Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:17 AM - Re: Hello (Icrashrc@aol.com)
2. 06:21 AM - Re: Twin Engine Firestar 2 (Christopher Armstrong)
3. 06:40 AM - Re: Hello (Mitty)
4. 06:42 AM - Oshkosh (Mitty)
5. 06:51 AM - Re: Twin Engine Firestar 2 (Kirk Smith)
6. 08:01 AM - Re: Hello (Richard Pike)
7. 09:44 AM - The 447 - Part Two (skyrider2)
8. 11:24 AM - [ Ellery Batchelder Jr ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
9. 11:55 AM - Re: [ Ellery Batchelder Jr ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (dama)
10. 12:05 PM - Re: [ Ellery Batchelder Jr ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (John Hauck)
11. 12:43 PM - Re: Twin Engine Firestar 2 (Jim Baker)
12. 12:46 PM - Re: Twin Engine Firestar 2 (Jim Baker)
13. 01:36 PM - Re: Twin Engine Firestar 2 (PATRICK LADD)
14. 01:44 PM - Re: the 447 - Part Two (PATRICK LADD)
15. 02:10 PM - Re: [ Ellery Batchelder Jr ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
16. 02:40 PM - Long XC in Original FS (John Hauck)
17. 02:45 PM - Website Update (John Williamson)
18. 03:32 PM - Re: Website Update (John Hauck)
19. 04:36 PM - Re: the 447 - Part Two (Beauford)
20. 05:01 PM - Re: [ Ellery Batchelder Jr ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Kirk Smith)
21. 07:01 PM - Re: [ Ellery Batchelder Jr ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
22. 07:35 PM - Firestar Adverse Roll (John Hauck)
23. 08:07 PM - Re: Firestar Adverse Roll (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
24. 08:20 PM - Re: Firestar Adverse Roll (John Hauck)
25. 09:15 PM - Re: Twin Engine Firestar 2 (Christopher Armstrong)
Message 1
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Icrashrc@aol.com
Mitty,
The Kolb homecoming is when all the Kolb airplanes fly back to the
factory. They do this so the Kolb pilots can visit with each other. The friendly
people at the Kolb factory knows when this is going to happen every year so
they have food and entertainment arranged. The Kolb airplanes have all been
programmed to do this magical feat on September 23, 24, and 25. :-)
Russ,
Ooops. do not archive
jdmurr@juno.com,
I found out the first time I was ever in a plane that my RC
experience was helpful. On the other hand it was a T6 Texan so the wingloading
was
a little higher than I was used too!
Ralph,
2 1/2 hours! Wow. I already have 6 hours logged. 3 in a Challenger
so I don't know if those count or not. LOL
Paul Petty,
Yes, Paul Ditsler and I brought the 1/6 scale Firefly. He did
most of the work on that one. I just helped with the engineering and power
system. We'll have the Firefly with us this year too. It flies very well now.
Are the flaps normally hard to operate on the Kolbra or is it a
leverage issue? At less than 2 lb. the flap actuator looks like a reasonable
solution.
To all. I forgot to add a link in my first message. Those that are interested
can surf over to
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?icrashrc
Just a few pictures there that I've taken over the years...
Scott Thompson
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 2
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| Subject: | Twin Engine Firestar 2 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" <tophera@centurytel.net>
Just based on being around ultralights and very light planes powered by
2-strokes since 1983 my experience with Cuyuna and Rotax and only what I
have heard about Hirth. The 503 has earned my respect as the most reliable
of the 2-stroke twins by far (and its record isn't much to brag about). The
Hirth engines have never achieved nearly the same level of reliability. I
wish they would since they are very powerful and light, and affordable. But
they have not. Running two engines doubles your chance of engine failure...
simply because you have two engines. If each of those engines is twice as
likely to have a problem you are up to 4 times, and I think that is about
right. If the engines share any systems, fuel, electrical, or mechanical in
the form of overlapping props then odds are you might have both engines fail
at the same time as well.
Will a Firestar fly well with one 30 horse engine off center? (I read belt
drives and think of the old one I used to fly with the built in centrifugal
clutch, which is why I was thinking that the prop would be windmilling. I
suppose the new Hirth belt drive doesn't use a clutch.) Probably not too
bad, but it will not be perfect.
The key line of my post was the last one though, where I said I think it is
a great idea, and I am looking forward to see the results. That line wasn't
supposed to be taken too cynically (the rest was, at least a bit.) I do
think it is a great idea and I do hope it works well.
Christopher Armstrong
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of woody
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Twin Engine Firestar 2
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "woody" <duesouth@govital.net>
> I think that this project has a very good chance of resulting in an engine
> out since you are trading the very best two-stroke out there for two with
a
> less then stellar record,
Please explain that comment and give facts to prove the statement. Just
curious.
Message 3
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Mitty <benny_bee_01@yahoo.com>
Gotcha Icrashrc :)
Good think you explained.What RC do you fly?
Do not archive
--- Icrashrc@aol.com wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Icrashrc@aol.com
>
> Mitty,
> The Kolb homecoming is when all the Kolb
> airplanes fly back to the
> factory. They do this so the Kolb pilots can visit
> with each other. The friendly
> people at the Kolb factory knows when this is going
> to happen every year so
> they have food and entertainment arranged. The Kolb
> airplanes have all been
> programmed to do this magical feat on September 23,
> 24, and 25. :-)
>
> Russ,
> Ooops. do not archive
>
> jdmurr@juno.com,
> I found out the first time I was ever in
> a plane that my RC
> experience was helpful. On the other hand it was a
> T6 Texan so the wingloading was
> a little higher than I was used too!
>
> Ralph,
> 2 1/2 hours! Wow. I already have 6 hours
> logged. 3 in a Challenger
> so I don't know if those count or not. LOL
>
> Paul Petty,
> Yes, Paul Ditsler and I brought the
> 1/6 scale Firefly. He did
> most of the work on that one. I just helped with the
> engineering and power
> system. We'll have the Firefly with us this year
> too. It flies very well now.
> Are the flaps normally hard to operate on
> the Kolbra or is it a
> leverage issue? At less than 2 lb. the flap actuator
> looks like a reasonable
> solution.
>
> To all. I forgot to add a link in my first message.
> Those that are interested
> can surf over to
>
> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?icrashrc
> Just a few pictures there that I've taken over the
> years...
>
> Scott Thompson
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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0.06 FROM_HAS_ULINE_NUMS From": contains.an.underline.and.numbers/letters@roxy.matronics.com
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Mitty <benny_bee_01@yahoo.com>
Hello fellows.If anybody interested I got about two
dozen pictures from OSHKOSH.Three of my friends went
to see the planes and brought 1500 pics back.I have
selected ones.
I can upload them to the forum or attach to
messages.Admin,let me know if i can.
Mitty
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Twin Engine Firestar 2 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
. Running two engines doubles your chance of engine failure...
> simply because you have two engines.
Must be why there are so many twin engine planes. Sort of like saying 2 sets
of mags doubles your chances of mag failure.
Do not archive
Message 6
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Went and looked at your pictures, can not figure out where the East
Tennessee Ultralight field is at. Thought I knew of all the ultralight
strips east of Morristown, but maybe not? Or maybe it is not east of
Morristown? (Which is what we locals mean when we talk about East
Tennessee...) Anyway, where is it?
PS - here is a link to fly-in's in East Tennessee this fall -
http://users.planetc.com/pensinger/
click on "activities"
Come see us -
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 03:16 AM 8/13/05 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Icrashrc@aol.com
><snip>
>To all. I forgot to add a link in my first message. Those that are interested
>can surf over to
> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?icrashrc
>Just a few pictures there that I've taken over the years...
>
>Scott Thompson
>
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 7
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| Subject: | The 447 - Part Two |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "skyrider2" <skyrider2@earthlink.net>
Beauford,
I'm really sorry that you've had such problems with the 447. I don't have
much experience with that engine, only had one plane with a 447 on it, back
in the 80's and it was a demonstrator that was sold before we put 20 hours
on it.
But if the VISA bill isn't too steep, it'll all be worth it to you when you
get your bird back in the air. And for me, getting to read your excellent
rendition, creative writing at it's finest, had me ROTFLMAO.
You shoud write a book..........
Fly Safely,
Doug Lawton
NE Georgia & Whitwell TN
Matthews Field and Gliderport
Message 8
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| Subject: | [ Ellery Batchelder Jr ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Ellery Batchelder Jr <ElleryWeld@aol.com>
Lists: Kolb-List,Ultralight-List
Subject: REBUILD on ORIGINAL FIRESTAR
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/ElleryWeld@aol.com.08.13.2005/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures@matronics.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: [ Ellery Batchelder Jr ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "dama" <dama@mindspring.com>
Thanks for sharing, Ellery. That Firestar looks like, well...it's on fire...
Kip
do not archive
http://www.springeraviation.net/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Email List Photo Shares" <pictures@matronics.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: [ Ellery Batchelder Jr ] : New Email List Photo Share
Available!
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares
<pictures@matronics.com>
>
>
> A new Email List Photo Share is available:
>
> Poster: Ellery Batchelder Jr <ElleryWeld@aol.com>
>
> Lists: Kolb-List,Ultralight-List
>
> Subject: REBUILD on ORIGINAL FIRESTAR
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/ElleryWeld@aol.com.08.13.2005/index.html
>
>
> o Main Photo Share Index
>
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
>
> o Submitting a Photo Share
>
> If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include
the
> following information along with your email message and files:
>
> 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
> 2) Your Full Name:
> 3) Your Email Address:
> 4) One line Subject description:
> 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
> 6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
>
> Email the information above and your files and photos to:
>
> pictures@matronics.com
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: [ Ellery Batchelder Jr ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
|
| Lists: Kolb-List,Ultralight-List
|
| Subject: REBUILD on ORIGINAL FIRESTAR
Ellery/Gang:
Looks good.
How about some longer gear legs and some 15.00 X 6 X 6 tires???
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Twin Engine Firestar 2 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@telepath.com>
> P.S. To be fair: When it worked, it was very powerful, easily 20-
25%
> better performance over a 503, but it simply isn't reliable, and
> there's no one nearby that can help diagnose it and repair it.
My non-injected 2704 has been cooking along for 460 hours with
one set of plugs changed... and that's it! After watching the boys
from Benningen work on one of the first injected F30s at Oshkosh a
few years back, I decided against that route since they wouldn't give
the injection/timing mapping software to anyone, nor the Flash ROM
writer.
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
'71 SV, 492TC
Elmore City, OK
Message 12
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| Subject: | Twin Engine Firestar 2 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@telepath.com>
> If each of those engines is twice as likely to have a problem
> you are up to 4 times
Statistically, it doesn't work that way. Multivariate entities are not that
arithmatically simple.
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
'71 SV, 492TC
Elmore City, OK
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Twin Engine Firestar 2 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
more then quadrupling your odds of an engine out,
Hi,
I dont really follow the mathematics of that. Its rather like the idea that
if you are afraid of there being a bomb on your flight you should take a
bomb with you. The chances of there being two bombs on your flight a
statistically very poor indeed..
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
--
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: the 447 - Part Two |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Very funny. Part 3 ?
Pat
do not archive
--
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: [ Ellery Batchelder Jr ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ElleryWeld@aol.com
Thanks John H. I am hoping to meet you one of these days You inspire me and I
am going to try and make it to the Kolb Homecoming but it will be a long trip
for me but I am looking at it as a bunch of short trips and I have faith in
the Kolb planes
I got a chance to try her out today and did a bunch of landings & take offs
only had to make a small adjustment in aleron controll linkage
I am headed north tomorrow morning to one of the smallest flyins in Maine
but one of the most fun ones
Original Firestar Plus :o) She flys again
Ellery Batchelder Jr
In Maine
Do Not Archive
Message 16
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| Subject: | Long XC in Original FS |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
I
| am going to try and make it to the Kolb Homecoming but it will be a
long trip
| for me but I am looking at it as a bunch of short trips and I have
faith in
| the Kolb planes
| Ellery Batchelder Jr
Ellery B/All:
Super!!!
Some of the most memorable flights I made were way back in the
beginning, flying the Ultrastar and original Firestar. As the matter
of fact, for those new guys that do not know, my original FS made two
flights to the NE US in 1988 and 1989. Powered with the point ign
447. It was a blast. All navigation back then was pilotage and ded
reckoning, mag compass and sectional. Navigation, fuel management
were enough to keep you on your toes most of the time. Yes, I did get
a little misoriented a few times. One more reason, back then, to
carry 18 gal of fuel on an UL.
Cross country flights are a series of short hops tied together over a
period of time. Good luck. I am rooting for you to safely make that
flight to the Kolb Homecoming!!!
john h
MKIII/912ULS
Titus, Alabama
Message 17
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot2@comcast.net>
I just finished uploading my website update to cover this last little jaunt
up to Leadville, Colorado. (Address down below)
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolb Kolbra, Rotax 912ULS, 909 hours
http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot
do not archive
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Website Update |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
| I just finished uploading my website update to cover this last
little jaunt
| up to Leadville, Colorado. (Address down below)
|
| John Williamson
Hi John W/All:
Great flight and photos.
Did you get your Leadville Airport Landing Certificate?
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: the 447 - Part Two |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Pat...
Don't make fun of us... this ain't easy (as they say in South Texas...)
Part 3 will be early tomorrow AM when I try once again to run-in this stupid
little Nazi engine... Near as I can tell, all is in readiness for the event.
Spent 8 hours out there on the griddle today, re-hanging the engine, doing
an overhaul of the wiring harness, fuel system, etc. Ambient temp was 98F
in the shade alongside the ugly Kolb trailer... I will not repeat the
mistake of taking the thermometer tomorrow... too much of a morale killer...
Thanks to you Brits, however, recovery is now at hand... I just mixed an
enormous London Gin and tonic over crushed ice, with half a key lime from
the tree in the back yard wrung-out over the top... Next stop is sitting on
a stool in the cool shower drinking it through a straw for 30 minutes or
so... That therapy commences as soon as I finish this note... God Save
The Queen...!
Cheers Right back at'cha...
Freshly Baked Beauford
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: the 447 - Part Two
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "PATRICK LADD" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>
> Very funny. Part 3 ?
>
> Pat
>
> do not archive
>
>
> --
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: [ Ellery Batchelder Jr ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
That's one snappy lookin bird Ellery.......:>)
Do not archive
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: [ Ellery Batchelder Jr ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ElleryWeld@aol.com
Thanks Kirk
I had another chance to fly this evening after the wind stoped air smoothed
out and cooled down a bit and the only problem I seem to have was when I try
to fly at faster speeds 70 to 80 MPH I had to apply quite a bit of left
pressure on the stick to keep it level in flight, but at lower speeds its not
really a problem I have adjusted aleron linkeage a few times and cant seem to
figure out what it needs
I will keep trying to adjust but mabe if anyone else has had this same
problem they would let me know of a fix for this , Thanks in advance if you can
help
But that Trim controll I have added to the elevator works real slick I setup
and landed a few landings using that
Ellery in Maine
Original Firestar Plus
do not archive
Message 22
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| Subject: | Firestar Adverse Roll |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
I have adjusted aleron linkeage a few times and cant seem to
| figure out what it needs
Ellery/All:
Adjusting aileron linkage to correct adverse roll will not work. All
you are doing is displacing the control stick position laterally.
I used aileron trim tab on my right aileron to fly it up and correct
the adverse roll my Firestar had to the left.
On my MKIII, occassionally, I will have an adverse roll problem. I
correct this with a bungy cord trim tab I can slide up and down the
control stick to add and decrease lateral pressure to keep the
airplane trimmed out in roll attitude.
Take care,
john h
MKIII/912ULS
Titus, Alabama
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar Adverse Roll |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ElleryWeld@aol.com
I dont think they make a bungie cord that will be strong enough for this one
But a ground adjustable trim tab would probably work ok but I would have to
set it for what ever speed I would like to travel at and hope it wouldnt make my
controll go the other way on slow flight now you got me thinking about making
an inflight trim controll on the aileron that I can reach from the seat
outside the cockpit
Original firestar Plus
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
do not archive
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar Adverse Roll |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
| set it for what ever speed I would like to travel at and hope it
wouldnt make my
| controll go the other way on slow flight | Ellery Batchelder Jr.
Ellery/All:
I made my trim tabs for aileron and elevator for my original FS out of
.016 6061T6 aluminum sheet. Set both of them for cruise speed, 5,800
rpm. Lucked out. The little FS stayed trimmed up in roll and pitch
through out its speed range. Also had one on the rudder, IIRC. CRS
is hell. I'd have to go back and find some old photos to confirm the
rudder trim tab. hehehe
john h
MKIII/912ULS
Titus, Alabama
Message 25
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| Subject: | Twin Engine Firestar 2 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" <tophera@centurytel.net>
Statistically, it doesn't work that way. Multivariate entities are not that
arithmatically simple.
Well, here is how it I think it works, statistically:
Probability of an engine failure is number of engine failures/number of
flights.
Using the Multiplication Theorem for Independent Events
If the events A and B are independent then
P(AB) = P(A)* P(B). So if one engine fails 1 time in every 1000 flights
both engine will fail once every 100000 flights. SO this is good.
But how often will one of the two engines fail?
Here we need to use the Addition Rule
If the event A1, A2, ..., An are pairwise mutually exclusive events then
P(A1+ A2+ ...+An)= P(A1)+P(A2)+ ...+P(An)
So if the first engine fails once in every 1000 flights, and the second
engine fails once in every 1000 flights together they will fail 2 times in
1000 flight, or twice as often. If the probability of each engine failing
moves to once in every 500 flights, then for 2 of them it is 2 times in
every 500 flights. One rotax 503 at 1/1000 versus two Hirths at 2/500 is 4
times as much.
So what do you think is wrong with my math?
As to the real twin engine data, do they actually fail twice as often.
Probability is that they do, and the data supports it, but the second engine
does keep the plane from crashing often enough that accident rates due to
engine failures are lower for twins. This assumes of course that the
engines have the same failure rate. If you add in a higher failure rate for
the twins engines then you are going to be somewhat less well off then just
going from a single to a twin.
Here is a clip of some data from avweb:
"For the group of light twins we looked at, mechanical failures of the
engine or propeller were responsible for One about 3% of all accidents.
Breaking that down, 15.3% of all accidents were due to mechanical failures,
and 20.8% of those involved the engine or propeller.
In contrast, roughly 8% of all accidents in high-performance singles were
attributed to engine or propeller failure: 17% of accidents were
mechanicals, but nearly 50% of those involved the engine or prop.
The statistics showed that a light twin is about equally likely to have a
mechanical-caused accident as a high-performance single. But the twin's
mechanical problem is most likely to be gear-related while the single's is
most likely to be engine/prop-related. A single is about two-and-a-half
times more likely to have an accident due to engine/prop failure than a twin
(8% versus 3%). And if we assume that a twin is twice as likely to have an
engine/prop failure (since it has twice as many to fail), then we can
conclude that an engine/prop failure in a single is five times more likely
to result in an accident than an engine/prop failure in a twin.
So are you any safer flying a light twin than a high-performance single? In
terms of the overall and serious accident rates, the answer seems clearly to
be no. But your risk profile changes somewhat: in the twin, you're less
likely to be hurt by an engine failure, and more likely to be victimized by
something else."
http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/184438-1.html this is some interesting
reading... in part it says:
"Have you ever wondered why a manufacturer puts more engines on an airframe?
There are many people who think that it's for safety; that a twin is safer
than a single. After all, if one engine fails, well, you just keep on flying
on the remaining one, right?
No. When one engine on a twin fails, you don't lose half of your excess
thrust, you typically lose 80% to 90% of your excess thrust, which means
that if you were climbing at 1200 fpm with both engines, if you configure
and fly the aircraft perfectly after an engine failure, you will likely see
around 200 fpm, which is pretty bad.
Most light twins, when operated anywhere near gross weight, have very
marginal single-engine performance, and are very intolerant of pilot error
in achieving a positive rate of climb. A non-turbocharged twin will
typically have a single-engine service ceiling of around 5000 foot density
altitude. So, an engine failure in cruise in summer means you're likely
going to descend.
And remember, with two engines, you're twice as likely to have an engine
failure."
http://avstop.com/Technical/twins.htm another interesting technical chat
about twins
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