Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:35 AM - Re: Radio Transmit Noise (Guy Morgan)
2. 05:43 AM - Re: Synthetic 447 Sin (Richard Swiderwski)
3. 05:52 AM - Re: Synthetic 447 Sin (GeoR38@aol.com)
4. 06:05 AM - Re: Synthetic 447 Sin (John Hauck)
5. 06:13 AM - Re: Synthetic 447 Sin (Beauford)
6. 06:20 AM - Re: Synthetic 447 Sin (Robert Laird)
7. 06:22 AM - Two Stroke Oil/Full Synthetic (John Hauck)
8. 06:34 AM - Oshkosh! (info)
9. 07:34 AM - AMSOIL Worries (skyrider2)
10. 08:04 AM - Re: Old thread- Trips (N27SB@aol.com)
11. 08:14 AM - (no subject) (Terry Frantz)
12. 08:43 AM - Re: Old thread- Trips (DCulver701@aol.com)
13. 08:51 AM - Re: Two Stroke Oil/Full Synthetic & Plugs (JIM HEFNER)
14. 08:54 AM - Re: Synthetic 447 Sin (Richard Pike)
15. 09:05 AM - Re: Old thread- Trips (N27SB@aol.com)
16. 09:07 AM - Re: Re: Two Stroke Oil/Full Synthetic & Plugs (Richard Pike)
17. 09:27 AM - Re: Synthetic 447 Sin (Jack & Louise Hart)
18. 09:38 AM - M-IIIC Drivers in Iowa (Chuck Stonex)
19. 09:49 AM - Re: Two Stroke Oil/Full Synthetic (Larry Cottrell)
20. 10:09 AM - Re: Re: Two Stroke Oil/Full Synthetic & Plugs (JIM HEFNER)
21. 10:54 AM - Re: Synthetic 447 Sin (Bob N.)
22. 04:07 PM - N28JL M-III in Iowa (Chuck Stonex)
23. 04:09 PM - Re: Two Stroke Oil/Full Synthetic & Plugs (possums)
24. 04:27 PM - FireFly for sale (N27SB@aol.com)
25. 05:10 PM - Re: Re: Two Stroke Oil - personal ruin (Beauford)
26. 05:57 PM - Crash update (Cat36Fly@aol.com)
27. 06:59 PM - Re: Re: Two Stroke Oil - personal ruin (N27SB@aol.com)
28. 07:03 PM - Re: Re: Two Stroke Oil - personal ruin (N27SB@aol.com)
29. 07:21 PM - Fw: Re: Two Stroke Oil - personal ruin (Beauford)
30. 07:33 PM - Re: Re: Two Stroke Oil - personal ruin (possums)
31. 07:54 PM - Re: Synthetic 447 Sin (Jim Baker)
32. 09:43 PM - Re: Synthetic 447 Sin (bryan green)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Radio Transmit Noise |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Guy Morgan" <morganguy@hotmail.com>
Howdy Kolbers,
When installing avionics you need to make sure the system is grounded
according to the manufacturer's instructions. Anything that transmits or
receives RF is susceptible to interference caused by ground loops. (I'm not
talking about what happens when you get crossed up on landing.) All of the
shielded wires, i.e. coax, twisted pairs, etc. should only be grounded on
one end. I install and repair avionics for a living, and it's amazing how
one poorly or improperly grounded wire can turn a high-dollar box into a
hunk of junk. If you've checked the grounds and they're alright, then maybe
you need a filter to get rid of the engine noise. Just my two cents worth.
Guy Morgan
Galveston, TX Firefly
do not archive
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
Message 2
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| Subject: | Synthetic 447 Sin |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderwski" <rswiderski@earthlink.net>
Beauford,
I have read & heard stories of the 100:1 amsoil seizing and/or
scuffing engines. I use to run Klotz synthetic which recommends a 50:1
ratio. I ordered by the case from a snowmobile parts company. Oil is like
religion, it can't be discussed very easily without emotions getting in the
way! I would use amsoil at the 50:1 factory recommendation. If it doesn't
have paraffin to crude up the rings, then it won't matter that you are
running 50:1. If it has superior lubrication qualities & doesn't need to be
mixed at the normal ratio, then you will just have extra insurance if you do
mix it at 50:1. I am not a true believer when it comes to mixing 100:1 & I
will remain a skeptic until I see non-Amsoil backed research stating
otherwise. 2-strokes are always running on the edge and demanding more out
of one is inviting a another saga that will make decarboning a rose path.
Richard Swiderski
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Beauford
Subject: Kolb-List: Synthetic 447
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Kolbers and Kolbettes...
Just to close the 447 carbon saga, today I allowed a VISA card to carry me
over to the dark side.... Today, dear Kolbers, I bought Amsoil
synthetic 100 to 1 oil...cases of it.
I might end up doing Pennziol air-cooled penance later on, but tonight the
Pennsylvania carbon remnants are still too fresh under my battered
fingernails to feel depressed about this... Henceforth, I refuse to permit
distant, arrogant Austrian technocrats to dictate an established schedule of
pre-planned misery to me every 50 hours of operation...It's bad enough that
they extorted all that money for the pleasure of owning this wretched
thing... The mere fact that they slyly "recommend" the paraffin based P-oil
@ 50 to 1 on the one hand, while some pages later in the "bible" casually
informing the hapless victim to mentally gird his loins for the grotesque
and highly painful 50 hour decarboning ceremony which results from that very
usage, is patently ludicrous... The only thing more ridiculous is how I
failed to recognize this fiendish little loop until it slapped me between
the running lights.
Make no mistake.... I will likely feel deep sympathetic pain in my tailbone
as I fire up for the first time on that skinny new mixture...listening
subconsciously for the metal-on-metal symphony...but I have a feeling I'll
get over it quickly and the contraption will survive. Too many other
pioneers have successfully gone before...
I plan to routinely peer into the plug-holes every few hours as this new
(for me) adventure unfolds... Who knows -- maybe I'll even be able to see
the reflection of my Macanudo-stained front toofies as I grin in through the
holes at the tops of those recently hand-polished Austrian pistons...
Thoroughly Unseized Beauford
FF #076
Brandon FL
Do Not Archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Synthetic 447 Sin |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
In a message dated 7/20/2005 8:44:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
rswiderski@earthlink.net writes:
I plan to routinely peer into the plug-holes every few hours as this new
(for me) adventure unfolds... Who knows -- maybe I'll even be able to see
the reflection of my Macanudo-stained front toofies as I grin in through the
holes at the tops of those recently hand-polished Austrian pistons...
Thoroughly Unseized Beauford
FF #076
Brandon FL
Do Not Archive
Oh! Beauford!, really.... you are tooo much!!
GeorgeRandolph
Firestar driver from the Villages ...now in Ohio temporarily...
getting paint to finish By George the Kx firestar
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Synthetic 447 Sin |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
| I would use amsoil at the 50:1 factory recommendation.
If it has superior lubrication qualities & doesn't need to be
| mixed at the normal ratio, then you will just have extra insurance
if you do
| mix it at 50:1.
| Richard Swiderski
Richard/Beauford/All:
Changing fuel/oil mixture ratio also changes air fuel mixture. Not
much, but it will change it a little richer.
The manufacturer set the oil/fuel ratio for some reason. I do not
know what that is. I have heard that the crank bearings required a
certain ratio fuel/oil. That excess oil could cause as many problems
as too little oil. But that is strictly hearsay at this point.
There are several different brands of two stroke full sythetic oil
available in Wal*Mart. Most are for outboard motors, I think. I
haven't paid much attention to them because I have no use for the
expensive oil in my weed eater and chain saw. They do alright on el
cheapo Wal*Mart two cycle oil.
Think I would do some serious research, if possible, on switching to
full sythetic from organic two stroke oil. At least contact Rotax and
get their recommendation. For that matter, I'd contact several Rotax
folks: Ronnie Smith, Lockwood, and others. Some other good folks,
maybe, would be Sea Doo dealers. Seems that always have a contant
inventory of Rotax powered toys waiting for repair and overhaul.
If I was flying a two stroke, I'd be doing everthing I could to insure
that critter was going to keep on buzzing as long as we were flying.
I am sure full synthetic oil would be included.
As expensive as Rotax engines and parts are, and the fragility (?) of
my ass, I'd do extensive research prior to assuming the role of the
Rotax engineer.
john h
MKIII/912ULS
Titus, AL
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Synthetic 447 Sin |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Richard...
You make some good points... and I will actually run it a little fatter than
100 to 1. If it would not incite a fresh round of "oil wars" I would be
curious to know if anyone on the list has any first-hand knowledge of 100 to
1 Amsoil damaging an engine.
Beauford
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Swiderwski" <rswiderski@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Synthetic 447 Sin
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderwski"
> <rswiderski@earthlink.net>
>
> Beauford,
> I have read & heard stories of the 100:1 amsoil seizing and/or
> scuffing engines. I use to run Klotz synthetic which recommends a 50:1
> ratio. I ordered by the case from a snowmobile parts company. Oil is like
> religion, it can't be discussed very easily without emotions getting in
> the
> way! I would use amsoil at the 50:1 factory recommendation. If it doesn't
> have paraffin to crude up the rings, then it won't matter that you are
> running 50:1. If it has superior lubrication qualities & doesn't need to
> be
> mixed at the normal ratio, then you will just have extra insurance if you
> do
> mix it at 50:1. I am not a true believer when it comes to mixing 100:1 &
> I
> will remain a skeptic until I see non-Amsoil backed research stating
> otherwise. 2-strokes are always running on the edge and demanding more
> out
> of one is inviting a another saga that will make decarboning a rose path.
>
> Richard Swiderski
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Beauford
> To: Kolb List
> Subject: Kolb-List: Synthetic 447
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
>
> Kolbers and Kolbettes...
>
> Just to close the 447 carbon saga, today I allowed a VISA card to carry me
> over to the dark side.... Today, dear Kolbers, I bought Amsoil
> synthetic 100 to 1 oil...cases of it.
>
> I might end up doing Pennziol air-cooled penance later on, but tonight the
> Pennsylvania carbon remnants are still too fresh under my battered
> fingernails to feel depressed about this... Henceforth, I refuse to
> permit
> distant, arrogant Austrian technocrats to dictate an established schedule
> of
> pre-planned misery to me every 50 hours of operation...It's bad enough
> that
> they extorted all that money for the pleasure of owning this wretched
> thing... The mere fact that they slyly "recommend" the paraffin based
> P-oil
> @ 50 to 1 on the one hand, while some pages later in the "bible" casually
> informing the hapless victim to mentally gird his loins for the grotesque
> and highly painful 50 hour decarboning ceremony which results from that
> very
> usage, is patently ludicrous... The only thing more ridiculous is how I
> failed to recognize this fiendish little loop until it slapped me between
> the running lights.
>
> Make no mistake.... I will likely feel deep sympathetic pain in my
> tailbone
> as I fire up for the first time on that skinny new mixture...listening
> subconsciously for the metal-on-metal symphony...but I have a feeling I'll
> get over it quickly and the contraption will survive. Too many other
> pioneers have successfully gone before...
>
> I plan to routinely peer into the plug-holes every few hours as this new
> (for me) adventure unfolds... Who knows -- maybe I'll even be able to
> see
> the reflection of my Macanudo-stained front toofies as I grin in through
> the
> holes at the tops of those recently hand-polished Austrian pistons...
>
> Thoroughly Unseized Beauford
> FF #076
> Brandon FL
> Do Not Archive
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Synthetic 447 Sin |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Robert Laird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
I, too, switched from Pennzoil to Amsoil a few years back when I was driving a
503... But I couldn't quite buy into the 100:1 so I hedged and used 70:1 and,
at the same time, asked Rotax for a "final word" on the subject. After a month
or so, the final word came back: no matter what oil you decide to use, use
it at 50:1... PERIOD. So, I stuck with Amsoil, but I ran it at 50:1... I
was glad I did if for only one reason: I stopped hearing, in my imagination,
the grinding of rings on cylinders. ;-)
-- R
-------- Original Message --------
> From: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 6:47 PM
> To: "Kolb List" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Synthetic 447 Sin
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
>
> Kolbers and Kolbettes...
>
> Just to close the 447 carbon saga, today I allowed a VISA card to carry me over
to the dark side.... Today, dear Kolbers, I bought Amsoil
> synthetic 100 to 1 oil...cases of it.
>
> I might end up doing Pennziol air-cooled penance later on, but tonight the Pennsylvania
carbon remnants are still too fresh under my battered fingernails to
feel depressed about this... Henceforth, I refuse to permit distant, arrogant
Austrian technocrats to dictate an established schedule of pre-planned misery
to me every 50 hours of operation...It's bad enough that they extorted all
that money for the pleasure of owning this wretched thing... The mere fact that
they slyly "recommend" the paraffin based P-oil @ 50 to 1 on the one hand, while
some pages later in the "bible" casually informing the hapless victim to
mentally gird his loins for the grotesque and highly painful 50 hour decarboning
ceremony which results from that very usage, is patently ludicrous... The only
thing more ridiculous is how I failed to recognize this fiendish little loop
until it slapped me between the running lights.
>
> Make no mistake.... I will likely feel deep sympathetic pain in my tailbone as
I fire up for the first time on that skinny new mixture...listening subconsciously
for the metal-on-metal symphony...but I have a feeling I'll get over it
quickly and the contraption will survive. Too many other pioneers have successfully
gone before...
>
> I plan to routinely peer into the plug-holes every few hours as this new (for
me) adventure unfolds... Who knows -- maybe I'll even be able to see the reflection
of my Macanudo-stained front toofies as I grin in through the holes at
the tops of those recently hand-polished Austrian pistons...
>
> Thoroughly Unseized Beauford
> FF #076
> Brandon FL
> Do Not Archive
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Two Stroke Oil/Full Synthetic |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Hi Folks:
Richard Pike has been using Phillips two stroke oil, with good
success, for a long time.
Found this article on Full Synthetic Phillips that was very
interesting. I think if I was two stroking it, I'd give this product
a go:
http://www.snowest.com/?pageID=46&ID=612&StartRow=1
I did a Google search for:
"Two stroke engines and full synthetic oil"
Resulted in a lot of good hits. Don't have time to sit here and read
all of them now.
Take care,
john h
Message 8
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "info" <info@aircrafttechsupport.com>
Hi Kolbers,
Please look us up this year at Oshkosh, we'll be running the Polyfiber booth again
right in the middle of Building "A".
Thanks,
Jim & Dondi Miller
Aircraft Technical Support, Inc.
Poly-Fiber, Ceconite & Randolph Distributors
(Toll Free) (877) 877-3334
Web Site: www.poly-fiber.com
E-mail: info@aircrafttechsupport.com
Message 9
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "skyrider2" <skyrider2@earthlink.net>
Beauford,
No Worries Mate. Started running AMSOIL at 100 to 1 mixture with our
original Chrysler West Bend 2 strokes in the mid to late 70's cause that's
the only oil that would keep 'em running. Prior to that, we worked on the
engines for 2 hours for every hour in the air.
Then when the Cuyuna 430's came around, we danced with the one that had
brung us (that far). Still no problems. Our first two place Quicksilver
had a 430 on it and was underpowered for two "robust" passengers, so it
pretty much had to run wide open all of the time. Retired that engine after
over 470 hours with only plug changes and carb jet changes for maintenance.
It was still running great, but we wanted MORE Power........
When Rotax came on the scene, we continued to run the 100 to 1 mixture in
277's, 377's, 447's and 503's. Always been impressed with the result.
Still using their 2 stroke oil in my 503 DCDI in the Drifter to this day.
And in my chainsaws, weedeaters, lawn mower, Wetbike, Mercury outboard
pontoon boat motor and leaf blowers.
Also, I use AMSOIL 4 stroke oils in my generator, both ski boats, and just
changed my F250 diesel over to their Diesel oil. I guess I'm hooked.
So, just look for cooler temps, higher revs, less oil spit through the
exhaust onto your tailfeathers, and cleaner plugs.
Fly safely,
Doug Lawton
NE Georgia & Whitwell TN
Do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Old thread- Trips |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: N27SB@aol.com
In a message dated 7/19/05 9:58:56 PM Central Daylight Time,
DCulver701@aol.com writes:
> Something low &slower seems to
> appeal to me more, along with the easier access in &out of the cockpit. From
>
> what I've read here, there are some pilots here my age &older. For me,
> thats
> very encouraging! I got excited reading the story in Sport Pilot, july
> edition
> about Steve Boetto,s Firefly on floats. That would sure work out at our Fl.
> winter home which has lake access. Keep it at the house &use the lake for my
>
> runway, love it!
Thanks for the compliment Dave. Let me know when you are in Fla. I really
enjoy hauling to a new area and sightseeing. I have found it to be more fun to
sit in my Toyota for an hour on the way to a cool place to fly than grind away
over woods and other hostile terrain. I also do not have to worry about the
weather closing behind me as well. As far as 2 place goes, I would probably do
a Firestar II on floats. It would still be easy to fold and trailer and would
feel like a One Holer for 95% that you fly alone.
Steve Boetto
FireFly #007 on Floats
Message 11
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Terry Frantz <tkrolfe@usadatanet.net>
Just a reminder that Amsoil makes a 50 to 1 premix oil called
Interceptor. I'm sure other synthetic companies do the same for those
with injection systems. I too am one of those reluctant to go 100 to 1
as others do including my friend. I also like the idea of a blend,
that's why I mix a small amount of mineral oil with it, 15% now. I use
a blend in my cars also and feel I get the best of both worlds.
Terry - FireFly #95
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Old thread- Trips |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: DCulver701@aol.com
Hi Steve Boetto, yes i really enjoyed that article of your Firefly on floats
in the july edition of sport pilot. The concept of being able to keep the
boat at my house, (folding wings) , and use the lake as my runway is very
appealing. Our place is in Lake county, on lake Yale in Grand Island, Fl. Yes
i
would love to see your plane with the whole trailering process. I'll be sure to
give you a shout on the list when we get back down to Fl. Probably be in Nov.
sometime, as last year we came down the day after x-mas, and hit a big snow
storm which made for dangerous trip, won't do that again! Best regards, Dave
Culver
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Two Stroke Oil/Full Synthetic & Plugs |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JIM HEFNER" <hefner_jim@msn.com>
Richard Pike has been using Phillips two stroke oil, with good
success, for a long time.
----------------------
John/all,
I'll throw my 2 cents in on this topic for what its worth. I've been using Redline
2 Cycle Racing Oil at 100:1 in my 447 for over 2.5 yrs and just did my 200
hr engine checks before the MV trip.... looks new inside... no carboning in
rings or exhaust port and piston tops look clean through plug holes. The plugs
had that nice dry light brown look. I also use 2 oz MMO per 5 gal fuel, so
that might be helping with the carbon cleansing too, but the Redline oil is great
for the engine lube... I went with what most of the racers of all types go
with... nothing better out there. Think I paid around $38 a gal last time a
year and a half ago, so it's not bad. Bought 3 gals to minimize shipping cost/gal.
Regarding plugs for my 447 (added subject): I change plugs proactively at 75 hrs
of use whether they need it or not... last time I replaced them they still
looked good and it was starting on first pull or two. I had been using NGK BR8EV's,
but they recently discontinued them so I ordered BR8EI's (Iridium) at $8
per plug... NGK apparently replaced Palladium. Haven't used them yet, but have
no doubt they will perform equally well. To me, it's worth the extra money
over the standard plugs that I was changing every 10 hrs!!
The combination of the top notch plugs, pure synthetic oil at 100:1, plus MMO has
been working great for me keeping the insides of my 447 looking nice and shiny.
I fly in pretty hostile terrain often if you have seen my pictures, so I'm
sticking with the best and will continue to be proactive with engine maintenance.
I like hearing that engine purr back there.... never misses a beat! I
flew Saturday morning for the first time since my last flight in Moab on 5/24....
engine started on the first live ignition pull... no primer on my plane...
just the bulb to pump fuel to the carb bowel and full choke. After pumping
bulb to fill the bowel, I apply full choke and pull the starter rope 2-3 times
with ignition off and then turn ignition on for the actual start. On cold start,
there is no noticeable blue smoke like it did when I first got it and was
using Pennzoil 2 cycle oil.
All just info for what it is worth. I live in the desert where it is very dry
and I fly pretty regularly year round, so you need to consider that as well.
If using 100:1 synthetic, you need to add some better corrosion resistant lube
to the cyl's if it will be sitting for extended periods, especially in high humidity
locations. Probably not a good idea to use 100:1 synthetics in some places,
depending on how regular you fly.
Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
FF #022
Do Not Archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Synthetic 447 Sin |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Back around 1983 I built a Maxair Hummer with a Rotax 277 on it and the
dealer told me to use Amsoil in it. I broke it in at 50:1, and then began
to gradually reduce the oil ratio, working my way toward 100:1 At around
80:1 ratio, I was flying home one afternoon and noticed that the engine had
begun to make a rattling noise. I babied it home on the lowest power
setting I could, wondering if I had killed my new Rotax with too little
oil. Agonized over it that night, the next day I mixed the oil back to 50:1
and started it up, let it run at fast idle for a good while and then
throttled it up. The rattle was gone. And I never had any problems out of
that engine.
I believe that John's post identified the problem, when you reduce the
volume of oil in the engine below a certain point, there is just not enough
oil to go around and the first indication is bearing rattle, those little
pins and rollers need a thicker film cushion. Amsoil will obviously work at
100:1, but the Rotax was designed to use more oil. Used Amsoil for about
six months total, remember having some carbon deposits, not much.
Just remembered another Amsoil tale - Did have one curious failure, got
the engine a bit lean - first really cold day of fall, had started flying
in spring and the mixture was good all summer - at full power taking off
from a friend's strip, the engine quit. Found a small round ball of lead
between the spark plug electrodes. Put in a new plug and ran it up, within
a minute it did the same thing again, looked like a little ball bearing
between the electrodes. Flicked it out and ran the engine to 75% power and
it ran fine, no little lead balls. Took off and flew home at 75% power and
didn't fly again until I understood about mixture adjustment, and richening
the engine for cold weather. Also, that was around when I switched to
Phillips oil. Little lead ball phenomenon never happened again. Was the
Amsoil a factor? Did I get a batch of bad gas? (Amoco regular) Who knows?
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 09:20 AM 7/20/05 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
>
>Richard...
>You make some good points... and I will actually run it a little fatter than
>100 to 1. If it would not incite a fresh round of "oil wars" I would be
>curious to know if anyone on the list has any first-hand knowledge of 100 to
>1 Amsoil damaging an engine.
>Beauford
>Do Not Archive
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Richard Swiderwski" <rswiderski@earthlink.net>
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Synthetic 447 Sin
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderwski"
> > <rswiderski@earthlink.net>
> >
> > Beauford,
> > I have read & heard stories of the 100:1 amsoil seizing and/or
> > scuffing engines. I use to run Klotz synthetic which recommends a 50:1
> > ratio. I ordered by the case from a snowmobile parts company. Oil is like
> > religion, it can't be discussed very easily without emotions getting in
> > the
> > way! I would use amsoil at the 50:1 factory recommendation. If it doesn't
> > have paraffin to crude up the rings, then it won't matter that you are
> > running 50:1. If it has superior lubrication qualities & doesn't need to
> > be
> > mixed at the normal ratio, then you will just have extra insurance if you
> > do
> > mix it at 50:1. I am not a true believer when it comes to mixing 100:1 &
> > I
> > will remain a skeptic until I see non-Amsoil backed research stating
> > otherwise. 2-strokes are always running on the edge and demanding more
> > out
> > of one is inviting a another saga that will make decarboning a rose path.
> >
> > Richard Swiderski
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Beauford
> > To: Kolb List
> > Subject: Kolb-List: Synthetic 447
> >
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
> >
> > Kolbers and Kolbettes...
> >
> > Just to close the 447 carbon saga, today I allowed a VISA card to carry me
> > over to the dark side.... Today, dear Kolbers, I bought Amsoil
> > synthetic 100 to 1 oil...cases of it.
> >
> > I might end up doing Pennziol air-cooled penance later on, but tonight the
> > Pennsylvania carbon remnants are still too fresh under my battered
> > fingernails to feel depressed about this... Henceforth, I refuse to
> > permit
> > distant, arrogant Austrian technocrats to dictate an established schedule
> > of
> > pre-planned misery to me every 50 hours of operation...It's bad enough
> > that
> > they extorted all that money for the pleasure of owning this wretched
> > thing... The mere fact that they slyly "recommend" the paraffin based
> > P-oil
> > @ 50 to 1 on the one hand, while some pages later in the "bible" casually
> > informing the hapless victim to mentally gird his loins for the grotesque
> > and highly painful 50 hour decarboning ceremony which results from that
> > very
> > usage, is patently ludicrous... The only thing more ridiculous is how I
> > failed to recognize this fiendish little loop until it slapped me between
> > the running lights.
> >
> > Make no mistake.... I will likely feel deep sympathetic pain in my
> > tailbone
> > as I fire up for the first time on that skinny new mixture...listening
> > subconsciously for the metal-on-metal symphony...but I have a feeling I'll
> > get over it quickly and the contraption will survive. Too many other
> > pioneers have successfully gone before...
> >
> > I plan to routinely peer into the plug-holes every few hours as this new
> > (for me) adventure unfolds... Who knows -- maybe I'll even be able to
> > see
> > the reflection of my Macanudo-stained front toofies as I grin in through
> > the
> > holes at the tops of those recently hand-polished Austrian pistons...
> >
> > Thoroughly Unseized Beauford
> > FF #076
> > Brandon FL
> > Do Not Archive
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>--
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Old thread- Trips |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: N27SB@aol.com
In a message dated 7/20/05 10:43:45 AM Central Daylight Time,
DCulver701@aol.com writes:
> Our place is in Lake county, on lake Yale in Grand Island, Fl. Yes i
> would love to see your plane with the whole trailering process. I'll be
> sure to
> give you a shout on the list when we get back down to Fl. Probably be in
> Nov.
>
Dave, Lake county is next door. My Dad lives in Sorrento. I would be happy to
come by on a nice day and do some flying. Give me a call.
Steve
do not archive
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Two Stroke Oil/Full Synthetic & Plugs |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Wow... $38 a gallon. But if you are mixing it 100:1, that helps bring it
back to reality. A case of 12 quarts of Phillips Injex costs me $35 with
tax, and the distributor delivers it to my front door.
Guess the cost of living is just cheaper here in the Apple-a-chuns...
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
At 08:51 AM 7/20/05 -0700, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JIM HEFNER" <hefner_jim@msn.com>
>John/all,
>I'll throw my 2 cents in on this topic for what its worth. I've been
>using Redline 2 Cycle Racing Oil at 100:1 in my 447 for over 2.5 yrs and
>just did my 200 hr engine checks before the MV trip.... looks new
>inside... no carboning in rings or exhaust port and piston tops look clean
>through plug holes. The plugs had that nice dry light brown look. I
>also use 2 oz MMO per 5 gal fuel, so that might be helping with the carbon
>cleansing too, but the Redline oil is great for the engine lube... I went
>with what most of the racers of all types go with... nothing better out
>there. Think I paid around $38 a gal last time a year and a half ago, so
>it's not bad. Bought 3 gals to minimize shipping cost/gal.
<snip>
>Jim Hefner
>Tucson, AZ
>FF #022
>Do Not Archive
>
>
>--
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Synthetic 447 Sin |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart@ldd.net>
At 09:20 AM 7/20/05 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
>
>Richard...
>You make some good points... and I will actually run it a little fatter than
>100 to 1. If it would not incite a fresh round of "oil wars" I would be
>curious to know if anyone on the list has any first-hand knowledge of 100 to
>1 Amsoil damaging an engine.
>Beauford
>Do Not Archive
>
Beauford,
An earlier response repeated.
"Be careful when using AMSOIL for two strokes. It is a good oil but it has
one important fault. It loves water. If a bottle is left with the cap
loose, it will suck up water from the atmosphere and change the oil
composition to the point that it will jell. This was the reason AMSOIL
changed from the white opaque plastic bottles to a gray plastic bottle. If
a case of oil was stored in a high humidity environment, the oil absorbed
water through the white bottle.
In my case the degraded oil caused excessive glass hard like carbon to form
under the rings, and on the piston and head surfaces. Upon a full throttle
climb out with good CHT and EGT readings, the build up under the rings
caused one piston to seize and put me into a bean field. I had been
checking the rings to see if they were stuck. When the engine was cold, they
were loose. If I had followed Rotax decarb schedule, I would have caught it.
But I was using a super oil that was supposed to take care of these problems."
A little additional info:
I ran Amsoil 100 to 1 and at 57:36 tt on the 447, one cylinder and piston
seized. Running Amsoil at 100 to 1 was not the culprit. In the non scuffed
area in the bad cylinder and the good cylinder the hone marks were plainly
visible in the area swept by the rings.
What happened to make the engine seize was the build up of glass like
substance under the rings. Upon full throttle climb with temps reading in
the normal range, the ring tried to expand but there was no room under the
ring for it to expand into. This placed excessive pressure on piston ring
face and the cylinder, which in turn generated heat and finally seisure.
After discussion with Amsoil rep's I discovered what caused the problem.
After I repaired the engine, I went back to Penzoil 50 to 1 and accepted the
smoke and scrubbing the oil off the tail of the FireFly.
The engine supplier for the Simonini Victor 1+ advised that I use Amsoil but
I could not. I am using Opti 2, which is supposed to be good for mixing 100
to 1. I am using it at 50 to 1. It does not seem to put out as much smoke
or coat the tail of the FireFly as did the Pensoil. When I tore the engine
down after the dampener ring fiasco the Victor 1+ had about 100 hours total
time. Again, I discovered hone marks on the cylinder area that was swept by
the piston rings. I found a little very soft carbon on the head of the
piston and on the bottom side of the exhaust manifold. No significant
carbon on the head and none under the rings. Simonini does not recommend
decarb until 300 hours.
What ever oil you use, it is wise to pull off the heads and cylinders after
the first 50 hours. If you find no carbon, you are lucky or doing something
better than Rotax planned for. What ever it is, keep doing it and
extend your decarb cycle period. But if, you make changes in oil, fuel, etc
it would probably be best to do a decarb after another 50 hours to make sure
you have not made a change for the worst. In my case checking for stuck
rings through the exhaust port was an inconclusive test.
Why did I change to Opti 2? I visited a little shop in Perryville, Missouri
that sold and repaired all kinds of two cycle equipment. I asked the old
fellow who ran the shop what was the best oil for two cycle engines. He
threw a little packet of Opti 2 on top of the counter top and said "I have
never had an engine come in here seized up that was using Opti 2." So far
so good.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Jack B. Hart
jbhart@ldd.net
Message 18
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| Subject: | M-IIIC Drivers in Iowa |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chuck Stonex" <cstonex@msn.com>
Hello everyone. I have been reading the list for a while and I think I have
finally got a good lead on a M-III of my own. I am hoping to find someone in
the Des Moines Iowa area to look at it and give their opinion and also to
help me transistion into it. I have experiance with T bird and Challenger
with tricycle gear but no tail experiance. Any assistance would be greatly
appreciated.
Thanks
Chuck Stonex
N28JL
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Two Stroke Oil/Full Synthetic |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrel@kfalls.net>
> Richard Pike has been using Phillips two stroke oil, with good
> success, for a long time.
>
> Found this article on Full Synthetic Phillips that was very
> interesting. I think if I was two stroking it, I'd give this product
> a go:
>
> http://www.snowest.com/?pageID=46&ID=612&StartRow=1
I did a check locally and the local oil dealer carries it here in Klamath,
(surprisingly) it comes to 7.72 a quart. I think that will be cheaper than
having to special order Pennzoil air cooled. Will have to give it a try
sometime soon.
Larry, Klamath
do not archive
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Re: Two Stroke Oil/Full Synthetic & Plugs |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JIM HEFNER" <hefner_jim@msn.com>
Wow... $38 a gallon. But if you are mixing it 100:1, that helps bring it
back to reality. A case of 12 quarts of Phillips Injex costs me $35 with
tax, and the distributor delivers it to my front door.
Guess the cost of living is just cheaper here in the Apple-a-chuns...
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
---------------------------
Richard, $35 for 3 gal's is really cheap for full synthetic oil... suspiciously
low. Mobil 1 for cars at Walmart is $22.50 or so as I remember for 5 quarts....
that's a lot more than $11.67 / gal you paid for this oil.... I haven't heard
of the oil you are using... not sure it is avail here. You are right, mixing
at 100:1 uses so little oil that a gal lasts me a year or more, so it's not
a big deal. I'll stick with something more widely used like Redline or even
Amsoil and pay the price. Sounds like you found a bargain.
By the way in my earlier post regarding plugs, I misquoted the Iridium plug number...
left off the X at the end. BR8EIX is what I bought to replace the BR8EV's
that I had been using.... sorry about that!
Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
FF#022 215 hrs
Do not archive
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Synthetic 447 Sin |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob N." <ronoy@shentel.net>
Speaking of lead fouling plugs, I have an old ad for Champion A/C plugs,
with cutaway view of a badly fouled plug. The cutline: How much does
0.03 grams of lead weigh...at takeoff? The text ends with Sometimes, too much.
Bob N.
do not archive
Message 22
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| Subject: | N28JL M-III in Iowa |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chuck Stonex" <cstonex@msn.com>
Ok I got a little more info today. This M-III was built by Ron Marshall in
Anchorage Alaska around 1994. He got it the kit from Lakeland Ultralights
Inc (Florida?). Somehow it ended up with Jack Lundquist in Henderson Nev.
Then it became a garage orniment for an older gentleman in Dayton Ohio area
until recently when it was moved to Iowa.
It has been deregistered and did (does) have an airworthyness certificate.
I had all of these documents in my hand this afternoon so I know they are
right. This plane has 2 serial numbers, "001" according to an N number
search through Landings, and "LAK2" according to the builders plate under
the right verticle stabalizer. I was able to read some of the builders notes
and about some of his calls to Dennis Souder who I assume at the factory.
I'm guessing that maybe Dennis was "old" Kolb. His names shows up in the
builders manual as a tech or designer under the diagrams.
I'm still hoping to be able to talk to Ron Marshall or Jack Lundquist so
hopefully some one knows them and will pass this on.
I am very interested in buying this M-III if I can get all the right answers
and history. IF not I know where I can get a good deal on a Firestar I.
Thanks
Chuck Stonex
Des Moines IA
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Two Stroke Oil/Full Synthetic & Plugs |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
I am now 646 hours without a decarbon. Never had the jugs off. I check every
50 hours or so (when I repaint my muffler) with a dental mirror and the
spark plugs out , intake/exhaust manifolds off.
I have a 503 dual-carb with an E-gearbox. This plane and engine is just a
little 6 years old. The engine is set up like it came out of the box minus
the fuel injection. I used the
Wallmart oil (dot 3) for all but 50 hours Pensoil for that 50. The only
carbon I see is a
little on the piston domes and some around the exhaust port where the
gasket sits because the gasket openings are smaller than the port opening.
I fixed that problem by cutting the gasket holes a little larger to match
the exhaust port hole.
Get a compression tester - $25. If your
rings are stuck your compression should be down from factory specs.
Mine are still 120 lbs - like new.
These 503's are tougher than you think if you run them a couple of hours a
week - that's only 100 hrs year.
And I'm not telling anyone not to decarbon their engines
<http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part47.pdf>http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part47.pdf
Message 24
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| Subject: | FireFly for sale |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: N27SB@aol.com
To All,
Bryan Melborn and I are making good progress on our mirror image FireFly
Float Planes. We have incorporated everything that we learned from the prototype
#007. I am going to offer the #007 for sale at Osh. 06. I would like to give
everyone on the Kolb list a head start. This is the FireFly that is featured in
the July Issue of Sport Aviation. Contact me offline if you are interested.
Steve Boetto
FF #007
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Two Stroke Oil - personal ruin |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
OK, Possum.... Smarty... go ahead... I'm down...kick me again... I can take
it... Hell, I've been married 40 years this summer.... I can take
anything....
646 hours without a decarbon, eh...? Never had the jugs off, eh...?
Walmart mouse-milk oil, eh...? Sheesh.. I'm surprised you even bothered to
use oil....
You still got 120 lbs of compression....? Hell, that's nothing... I'll bet
I easily cleaned 120 lbs of carbon out of the Austrian nightmare...using my
teeth and toothpicks...only took a full day in the nice, cool, Florida
sun... by the time I was finishing up, I was starting to actually ENJOY
it...!!!
Compression tester you say... ? I had so much carbon in my cylinders I
couldn't screw a compression tester into the holes with a sledge hammer to
get it started in the threads.... when light went in the hole it was
absorbed and vanished....dental tools were bitten off at the handle when
poked into those plug holes... when I removed the bolts, little black carbon
fingers emerged from the ports and held the manifolds in place...
From where I lie, hour for hour, dollar for dollar, this 447 is, without
question, the most insanely filthy, unreliable and diabolically evil
contrivance ever placed on the surface of the planet for mankind's transient
amusement.... with the sole possible exception, of course, of the
formidible Crazy Louise, my first wife....who operates under a wholly
separate set of pain standards.... and to think, I actually volunteered up
good hard-earned American dollars to get involved with each of them....
OK, Possum... you have my undivided, if somewhat inadequate, attention...
Where did I fail...? What was the grand omission or commission that
reduced me to this...? I pay my taxes.... I don't buy cheap cigars or
cheap gin... What could I have done differently to get 646, hell even 246
hours out of this miserable apparatus without being reduced to the smoking
shell of a man you see prostrate before you tonight....? Hell, I'll drink
the oil myself...! I beseech you, Sir.... Share..!
Shattered Beauford...
FireFly lawn chair #076
Brandon FL
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "possums" <possums@mindspring.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Two Stroke Oil/Full Synthetic & Plugs
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
>
>
> I am now 646 hours without a decarbon. Never had the jugs off. I check
> every
> 50 hours or so (when I repaint my muffler) with a dental mirror and the
> spark plugs out , intake/exhaust manifolds off.
>
> I have a 503 dual-carb with an E-gearbox. This plane and engine is just a
> little 6 years old. The engine is set up like it came out of the box minus
> the fuel injection. I used the
> Wallmart oil (dot 3) for all but 50 hours Pensoil for that 50. The only
> carbon I see is a
> little on the piston domes and some around the exhaust port where the
> gasket sits because the gasket openings are smaller than the port opening.
> I fixed that problem by cutting the gasket holes a little larger to match
> the exhaust port hole.
> Get a compression tester - $25. If your
> rings are stuck your compression should be down from factory specs.
> Mine are still 120 lbs - like new.
> These 503's are tougher than you think if you run them a couple of hours a
> week - that's only 100 hrs year.
>
> And I'm not telling anyone not to decarbon their engines
>
> <http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part47.pdf>http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part47.pdf
>
>
>
Message 26
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Cat36Fly@aol.com
The "homebuilt" that went down yesterday on Marylands Eastern shore has been
reported as a "Hummelbird". I beleive this is a scratch built airplane
using only purchased plans.
The FAA is conducting an investigation according to the newspaper.
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Two Stroke Oil - personal ruin |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: N27SB@aol.com
In a message dated 7/20/2005 8:10:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
beauford@tampabay.rr.com writes:
> Shattered Beauford...
> FireFly lawn chair #076
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Two Stroke Oil - personal ruin |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: N27SB@aol.com
In a message dated 7/20/2005 8:10:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
beauford@tampabay.rr.com writes:
> Shattered Beauford...
> FireFly lawn chair #076
>
Beauford, I prefer your prior phrase of "Stupid Little Airplane" circa 2004
or SLA
steve
do not archive
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Two Stroke Oil - personal ruin |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Two Stroke Oil - personal ruin
OK, Possum.... Smarty... go ahead... I'm down...kick me again... I can take
it... I've been married 40 years this summer.... I can take
anything....
646 hours without a decarbon, eh...? Never had the jugs off, eh...?
Walmart almost-free mouse-milk oil, eh...? Sheesh.. I'm surprised you even
bothered to
use oil.... This is like hearing that someone else won the Powerball...
You still have 120 lbs of compression....? That's nothing... I had 120
lbs of black crud...
I'll bet I easily cleaned that weight of rock-hard carbon out of the
Austrian nightmare...using my
fingernails, teeth and toothpicks...only took a full day in the nice, cool,
Florida
sun... by the time I was finishing up, I was starting to actually ENJOY
it...!!!
Compression tester you say... ? I had so much carbon in my cylinders I
couldn't screw a compression tester into the holes with a sledge hammer to
get it started in the threads.... when light went into the hole it was
absorbed and vanished....dental tools were bitten off at the handle when
poked into those plug holes... when I removed the bolts, little black
carbon
fingers emerged from the ports and held the manifolds in place... NASA has
put out feelers to me as a prime source of re-entry heat shield materials..
From where I lie, hour for hour, dollar for dollar, this 447 is, without
question, the most insanely filthy, unreliable and diabolically evil
contrivance ever placed on the surface of the planet for mankind's
transient
amusement.... with the sole possible exception, of course, of the
formidible Crazy Louise, my first wife....who operates under a wholly
separate set of pain standards.... and to think, I actually volunteered up
good hard-earned American dollars to get involved with each of them....
OK, Possum... you have my undivided, if somewhat inadequate, attention...
Where did I fail...? What was the grand omission or commission that
reduced me to this Rotax moment...? I pay my taxes.... I don't buy cheap
cigars or
cheap gin... What could I have done differently to get 646, sigh ..even
246
hours out of this miserable apparatus without being reduced to the smoking
shell of a man you see prostrate before you tonight....? If it will
improve the situation, I'll drink
the oil myself...! I beseech you, Sir.... Share..!
FireFly lawn chair #076
Brandon FL
Do Not Archive
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "possums" <possums@mindspring.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 7:08 PM
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Two Stroke Oil/Full Synthetic & Plugs
>
>
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
>>
>>
>> I am now 646 hours without a decarbon. Never had the jugs off. I check
>> every
>> 50 hours or so (when I repaint my muffler) with a dental mirror and the
>> spark plugs out , intake/exhaust manifolds off.
>>
>> I have a 503 dual-carb with an E-gearbox. This plane and engine is just a
>> little 6 years old. The engine is set up like it came out of the box
>> minus
>> the fuel injection. I used the
>> Wallmart oil (dot 3) for all but 50 hours Pensoil for that 50. The only
>> carbon I see is a
>> little on the piston domes and some around the exhaust port where the
>> gasket sits because the gasket openings are smaller than the port
>> opening.
>> I fixed that problem by cutting the gasket holes a little larger to match
>> the exhaust port hole.
>> Get a compression tester - $25. If your
>> rings are stuck your compression should be down from factory specs.
>> Mine are still 120 lbs - like new.
>> These 503's are tougher than you think if you run them a couple of hours
>> a
>> week - that's only 100 hrs year.
>>
>> And I'm not telling anyone not to decarbon their engines
>>
>> <http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part47.pdf>http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part47.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Two Stroke Oil - personal ruin |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
At 08:16 PM 7/20/2005, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
>
>OK, Possum.... Smarty... go ahead... I'm down...kick me again... I can take
>it... Hell, I've been married 40 years this summer.... I can take
>anything....
>
>OK, Possum... you have my undivided, if somewhat inadequate, attention...
>Where did I fail...? What was the grand omission or commission that
>reduced me to this...? I pay my taxes.... I don't buy cheap cigars or
>cheap gin... What could I have done differently to get 646, hell even 246
>hours out of this miserable apparatus without being reduced to the smoking
>shell of a man you see prostrate before you tonight....? Hell, I'll drink
>the oil myself...! I beseech you, Sir.... Share..!
>
>Shattered Beauford...
>FireFly lawn chair #076
Just lucky I guess. I used to have trouble with my old 447 too,
if it makes you feel any better.
--------------------
>Tom - Should I decarbon the engine if I can't see any carbon.
What's the best way to check the rings??
From: "Tom Olenik" <olenik-aviation@buyitsellitfixit.com>
I usually reach in and push in on them with my finger. You should feel them
move. Really though, with that much time on it without any kind of
teardown, the engine doesn't owe you much. Since the time has been put on
fast, you have been able to do that long but even engines that get time fast
like that are probably likely to need at least some attention by 500.
I just talked to someone with a Drifter 503 this week who had a crank fail
at 500 hours and crack the crank case. The engine had never been apart and
all he ever did was run it. He and all his friends were speculating at what
could have caused the failure. To me it's pretty simple. Wear. His
buddies were going to be ragging him for forgetting his oil or something,
but the pistons were A ok, and the pistons will almost always fail in a
lubrication failure before the bearings.
If I was the one writing the TBO for the 503 I would put it at 450 because
that is about where I start seeing crank failures even with well kept
engines. Of course I see some with as little as 130 hours, but those are
either from a lot of storage or from constant over revving.
If I were to write it for the 447, it would be 600 hours and it would be
closer to 900 hours for the 377. I'm one that things the 300 hours is about
right for the 582 though. If you have had the opportunity to look at
various crankshafts in 2-stroke engines of this size you will notice that
the lower rod area on the Rotax crankshaft has much less slop side to side
and less of an area for lubrication to make it into the bearing. The 377
and 447 have a slit on either side of the lower rod, but the 503 and 582
only have a slit on one side. If you compare that to a Cuyuna 430 or some
other 2-stroke, the other two stroke will usually have more of the bearing
exposed to allow for better lubrication.
Now don't get me wrong. The Rotax engines are good engines and well proven,
but most things can be made better, and the crank seals, and lower rod
design is one area that could use improvement in my opinion.
Tom Olenik
Olenik Aviation
http://www.buyitsellitfixit.com/rotax.htm
http://www.buyitsellitfixit.com/2si-engines.htm
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Synthetic 447 Sin |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@telepath.com>
> The manufacturer set the oil/fuel ratio for some reason. I do not
> know what that is. I have heard that the crank bearings required a
> certain ratio fuel/oil. That excess oil could cause as many
problems
> as too little oil. But that is strictly hearsay at this point.
Not at all.
http://www.mcnallyinstitute.com/CDweb/b-html/b011.htm
http://www.bearings.machinedesign.com/guiEdits/Content/BDE_6_4/
bdemech_a01-2.aspx
http://www.timken.com/industries/torrington/catalog/pdf/general/form
640.pdf
Excess lubrication in a ball bearing sets up a hyrodynamic wedge
that skids the ball, overheats the lubricant and galls the race(s)
leading to bearing failure.
The crank bearing used in the 503 is, I recall, a 6207, good for up to
11,000 rpm using oil lubrication at not more than 350F (assuming
52100 steel). That includes bearings with double seals that do not
receive an oil-mist type lubrication but are sealed (true, not used in a
two stroke application because one needs some degree of cooling
for the bearing in a two stroke). If you are coming anywhere near
350F on a crank bearing you've got other, more immediate
concerns!). At a paltry 6000 rpm, 54% of rated max, oil lubrication
required is at best minimal. The thinnest of films will suffice. At a
max rated load for this bearing (25.7 kN...appx 5700 pound-force)
the forces generated by a 503 come to about half of the rated
bearing capacity (obtained from some calculus involving
Experimental Stress Anlaysis from The Internal Combustion Engine
in Theory and Practice, Taylor, Vol 2.).
Crank bearings are the least of the issues. Wrist pin bearings,
because of the oscillating nature of their service, require sufficient oil
mist lubrication to dispose of heat and not because of any lack of
lubrication issues given an appropriate oil ratio....whether that be
100:1 or 50:1, using the oil manufacturers recommendation. These
units do not rotate, per se, and are not engineered to do so. Where
you do run into trouble is when the oil varnishes the race from
excessive heat and causes the rollers to skid, leading to galling and
eventual seizure.
Piston skirts and rings must receive lubrication but that is vanishingly
small as well. The majority of problems lie with insufficient/incorrect
cylinder choke and associated piston/ cylinder clearances. Witness
oil scraper rings on four strokes which lie at the bottom rung of the
piston lands. Just how much oil do you think is left for the top rings?
Not much.
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
'71 SV, 492TC
Elmore City, OK
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Synthetic 447 Sin |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: bryan green <lgreen1@sc.rr.com>
After seeing my hero Beaufort reduced to the pile of carbonated rubble
he is today I say the heck with oil and gas also. This only leads down a
dark and dismal hole to the point of no return. I plan to avoid all this
by burning used cooking oil in my new 447 just like the French fry man
does in his VW Rabbit. :~)
Bryan Green
Do not archive
Jim Baker wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@telepath.com>
>
>
>
>>The manufacturer set the oil/fuel ratio for some reason. I do not
>>know what that is. I have heard that the crank bearings required a
>>certain ratio fuel/oil. That excess oil could cause as many
>>
>>
>problems
>
>
>>as too little oil. But that is strictly hearsay at this point.
>>
>>
>
>Not at all.
>
>http://www.mcnallyinstitute.com/CDweb/b-html/b011.htm
>
>http://www.bearings.machinedesign.com/guiEdits/Content/BDE_6_4/
>bdemech_a01-2.aspx
>
>http://www.timken.com/industries/torrington/catalog/pdf/general/form
>640.pdf
>
>Excess lubrication in a ball bearing sets up a hyrodynamic wedge
>that skids the ball, overheats the lubricant and galls the race(s)
>leading to bearing failure.
>
>The crank bearing used in the 503 is, I recall, a 6207, good for up to
>11,000 rpm using oil lubrication at not more than 350F (assuming
>52100 steel). That includes bearings with double seals that do not
>receive an oil-mist type lubrication but are sealed (true, not used in a
>two stroke application because one needs some degree of cooling
>for the bearing in a two stroke). If you are coming anywhere near
>350F on a crank bearing you've got other, more immediate
>concerns!). At a paltry 6000 rpm, 54% of rated max, oil lubrication
>required is at best minimal. The thinnest of films will suffice. At a
>max rated load for this bearing (25.7 kN...appx 5700 pound-force)
>the forces generated by a 503 come to about half of the rated
>bearing capacity (obtained from some calculus involving
>Experimental Stress Anlaysis from The Internal Combustion Engine
>in Theory and Practice, Taylor, Vol 2.).
>
>Crank bearings are the least of the issues. Wrist pin bearings,
>because of the oscillating nature of their service, require sufficient oil
>mist lubrication to dispose of heat and not because of any lack of
>lubrication issues given an appropriate oil ratio....whether that be
>100:1 or 50:1, using the oil manufacturers recommendation. These
>units do not rotate, per se, and are not engineered to do so. Where
>you do run into trouble is when the oil varnishes the race from
>excessive heat and causes the rollers to skid, leading to galling and
>eventual seizure.
>
>Piston skirts and rings must receive lubrication but that is vanishingly
>small as well. The majority of problems lie with insufficient/incorrect
>cylinder choke and associated piston/ cylinder clearances. Witness
>oil scraper rings on four strokes which lie at the bottom rung of the
>piston lands. Just how much oil do you think is left for the top rings?
>Not much.
>
>Jim Baker
>580.788.2779
>'71 SV, 492TC
>Elmore City, OK
>
>
>
>
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