Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:52 AM - Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying (David L. Bigelow)
2. 04:44 AM - Non Kolb Down (Edward Steuber)
3. 05:07 AM - Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying (Dale Sellers)
4. 05:18 AM - Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying (Ralph)
5. 05:35 AM - Re: Non Kolb Down (Rayfield, Bill)
6. 05:51 AM - Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying (Richard Pike)
7. 06:18 AM - Re: Using an Electric starter (Dickk9@aol.com)
8. 06:49 AM - Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying (Jack & Louise Hart)
9. 07:12 AM - Re: Recent Kolb Trip (Dave & Eve Pelletier)
10. 07:24 AM - Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying (Dave & Eve Pelletier)
11. 07:30 AM - Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying (ray anderson)
12. 07:40 AM - Re: Recent Kolb Trip (PATRICK LADD)
13. 08:17 AM - Re: Recent Kolb Trip (Edward Chmielewski)
14. 08:19 AM - Re: Non Kolb Down (robert bean)
15. 08:57 AM - Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying (Richard Pike)
16. 10:01 AM - Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying (Jack & Louise Hart)
17. 12:35 PM - Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying (ray anderson)
18. 01:28 PM - Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying (Steve Garvelink)
19. 01:45 PM - Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying (ray anderson)
20. 03:09 PM - Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying (Steve Garvelink)
21. 03:35 PM - Re: Recent Kolb Trip (Steve Kroll)
22. 03:49 PM - Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying (nmatthew)
23. 05:31 PM - Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying (Richard Swiderwski)
24. 06:04 PM - Re: Recent Kolb Trip (russ kinne)
25. 06:06 PM - Re: Recent Kolb Trip (Bill Vincent)
26. 07:43 PM - Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying (ray anderson)
27. 08:23 PM - boom failure (woody)
28. 08:55 PM - Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying (Ron)
29. 09:59 PM - Re: Recent Kolb Trip (Steve Kroll)
30. 11:51 PM - Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (dralle@matronics.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow" <dlbigelow@verizon.net>
Lots of highly experienced Kolb flyers on this list. I'd like to hear some opinions
on how strong the surface wind must be to deter you from setting up and
taking a recreational flight around the local area. Of course there is going
to be a difference between the 447 powered Firefly, and a 912 equipped Mark III
(wing loading).
How about posting your personal wind guidelines and the type of Kolb you are flying?
Dave Bigelow
FS 2, 503 DCDI
Kamuela, Hawaii
Message 2
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Edward Steuber" <esteuber@rochester.rr.com>
Jerb,
The CGS Hawk has 1 known accident involving a tail boom separation at the
engine mount bulkhead. It was an early model with lots of prior "aleged"abuse
and witnesses saw black residue and loose rivets at the break...maybe some bad
landings ? It is in CGS's builders literature.
I have a wrecked CGS Hawk I am rebuilding (ready to cover with ceconite)
and purchased a new boom tube last fall. I now know why it was not rebuilt
because the boom tube with bulkheads installed is $1260 less freight. The bulkheads
are riveted and epoxied on all the new aircraft from the factory in Ohio.
Now to keep this Kolb related I have a question. Are there any known failures
of boom tubes or wing spars in any Kolbs ...? The CGS Hawk does not have
the Kolb 4130 steel H-section internally mounted and riveted inside the boom
and I believe is the reason for the Kolb strength and good record.
Anybody with an engineering degree care to expound on this topic...?
Ed in Western NY
HEY BB ! You one of them effeminate types that wears jewelry when
you fly ?....."Cool" jewelry might be OK though ...
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dale Sellers" <dsel1@bellsouth.net>
Aloha Dave,
I fly an UltraStar which is comparable to your ship. It's hard to nail down
wind limits. If the wind is down the runway and constant, I don't mind a 25
mph wind but, If its gusty, I might decide to tru another time. If it is a
cross or quartering wind and gusty, a 10 mph wind can be hard to handle.
These machines are very affected by gusty wind. It blows them around like a
leaf. I would imagine that being out there in the middle of the Pacific,
you are always dealing with wind. All I can suggest is start off with mild
or no wind and work your way up to conditions that you feel comfortable
with. Experience level would play a major part in your limits and it would
be differend for every pilot. Experience and common sense are your friends.
That's the best advice I can give.
My $.02 worth.
Dale Sellers
Georgia UltraStar
----- Original Message -----
From: "David L. Bigelow" <dlbigelow@verizon.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow"
> <dlbigelow@verizon.net>
>
> Lots of highly experienced Kolb flyers on this list. I'd like to hear
> some opinions on how strong the surface wind must be to deter you from
> setting up and taking a recreational flight around the local area. Of
> course there is going to be a difference between the 447 powered Firefly,
> and a 912 equipped Mark III (wing loading).
>
> How about posting your personal wind guidelines and the type of Kolb you
> are flying?
>
> Dave Bigelow
> FS 2, 503 DCDI
> Kamuela, Hawaii
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph" <ul15rhb@juno.com>
Dave and others,
I used to fly in some pretty good winds of 25 mph. Just a couple of years ago I
took off in 20 mph winds and encountered 48 mph winds at 1700'. It took me a
half hour to fly 6 miles. I had fun flying backwards that day when I backed off
the throttle. It was weird to fly crosswind in a track looking over my shoulder
when the nose of the plane was pointed toward the wind. I didn't know the
winds would be that strong at altitude that day, but I did know that I would be
able to land directly into it when my short flight was over that day.
In later years, I pick my days and will not fly in winds over 20 mph. Since I have
an early Firestar, the wing loading is very light and I get bounced around
the sky quite a bit in heavy winds. So now I fly in fairly light winds under
10 mph. Last weekend I flew 130 miles in winds that were in the 10-15 mph range
and that was enough for me. It's not fun to be bounced all over when I'm doing
it for enjoyment. I would rather leave the plane in the garage and take the
motorcycle out for a ride on those windy days.
Ralph
Original Firestar
18 years flying it
-- "David L. Bigelow" <dlbigelow@verizon.net> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow" <dlbigelow@verizon.net>
Lots of highly experienced Kolb flyers on this list. I'd like to hear some opinions
on how strong the surface wind must be to deter you from setting up and
taking a recreational flight around the local area. Of course there is going
to be a difference between the 447 powered Firefly, and a 912 equipped Mark III
(wing loading).
How about posting your personal wind guidelines and the type of Kolb you are flying?
Dave Bigelow
FS 2, 503 DCDI
Kamuela, Hawaii
Get Juno Platinum for as low as $6.95/month!
Visit http://www.juno.com/bestoffer to sign up today!
Message 5
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rayfield, Bill" <brayfield@kcc.com>
I am not sure how the CGS boom is fastened to the cage, so I can not
comment much on its design. From your comments though, it sounds
somewhat inferior to the Kolb method. The H bracket weldments not only
brace the tube (in the vertical direction, most important), but spread
the loads from the butt ring down the top and bottom surfaces of the
tube. This greatly reduces the localized stresses in the material and on
each fastener.
Yes, I'm an engineer, but it doesn't take book learnin' to see that this
method would be stronger than a strictly cantilever design.
Bill Rayfield
Ultrastar
#001 Kolbra kit (for sale)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward
Steuber
Subject: Kolb-List: Non Kolb Down
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Edward Steuber"
<esteuber@rochester.rr.com>
Jerb,
The CGS Hawk has 1 known accident involving a tail boom
separation at the engine mount bulkhead. It was an early model with lots
of prior "aleged"abuse and witnesses saw black residue and loose rivets
at the break...maybe some bad landings ? It is in CGS's builders
literature.
I have a wrecked CGS Hawk I am rebuilding (ready to cover with
ceconite) and purchased a new boom tube last fall. I now know why it
was not rebuilt because the boom tube with bulkheads installed is $1260
less freight. The bulkheads are riveted and epoxied on all the new
aircraft from the factory in Ohio.
Now to keep this Kolb related I have a question. Are there any
known failures of boom tubes or wing spars in any Kolbs ...? The CGS
Hawk does not have the Kolb 4130 steel H-section internally mounted and
riveted inside the boom and I believe is the reason for the Kolb
strength and good record.
Anybody with an engineering degree care to expound on this
topic...?
Ed in Western NY
HEY BB ! You one of them effeminate types that wears
jewelry when you fly ?....."Cool" jewelry might be OK though ...
do not archive
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged,
confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure
under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly
by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy.
Thank you.
==============================================================================
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Depends on the terrain you are flying in. A twenty mile wind in flat
country is not bad but a 15 mile wind in the mountains of E Tennessee can
be a real eye opener. Especially since all the ridges locally run SW-NE. If
the wind is out of the south west, up to 15 is tolerable, because then the
wind flows with the terrain. If it is out of the south east at more than
10, it is at 90% to the ridges, it starts rotoring across all the ridges
and mountains, and accumulating unsettled energy in the process. Then it is
not worth the trouble, do like Ralph said, go motorcycle riding.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
525 empty weight, Rotax 582
At 10:51 PM 6/30/2005 -1000, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow" <dlbigelow@verizon.net>
>
>Lots of highly experienced Kolb flyers on this list. I'd like to hear
>some opinions on how strong the surface wind must be to deter you from
>setting up and taking a recreational flight around the local area. Of
>course there is going to be a difference between the 447 powered Firefly,
>and a 912 equipped Mark III (wing loading).
>
>How about posting your personal wind guidelines and the type of Kolb you
>are flying?
>
>Dave Bigelow
>FS 2, 503 DCDI
>Kamuela, Hawaii
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Using an Electric starter |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Dickk9@aol.com
Anything in the 1N400X series
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
At 10:51 PM 6/30/05 -1000, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow" <dlbigelow@verizon.net>
>
>I'd like to hear some opinions on how strong the surface wind must be to deter
you from setting up and taking a recreational flight around the local area.
>
Dave,
While in Missouri, I hangared in the Mississippi River bottoms. If there
was a strong wind out of the west, I could not get the hangar doors open.
Winds coming off the bluffs create rotors and they can give you and exciting
ride. Also in the winter the air seems at times to just be rough close to
the ground.
Before I changed the ailerons and modified the aileron control linkages, I
would not fly the FireFly in winds over 10mph. The FireFly is stable and so
I did not have to worry about roll control at altitude, but I did not have
the strength to keep the wings level or side slip during gusty cross wind
approaches. After tuning the ailerons and roll control, I fly in 20 to 25
mph winds but not close to the ground. I climb to 2,500 to 3,000 feet agl
to get into smoother air. Pretty much I have had to fly in the middle of
the day when the air is most unstable. It took some getting use to. At
first it was just around the pattern and back on the ground. Then it was
two times around etc., until I could stay up 15 to 20 minutes. Slowly I
learned to cope with the rough air.
At first it bothered me to pass to and from altitude because of the bobbing
up and down and rolling from right to left. But after the modifications,
all it takes is slight sideways stick pressure to keep the wings level, and
I don't mind the bobbing up and down. The bobbing can be severe and I have
found that if my back remains in contact with the seat I remain comfortable.
I use twin shoulder belts, hip and crotch belts cinched up so that as the
FireFly dances on the bubble, I do not feel myself moving relative the
FireFly.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Recent Kolb Trip |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" <pelletier@cableone.net>
Agree wholeheartedly. I love to read about trips folks have taken.
AzDave
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Carr" <DECarr@direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Recent Kolb Trip
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: David Carr <DECarr@direcway.com>
>
> In my humble opinion, the trip reports are the best part of this group and
> are great filler for the list between times when someone has a question or
> a
> solution.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" <pelletier@cableone.net>
Dave,
MkIII - 582. I'm kind of a "fair weather" guy. Don't know exactly what
kind of winds I fly in, but when the wind sock is standing straight out
(15mph?) I quit. I don't like fighting things - I'm more of a "Peaceful
easy feelin's" flyer. However in Death Valley I did fly for a couple of
hours in 40mph winds at 2000'. On the deck it was 20 - 25 mph but I knew I
could land directly into the wind. I've never experienced cross wind
problems - always been able to handle it with no problems. But my biggest
concern with winds is putting the plane back into the trailer. I usually
fold it by myself and having the wings unpinned and on the wing stand with
the wind blowing can get pretty scary. I really try to avoid this situation
and won't take the wing loose in any kind of wind unless I have someone to
hold it.
AzDave
----- Original Message -----
From: "David L. Bigelow" <dlbigelow@verizon.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow"
> <dlbigelow@verizon.net>
>
> Lots of highly experienced Kolb flyers on this list. I'd like to hear
> some opinions on how strong the surface wind must be to deter you from
> setting up and taking a recreational flight around the local area. Of
> course there is going to be a difference between the 447 powered Firefly,
> and a 912 equipped Mark III (wing loading).
>
> How about posting your personal wind guidelines and the type of Kolb you
> are flying?
>
> Dave Bigelow
> FS 2, 503 DCDI
> Kamuela, Hawaii
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
The Ultra Stars being the lightest of the pack, I think, are even more susceptible
to windy conditions than our big brothers. My first US behaved pretty much
like the examples given here in the same mentioned wind conditions. I just couldn't
get comfortable with it so I lengthened both struts to get several degrees
wing dihedral and it made a world of difference in rough air control. I didn't
notice any difference in other performance. We all remember our model airplane
building where we used plenty of dihedral unless flying radio control for
aerobatics. I haven't put dihedral in the US I now have but I'm thinking about
it.
I wonder if the little vortex generators (?) placed on the wing surface would smooth
out any of the instability?
Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike
Depends on the terrain you are flying in. A twenty mile wind in flat
country is not bad but a 15 mile wind in the mountains of E Tennessee can
be a real eye opener. Especially since all the ridges locally run SW-NE. If
the wind is out of the south west, up to 15 is tolerable, because then the
wind flows with the terrain. If it is out of the south east at more than
10, it is at 90% to the ridges, it starts rotoring across all the ridges
and mountains, and accumulating unsettled energy in the process. Then it is
not worth the trouble, do like Ralph said, go motorcycle riding.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
525 empty weight, Rotax 582
At 10:51 PM 6/30/2005 -1000, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow"
>
>Lots of highly experienced Kolb flyers on this list. I'd like to hear
>some opinions on how strong the surface wind must be to deter you from
>setting up and taking a recreational flight around the local area. Of
>course there is going to be a difference between the 447 powered Firefly,
>and a 912 equipped Mark III (wing loading).
>
>How about posting your personal wind guidelines and the type of Kolb you
>are flying?
>
>Dave Bigelow
>FS 2, 503 DCDI
>Kamuela, Hawaii
>
>
---------------------------------
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Recent Kolb Trip |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
My thread was about an update on a recent trip I had completed and had
nothing to do about someone finishing a Kolb.>>
Sorry John,
my fault. I just hit `reply` after reading the last message.
Cheers
Pat
--
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Recent Kolb Trip |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Edward Chmielewski" <edchmiel@mindspring.com>
Dale/All,
If we can't read about Kolb trips and such here, what's the point? I
say keep writing and posting about trips,
posting links to photos, building, etc.. Just MHO, kind sirs.
Ed in JXN (MI)
MkII/503
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Sellers" <dsel1@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Recent Kolb Trip
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dale Sellers" <dsel1@bellsouth.net>
>
> John and All,
> In my humble opinion, the discusions of trips are more suited to the
> matronics chat room than here.
>
> Dale Sellers
> Georgia UltraStar
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot2@comcast.net>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Recent Kolb Trip
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson"
> > <kolbrapilot2@comcast.net>
> >
> > Yes Russ, you are missing something.
> >
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Non Kolb Down |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
Only the jewels I was born with.....
I do remember reading about a boom failure on a Rans. The guy was
taking off when it failed and he aborted with no injury. They use an
external ring collar where the Kolb H goes.
-BB
do not archive
On 1, Jul 2005, at 7:41 AM, Edward Steuber wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Edward Steuber"
> <esteuber@rochester.rr.com>
>
> Jerb,
> The CGS Hawk has 1 known accident involving a tail boom
> separation at the engine mount bulkhead. It was an early model with
> lots of prior "aleged"abuse and witnesses saw black residue and loose
> rivets at the break...maybe some bad landings ? It is in CGS's
> builders literature.
> I have a wrecked CGS Hawk I am rebuilding (ready to cover with
> ceconite) and purchased a new boom tube last fall. I now know why it
> was not rebuilt because the boom tube with bulkheads installed is
> $1260 less freight. The bulkheads are riveted and epoxied on all the
> new aircraft from the factory in Ohio.
> Now to keep this Kolb related I have a question. Are there
> any known failures of boom tubes or wing spars in any Kolbs ...? The
> CGS Hawk does not have the Kolb 4130 steel H-section internally
> mounted and riveted inside the boom and I believe is the reason for
> the Kolb strength and good record.
> Anybody with an engineering degree care to expound on this
> topic...?
> Ed in Western NY
> HEY BB ! You one of them effeminate types that wears
> jewelry when you fly ?....."Cool" jewelry might be OK though ...
> do not archive
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
No apparent difference - at least not that I can tell.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 07:29 AM 7/1/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
><snip>
>I wonder if the little vortex generators (?) placed on the wing surface
>would smooth out any of the instability?
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
At 07:29 AM 7/1/05 -0700, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
>
>I wonder if the little vortex generators (?) placed on the wing surface would
smooth out any of the instability?
>
Ray,
On the FireFly I added vortex generators after I had replaced the 15 inch
chord ailerons with nine inch chord ailerons. I found VGs reduced the roll
twitchyness. They made the FireFly seem to have a much longer wing. They
increased aileron effectiveness. They have made the FireFly more
comfortable to fly in the middle of the day, and to take off and land in
cross winds.
If you would like to see how I made and installed them, they can be seen
starting at:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly17.html
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
Jack,
Thanks for sharing an incredible web site. The best data on the vortex
units I've seen and the rest of the site is a great education for any Kolber.
I recommend all take time to go through your presentations. What was your line
of work before retiring, (if you are)? You should be a great contributor to
some of the new Sport Aviation magazines looking for experimental articles.
Ray
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart
At 07:29 AM 7/1/05 -0700, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson
>
>I wonder if the little vortex generators (?) placed on the wing surface would
smooth out any of the instability?
>
Ray,
On the FireFly I added vortex generators after I had replaced the 15 inch
chord ailerons with nine inch chord ailerons. I found VGs reduced the roll
twitchyness. They made the FireFly seem to have a much longer wing. They
increased aileron effectiveness. They have made the FireFly more
comfortable to fly in the middle of the day, and to take off and land in
cross winds.
If you would like to see how I made and installed them, they can be seen
starting at:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly17.html
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
---------------------------------
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Message 18
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| Subject: | Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Steve Garvelink" <link@cdc.net>
Has anyone balanced the ailerons on there ultrastar and if so what kind
of results?
Steve Garvelink
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ray anderson
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
The Ultra Stars being the lightest of the pack, I think, are even more
susceptible to windy conditions than our big brothers. My first US
behaved pretty much like the examples given here in the same mentioned
wind conditions. I just couldn't get comfortable with it so I lengthened
both struts to get several degrees wing dihedral and it made a world of
difference in rough air control. I didn't notice any difference in other
performance. We all remember our model airplane building where we used
plenty of dihedral unless flying radio control for aerobatics. I haven't
put dihedral in the US I now have but I'm thinking about it.
I wonder if the little vortex generators (?) placed on the wing surface
would smooth out any of the instability?
Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike
Depends on the terrain you are flying in. A twenty mile wind in flat
country is not bad but a 15 mile wind in the mountains of E Tennessee
can
be a real eye opener. Especially since all the ridges locally run SW-NE.
If
the wind is out of the south west, up to 15 is tolerable, because then
the
wind flows with the terrain. If it is out of the south east at more than
10, it is at 90% to the ridges, it starts rotoring across all the ridges
and mountains, and accumulating unsettled energy in the process. Then it
is
not worth the trouble, do like Ralph said, go motorcycle riding.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
525 empty weight, Rotax 582
At 10:51 PM 6/30/2005 -1000, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow"
>
>Lots of highly experienced Kolb flyers on this list. I'd like to hear
>some opinions on how strong the surface wind must be to deter you from
>setting up and taking a recreational flight around the local area. Of
>course there is going to be a difference between the 447 powered
Firefly,
>and a 912 equipped Mark III (wing loading).
>
>How about posting your personal wind guidelines and the type of Kolb
you
>are flying?
>
>Dave Bigelow
>FS 2, 503 DCDI
>Kamuela, Hawaii
>
>
---------------------------------
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Message 19
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| Subject: | Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
Steve,
I haven't found a need to balance the ailerons on either of my Ultra
Stars but I can't speak for others who have built and flown them. I would guess
that John Hauck would have a better knowledge of that since he was one of the
pioneer builders of the Ultra Star and probably has more time than others in
them.
Steve Garvelink <link@cdc.net> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Steve Garvelink"
Has anyone balanced the ailerons on there ultrastar and if so what kind
of results?
Steve Garvelink
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ray anderson
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson
The Ultra Stars being the lightest of the pack, I think, are even more
susceptible to windy conditions than our big brothers. My first US
behaved pretty much like the examples given here in the same mentioned
wind conditions. I just couldn't get comfortable with it so I lengthened
both struts to get several degrees wing dihedral and it made a world of
difference in rough air control. I didn't notice any difference in other
performance. We all remember our model airplane building where we used
plenty of dihedral unless flying radio control for aerobatics. I haven't
put dihedral in the US I now have but I'm thinking about it.
I wonder if the little vortex generators (?) placed on the wing surface
would smooth out any of the instability?
Richard Pike wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike
Depends on the terrain you are flying in. A twenty mile wind in flat
country is not bad but a 15 mile wind in the mountains of E Tennessee
can
be a real eye opener. Especially since all the ridges locally run SW-NE.
If
the wind is out of the south west, up to 15 is tolerable, because then
the
wind flows with the terrain. If it is out of the south east at more than
10, it is at 90% to the ridges, it starts rotoring across all the ridges
and mountains, and accumulating unsettled energy in the process. Then it
is
not worth the trouble, do like Ralph said, go motorcycle riding.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
525 empty weight, Rotax 582
At 10:51 PM 6/30/2005 -1000, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow"
>
>Lots of highly experienced Kolb flyers on this list. I'd like to hear
>some opinions on how strong the surface wind must be to deter you from
>setting up and taking a recreational flight around the local area. Of
>course there is going to be a difference between the 447 powered
Firefly,
>and a 912 equipped Mark III (wing loading).
>
>How about posting your personal wind guidelines and the type of Kolb
you
>are flying?
>
>Dave Bigelow
>FS 2, 503 DCDI
>Kamuela, Hawaii
>
>
---------------------------------
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---------------------------------
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Message 20
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| Subject: | Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Steve Garvelink" <link@cdc.net>
Ray,
I am also an rc flyer and know first hand when you take the dihedral out
of a wing they spin a lot easier. The dihedral seem to make the models
a lot more stable and self righting. With enough of it you only need to
use elevator and rudder to initiate turns. Have often wondered why the
kolbs have none.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ray anderson
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
Steve,
I haven't found a need to balance the ailerons on either of my
Ultra Stars but I can't speak for others who have built and flown them.
I would guess that John Hauck would have a better knowledge of that
since he was one of the pioneer builders of the Ultra Star and probably
has more time than others in them.
Steve Garvelink <link@cdc.net> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Steve Garvelink"
Has anyone balanced the ailerons on there ultrastar and if so what kind
of results?
Steve Garvelink
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ray anderson
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson
The Ultra Stars being the lightest of the pack, I think, are even more
susceptible to windy conditions than our big brothers. My first US
behaved pretty much like the examples given here in the same mentioned
wind conditions. I just couldn't get comfortable with it so I lengthened
both struts to get several degrees wing s and it made a world of
difference in rough air control. I didn't notice any difference in other
performance. We all remember our model airplane building where we used
plenty of dihedral unless flying radio control for aerobatics. I haven't
put dihedral in the US I now have but I'm thinking about it.
I wonder if the little vortex generators (?) placed on the wing surface
would smooth out any of the instability?
Richard Pike wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike
Depends on the terrain you are flying in. A twenty mile wind in flat
country is not bad but a 15 mile wind in the mountains of E Tennessee
can
be a real eye opener. Especially since all the ridges locally run SW-NE.
If
the wind is out of the south west, up to 15 is tolerable, because then
the
wind flows with the terrain. If it is out of the south east at more than
10, it is at 90% to the ridges, it starts rotoring across all the ridges
and mountains, and accumulating unsettled energy in the process. Then it
is
not worth the trouble, do like Ralph said, go motorcycle riding.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
525 empty weight, Rotax 582
At 10:51 PM 6/30/2005 -1000, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow"
>
>Lots of highly experienced Kolb flyers on this list. I'd like to hear
>some opinions on how strong the surface wind must be to deter you from
>setting up and taking a recreational flight around the local area. Of
>course there is going to be a difference between the 447 powered
Firefly,
>and a 912 equipped Mark III (wing loading).
>
>How about posting your personal wind guidelines and the type of Kolb
you
>are flying?
>
>Dave Bigelow
>FS 2, 503 DCDI
>Kamuela, Hawaii
>
>
---------------------------------
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---------------------------------
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Recent Kolb Trip |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Steve Kroll <muso2080@yahoo.com>
<<<<He will have approved the workmanship
in progressive stages and may or may not do the first flight. He will also
>>>>
Patrick,
How does insurance work on something llike that? If the inspector was to go down
in your ship (heaven forbid), whose liability is it? It sounds like you have
to jump through a few more hoops in the U.K. than we do here. What about
crow-hopping? Will both you and the inspector be doing some of that too?
Steve
do not archive
---------------------------------
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out!
Message 22
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| Subject: | Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "nmatthew" <nmatthew@qwest.net>
Hello Dave-
My firefly is set up for rough weather, with good heavy wing loading.
Not too good for slow flight or fuel economy though. Usual take off
weight is about 540#, 40 # over gross. To me the predictability of the
surface winds and the actual prediction is as important as the current
conditions. For example here in Arizona in the summer we get thermals
and gusty weather mid morning that trails off when the sun starts
getting low. I might not take off at 9am with 10MPH gusty winds, while
15mph in the evening won't deter me, as some of the best flying includes
an Arizona sunset and I will likely have smooth air when I get close to
the hard ground again.
Matthew North
FF029 447
-----Original Message-----
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow"
<dlbigelow@verizon.net>
I'd like to hear some opinions on how strong the surface wind must be to
deter you from setting up and taking a recreational flight around the
local area.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderwski" <rswiderski@earthlink.net>
I was at a gyro flyin with my old UltraStar. They were bragging about how
well their gyros fly in the wind but none of them were flying because of the
strong wing blowing at the time. I didn't say anything & just walked over
to my trusty Kolb & taxied 50ft to the tarmac & turned into the wind. I
gave partial throttle, held the brakes, them slowly added throttle. At about
4800rpm I lifted off vertical & hovered about 3ft off the ground long enough
to wave to the grounded gyros, then gave full throttle & flew off. My grin
didn't go away till the next morning.
not blustery). If the wind picked up pretty hard (20mph+) while I was out,
I would fly it into the ground at about 50, then hold forward stick at that
speed so I would remain pushed into the ground until I got to where I needed
to turn off. Once the tail came down it would be very difficult to go where
I wanted if it was 90 degrees to the wind direction. ...Richard Swiderski
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David L. Bigelow
Subject: Kolb-List: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow" <dlbigelow@verizon.net>
Lots of highly experienced Kolb flyers on this list. I'd like to hear some
opinions on how strong the surface wind must be to deter you from setting up
and taking a recreational flight around the local area. Of course there is
going to be a difference between the 447 powered Firefly, and a 912 equipped
Mark III (wing loading).
How about posting your personal wind guidelines and the type of Kolb you are
flying?
Dave Bigelow
FS 2, 503 DCDI
Kamuela, Hawaii
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Recent Kolb Trip |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: russ kinne <kinnepix@earthlink.net>
Patrick
This scares hell out of me! The insurance boffins are always looking
for ANY excuse not to pay a claim --
if anyone makes a flight in an unapproved A/.C -- withOUT a signed
waiver in advance of the flight, and even maybe with one -- disaster
awaits. Most serious disaster!!!!!
Maybe things are very different in the UK but Pls.Check with your ins.
broker! You don't need this kind of complication.
This is an ENORMOUS liability for the A./C owner! Most unacceptable,
IMHO.
We like you! -- don't get into any avoidable trouble
Russ
On Jul 1, 2005, at 6:34 PM, Steve Kroll wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Steve Kroll <muso2080@yahoo.com>
>
> <<<<He will have approved the workmanship
> in progressive stages and may or may not do the first flight. He
> will also >>>>
>
> Patrick,
>
> How does insurance work on something llike that? If the inspector was
> to go down in your ship (heaven forbid), whose liability is it? It
> sounds like you have to jump through a few more hoops in the U.K. than
> we do here. What about crow-hopping? Will both you and the inspector
> be doing some of that too?
>
> Steve
> do not archive
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it
> out!
>
>
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: Recent Kolb Trip |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bill Vincent" <emailbill@chartermi.net>
Life is short ... lighten up!
I would rather read happy and interesting stories about trips then to read
about whining.
Bill Vincent
Firestar II
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Sellers" <dsel1@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Recent Kolb Trip
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dale Sellers" <dsel1@bellsouth.net>
>
> John and All,
> In my humble opinion, the discusions of trips are more suited to the
> matronics chat room than here.
>
> Dale Sellers
> Georgia UltraStar
Message 26
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| Subject: | Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
Richard,
We see eye to eye on wheel landings. I've owned 8 taildraggers of
various makes and with 7 of them, I probably landed 75 - 80% of the time wheels.
The 8th. was a Rutan Quickie and it had to be 3 pointed. I felt much more
in control in all conditions of wind with doing an automatic wheelie. It gets
you to your turn off point much quicker which is appreciated in traffic, with
someone landing close behind you.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Richard Swiderwski <rswiderski@earthlink.net> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderwski"
I was at a gyro flyin with my old UltraStar. They were bragging about how
well their gyros fly in the wind but none of them were flying because of the
strong wing blowing at the time. I didn't say anything & just walked over
to my trusty Kolb & taxied 50ft to the tarmac & turned into the wind. I
gave partial throttle, held the brakes, them slowly added throttle. At about
4800rpm I lifted off vertical & hovered about 3ft off the ground long enough
to wave to the grounded gyros, then gave full throttle & flew off. My grin
didn't go away till the next morning.
not blustery). If the wind picked up pretty hard (20mph+) while I was out,
I would fly it into the ground at about 50, then hold forward stick at that
speed so I would remain pushed into the ground until I got to where I needed
to turn off. Once the tail came down it would be very difficult to go where
I wanted if it was 90 degrees to the wind direction. ...Richard Swiderski
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David L. Bigelow
Subject: Kolb-List: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow"
Lots of highly experienced Kolb flyers on this list. I'd like to hear some
opinions on how strong the surface wind must be to deter you from setting up
and taking a recreational flight around the local area. Of course there is
going to be a difference between the 447 powered Firefly, and a 912 equipped
Mark III (wing loading).
How about posting your personal wind guidelines and the type of Kolb you are
flying?
Dave Bigelow
FS 2, 503 DCDI
Kamuela, Hawaii
Message 27
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|
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "woody" <duesouth@govital.net>
I purchased a Kolb MK 3 that was destroyed when a hanger fell on it. When
rebuilding I noticed that the boom had been repaired. Upon investigation I
found the tube had broken in a trailering incident. Support the boom when
trailering. Don't let the plane sit on the tail wheel.
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Ron <CaptainRon1@cox.net>
The Kolbs vertical center of gravity is well under the wing so they are
balanced naturally by their design. I added some extra dihedral into my
M3X. The plan is to have two sets of struts one will be inserted into
the wing tube. When on long cross country I will use the long one, for
fun and play I will use the short one. I am also thinking about a strut
with 1 or two degrees of negative dihedral. It will need to be tested
before I'd recommend it though. However all this stuff will have to
wait till I get it flying.
Ron
Sierra Vista Arizona
On Jul 1, 2005, at 3:08 PM, Steve Garvelink wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Steve Garvelink" <link@cdc.net>
>
> Ray,
>
> I am also an rc flyer and know first hand when you take the dihedral
> out
> of a wing they spin a lot easier. The dihedral seem to make the models
> a lot more stable and self righting. With enough of it you only need
> to
> use elevator and rudder to initiate turns. Have often wondered why the
> kolbs have none.
>
> Steve
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ray anderson
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
>
> Steve,
> I haven't found a need to balance the ailerons on either of
> my
> Ultra Stars but I can't speak for others who have built and flown them.
> I would guess that John Hauck would have a better knowledge of that
> since he was one of the pioneer builders of the Ultra Star and probably
> has more time than others in them.
>
> Steve Garvelink <link@cdc.net> wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Steve Garvelink"
>
>
> Has anyone balanced the ailerons on there ultrastar and if so what kind
> of results?
>
> Steve Garvelink
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ray anderson
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Maximum Wind for Kolb Flying
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson
>
> The Ultra Stars being the lightest of the pack, I think, are even more
> susceptible to windy conditions than our big brothers. My first US
> behaved pretty much like the examples given here in the same mentioned
> wind conditions. I just couldn't get comfortable with it so I
> lengthened
> both struts to get several degrees wing s and it made a world of
> difference in rough air control. I didn't notice any difference in
> other
> performance. We all remember our model airplane building where we used
> plenty of dihedral unless flying radio control for aerobatics. I
> haven't
> put dihedral in the US I now have but I'm thinking about it.
> I wonder if the little vortex generators (?) placed on the wing surface
> would smooth out any of the instability?
>
> Richard Pike wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike
>
> Depends on the terrain you are flying in. A twenty mile wind in flat
> country is not bad but a 15 mile wind in the mountains of E Tennessee
> can
> be a real eye opener. Especially since all the ridges locally run
> SW-NE.
> If
> the wind is out of the south west, up to 15 is tolerable, because then
> the
> wind flows with the terrain. If it is out of the south east at more
> than
>
> 10, it is at 90% to the ridges, it starts rotoring across all the
> ridges
>
> and mountains, and accumulating unsettled energy in the process. Then
> it
> is
> not worth the trouble, do like Ralph said, go motorcycle riding.
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> 525 empty weight, Rotax 582
>
> At 10:51 PM 6/30/2005 -1000, you wrote:
>
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow"
>>
>> Lots of highly experienced Kolb flyers on this list. I'd like to hear
>> some opinions on how strong the surface wind must be to deter you from
>> setting up and taking a recreational flight around the local area. Of
>> course there is going to be a difference between the 447 powered
> Firefly,
>> and a 912 equipped Mark III (wing loading).
>>
>> How about posting your personal wind guidelines and the type of Kolb
> you
>> are flying?
>>
>> Dave Bigelow
>> FS 2, 503 DCDI
>> Kamuela, Hawaii
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
>
>
Have a great day!
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Recent Kolb Trip |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Steve Kroll <muso2080@yahoo.com>
John W....all
Threads tend to evolve over time and I've always thought that was a good thing.
It seems to keep things light, friendly, and conversational. I've never even
considered the idea that somebody might have a reason for keeping them rigidly
on topic. I'll do what I can to honor your request but I can't guarantee it
because I won't always know that it's your thread. I hope that works for you.
Steve
do not archive
Message 30
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| Subject: | Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] |
DNA: do not archive
--> Kolb-List message posted by: dralle@matronics.com
Dear Lister,
Please read over the Kolb-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Kolb-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kolb-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Kolb-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kolb-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Kolb-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Kolb-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Kolb-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
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