall spin accident, but from your description I don't
see how you are ruling out an in flight lift strut failure.
Topher
Message 10
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| Subject: | ultrastar fatality photo |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
Christopher,
Explain to me how on a dead calm morning, a strut that has been
static and flight tested to 6 g+ loadings and never failed, could suddenly
in level flight or slightly banked, be subjected to loads that could rip the
4130 steel insert in the end of the strut out of the cage fitting and it's 1/4
in. bolt. With my eyes and holding it in my hand, I saw a path cut in the strut
end as even as if cut out with a saw. I won't even try to guess the G force
needed to do this to a double thickness 4130 piece of tubing. No it was not rusty.
An aircraft at cruise throttle or perhaps a little more, hitting the ground
at a nose down position, could develop that even from 200 feet. The force
was so great that a seat belt and shoulder harness were broken like tissue. The
force was enough to decapitate the pilot with a small cable that got around
his neck. The force was enough so that the heads of the bolts holding the small
relatively light weight Mikuni fuel pump were shear
ed off.
The force was enough so that the very strong Kolb 4130 steel tubing cage looked
like it had exploded, broken and torn, not bent and twisted like the usual crash.
Tell me please how this kind of force could be generated flying at probably
55 mph, in calm early morning air. Only when striking the ground at a nose
first attitude with estimated cruise or a little more power. It took Dennis
Souder of early Kolb Co. numerous loops pulling increase G's each time, deliberately,
to finally fold a wing. I believe this is the only recorded or known
record of a Kolb structure failure in flight. Level flight in calm air is not
going to do it, and don't say it had to be a defective strut end. I have built
six experimental licensed homebuilts in my time, including one Kolb UltraStar,
held the strut end in my hand, know what it should look like and I know this
end was pulled out of the lower fitting by G loads never encountered in flight
at 55 mph.
Christopher Armstrong <tophera@centurytel.net> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong"
The strut attach bolt was still in place on the right fitting but the strut
end had pulled out of the fitting, with the flat end of the strut sheared
straight out of the fitting. The bolt make a nice clean shear path through
the flat end. The split or sheared path in the end was clean and quite
obviously came from an enormous tearing force pulling straight out.
This sounds exactly like what I would expect from an in flight failure of
the lift strut end... a purely tension failure, and not what I would
generally expect from ground impact forces, where the wing would be thrown
forward and down relative to the fuselage if the fuselage hit first (which
would break the lift strut in half due to compression just like described
for the left wing.)
If the right wing hit first while in a diving right spiral and you landed on
the right wing tip then you could drive the wing aft and up, which could
result in a nearly pure shear failure of the lift strut end.
How are you determining the cause of the right wing strut end failure based
on a post flight examination? You need to look at how the rest of the
aircraft structure failed, then you may be able to determine the attitude
and rates that the plane was experiencing on impact, and the order in which
the failures occurred.
Very well may be a stall spin accident, but from your description I don't
see how you are ruling out an in flight lift strut failure.
Topher
---------------------------------
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out!
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: ultrastar fatality photo |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
I vote stall-spin-boom!
-BB do not archive
On 6, Jun 2005, at 7:59 PM, ray anderson wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
>
> Christopher,
> Explain to me how on a dead calm morning, a strut
> that has been static and flight tested to 6 g+ loadings and never
> failed, could suddenly in level flight or slightly banked, be
> subjected to loads that could rip the 4130 steel insert in the end of
> the strut out of the cage obviously came from an enormous tearing
> force pulling straight out.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it
> out!
>
>
Message 12
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
Discovery Channel - Now - 9:00 PM on East Coast
Jesse Builds a Flying Car - gootta see this.
Message 13
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Flycrazy8@aol.com
I too salute all our D-Day Vets......My dad was in the third wave at Utah
Beach as part of the Army's 4th Division . We owe all those that took part
sincere gratitude for taking out the Sadamm Hussien of our day.
Stephen
BamaGa Firefly
Do Not Archive
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