Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:04 AM - Re: Kolb Kwit (David L. Bigelow)
2. 06:41 AM - Don G. - Prop size on Firefly (Mark Anliker)
3. 07:12 AM - Re: Don G. - Prop size on Firefly (Richard Pike)
4. 07:35 AM - Kolb Kwit (ray anderson)
5. 11:11 AM - Re: Don G. - Prop size on Firefly (Don Gherardini)
6. 11:30 AM - Re: Don G. - Prop size on Firefly (Don Gherardini)
7. 12:28 PM - Re: Re: Kolb Kwit (Ed Chmielewski)
8. 10:22 PM - Flyin Driving Directions (skyrider2)
Message 1
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow" <dlbigelow@verizon.net>
Ed,
There's plenty of room in flying for differing technique. However, there are basic
parameters that have been proven to work very well over the years, and a
power-on approach on a relatively standard glide path is one of them. I do believe
you are teaching a dated method. Light single engine aircraft are expected
to fly patterns at most busy airports in a manner where most of the pattern
is not within gliding distance of the runway. A 2-3 degree glide path is not
a shallow dragged in approach. I can't imagine an FAA inspector pulling the
engine on someone flying a Cessna 172 at 1/2 mile when the plane is on the VASI.
Would the plane make it to the threshold - probably not. Is the pilot flying
a safe stabilized approach - yes he is.
And yes, I've flown all those types of aircraft. My whole point in these posts
is to share a lifetime of accident free experience. While there are many high
time pilots on this list who don't need a bit of help, there are also quite
few new and low time pilots who can profit from the accumulated knowledge of many
aviators over many years. If you want to fly a dive at the ground, full flaps,
idle approach, be my guest. There's not much room for error if you choose
to do it that way. Get a little slow, or round out a bit high, and you will
experience the "Kolb Kwit". Helps sell a lot of replacement gear legs.
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, 503 DCDI
"Time: 09:39:34 AM PST US
From: "Ed Chmielewski" <edchmiel@mindspring.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Kwit
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ed Chmielewski" <edchmiel@mindspring.com>
Dave,
The practices you're discussing are your opinions, which may work
for you, but don't promote them with language like "any instructor or
professional pilot will tell you". As a longtime instructor and
professional pilot, I would never tell someone that a certain glide path
somehow 'works' for all aircraft. I especially teach 'power-off' landings
in singles, and frequently practice single-engine approaches in twins. I
see nothing wrong in using 'minimum-power' for approaches, but do see a
problem with flying an ultralight in the same manner as 'jet fighters, jet
airliners, light twins, Cessna 150's, gyro copters,'... (Have you in fact
flown at least one of each type? Not to be harsh, but if not, how would you
know?)
The check-pilot is looking for a stabilized approach, which may be
power-on. He'd be the first one to pull the power off in a single if he saw
you were beyond a safe, power-off gliding distance from a suitable
runway/landing site. I only use flaps (or landing gear) when needed, but
don't 'drag' them around with power.
Please don't invoke my (or others') credentials in lieu of your own
in the future.
Be safe.
Ed in JXN (MI)
MkII/503"
Message 2
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| Subject: | Don G. - Prop size on Firefly |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Mark Anliker <manliker@uiuc.edu>
>Time: 04:30:07 PM PST US
>From: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Prop size//firefly
>Hey Mark..
>
>Did you Fly that Firefly prior to the 66x 30 with any other prop?...if so,
>what size and tell me what the difference was in performance...
>Don Gherardini
Don,
I used a 60" Ivo before. After 3 engine outs and 1 scored piston I decided
to try something else. I never knew what was the correct pitch and number
of blades to get a happy balance between getting adequate rpms and putting
enough load on the engine to stabilize EGT's. Needed something more fool
proof. During my second trip for engine work to Mark Smith's in Mt. Vernon,
IN, I trailered the Fly (w/o wings) to allow an engine run-up following the
engine work. After fiddling with the Ivo pitch settings and watching the
gauges, his advice was to try a new prop. He didn't think the Ivo was
putting enough load on the engine at higher rpms, resulting in high EGT's.
We put the TN 66x30 on and noted an increase in prop blast (~thrust),
better EGT's, and I liked the sound a lot better...more of a
growl. Performance-wise, it seems to make more thrust while flying too. I
don't usually see how fast I can go, but routinely cruise around at 55 mph
at about 4500 rpm. Now maybe my max rpms are a little low (about 5750),
but that's the trade off I'm living with presently. She still climbs like
a homesick angel, and I haven't had an engine out or scored a piston in
about 100 hrs, so that's where I'm at right now. I probably need to
explore using more streamlined lift struts :-) (got an extra set?) before
exploring how fast I can get mine to go.
P.S. I'm looking at Powerfin props now too. Eventually would like to get
those max rpms up and keep the thrust I have with the TN prop...always
experimenting...gotta sell something else first though...know anyone
looking for a used whitewater kayak?
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Don G. - Prop size on Firefly |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Your current setup is probably quite safe, but the engine is not making
peak horsepower. If you are satisfied with that, good - you are not
actually giving up as much as you think you are. As long as the engine
readily accelerates up to it's maximum rpm with no bogging, moaning or
hesitation at any place in the mid range, it's probably OK.
Streamlining the lift struts will help, so will streamlining the landing
gear struts.
For an insight into the need for a good prop load on the engine, see
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg11.htm
2 blade props do sound better, don't they?
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 08:41 AM 9/20/05 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Mark Anliker <manliker@uiuc.edu>
>
>
> >Time: 04:30:07 PM PST US
> >From: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
> >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Prop size//firefly
> >Hey Mark..
> >
> >Did you Fly that Firefly prior to the 66x 30 with any other prop?...if so,
> >what size and tell me what the difference was in performance...
> >Don Gherardini
>
>Don,
>
>I used a 60" Ivo before. After 3 engine outs and 1 scored piston I decided
>to try something else. I never knew what was the correct pitch and number
>of blades to get a happy balance between getting adequate rpms and putting
>enough load on the engine to stabilize EGT's. Needed something more fool
>proof. During my second trip for engine work to Mark Smith's in Mt. Vernon,
>IN, I trailered the Fly (w/o wings) to allow an engine run-up following the
>engine work. After fiddling with the Ivo pitch settings and watching the
>gauges, his advice was to try a new prop. He didn't think the Ivo was
>putting enough load on the engine at higher rpms, resulting in high EGT's.
>We put the TN 66x30 on and noted an increase in prop blast (~thrust),
>better EGT's, and I liked the sound a lot better...more of a
>growl. Performance-wise, it seems to make more thrust while flying too. I
>don't usually see how fast I can go, but routinely cruise around at 55 mph
>at about 4500 rpm. Now maybe my max rpms are a little low (about 5750),
>but that's the trade off I'm living with presently. She still climbs like
>a homesick angel, and I haven't had an engine out or scored a piston in
>about 100 hrs, so that's where I'm at right now. I probably need to
>explore using more streamlined lift struts :-) (got an extra set?) before
>exploring how fast I can get mine to go.
>
>P.S. I'm looking at Powerfin props now too. Eventually would like to get
>those max rpms up and keep the thrust I have with the TN prop...always
>experimenting...gotta sell something else first though...know anyone
>looking for a used whitewater kayak?
>
>
Message 4
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
Thinking again about the video of the ultralight crash into the trees. Made three
tests on my Kolb UltraStar, performing 180 degree turns after 'engine out'
on take off. The idea was to get a 'no turn below this altitude' figure for
safely returning to the runway.
In climb attitude and speed, the throttle was suddenly closed and the nose quickly
lowered to maintain 50 mph. Straight ahead for 5 seconds to get one's wits
working, and a coordinated turn was begun, maintaining 50 mph. Turned 180 degrees
and altimeter indicated 200 feet loss in altitude. Repeated three times
with same results. Lesson learned for the UltraStar, don't do it under 300
feet, for a conservative, safe return. Otherwise, straight ahead or minor right
or left turns. Can't say these figures hold for any other model Kolb.
With a dead engine, no windmilling prop at idle speed, I could probably reduce
my minimum altitude safely to 250 feet, as the glide is a little better under
those conditions.
UltraStar
Tenn.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Don G. - Prop size on Firefly |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Thx Mark,
your experiences seem kinda similiar to me.
I used a 60 inch 3 bladed IVO on both ther Cuyuna and the 447...but always
had to fly with one eye on the EGT...performance was good I thought..but,
the FireFly performance is alwqys good when compareing it to others. One day
I discovered some crack/fracture line showing uop in one blade of the
IVO..(Probably a result of it being bent over one time when it was upside
down!)..anyway, I took one blade off and re-pitched it. With the little
carpenters level i had in the box..I had the 3 blade set at 11 degrees, and
was getting 6400rpms static...with 2 blades, I needed a tad better than 15
degrees to load it down to 6400. That is where it is now. To my suprise, it
climbed noticably better and gained almost 10 mph on top end...Dont know if
I understand exactly why, as using the load to hold the engine rpms seems
the thrust would be the same...but of course pitch speed is different.
Anyway, I havent questioned the results as I am pretty happy with it, but
just looking at an IVO it does not look like it would be the most efficient
blade, so I am always wondering if there still is some better performance
numbers to be had!!!
I would like more Rpms than you are getting...maybe a 64 x30 would be the
ticket...or 63..or 62..or 61....arghh...cant afford all those!!!!!!
Don Gherardini
FireFly 098
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Don G. - Prop size on Firefly |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Mark...Dont fool around with streamline plastic covers...just build a single
strut for each side from streamlined tubing....I flew mine in all 3
configs...stock round tubes...streamlined covers...and single streamline
tubeing struts...the singles make a world of diff, and are lighter.
Look at my mod page and see how I did it....very easy.
Don Gherardini
FireFly 098
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Message 7
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ed Chmielewski" <edchmiel@mindspring.com>
Lengthy post, delete as required...
Dave,
" There's plenty of room in flying for differing technique.
(Snip) ... and a power-on approach on a relatively standard glide path is
one of them. "
Unfortunately, you've missed my point. The standard approach you
speak of is fine for most GA aircraft, but that doesn't work - safely - for
high-drag, low-inertia aircraft like ultralights. Judging by my recent
mail, other UL pilots emphatically agree.
" Light single engine aircraft are expected to fly patterns at most
busy airports in a manner where most of the pattern is not within gliding
distance of the runway."
I think I've located the problem.... Most of the airports I've
trained at are busy but most of the pilots, and especially the controllers,
don't 'expect' such an unsafe operation.
"I do believe you are teaching a dated method."
Just trying to teach what's safe. Hadn't heard it went out of
style. I see students 'in the pattern' on 2-mile finals in 150's and 172's
constantly, because their instructors overstate the 'stabilized' mantra and
lose sight of the big picture. I find it best to teach a little tighter
approach at first, then widen out as needed. Almost impossible to retrain
the guys who log X-C while in the pattern.
"A 2-3 degree glide path is not a shallow dragged in approach."
It is for an ultralight.
"I can't imagine an FAA inspector pulling the engine on someone
flying a Cessna 172 at 1/2 mile when the plane is on the VASI. Would the
plane make it to the threshold - probably not."
He could if it was my student. He'd be just turning in from base and
didn't have full flaps yet, because the runway hadn't been 'made'. Still
enough energy to raise the partial flaps and glide in 'clean'. Old, dated
technique in one of my outmoded manuals somewhere.
"And yes, I've flown all those types of aircraft."
Very good, you're to be commended. I have no gyro time. Will it
glide in dead-stick 2 miles from 800' AGL?
"If you want to fly a dive at the ground, full flaps, idle approach,
be my guest."
Not what I said, so again please don't put words in my mouth.
Depends on the aircraft. You should know a Boeing, Piper, Grob motorglider
and Kolb all get flown differently.
"...there are also quite few new and low time pilots who can profit
from the accumulated knowledge of many aviators over many years."
Well said. I hope they heed a consensus of the aviators here, but
especially the high-time UL aviators who've had engine-outs and know whereof
they speak. What works in a Boeing or Beechcraft doesn't necessarily work
in a Kolb.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
----- Original Message -----
From: "David L. Bigelow" <dlbigelow@verizon.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Kwit
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David L. Bigelow"
> <dlbigelow@verizon.net>
>
> Ed,
>
> There's plenty of room in flying for differing technique. However, there
> are basic parameters that have been proven to work very well over the
> years, and a power-on approach on a relatively standard glide path is one
> of them. I do believe you are teaching a dated method. Light single
> engine aircraft are expected to fly patterns at most busy airports in a
> manner where most of the pattern is not within gliding distance of the
> runway. A 2-3 degree glide path is not a shallow dragged in approach. I
> can't imagine an FAA inspector pulling the engine on someone flying a
> Cessna 172 at 1/2 mile when the plane is on the VASI. Would the plane
> make it to the threshold - probably not. Is the pilot flying a safe
> stabilized approach - yes he is.
>
> And yes, I've flown all those types of aircraft. My whole point in these
> posts is to share a lifetime of accident free experience. While there are
> many high time pilots on this list who don't need a bit of help, there are
> also quite few new and low time pilots who can profit from the accumulated
> knowledge of many aviators over many years. If you want to fly a dive at
> the ground, full flaps, idle approach, be my guest. There's not much room
> for error if you choose to do it that way. Get a little slow, or round
> out a bit high, and you will experience the "Kolb Kwit". Helps sell a lot
> of replacement gear legs.
>
> Dave Bigelow
> Kamuela, Hawaii
> FS2, 503 DCDI
Message 8
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| Subject: | Flyin Driving Directions |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "skyrider2" <skyrider2@earthlink.net>
Howdy,
I sent the following message earlier this afternoon and it was returned saying
it was rejected by the Matronics Spam filter.
So I'm trying it once more:
Hi Guys,
I was just checking driving instructions to the Flyin this weekend from the
Mapquest and GoogleMap links on the TNK factory website.
They list the factory address as: 8375 Russell Dyche Hwy., London, KY but
neither mapping service recognizes this address. Anyone have detailed
directions coming from the south, say around the Knoxville, TN area?
Also, do they have any showers on site or a creek nearby? ;
) Might get a little rank after a few days in this heat.
Hoping to see all ya'll real soon.
Fly Safely,
Doug Lawton
NE Georgia & Whitwell TN
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